Here’s a quote that caught my attention in today’s headline P-I article: Boeing bosses spy on workers.
“It’s not quite indentured servitude, because you can quit, but when you look at the mortgages and car payments, especially in Seattle, you’re not exactly free,” said the surveilled former employee.
Real estate salespeople are always talking about the “intangible” benefits of home buying, especially since today’s market makes it impossible to argue for the financial benefits. What they obviously won’t talk about are the intangible detriments that come from jumping head-first into a ridiculously large loan on an overpriced home. Detriments such as being trapped in a spirit-crushing job.
(Andrea James, Seattle P-I, 11.16.2007)
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88 responses so far ↓
1
BubbleBuyer
// Nov 16, 2007 at 12:11 pm
I hardly see that as being any rational reason for buying or not buying a home. At some point you have to grow up and take responsibility in life whether it is buying a home, getting married or having kids. I guess you could stay single the rest of your life, live in a rent controlled $300 a month studio and live on unflavored Top Ramen so you can slack off whenever you choose but I think life is too short to go that route. Responsibility comes with strings and that’s just life. If you don’t like your job then find another one. End of story.
2
declinest
// Nov 16, 2007 at 12:20 pm
unpayable debt is freedom, right bubblebuyer?
“I guess you could stay single the rest of your life, live in a rent controlled $300 a month studio and live on unflavored Top Ramen”
Or you could rent a nice house that costs half as much to rent as it would be to buy and save enough money to go out to nice restaurants. meanwhile, your struggling “investor” turned landlord can pay your taxes, HOA and maybe mow the lawn. HE’S the one eating raman.
3
squidier
// Nov 16, 2007 at 12:22 pm
Life is too short not to feel free, BubbleBuyer.
Before the bubble, this was my main reason for putting off buying a home: once you do, you’re shackled to making the large payments which means having a “good” job. And it’s not always possible to “if you don’t like your job then find another one”.
And renting a home doesn’t mean one is “slacking off”, regardless of what the “real citizens” who buy homes might arrogantly think (while deep down resenting renters’ relative freedom). Perhaps there are more important things than appearing to be “acting like an adult” by being “responsible” and buying a home.
4
BubbleBuyer
// Nov 16, 2007 at 12:51 pm
I am honestly begining to wonder if a significant number of posters have serious chips on their shoulders.
declinest I don’t understand what unpayable debt is, perhaps you could explain? Last time I checked, nobody was willing to give away a house for free.
There is nothing wrong with renting and there is nothing wrong with buying as long as you live within your means in either situation. However, I still don’t understand why buying a house or getting married or having kids is to be avoided because it means you need to have a pre-determined income to support your responsibilities and / or desired quality of life.
5
explorer
// Nov 16, 2007 at 12:57 pm
You can be responsible, rent, not let your life be defined by your job or the work you must do. You can then take the money and travel. Works for me.
Not everyone can get the “dream” job or find one that is not oppressive in some way today. Even if you do, there is no company loyalty and you have more risk of losing it due to circumstance beyond your control. In fact, the vast majority will be wage slaves all their lives, regardless of education. If you can find a job you can tolerate, that is better than oppressive, IMO. THAT is the reality.
Buying a house is a calculated risk that you need to have both eyes open before jumping in with both feet. Fantasy and pink poines will dissapoint.
6
squidier
// Nov 16, 2007 at 1:02 pm
If there’s a chip on my shoulder, it won’t be there for long.
Mmmm… Doritos.
7
WestSideBilly
// Nov 16, 2007 at 1:07 pm
So… the guy was leaking info to the media (violating company policy), the company figured out who was leaking it, monitored his behavior while on public property… and the guy is complaining why? Because he’s forced to work for Boeing to pay his mortgage? Maybe he should have thought of that before getting his dumb ass fired.
I’m really having a hard time getting why people think they’re entitled to freedom to do whatever they want while working for a company, especially one with government mandated legal responsibilities.
As for the indentured servitude, I don’t buy it. Even in Seattle, it’s possible to live within your means on a salary that Boeing (and many other companies here) pay. You may not be living in a McMansion in Issaquah and driving a Porsche, but you are not going to miss a meal. If there’s an indentured servitude going on, it’s self imposed by people who think they need a new car every 3 years and a 4000 sq ft house.
8
squidier
// Nov 16, 2007 at 1:12 pm
“If there’s an indentured servitude going on, it’s self imposed by people who think they need a new car every 3 years and a 4000 sq ft house.”
Which is why I rent and drive a 1994 Toyota pickup with dog slobber all over it.
9
TJ_98370
// Nov 16, 2007 at 1:32 pm
….If there’s an indentured servitude going on, it’s self imposed….
Precisely
10
Lake Hills Renter
// Nov 16, 2007 at 1:32 pm
It is quite possible to be “grown up” and not be married or have kids (and not want either). Life is not a set path you must chose to reach some acceptable status. Life is making the choices necessary to get what you want out of it. I’ve decided that I don’t want to get married (again) or have kids, but that doesn’t make me a “slacker”. It means I have the freedom to get what I want out of life without being tied down to a family. It’s a choice I made, knowing full well the pros/cons of both sides, and I am happy with it. If you chose differently and are happy with it, then good for you. But the stereotypes and condescension are not welcome.
11
John
// Nov 16, 2007 at 1:33 pm
Home ownership is what the American dream is all about, haven’t you heard? You also must spend 3 months of your salary on an engagement ring and it’d better be diamond because it is…well you know.
