Couched in woeful tales of local residents that have been priced out of living in Seattle (buying or renting), a story in yesterday’s Seattle Times explored the question of whether an expensive Seattle is a desirable Seattle.
Can Seattle really claim to be a livable city when the median home value is half a million dollars and so many who live here feel they may not be able to anymore?
…
When asked about affordability in Seattle, the first thing Georgetown Records saleswoman Tina Forbes says is the story of so many who are disoriented and frustrated by the fast pace of change here: “I’m getting ready to leave — Portland, man!”“We just keep getting pushed farther and farther south,” Forbes says of people like her who’ve dealt with rising rents and apartments going condo, which has happened to her twice already.
…
But many of Seattle’s most die-hard devotees say they aren’t riding the prosperity trolley so much as adapting to it, holding on for dear life. That’s no way to live in a “livable” city.Here’s a sobering thought: While Seattle and King County’s technology companies continued to infuse the area with high-paid workers last year, the majority of job vacancies overall were for positions paying less than $25 an hour, barely enough for an adult with two children to achieve economic “self-sufficiency,” according to a study by the nonprofit Workforce Development Council of Seattle-King County.
Unfortunately, if you think you can escape to affordability by heading to the surrounding rural areas, a piece in Saturday’s Times might disappoint you.
“We’ve seen farmland values rise dramatically, particularly over the last couple of years,” said Mike Shelby, executive director of the Western Washington Agricultural Association, which represents local farmers.
Shelby estimates that cropland prices have jumped 30 to 50 percent over the past three years in Skagit, Snohomish and Lewis counties, a result both of a drift of people from the cities and of other social and economic changes.
You may notice that neither of these two articles talk about what’s been happening with home and land prices in the outlying areas in the last nine months. I guess prices falling back down to earth didn’t fit into the bleak picture they wanted to paint. I’m not saying Seattle is going to become as cheap as Eastern Washington, but we’re definitely on a trend back to affordability, and that’s good news worth reporting in my book.
(Tyrone Beason, Seattle Times, 05.12.2008)
(Shirley Skeel, Seattle Times, 05.10.2008)
Jump to the bottom to add your comment. ↓
75 responses so far ↓
1
Gill
// May 13, 2008 at 11:07 am
I don’t know — Seattle seems very much like the SF of yore and in my opinion is poised to expand quite dramatically even from this point.
Seattle has the educated youth, the desirable location and enough land within the city become much more dense than it already is — Just FYI, as a person who grew up in the midwest and who lived in San Diego and SF for nearly a decade Seattle has become a place to move to and live — it has a very good reputation outside of Washington. Even though good houses in good neighborhoods are selling at $500K that’s still a doable and desirable lifestyle for people coming from out of state with jobs and house-buying plans lined up. Seattle is one of the most beautiful cities in the country and people are finding that out.
I completely understand the local populations frustration with the situation but that doesn’t mean it won’t happen anyway. My wife and I moved here from SF 3 years ago with the intention to get great jobs, buy a home and settle in Seattle for 10 -15 years. We got jobs that paid as much or more than we were making in SF and have bought a house this year — there are a lot of people in the same situation as us and a lot of first-time home buyers that want to make a life here and can afford to do it.
2
Fred
// May 13, 2008 at 11:18 am
We are in a similar situation to Gill (lived in SF for years renting and have moved to Seattle) however we haven’t bought in Seattle yet.
I go back and forth on how Gill has put it. Seattle is a great city but it is definitely not SF. We moved to Seattle with the thought that it is a great city and is “affordable”. This was last year and SF was anything but affordable. As the SF area comes crashing back down to earth though I cannot say if we would want to move back and purchase a house in that area.
Personally I think that Seattle will come back down as well. In 2006 Seattle seemed very much affordable to someone from San Francisco. I have friends that live in London and the SF market that seemed outrageous to me seemed ‘affordable’ to them. I think it all really depends on perspective. Seattle will come back down to an acceptable level to locals and so will SF.
3
patient
// May 13, 2008 at 11:39 am
My wife and I just started to look for jobs elsewhere. We have very good and well paying jobs here in the high-tech industry but the combination of redicolous home prices and terrible weather is getting to us. Never ending cold/flu seasons where our kids are constantly sick and people in general are sun deprived and depressed are sacrifices tough to make even with the many goods of Seattle as jobs and schools. If it was just me it would be ok since I put high value on the outdoors around here but for a family with small kids it’s really not the paradise some make it out to be especially with the extreme cost of living that is now further accelarted by the cost of gas and food. So if we endup staying it’s due to our good jobs. I can just imagine how it is for people that are not part of the priveledged high-tech spere
4
Joe
// May 13, 2008 at 11:45 am
I am not sure moving out to the country is any better, unless you have a job in the country. A long commute on four dollar gasoline is not a great incentive to leave an urban center. Maybe the dollars and cents work out, but it will need to be a far sight cheaper in the country to account for 4 dollar gas and propane heating.
Also, I wonder what role weather may play on the real estate dynamics. If people are like us, the only reason we are here is relatively cheap real estate for a pretty cool area of the country. However, the weather here is so incredibly bad (for our taste), that if real estate eases in California, we may leave here in a heartbeat. The weather is just awful …
… which makes me wonder if weather is a factor that will always act as a something of a guard against irrational exuberance up here. There is a bubble here for sure, but it might have been a bigger bubble if the weather wasn’t so bad.
That’s just my .02 tho.
5
Gill
// May 13, 2008 at 11:48 am
You guys have good points as well, and I guess Seattle is not for everybody, of course.
It is also not SF — but the cities do have a lot of similarities. Depending on what part of SF you live in, for example, it is just as foggy/rainy/cloudy as Seattle. I also think that Seattle is on the verge of a large expansion like SF was a few decades back.
My wife and I are not planning on having kids so that’s a big difference — I can see how it would be almost as hard here as SF if we did have kids.
I don’t think our salaries are much higher than average here, but we do have 2 incomes which makes a big difference, too.
6
patient
// May 13, 2008 at 11:56 am
My thoughts are that Seattle’s expansion will come to a halt due to it’s unaffordability. I wouldn’t be surprised to see areas like for example Dallas, San Antonio, Denver, Charlotte, New Orleans etc starting to pick up steam in attracting good companies and expansion while Seattle will stagnate and possibly fade if the affordability reamins low here. A city that is unavailable and/or unattractive for families is a dying city, at least in spirit.
7
Gill
// May 13, 2008 at 11:56 am
Just to add, I guess it is all relative to what you consider affordable, too.
Our total debt is 29% of our income (including insurance, credit cards, car, mortgage, etc) so we consider that affordable. It would be nice to have our incomes go up a bit, of course!
Everyone has different standards for the ‘how much can we afford’ question.
8
Gill
// May 13, 2008 at 11:59 am
“A city that is unavailable and/or unattractive for families is a dying city, at least in spirit.”
I agree with you on a spiritual level but there are different cultures for different cities — not all of them are or have to be extremely family friendly, though they all do have to be somewhat, IMO. SF has been struggling with this for a while now –
9
economist
// May 13, 2008 at 12:01 pm
Um Gill, I think you mean debt service, unless you bought your house over 20 years ago and it’s almost paid off.
10
Gill
// May 13, 2008 at 12:06 pm
Yes, of course — i was obviously referring to our monthly debt to income ratio and not the total amount owed on the house!
11
MisterBubble
// May 13, 2008 at 12:41 pm
Seattle is a small, dreary, provincial version of San Francisco…if you look at it from a distance, squint, and engage in world-class denial.
Every time I go to SF, I feel like I’ve arrived in a city — it might not be the most “family-friendly” place in the world, but it has culture, activity, vibrancy. I can go to a world-class art museum in the morning, eat something other than Thai food in the afternoon, and run/walk in one of several massive parks in the evening. The job market is easily an order of magnitude more diverse and interesting (it’s nice to be able to work somewhere other than Microsoft and Amazon), and in general, San Francisco just feels exciting.
Then I come back here. It’s usually raining, I have to immediately re-adjust to the odd way that people won’t make eye contact, and the predominant social activities seem to be drinking coffee and complaining. Moreover, when I ask people what they like about Seattle, they usually tell me that they like “the water”, and that “it’s cheaper than San Francisco.” So far, the comments in this thread do not deviate from this trend.
I’ve never lived anywhere else where the citizens have such a pronounced tendency to compare their home to other cities. I think this says more about Seattle than I could possibly articulate in a few paragraphs. So, yes…if you’re wondering if there’s an innate quality to this place that will keep it from becoming San Francisco, I can tell you, without hesitation, that there is a huge difference: fundamentally, inevitably, Seattle is San Francisco’s consolation prize.
12
Gill
// May 13, 2008 at 12:43 pm
Misterbubble — have you ever lived in SF?
13
MisterBubble
// May 13, 2008 at 12:46 pm
One more thing. There was a fellow in my building who lived in SF for years, then moved up here, and within 6 months moved back to SF. I talked to him as he was moving out, and he summarized the situation in the most delightful way:
Obviously, I tend to agree.