12
LowRentRob
// Nov 16, 2007 at 2:03 pm
” I still don’t understand why buying a house or getting married or having kids is to be avoided”
At the risk of stating the obvious, or worse yet, sounding aggrieved, I’d like to point out that not all readers/posters on this blog are “Straight”.
I’m just sayin’…..
13
Boatboy
// Nov 16, 2007 at 2:04 pm
Home ownership maybe right for some people! Live within your means and you will be fine. I live on the water with an amazing view with my wife and child and we live on $450/month dues. Of course we bought the boat for $50k but still not bad..and we can take our home anywhere we want to go :) sqft is only 400 but we love each other!
14
AndySeattle
// Nov 16, 2007 at 2:09 pm
“If there’s an indentured servitude going on, it’s self imposed by people who think they need a new car every 3 years and a 4000 sq ft house.”
Which is why I rent and drive a 1994 Porsche with chick slobber all over it.
15
BubbleBuyer
// Nov 16, 2007 at 2:10 pm
There’s no condecension. Life is full of choices…you make yours and live with the consequences. I certainly had more disposable income during the 15 years I rented and absolutely had a whole lot less stress and free time. If you value travelling, wine, food a whole lot more than a structure and your low rent subsidizes the life style…more power to you.
My initial point is the premise that if you buy or own a home and/or need to support a family and hate your job, you are stuck there for life is a fallacy. There is no linkage if you do so within your means.
16
squidier
// Nov 16, 2007 at 2:12 pm
AndySeattle, touché. :D
17
softwarengineer
// Nov 16, 2007 at 2:47 pm
I LIKE PORSCHES TOO, BUT A 1994 ONE IS WAY TOO OLD FOR ME WITH 200K+ ON THE ODOMETER
I know, repaint it and rebuild the engine.
An old car is like an old house, at some point its cheaper to simply toss a lit match at it and get a newer one.
18
Tsuru
// Nov 16, 2007 at 2:56 pm
“Which is why I rent and drive a 1994 Porsche with chick slobber all over it.”
1994? C2 or C4? Either way, I never liked the C2 or the C4. After the Carrera line ended in 1989, 911’s lost their whole sense of style and raw performance. The C2’s and C4’s were more like boring luxury sedans - overly engineered and refined.
The best car I ever owned was my 1986 911 Carrera. There was a car that would let you know if you weren’t paying attention while driving it, let me tell you.
19
Lake Hills Renter
// Nov 16, 2007 at 2:56 pm
My apologies, BubbleBuyer. I reread your original comment and see now that I read it incorrectly.
20
Lake Hills Renter
// Nov 16, 2007 at 2:57 pm
My favorite error message today: “You are posting comments too quickly. Slow down.”
21
on topic
// Nov 16, 2007 at 4:35 pm
sure, living within your means is possible whether you rent or buy, but there are obviously higher transition costs (in time and money for most of us) associated with moving when you buy.
this doesn’t qualify as an intangible cost, though. it can be calculated in dollars using risk scenarios, so it is tangible.
considering that the average american moves ?.? times during their career, it may be worth considering what risk of higher transition costs are be associated with owning in general.
22
WestSideBilly
// Nov 16, 2007 at 4:39 pm
An old car is like an old house, at some point its cheaper to simply toss a lit match at it and get a newer one.
Most people caught in the self-imposed indentured servitude realm don’t switch cars for economic reasons. They want something new, they want something fresh, they’re bored, the neighbors got a new one, whatever. Cars typically don’t become negative value until they’re 10 years old/150,000 miles (whichever comes first), at which point the next needed repair will likely cost more than the car is worth.
From a purely economical standpoint, the best thing to do is buy a 3-5 year old one-owner car and drive it until something really major breaks. Not much fun but it’s cheap.
23
EconE
// Nov 16, 2007 at 5:12 pm
“At some point you have to grow up and take responsibility in life whether it is buying a home, getting married or having kids”
Huh…what?
Why?
I like renting above a 4 star hotel downtown.
I also like 52 weeks of vacation a year…and live within my means with no debt.
Might have a wife and kids someday…who knows…why does that matter?
Oh…and WRT Porsches…Tsuru is “somewhat right”…some of the best years were the 87-89 911’s with the G50 tranny and hydraulic clutch. I loved mine…maybe even more than the ‘96 I have now.
24
South of the Border, Canada That Is
// Nov 16, 2007 at 5:25 pm
Self-Imposed Indentured Servitude….is that not getting paid in US dollars ;-)
25
BelRenter
// Nov 16, 2007 at 6:43 pm
I think that having the freedom to leave a bad job is absolutely an argument in favor of being as financially independent as possible. For some people buying a home will not impact their financial independence. For others it will. There is a tradeoff between freedom and consumption.
26
nitsuj
// Nov 16, 2007 at 7:38 pm
“At some point you have to grow up and take responsibility in life whether it is buying a home, getting married or having kids.”
Or alternatively you could do neither or those, start your own company, have fun while calling the shots, and still be responsible.
27
Ira Sacharoff
// Nov 16, 2007 at 9:23 pm
I spent 24 years as an indentured servant working for king County government, and…it ain’t just Boeing. Cameras are everywhere, for the “employees protection” and buses not only have cameras but also sound recording, so I’d make sure that when I was talking to my wife on my cell phone, I’d be sure to use phrases like ” Death to America.”
It’s totally coincidental that I’m no longer a King County employee.
28
j
// Nov 16, 2007 at 9:25 pm
not exactly related to this post, but i got a kick out this on the yahoo front page.
http://promo.realestate.yahoo.com/most_undervalued_real_estate_markets.html
nyc, san fran, seattle undervalued??!!!
and we hear the same usual “tech, jobs, growth, blah blah blah”
29
Peckhammer
// Nov 16, 2007 at 9:40 pm
“buses not only have cameras but also sound recording”
You can video record all day long in public places, but record conversations in those same places, without permission, and you are breaking the law.
30
Ira Sacharoff
// Nov 16, 2007 at 10:14 pm
Some Metro buses do have signs that state they have cameras and are recording . It’s kind of a mixed bags. No driver wants to be assaulted, and assaults do occur. If finding the sound and visual evidence helps send somebody to jail, well…they wouldn’t qualify for a subprime loan anymore anyway…but drivers just don’t like the idea that someone who they don’t trust is watching them for their own protection.
31
economist
// Nov 16, 2007 at 11:02 pm
“However, I still don’t understand why buying a house or getting married or having kids is to be avoided because it means you need to have a pre-determined income to support your responsibilities and / or desired quality of life”
Are you serious? You’re equating procreation with a specific investment transaction? A house is just a financial asset. You don’t buy and sell kids, you just have them.
Look, for most of human history nobody owned houses because there was no such thing as private real estate ownership. There are many advanced countries today, such as Germany, where only about 1/2 of households are owners. There is nothing fundamental to human life about home ownership.
Buying a house is a financial decision that may or may not make sense based on prices, rents, your income, and your lifestyle. And it’s quite clear that buying a house makes virtually no sense for anyone, right now. In other words, not buying is being responsible, as if that weren’t obvious from the deluge of horror stories we are hearing about those who “bought” houses at absurd prices.
32
Mack McCoy
// Nov 16, 2007 at 11:21 pm
Well, that original post was quite a wild swing chasing after some curve ball in the dirt. “Homeowners forced to submit to surveillance due to extravagant spending on local homes.” Hmmm.
I suppose the reason that we allow our children to submit to drug-testing in school is that we’ve paid so much for our houses that we can’t afford their drug habits? (“I’m fine with Justin doing a little blow every weekend, but who’s gonna pay for it, and where’s the money going to come from when he has to go into re-hab? From my house payment, that’s where!”)
There are at least thirty million surveillance cameras trained on Americans today. If you’ve just come to the conclusion that this sort of surveillance is somehow a violation of civil rights, you’re late to the party. And if you think it’s fine and reasonable behavior, that’s your privilege, too. But declaring the notion that Americans submit to surveillance because they’ve overpaid for houses … the blogs here typically are more credible than that, aren’t they?
33
rose-colored-ghoulaid
// Nov 17, 2007 at 12:35 am
Way off base again, Mack. Tim was pointing out an example of people finding themselves in the old ‘Golden Handcuffs’; keeping a higher paying job they hate because they’re accustomed to the pay check.
If you can pay all your necessities for $40,000 annual, there are quite a number of jobs available, and maybe some of them will even be fun. If not, you keep working at Microsoft or Boeing.
34
The Pat
// Nov 17, 2007 at 1:36 am
I am shocked, shocked I tell you, that sales people would focus on the positive. It’s almost like they are in sales or something.
Perhaps every real estate ad should lead with a boldface disclosure: “WARNING. PURCHASING REAL ESTATE MAY MEAN YOU HAVE TO KEEP EMPLOYED”
35
Bitterrenter
// Nov 17, 2007 at 2:15 am
What we have here is a classic struggle between the two groups. The people happy with our system of production, consumption, consumerism and materialism, in short, the American capitalist model. Then there are those who feel there must be more to life. To which they’re told, “No, there isn’t. Now get out there, conform and strap yourself to the yoke. Buy yourself lots of stuff, have some kids, save lots of money and then die.”
That’s success in America.
36
NotaBull
// Nov 17, 2007 at 8:32 am
“What we have here is a classic struggle between the two groups. The people happy with our system of production, consumption, consumerism and materialism, in short, the American capitalist model. Then there are those who feel there must be more to life. To which they’re told, “No, there isn’t. Now get out there, conform and strap yourself to the yoke. Buy yourself lots of stuff, have some kids, save lots of money and then die.”
This is perhaps the best post I’ve read all day. I just woke up, but that’s beside the point. It’s still a good post.
What you say is very true. I think it comes down to this “universal values” thing, which basically says that “if it’s good for me, it’s good for everyone”. So if having kids, buying a house, and working in the same job for 20 years is what the majority does, then the minority is “wrong” and just doesn’t get it.
Ultimately, if having kids and buying a house is what you want to do, then do it. If renting a house and having kids is what you want to do, then do it. If you don’t want to have kids, then don’t. If living in a trailer down by the river is what you want to do, go ahead. I wish people would stop giving a crap about what everyone else does, and could get on with their life without the constant validation that their choices are the right choices, by cajoling everyone onto the same path.
37
wreckingbull
// Nov 17, 2007 at 9:34 am
Not buying in this overpriced market has allowed me live like both a child and an adult simultaneously… not unlike the wave-particle duality.
I am able to max out my 401K and invest a sizable chunk of my remaining income in a diversified portfolio. (Adult) I am also able to do things like enjoy year-round boating, go out on the town whenever I feel like it, and sleep well at night (Child).