14
MisterBubble
// May 13, 2008 at 12:47 pm
Gill: Yes.
15
Gill
// May 13, 2008 at 12:55 pm
“Then I come back here. It’s usually raining, I have to immediately re-adjust to the odd way that people won’t make eye contact, and the predominant social activities seem to be drinking coffee and COMPLAINING.”
Well, you’ve obviously become a good Seattlite yourself!
You really don’t see that Seattle has changed significantly towards becoming a great and cosmopolitan city the past 7 or 8 years? If so, you may be a little mired in the ‘complaining’ bit yourself.
Do yourself a favor and try going out to one of the myriad new restaurants and bars that have opened up in the past 3 years — there is now great Spanish, French and Italian cuisine here — go to the new SAM (which kicks the SF Moma’s @ss) or one of the new galleries in Ballard or Belltown — I agree SF currently is WAY more urban than Seattle, but Seattle is getting there IMO — and, yes, it costs less which means you can enjoy it more!
16
NotaBull
// May 13, 2008 at 12:56 pm
“I’ve never lived anywhere else where the citizens have such a pronounced tendency to compare their home to other cities. I think this says more about Seattle than I could possibly articulate in a few paragraphs.”
While I don’t necessarily agree with your drizzle fueled depression rant (just teasing), I agree with you in principal. I like Seattle a lot *because* it’s a smaller city and gives me more of the things I like (mountains, hiking) with less of the drawbacks of the larger city living. That’s why I moved out of the city proper.
It seems people are obsessed with Seattle’s standing, and our “place” in a list of important cities. We’re so desperate to be taken seriously. Why do we have to be like San Francisco? Why don’t we just all aspire for density like Hong Kong or Tokyo. Won’t it be *great* when there are 10 million people living downtown! No, it won’t be great.
It seems to me that if you’re obsessed with continuous and massive growth/density, you fall into one of two camps:
1) City employee, developer, or builder. Your desire here is to make something! Champion a project! Cut the ribbon! Make money on a HUGE condo building! DENSIFY!!!! DENSIFY!!!! (yes, I know that’s not a real word)
2) Local homeowner that wishes for increased density so their house becomes worth as much as a similar house in SF, so they can eventually sell and get the hell out of the nightmare of a town they wished for.
3) There is no “3″. There are only ever two types. I’ve already established that in previous threads.
17
Gill
// May 13, 2008 at 12:59 pm
BTW, MisterBubble — sorry if my post came off as a bit aggressive — no offense meant! Just disagreeing with some of your statements.
18
bubblebuyer
// May 13, 2008 at 1:05 pm
No question that San Francisco is a great city. However, the reality of living in San Francisco is very different from that of visiting. Traffic is bad, especially if you are commuting to the valley for work. You need to factor traffic into fairly much every decision you make. Seattlites whine about traffic and I laugh at them. There is also something soul destroying about living in a city where no matter what you make and how hard you work, the best you can afford is a 70’s condo in a bad part of town. I won’t even go into the excessive taxation…. The locals are engrossed in a life spent outdoing their neighbors and friends; bigger, more expensive houses, cars, clothes. Most interactions in San FRancisc are unpleasant - there are a lot of overextended stressed out people around.
As someone that recently left SF, moved to Seattle and purchased a home all I can say is I love Seattle. I don’t know where you live but I never run across depressed people. My neighbors greet me when we see each other and people in the street say good morning on my way to coffee in the morning. The neighborhoods are great. As to the summers here….an order of magnitude better than anything in San Francisco. The outdoor activites rule and are easily accessible. Yes it rains here, it is grey too. Big deal, I’ll take a trip to Hawaii mid winter next year.
No city is perfect but I find it amusing how the locals like beating up on Seattle. You pick your poisen and live with the consequences.
19
Dogboy
// May 13, 2008 at 1:10 pm
While prices in the Seattle proper will surely come down, I don’t think they will ever be “affordable” to most middle-class families (meaning households with a combined income of approximately 60-70K). But that’s really been true of just about every major urban center — Boston, NY, the western side of LA, and, of course, San Francisco. As Seattle has grown exponentially as a player in the global market, the real estate prices grow with it. If you like living in a “global hub” then you have to deal with the costs that go with that (although, as many pointed out, you certainly don’t have to deal with the weather … which, by the way, is something I very much like about Seattle). The only way Seattle is ever going to be affordable is if we return to being a sleepy northern port heavily reliant on a single industry/company.