What a horrible lifestyle us bitter renters live…
38
curioser
// Nov 17, 2007 at 9:56 am
Wild wierd tangent…
Article headline:
“Deutsche Bank Foreclosures Tossed Out of Ohio Federal Court - “They Own Nothing!””
http://preview.tinyurl.com/34u5zt
I’m not sure I understand exactly what’s going on, or what exactly the end implications of such a case are, but it’s cerainly, well um, curious.
dp
39
Matthew
// Nov 17, 2007 at 10:19 am
I work with a guy that owns a mortgage on a town house in a suburb of Tacoma (purchased this year). He commutes to Seattle and says that if he isn’t on I-5, driving past Federal Way by 5:30, that he is usually stuck in traffic.
The builder of his town house couldn’t sell the remaining units, and slashed the price by 30k. They couldn’t sell them after dropping the price to 270k from 300k, and are now renting them out.
The guy I work with is so pissed off all day long due to his commute. He told me that if he could sell his house and just break even right now he would do it in a heartbeat. The guy is absolutely miserable. The sad thing is, he is anticipating that he house is only going to drop in value the next couple of years, and has succomed to the fact that he is going to have to live there for at least 5 years if not longer.
But hey, now is a great time to buy! I love my 10 min WALK to work and extra 1000 dollars (saved by renting) in my pocket every month that I have been using to short the builder and financial stocks. My gains on shorting CFC alone are almost enough for a down payment!!
40
jcsc
// Nov 17, 2007 at 11:50 am
I find this idea that it is “responsible” to increase your carbon footprint by buying a big house and having kids to be a very strange opinion for the Seattle community. People make sacrifices for their children, but other people make sacrifices for their ecological ideals. How many people who convey the mythology of adulthood really understand the J shaped popuation curve and its ramifications? The statistical relationship between population density and both violence and environmental degredation is well documented. Read Freakonomics, Collapse, and anthropology whatsoever?
41
declinest
// Nov 17, 2007 at 12:04 pm
“But hey, now is a great time to buy! I love my 10 min WALK to work and extra 1000 dollars (saved by renting) in my pocket every month that I have been using to short the builder and financial stocks. My gains on shorting CFC alone are almost enough for a down payment!!”
that’s awesome, good work.
42
Bitterrenter
// Nov 17, 2007 at 2:50 pm
Seattle is not much different from any other place, ideologically. The “progressives” are just more vocal, that’s all. The dominant paradigm is still more more more consume consume consume or be a loser loser loser. Same thing here in Portland. Carbon footprint, carbon schmootprint.
The sooner we realize that the darker side, the meaner side, the wrong side always wins, the sooner we just stop trying to head off the inevitable. The “sustainability” movement is just fairy tales where we convince ourselves that we can go on as we always have but as long as we recycle ( a losing proposition), drive a Prius and use triple pane windows and insulation in our 5000 sf condos all will be well.
Communism was a better, more humane system. It lost out to the more savage capitalism. Liberalism is without a doubt the more humane system and has largely lost to conservatism. The same will happen to the “simplicity” movement. Materialism will win and in a very big way. The impulses behind the wrong side are much stronger, more visceral than the more highly developed, altruistic intents.
I gave up a few years ago. No more recycling, no more conservation. All it does is encourage the people with the money to consume my share and that of forty others. Oh, ok, I’ll turn the water off while I shave to save that gallon of water a month. Then my wealthier neighbors will take that gallon and 799,999 more and use it to water their azaleas next August. I could walk to the store to save 1/16 gallon of gas so that some greedy republican can use it in a split to second to power his jet as he flies to San Francisco for dinner. Um, no.
I shudder whenever I even hear the word sustainability, knowing full well it has become just another way for capitalists to sell their wares to the public. Hardly a sustainable endeavor.
43
Ira Sacharoff
// Nov 17, 2007 at 3:25 pm
When I was buying my first house 21 years ago it was clearly with mixed feelings. Despite the feelings of satisfaction and joy of homeowning, I also felt the dread of being shackled to the job for eternity.
44
Ira Sacharoff
// Nov 17, 2007 at 3:29 pm
Bitterrenter,
I hear you. Sustainability doesn’t bother me nearly as much as the phrase “world class”, which local politicians like to bandy about. It’s a world Class sculpture park, it’s a world class light rail system, the automated commodes in downtown Seattle are “world Class”. To me it just means they’re trying to displace poor and middle class people or at least make them hide.
45
Gentle Communist
// Nov 17, 2007 at 4:19 pm
Yes, who doesn’t miss the way Pol Pot humanely reduced the carbon footprint of his nation?
Consume as much as you can so the “greedy” won’t get it? I guess simple greed wasn’t ugly enough.
46
christiangustafson
// Nov 17, 2007 at 4:52 pm
Who’s to say you can’t lead a grown up life while renting? I currently rent and have the luxury of having my wife stay at home with my daughter (day-care is evil). I max out 401K, manage my savings and investments, and raise a decent garden each year. Child #2 is due in April, and we will not even think of buying a house until price/income ratios have returned to their historical norms.
That’s 2009 at the earliest, and my wife and I are on the same page here. Although she does not share my zest for following the housing/credit bubble (since 2004), she agrees with me about the problem, and is fine nesting in a rented SFH.
Instead of worrying about an adjusting ARM and the neighbors going REO, we’re enjoying life and raising our kids. Life is sweet debt-free.
47
Eleua
// Nov 17, 2007 at 7:53 pm
Christiangustafson,
Amen! brother. Debt free is the way to be.
BTW, more meat on the WM and C bones. AMZN is about to take a huge dump. See you on the Ticker.
48
Michael Long
// Nov 17, 2007 at 9:23 pm
“Communism was a better, more humane system”.
Stalin - 20,000,000 dead in the Gulag
(Chechen, Germans, Ukrainians and non-Russian ethnic minorities slaughtered by the hundreds of thousands.)
Mao - 20,000,000 dead in the Cultural Revolution
Pol Pot - 2,000,000 dead
If you took Palestine, Argentina under Pinochett and every other “Capitalist crime” it would not approach a fraction of the body count of communism. Do the math. Ten people died under Communism for every one that died under Capitalism in the 20th century. If you don’t believe me look up the map of 20th century genocide published by National Geographic and then place the dead into types of government.
Communism was simply fascism with a better PR department. I have a hard time understanding people that think replacing a small all powerful class of business men with a small all powerful class of government bureaucrats is going to make everything such a utopia. I am for an open market meritocracy backed by government micro investment of the type that has made improvement in Brazil. I want to socialize opportunity in an open market and enforce the law against big business.
49
Bitterrenter
// Nov 17, 2007 at 11:51 pm
Yeah, with a 50% poverty rate Brazil is Utopia.
The winners write the history books and only the ones we’re allowed to see. Every time someone enumerates the dead under communism the numbers go up to the point of farce. I’ll bet they had the same propaganda in reverse.
But isn’t it funny how we forget those horrible communist genocides as soon as they decide to play by our rules and adopt capitalism? China is still communist. Did we conveniently forget that now that they finance our debt, produce our cheap crap and plan to play nice with the other capitalists? What about Russia? Did they all of a sudden stop being bad genocidal maniacs when the wall fell? And Vietnam, within in the last 3 years granted special trading status with the US. Did they stop their wild-eyed commie slaughter or do we look the other way since we can make a buck off of them?
No, those things were made up to make them look less than human, that is, until they agree to participate in the capitalist greedfest that we approve of. The “millions” killed for supposed ideological reasons are pure fiction. It’s almost ridiculous at this point. It’s like when racists ascribe all sorts of inhuman traits to blacks or Mexicans. Or how xtians demonized homosexuals. The more outrageous the lie the better. And that’s just what they are- lies to bolster an opposing belief.
50
A
// Nov 18, 2007 at 12:19 am
Bitterrenter, what is your source to state that comunism was a more humane system? Theoretical comunism was never achieved so I don’t understand your remark.
51
christiangustafson
// Nov 18, 2007 at 12:35 am
Please, guys, just read von Mises Socialism, followed by some Gulag Archipelago. There is simply no excuse whatsoever to apologize for socialism in the 21st century. Hard experience shows that collectivism leads to famine and the gallows, except in the minds of the soft-headed hard Left of Seattle.
Wasn’t there a candidate for the City Council this past election who had all kinds of nice things in his bio to say about Chavez? It’s nice to see that Lefties still appreciate a good strongman.
Actually, I’m so tired of the Left these days because they are so anti-intellectual. They have no coherent ideas whatsoever, only a raw thirst for power.
52
squidier
// Nov 18, 2007 at 1:03 am
Communism works if people are selfless.
53
notabull
// Nov 18, 2007 at 6:50 am
“Communism works if people are selfless.”
Exactly. I’m sure if everyone had the “good of the people” in mind, then they’d all work hard, share a common set of values, and it could truly be utopia.
But this is just not reality. I don’t think that evolution got us this far by being entirely selfless. Ultimately, it’s about me, my genes, and spreading them. When there is no comparative difference between living standards between two families, and no *ability* to increase one’s standard of living above the neighbors, people just stop giving a "chocolate".
54
Bitterrenter
// Nov 18, 2007 at 9:43 am
People expressed the same ignorance towards democracy when living under the feudal system. “How can you have a country where everyone is equal? Why, that’s insanity! Some people MUST control the wealth and the rest must pay homage to them! After all, the Greek empire fell and they had a democracy. Democracy doesn’t work!”
And in ancient Egypt, where one guy had all the money and everyone else died building him a pyramid, I’ll bet they couldn’t imagine a system were everyone had opportunity instead of a life of labor honoring that one guy with all the wealth.
Talk about anti-intellectual.
55
squidier
// Nov 18, 2007 at 11:18 am
The point I was trying to elegantly make was that by no means are all people selfless and therefore communism can’t work: at least with groups of people comprised of more than one person. ;)
The novel “Drop City” illustrates that even if a bunch of hippies get together on some land “off the grid” and with the best hairy armpitted intentions, it still falls apart.
It’s a moderately entertaining book:
http://www.amazon.com/Drop-City-T-C-Boyle/dp/B0009YARGY/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1195409760&sr=8-1
56
Alan
// Nov 18, 2007 at 11:21 am
Democracy is a political system.
Capitalism/Free Market is an economic system.
Communism is an economic and political system.
Maybe some day we will be able to gather enough data and build accurate enough models that communism will become a workable system. I don’t think we are at that point yet.
The USA has only been around a little over 200 years. We don’t have conclusive evidence that this system will stand the test of time. It may be unstable and collapse back into something resembling feudalism.