I agree with “PATIENT” that affordability adds much to a city (because it promotes greater diversity) but to say that a lack of affordability makes it a dying city is completely wrong. Boston, NY, and San Francisco have not been affordable for decades. The fact is, just as there are a lot of people who will leave a city because they can’t buy the house they want, there are just as many people who will buy less than the house they want (or not buy at all) because they want to remain in a vibrant, urban environment.
With all that said, I’d like to throw in another issue into this conversation of affordability: the price of land has certainly gone up quite a bit but I think the rising cost of homes is driven more by the fact people want more house. It seems to me that this is an issue that just doesn’t get addressed often enough. I’m in my 40s and I, as well as most people I know, grew up in houses that are significantly smaller than some of the monstrosities being built today. I grew up in a house that was approximately 2000 SF and that was considered big. I had cousins who grew up (very comfortably) in homes that were 1200-1500 SF.
My neighborhood was upper middle-class (analogous to Bellevue’s Somerset area). We had four-bedroom house with a den, living room, formal dining room, two fireplaces, etc. It was roomy and there was more than enough space for a family of four. Here’s what we didn’t have that so many house buyers insists are “must-haves” — a “gourmet kitchen” with $6000 industrial cooktops, commercial-grade refrigerators, glass tile, etc. It didn’t have showers that came with four shower heads. There was no wired-for-sound media center. The bedrooms had enough room for a bed, a desk, a drawer because the bedroom is where you slept, did your homework, and not much else.
I don’t want to sound like grumpy old guy complaining about how kids today have it too easy. I think it’s great to have a gourmet kitchen and if I could afford a media room I would put one in. But, the simple fact of the matter is, you can’t keep complaining about the skyrocketing cost of housing until you take an inventory of your own needs and wants.
Personally, I think the idea that there is no affordable housing in the greater Seattle area is not entirely correct. More accurately, there’s no affordable housing that most people want. In the Lake City neighborhood, there are three-bedroom townhouses that go for less than $350K but families with two kids won’t consider them because so many people today just can’t imagine raising a family in a place that’s “only” 1400 SF.
20
vboring
// May 13, 2008 at 1:33 pm
Anchorage South. i like that.
it is a good point, though. if Billy G’s father had been living in Houston instead of Redmond, Seattle would probably be a quietly suffocating port town with a declining manufacturing base like Tacoma.
somehow, if that had happened i don’t think the PI would have published a story about how nice it is that the dearth of employment options had kept housing prices so low, making Seattle such a livable city.
i’ll take the good jobs and cheap rents, thanks very much.
21
Gitano
// May 13, 2008 at 1:38 pm
I am seriously thinking of moving. I am thinking of going back to the midwest. My wife is a nurse and she can make almost the same amount of $ there and we can buy a place for fifth of the price. This place has become rediculous. Better off moving and saving money and taking a vacation to seattle then live here and work your butt off and not see anything. The city used to be cool but now it is overpriced and unaffordable with hardly any sunshine. Agree it is a great place to ski, sail, museums, and great “artificial culture” but we can’t afford it. Good bye seattle!!
22
Plissken
// May 13, 2008 at 1:46 pm
families with two kids won’t consider them because so many people today just can’t imagine raising a family in a place that’s “only” 1400 SF.
My wife and I have three kids and we live in a 1200+ sq ft house. It’s not big, but it’s not cramped either. As a matter of fact one of our 4 bedrooms is empty for now. Lower square footage also equals lower utility bills and I like that a lot more than gourmet kitchens and media rooms.
23
patient
// May 13, 2008 at 2:28 pm
Dogboy, fair enough there are unaffordable cities that have not died. The reason for this however is that they have a fundation to prosper as unaffordable. California has the climate that creates a universal appeal bringing in tourism, wannabees, rich retires and rich immigrants. The same goes for the unaffordable east cost with more of a business and cultural center to attract instead of climate. I don’t think Seattle has any of that. Seattle is sustained by the working middle class and it’s appeal is much from being smaller and family friendly. Take that away and you have a dying city, imho.
24
xaos
// May 13, 2008 at 2:28 pm
MisterBubble has described Seattle perfectly. I swear, I have lived in many places across the US and I have never experienced the level of insufferable uptight provincial asses as I have met and seen here. Honestly, this place is not a world class city. You can attempt to delude yourself on this point, but I assure you Seattle falls fall short of how big it thinks it britches are.
25
b
// May 13, 2008 at 2:44 pm
I currently live in Silicon Valley and if Seattle becomes SF (which it seems the residents are trying really really hard to do, e.g. the SLUT) then most will regret it. SF is a "chocolate" city if you are not a tourist, personally I don’t think paying outrageous sums of money to live in a homeless/gangbanger cesspool is worth it for the street cred of telling your hipster friends you live in the city. As a non-native it seems to me that California is still riding off the paradise it likely was back in the 70’s, and I think SF is the same way but the 90’s instead. Today I would not consider living anywhere in the city unless it was actually cheaper than the valley.
As for the housing bubble, I think Seattle is in a serious load of trouble if prices do not come down. Places like SF, NYC and Boston can sustain long periods of expensive real estate because they were built up eons ago and have job bases that Seattle will likely never be able to match in the next 50 years. Seattle is just a city starting the transition from small to medium sized and adding in crushing real estate prices is going to (probably already is) bring that to a halt. I have lived in several areas around the country (born in Seattle) and the only people I know who have wanted to move there are either from the PNW or are from the bay area and hear its cheap and has tech jobs. I can guarantee you that if a house in Cupertino/Mountain View approaches anywhere near the same price level as one in Bellevue all of those people are going to move back in a heartbeat, it will be the early 90’s all over again: Cali bubble -> Cash out move to Seattle -> Cali bubble pops -> Cash out and move back to Cali while complaining about the "chocolate" weather.
26
GotMilk
// May 13, 2008 at 2:54 pm
Not to derail this into another rant about the Seattle FREEZE but I also agree with MisterBubble. People in Seattle are just generally not cool. Although every city has clicks of obtuse people, Seattle seems to have perfected it. You either have to devote your life to the environment…or, if you are young enough…devote yourself to the latest clothing trends. The statement may seem hypocritical but it is almost impossible to find people here with the wisdom and humility to accept shades of grey. You have to make a stand here regardless of the complexity or broadness of issues. As an example, I dare any of you to enter a starbucks and try to strike up a conversation on the morality of abortion (not the legality…which most people agree on). Even something as innocuous as saying you aren’t sure about the morality of abortion (something that noone can logically be certain about) causes a stir of resentment and people WILL turn away. You can’t really talk about anything serious here…all small talk and bs…remain boring and trite at all costs.
I do make friends with a lot of newcomers though….until they get assimilated.
27
softwarengineer
// May 13, 2008 at 3:02 pm
I’VE LIVED HERE ALL MY LIFE
Comparing the Seattle area I had in the 60s and 70s as a youth, to the cement city housing developments of today, is like comparing a controlled growth utopia to a packed LA.
I remember when Boeing headquarters was at Boeing field, not in a midwest river town. I remember when Kent valley was all farmland, then became aerospace manufacturing subcontractor plants, now MOR furniture and rug/floor/countertop storage areas. I remember in 1990, when the Seattle area had 1/5th the popualtion density than it does now, and yet, the roads were clogged back then too and it took you 2 hrs to get 20 miles home [Lord only knows how we move now].
There is something the same today as in the past Seattle, we have the same basic freeways and accesses to freeways that were built when I was a kid.
When I was a kid, my dad was a technical at Boeing, with one income and had the biggest house in the neighborhood. I was born about ten years after the Baby Boomers, so my high school class, after college, was born a bit too late for Seattle. It now took two incomes to buy about 1/2 my dad’s house. It hasn’t changed much in Seattle on housing affordability since my young adult years; and buildable land with its own freeway access ran out.in 1978.
My kids now require 4 incomes to buy 1/2 the house I could. Its mostly gloom and doom for them, especially their wages collapsing per Tim’s article. Isn’t unplanned growth history in Seattle fascinating though?
The Baby Boomers aren’t laughing either. That $1M retirement the lucky top 5% saved is like $1k/mo to retire on after taxes, while hyper-inflation with uncontrolled growth makes that $1M annuity decrease like -10% [its even worse if you're heavily into stocks]. You make about a thousand a month and lose about ten thousand a month in buying power due to hyper-inflation making your savings [and home] worth less and less, as time goes on.
At this rate, soon we’ll all be average world class globalist incomes in America, making the equivalent of $3-4K/yr [buying power] just like everyone else. Its only fair isn’t it?
28
Sniglet
// May 13, 2008 at 3:05 pm
But this doesn’t mean that SF, NYC, or Boston can’t experience significant real-estate declines. Manhattan saw 40% price declines in the early to mid-90s, and the credit bust slowly rolling through wall-street is leading it to another major downturn. Heck, they are even reporting that the Hamptons are seeing significant numbers of foreclosures, which has been unheard of.