Mussolini envisioned a system where industry and business were merged in a consolidation of power that would stand for a thousand years. He used an analogy of a stick being easily broken by it self, but many sticks bundled together were strong enough to build a bridge. A bundle of sticks tied together is called a “fascio” in Italian. He called his system facism.
57
A
// Nov 18, 2007 at 11:30 am
Bitterrenter,
I highly recommend you to speak to people from ex-communist countries. Your image is very distorted.
58
just_checking
// Nov 18, 2007 at 12:31 pm
On a side note, anyone from here perusing/commenting on Ms. Rhodes’s ST blog ?
http://blog.seattletimes.nwsource.com/elizabethrhodes/
59
christiangustafson
// Nov 18, 2007 at 2:32 pm
You fools. Read von Mises’s book Socialism. There is simply no excuse any more for a serious person to say such things about Communism, that, oh gee, it hasn’t been tried, if only people were angels, hazy crap like that. Grow up.
No markets? No prices. No possibility of economic calculation and decision making among a world of possible ends. No possibility of running a modern society, through central command and control. No freedom, no liberties, no rights. Oh, and yes, it has been tried. QED.
I’ve drunk my fill of Karl Marx over the years. If you socialist apologists were serious people, you would read the literature that challengers your errant point of view.
I’m sorry to get so miffed, but a discussion like this is just so childish. Communism is right up there with German National Socialism as horrid, murderous 20th century ideologies. There is simply no excuse to make excuses any longer. None whatsoever.
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Bitterrenter
// Nov 18, 2007 at 3:04 pm
The definition of anti-intellectual is believing your ideas are the only ones valid and that nothing else merits discussion.
Because you read it in a book makes it fact? Sure, go read Dianetics and become a Scientologist.
And why simply speak to people who left communist countries? Why not go talk to Russians still there, a large percentage who pine for the communist system? Go to Cuba and talk to the millions of people who are perfectly content. Better yet, travel around this country and ask the growing underclass how they feel about our system. Hell, just go to Michigan, talk to the guys who used to make 50K in good union jobs who are now folding clothes next to their wives working at WalMart for $5.15 an hour.
Socialism will make a dramatic comeback within our lifetimes, bolstering the socialism already in place that makes American capitalism palatable. Without the little we have left (remnants of a major injection of socialism added in the 1930s) we would have become rabidly socialist already.
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christiangustafson
// Nov 18, 2007 at 3:38 pm
No, the example of anti-intellectual is a group like moveon.org that refuses to state what its core beliefs actually are. All it does is tear at its enemies and yearn for power. Old school lefties used to read economics and be very engaging, but the New Left raised since the 60s would rather deconstruct and distract from any real discussion. The Left is dead today.
A book like Socialism should be required for all you sentimental lefty DSA types. It is a classic of 20th c political economy, must reading for anyone taking up the subject. An honest socialist needs to explain how he will solve the basic problems of economic calculation and decision making. (hint: markets do pretty well) Von Mises understood the fundamental contradictions involved in making societies like the USSR work, and he was correct that the experiment would fail in time.
Your elements of socialism injected in the 30s, and added to in the 60s, will bankrupt this country if they are actually maintained.
Back to the Housing Bubble, the problem with lending in the past decade is that it has been fully free of constraints. If we are to live in a floating fiat-currency world, we have to have some controls on the creation of debt and money. Otherwise, banks can issue IO ARMs that bid up the prices of RE and create inflation and systemic risk.
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Beer n pain pills
// Nov 18, 2007 at 3:49 pm
“The definition of anti-intellectual is believing your ideas are the only ones valid and that nothing else merits discussion.”?
I thought the definition of anti-intellectual was a hostility or mistrust of intellectuals and intellectual pursuits.
Of course, I read it in a book, so that makes it suspect right there.
Go Hawks.
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John
// Nov 18, 2007 at 3:54 pm
People are perfectly content in Cuba? So many of them have already left for America. It’s like saying those in Iran and North Korea are content too. Below $10/hr sucks for you but it is much better than what these people earn back home. People will keep risking their lives to move to the western civilization if it means they will make a better living.
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Chris
// Nov 18, 2007 at 4:03 pm
“You can slack off whenever you choose but I think life is too short to go that route. Responsibility comes with strings and that’s just life.”
So, are you saying that you have shouldered these responsibilities (kids, mortgage, stable job) and that despite the pressures you are happier overall because of it? It surprises me that your original statement seems so lacking in happiness. I would have expected something more like, “I took on the responsibilities, but everytime I come home to my comfortable house, my kind wife, my charming kids, its worthwhile.”
Instead, your statement seems a little resentful. As in “I took on all these responsibilties, and now my life is hard, and anyone who doesn’t share my suffering is a freeloading slacker.” That’s not a very compelling case. It makes it sound like those who avoided your situation were wise to do so.
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Alan
// Nov 18, 2007 at 4:36 pm
I just read this interesting comment on slashdot.
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=364309&cid=21400783
China proves that Fascism, not Socialism, works. China is a vindication of everything the post-Socialist Fascist movement thought was in need of change in Socialist ideology to make it work. As a result, China has many of the benefits of capitalism, but has the state control of the means of production that Socialism provides. If it’s mostly high-ranking aparatchiks and military officers who own most of the corporations in China, it is only semantically different from the corporation, known as the “Communist State” in China, from owning it in its name.