San Francisco isn’t immune from problems either. Just look at how the hinterlands areound SF are getting hit harder and harder with the real-estate downturn. Even places like Marin and Sonoma are now seeing significant price depreciation.
The whole debate about whether Seattle is as “special” as San Francisco or New York are irrelevant since there is nothing “special” about those places to begin with, and the real-estate crash is beginning to show just that.
29
b
// May 13, 2008 at 3:19 pm
Sniglet -
I agree with you, those places have all had various bubbles blown and burst over the last 30-40 years in their real estate markets. I guess my point is that somewhere like Seattle could not sustain having extremely expensive housing over a period of 10+ years like San Francisco has managed to do, it would just kill the city outright. I think for the people who hope that Seattle will defy gravity and somehow emerge from this bubble with relatively small losses don’t realize it will mean the cities death. People move to Seattle because it has tech jobs and is cheaper than SF and Boston. If you remove the cheaper, nobody is going to move there and likely people and companies will move away instead.
30
patient
// May 13, 2008 at 3:23 pm
Sniglet and b, I agree no city is special in the sense that they can sustain an obvious price bubble driven of lax lending. However, as b points out it’s not irrelevant to discuss if Seattle has the fundation to sustain a high level of unaffordability for the average citizen as cities like SF and NYC have a proven history of doing. My take and most others here seems to be that it hasn’t.
31
EconE
// May 13, 2008 at 3:35 pm
Having lived in Manhattan, Los Angeles, Seattle, Sacramento, San Luis Obispo, Idaho, Missouri and Massachusetts all I can say is that every area has it’s own flavor of “suckitude”.
Don’t like the “freeze”? Move to the Missouri where everybody and their "golly" mother wants to know your business to see what the other extreme is.
You want superficial conversation (and even more superficial people)? Move to Los Angeles. Every brainless beauty seems to have moved there to “make it big” in the industry. You start to go crazy listening to everybody’s pie in the sky acting dreams.
Want to feel like a true outsider? Move to New England where the families have been there for generations and have little respect or admiriation for the “left coast” or it’s people…and they certainly don’t want you moving there.
Want to feel like a pinball and have to perfect the way you walk so you don’t constantly run into people? Move to Manhattan. How much peace of mind do you think you’ll find there outside of a yoga studio?
Is the laid back (yet active) life your style? San Luis Obispo is great…until all the Arizona retirees show up in the Summer creating traffic havoc when there really isn’t much traffic to speak of. Not to mention…you have to drive almost 200 miles to get to any city for either culture or air travel.
Urban Cowboy your thing? Sacramento’s your place.
Every place has it’s benefits and it’s drawbacks with regards to both geography, people, climate, attractions etc…but everywhere I have lived, I have always been able to make good friends and don’t really have any regrets.
32
I actually like it here
// May 13, 2008 at 4:15 pm
I’ve lived in Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Lansing Michigan, Milwaukee, Phoenix, and now here, and I love Seattle. I found reasons to love all the places I’ve lived, and there are plenty of them here. Yeah, some people may be rude here, but I’ve found plenty of Midwestern transplants to be friends with. Yeah, it rains a lot in the winter, but if it’s raining in the city that means it’s snowing in the mountains. Alpental is 45 minutes away and beats hanging out in a gym after work. The food is amazing, as is the beer and wine. I can ride my bike to work year round. I love the entreprenurial spirit in town. People not only come up with great ideas left and right, but they have the courage and gumption to make them real. And I don’t see being “South Anchorage” as a bad thing. I’d rather live somewhere where the status symbol is how low your REI membership number is over what kind of car you drive any day. Yeah, I’d like housing to be more affordable, and I’d like a little more sunshine and be around people who actually care about their sports teams, but the good far outweighs the bad in my mind. Seattle’s my home now and I’m not looking to leave anytime soon.
33
deepcgi
// May 13, 2008 at 4:40 pm
Some of the prices on houses online from San Diego to Carlsbad, CA are looking pretty good versus the prices in Seattle. When do you think the nonproportional pricing will start to effect us up here?
34
shawn
// May 13, 2008 at 4:46 pm
I have lived in Seattle for 15 years and 4 in SF. In SF you must allocate about 30 minutes per drive for parking. Gosh, that drove me nuts. Took me 30 mins to drive home, and then 30 mins to find one little parking spot. SF takes in more $ for parking fines than for property taxes. That is one reason I prefer LA to SF. But, for me, SF had perfect weather, each day would start out a little overcast, and burn off by noon, and rarely get over 75 degrees. Lots of crime though in SF. I remember running over to a cop car and he quickly rolled his window up with quite a look of fear, and the police station that is locked up tight, you must use the buzzer to explain to them that you are being killed outside their front door. I managed commerical re (Franciso Studios), one bldg at Turk btwn Taylor and Jones, and I lived to tell the story. For a single guy SF was great, now with my kids, I would pick Seattle over SF.
35
MacAttack
// May 13, 2008 at 5:57 pm
You do know what Newsweek said about Seattle some time back: ” LA with rain.”
Some truth there.
36
Jonny
// May 13, 2008 at 6:18 pm
Seattle has a long history as a boom and bust town since it came into existence as a glorified base camp for the gold rush. The idea that Seattle is suddenly a new and better SF is pretty ridiculous in my view. If you’re looking for that, you’re going to be very disappointed.
As real estate gets cheaper in CA again and our ever-worsening nationwide speculative bubble series comes to a head in a full-blown economic catastrophe, the losses here are going to accelerate versus other cities, not weaken. You see, these idiots in Washington are working very hard to ensure that this crisis gets even worse by actually continuing to pursue - even more aggressively - the very policies that got us in this humongous mess in the first place. When the "chocolate" hits the fan, it’s going to end in a lot of tears and depression and maybe even social unrest and it’s going to affect Seattle employment. Seattle is a boom bust town and it’s going to be that much worse this time because of the national and global picture. 15 years ago Belltown was a sketchy neighborhood. But look around at the remaining older buildings next time you’re down there. Yes, it was not always so in earlier cycles. My expectation is that it will become a sketchy neighborhood again before this is all over.
Another major issue for Seattle yuppie housing speculators, as several posters have pointed out, is that the premium to live in SF or San Diego is narrowing. And while Seattle culture has become considerably less cool than it was in the 90’s with the influx of money and outsiders who think Seattle should change to suit them, ultimately, Seattle is going to remain Seattle and that is going to frustrate a lot of cultural imperialists who expect the city to conform to their expectations. Personally, I think “when in Rome…” If you can’t accept Seattle as it is, it’s probably best for everyone if you move along.
No offense to Californians, BTW. I like California, actually. At least to visit. And some Californians are very cool people. I just (a) wouldn’t want to live in California and (b) would never expect it to become something it’s not (as so many people moving to Seattle seem to expect).
37
B&W Nikes
// May 13, 2008 at 6:34 pm
My friends and family have been alternately calling Seattle the Klondike, or South Alaska, or Sleepyattle for years. We all love San Francisco, but since the whole tribe isn’t migrating, we are staying put here and liking it - we can even enjoy not liking the things that we don’t like. Who likes everything anyway? Besides, getting the heck out of Seattle is really fast and easy if you want to go and get yourself into some natural solitude or to another city or country. Takes about a half day for a big change of scenery, so no one is completely stranded here. Seattle does have its warts and severe brain damage when it comes to urban planning and building, but it’s often just as hilarious as it is frustrating. It just gets funnier the harder Seattle’s big shots try and sell the “we’re building a World Class city” stuff while constantly slipping on banana peels and leaving their ugly little reminders behind. Where’s the KBO when you need it?
The problem of gentrification, speculation, rising expense and decreasing livability is happening everywhere, not just under own dear gray blanket.
38
economist
// May 13, 2008 at 6:47 pm
I swear, I have lived in many places across the US and I have never experienced the level of insufferable uptight provincial asses as I have met and seen here. Honestly, this place is not a world class city.
Pay a visit north of the border and you’ll find a city that has Seattle totally outclassed in the uptight, self-important provincial asses department.
Said city also has no major employers, higher taxes, and San Francisco prices.
There’s also an overgrown small town across the water that is more expensive than Seattle.
Count your blessings.
39
Ira Sacharoff
// May 13, 2008 at 7:15 pm
“Insufferable uptight provincial asses”
Didn’t they play at Neumo’s a while back?
40
wreckingbull
// May 13, 2008 at 9:23 pm
I think the lesson from this post is that we are all here for very different reasons.
To me, Seattle is just a necessary evil. A means to an end. I live here so I can make a respectable living while enjoying the overall pacific northwest region. I could not care less about Seattle’s frumpy, flaccid residents, its self-doubting obession with all things ‘world-class’, or the latest tapas bar.
I grew up here, and for me, it was nice before all these annoyances were part of the scene. I guess one man’s annoyance is another man’s coveted prize. I work from home now, so the necessary evil is not so necessary anymore. Just be glad that you can pack up and shove off. Many citizens of the world don’t have that ability, thanks to oppressive governments or economic strife.