Of course this would be a surprise to the morons who think that Fascism is just a dirty word you throw at someone you disagree with. Most people forget that Fascism was a movement with a clear-cut platform, that was a true hybrid of Socialism and Capitalism. It is “right-wing” in the sense that it is “to the right of Socialism and Communism.” It is, in essence, where the “left and right” meet up on the spectrum. If you look at the Fascists’ planks, you will see that they had many left-wing tendencies, such as seizing the war profits of the military industrial complex, heavy taxation of income, and strong government **control** of the means of production through counsels of industry and regulations.
Communism is utopian. It is built on 19th century pseudo-science, and it ought to be no more respectable to be a Communist than to be a Phrenologist.
I am not surprised at China doing this. It make perfect sense from the economic nationalism of Fascist policy.
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realtorcheck
// Nov 18, 2007 at 4:57 pm
Where is Tim today? You don’t suppose he is out househunting?
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synthetik
// Nov 18, 2007 at 6:08 pm
Rain City Guide mentioned on Mish
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2007/11/its-not-different-in-portland-and.html
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Roger
// Nov 18, 2007 at 6:14 pm
Hey guys, can we talk about religion next? Maybe sex after that.
Y’all realize you’re pissing into the wind? No one cares what your political beliefs are, no one cares which sky father you believe in, and no one cares who you sleep with. Take it to Kos or Freeper, eh?
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squidier
// Nov 18, 2007 at 7:44 pm
For me, it’s all Flying Spaghetti Monster. RAmen.
(We could mix the religion and sex topics together to save time if you’d like, Roger.)
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jon
// Nov 18, 2007 at 9:29 pm
“Back to the Housing Bubble, the problem with lending in the past decade is that it has been fully free of constraints.”
The problem is a lot more specific. The CDO instruments have something called a “liquidity put” that allowed the buyers of the CDOs to dump them back on the investment banks. The banks didn’t figure that risk in correctly or report it adequately.
http://blog.pmarca.com/2007/11/if-this-is-true.html
71
Bitterrenter
// Nov 18, 2007 at 11:00 pm
Yo Roger,
Nobody forces you to read the posts, a-hole. There’s always one or two like you who think they get to play post critic.
PS to John. Only the truly deluded believe everyone wants to move here and that in other countries the people sit around fantasizing of being just like America.
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Roger
// Nov 18, 2007 at 11:39 pm
Hey bitterrenter, I really don’t care one way or the other–other than there are a million places on the internet where people hash this “libs vs. thugs” stuff out all day, every day–those tired arguments are not what make this blog interesting.
Is “a-hole” lower than any (or all) of “lib,” “lefty,” “fascist,” “pink pony,” or “sub-prime?” I like to know where I stand.
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John
// Nov 18, 2007 at 11:40 pm
Bitterrenter, where did I say everyone wants to move to America? Learn to read, pal. I said “western civilization”. You see all those Africans moving to France and the Eastern Europeans moving west? If you don’t like capitalism, move to Cuba. You are going to continue to be bitter if you stay in a place you hate.
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bitterowner
// Nov 18, 2007 at 11:49 pm
Re: Jon’s comment on liquidity puts: “The banks didn’t figure that risk in correctly or report it adequately”
The question is how could they not? It seems either intentional or negligent to overlook the severity of these obvious risks.
Also, might it be possible for us to contain the “blog rage”?
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Bitterrenter
// Nov 19, 2007 at 12:01 am
They’re moving to Western civilization? Wow, I guess those billions of Asians are total losers, huh? So is Mexico NOT western civilization? Why are they leaving? Could it be poverty brought on by uncontrolled capitalism and the feudalistic systems in their own countries? Perhaps they just need a little socialism, the kind that made those western civilizations land of opportunity.
And really, resorting to the “love it or leave it” thing? How pedestrian.
We’re all bitter here. That’s why you come to a blog that cheerleaders for the collapse of the Seattle housing market.
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A
// Nov 19, 2007 at 12:25 am
Tim,
Will you offer some communist treatment to Bitterrenter and moderate his posts(= delete them)?
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Bitterrenter
// Nov 19, 2007 at 1:06 am
A,
The motivations behind capitalism are the darkest, basest instincts in humans. Conservative theorists talk of “harnessing man’s inherent greed” for things like technological advancement, (read increased productivity and enriching the individual often at others’ expense.) Exploiting envy to raise competition. Think only of yourself and what YOU can extract from a situation. Deceive, lie, cheat and steal, just make money, as much money as you can and don’t give a second thought as to how you made it. That describes the mortgage loan mess. It’s a cheater’s culture. Cheating is so tempting and even encouraged because the rewards are so great in a system like ours. Sell those bad loans. Sell as many as you can. The Wall Street types will make billions and we’ll be left holding the bag and dealing with the aftermath. That’s the capitalists’ story and their frontmen are the conservatives/republicans.
Was socialism perfect? No, but at least their goals were more noble, if ours were at all. They found that working together did work. Who got to space first? The “commies”. They did it by cooperating. They didn’t do it like the capitalists where they hide any developments that might improve society until they can issue an IPO to make billionaires of themselves. When we created the space program is was cooperative process between many entities-corporations, universities, the military- overseen by the federal government, almost socialist was the structure. How do you think it would have worked out with corporations working separately in secret? Communist weapons were more advanced too. We played catch up and adopted their way of creating military technology, by working together.
Cooperation is more humane. Competition is savage.
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Denny Retrograde
// Nov 19, 2007 at 3:19 am
Ouch - what happened on my beloved Seattle Bubble today?
For some reason this post inspired a comment thread with the worst signal-to-noise of 2007. What is this, a P-I “Soundoff” thread, fer crissakes? Blech.
79
old timer
// Nov 19, 2007 at 10:00 am
We have begun the long slide into the “holidays’.
It brings out the fears in so many.
Look for all to become increasingly irritated and irritaitng.
80
softwarengineer
// Nov 19, 2007 at 10:06 am
I’M WITH YOU DENNY
The root problem facing America on almost all its problems is “overpopulation” on Earth and just like good ole Martin Luther King Jr said 40 years ago:
” Unlike plagues of the dark ages or contemporay disease we do not understand, the modern plague of overpopulation is soluble by means we have discovered and with resources we possess. What is lacking is not sufficient knowledge of the solution but universal consciousness of the gravity of the problem and education of the billions who are its victim.”
P.S. Call your King/Snohomish/Pierce county public schools and ask them why “overpopulation” isn’t in the world history curriculam anymore [I did and they never returned my call].
They’ve turned a scientific fact into a phony race hatred politics issue. We fired the proposed director of Immigration Customs Enforcement (ICE), because she wore a striped jail suit costume on Halloween. This country’s misuse of of politically correct in the false name of racism is completely off the sanity meter.
81
The Whores of the Media
// Nov 19, 2007 at 10:46 am
No cheating in the communist system? No cheating in socialism? Bribes and corruption don’t count as cheating? Giving the foreman a basket of fresh bread in order to be assigned to a better job is not cheating?
In socialism/communism, the needs of many outweigh the needs of the one. In capitalism, the needs of the one outweight the needs of the many. Individualism will always win out. People make decisions in their best interest.
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Ira Sacharoff
// Nov 19, 2007 at 11:09 am
One only slightly relevant riddle:
What’s the difference between communism and capitalism?
Under capitalism, it’s dog eat dog. Under communism, it’s just the opposite.
83
John
// Nov 19, 2007 at 11:28 am
Bitterrenter, hundreds of millions are living in poverty in China. And let’s not even talk about North Korea. Things that make you so bitter about America, the $6/hr wage for one, is paradise to them. In cities like New York, people are already giving 50% of their paychecks to the government. How much more do you want to fund your socialism? The government can tax 90% but if they don’t have a plan, it will all be going down the drain like it is now over there.
You are in the realtors camp if you think everyone is bitter here. Many are renting and saving more money than if they were to buy. Does someone become bitter if he is getting a good deal?
84
Lake Hills Renter
// Nov 19, 2007 at 11:33 am
I’m not quite seeing what this has to do with housing. I don’t suppose we can stay somewhat on theme and lose the antagonism?
85
B&W Nikes
// Nov 19, 2007 at 12:19 pm
Wow, backtracking up to first post - bubblebuyer - there are no $300 rent control apartments in the region, period. We don’t do that rent control thing here because it infringes on the rights of the market and the property owners, whatever good it might do for an old lady or a student. Anyone who thinks renting here is *cheap* probably hasn’t seen what *cheap rent* will get you for quite a while. It’s usually not pretty and they probably won’t be such a hard head on renters if they actually take a look into the real world rental options here.
Associating reduced professional mobility with the risk and obligation of an overleveraged *investment* isn’t anything you will hear from the RE hype squads caught up in the current buying panic.
Income disparity and lack of buying power of the current dollar is a strong underlying issue. It’s a reality that illustrates the validity of the service this blogsite offers as a consumer tool not propped by any commercial sources with particular agendas. (Thank you Tim, Crow, & DJO and frequenters of all stripes!)
Figuring out the causes of income disparity and declining purchasing power is untying a gordian knot, but in short hand it is the natural byproduct of lack of awareness and consciousness working in concert with many unchecked private interests using government tools to influence or control large economies. The list of examples is pretty long. Even Warren Buffet, (hardly a Wobbly, Maoist, or Trotskyite) thinks our present culture is totally off the rails with this. It ain’t a system, it ain’t a political ideology or an ism, it’s individual human beings misbehaving at every opportunity while leaving a lot of unassuming regular folks who aren’t power hungry to clean up and pay the tab after the party is over.
Best to leave the ‘my ism is better than your ism’ back where it belongs in the classroom or the tavern.
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The Bruce
// Nov 20, 2007 at 12:10 pm
“If there’s an indentured servitude going on, it’s self imposed by people who think they need a new car every 3 years and a 4000 sq ft house.”
Buy a ‘97 Land Cruiser for $12-15k in good condition, it will run 10 years longer than most new cars today, and still be worth 8-10k if you take care of it, in 10 years…
And yes, I rent, because I like to take the Land Cruiser on trips.. And as someone mentioned, life is short.. I’d rather eat and drink well than pay the bank double my rent to call my self a ‘home-debtor’ or ‘dirty renter.’ This ‘dirty renter’ will be toasting the wholesome lending industry with an ‘81 Margaux this weekend that I’d never be able to drink as a homedebtor. Cheers.
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WestSideBilly
// Nov 20, 2007 at 12:40 pm
Land Cruisers get lousy mileage. Great for road trips that involve off road excursions, though.
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Mack McCoy
// Nov 22, 2007 at 3:34 am
Happy Thanksgiving.
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