By the way, I find it interesting that those who give off the “Seattle Freeze” vibe are usually recent transplants themselves. They have an attitude that only they themselves are worthy to live in this Emerald Kingdom and anyone else who has a similar idea of starting a new life here is just not worthy should go home. Most of the old-timers I know are extroverts.
41
patient
// May 13, 2008 at 10:40 pm
We don’t consider ourselves whiners or complainers and rather act than sit still and complain. That’s why we are now looking at options to see if there are places with a more favourable mix to suit us. On the other hand we firmly believe that Seattles home prices will come crashing down with a bang and thereby return most of it’s attractiveness to us. We lived here for 10+ years and it’s just the last couple of years that this place mix of lack of affordability and poor weather has outperfomed it’s niceties.
42
Jonny
// May 13, 2008 at 11:38 pm
poor weather the last couple of years? this is normal.
43
Garth
// May 14, 2008 at 12:00 am
Isaac Brock is from Issaquah, which has never been cool, and Portland is so proud of their growth policies they don’t seem to have paid attention to the California style development going on across the river from them in Vancouver and surrounding areas.
All the art galleries in Georgetown are very cool, I have been to several fun parties there. When have artists ever been able to afford living close in before they made it? I distinctly remember dave grohl saying at a foo fighters show they drove down aurora to the lawn mower shop by Beth’s to buy go karts after nevermind came out. If nirvana had to live in shoreline in 1991, being an artist in Georgetown today seems like a pretty good deal.
44
rose-colored-coolaid
// May 14, 2008 at 7:36 am
We’ve covered this before, but I think the real issue isn’t that Seattle is unaffordable. It’s that Seattle is unaffordable and is not truly a ‘world-class’ city. A key insight here is that nearly every other city you can name with similar unaffordability issues is either a major financial center or the capital city of a globally significant nation. Usually, the truly unaffordable cities fall into both categories. Moscow, Tokyo, London, NYC, SF. This is true for all of these places.
Seattle is in the much smaller group of unaffordable places that aren’t financial centers. I guess we’re in a club with San Diego and … Miami?
45
patient
// May 14, 2008 at 8:09 am
rc, good summary. Jonny, the weather is what it is,bad, so it’s obviously the affordability that has pushed Seattle into the unattractive zone the last couple of years in comparison with earlier times. We covered this as well but I don’t think it’s not been so vocally expressed in msm before. The Times had another article a couple days ago about a dude who left for Minnesota due to the mix of unaffordability and poor weather. The conclusion is the same, Seattle doesn’t have goods to sustain unaffordability for the masses.
46
NotaBull
// May 14, 2008 at 8:11 am
“As an example, I dare any of you to enter a starbucks and try to strike up a conversation on the morality of abortion (not the legality…which most people agree on). Even something as innocuous as saying you aren’t sure about the morality of abortion (something that noone can logically be certain about) causes a stir of resentment and people WILL turn away.”
Saying you’re not sure about the morality of abortion is *not* an innocuous conversation topic to discuss with a STRANGER at Starbucks while waiting for your espresso. If you believe that’s the case, then you should probably redefine your library of chit-chat conversation starters. I recommend staying away from these:
“Hey there. My name is Bob. Topic: euthanasia and the right to choose one’s own destiny, even including assisted suicide outcomes. Grab your latte and we’ll talk, K?”
“Hi. Nice day out today. I wonder if it’s immoral to abort an unborn fetus… Have you ever had an abortion? If so, did you feel immoral or were you fine with it?”
“Hello stranger. Waiting for a latte? Inter-racial marriage and its effects on racial integration in the United States since 1960. Let’s discuss over a lemon loaf.”
“Howdy non-friend! Women have slightly smaller brains than men, and I was wondering if this has an impact on intelligence. You’re a women, so I thought you might have a unique perspective on that topic. Let’s chat”
47
Jonny
// May 14, 2008 at 8:12 am
The weather isn’t “poor”. It’s rainy. I happen to like that and so do many NWers.
48
matthew
// May 14, 2008 at 8:24 am
Jonny,
Is that why the region has one of the highest rates weather related depression?
49
Jonny
// May 14, 2008 at 8:34 am
That’s only a problem if you’re susceptible to that. The weather isn’t poor if you like rain.
50
Jonny
// May 14, 2008 at 8:39 am
wreckingbull: could it be that as an extrovert you mostly know other extroverts?
One of the old timers I know here (born and raised) suggested that when the Berlin wall came down we should have had it shipped here and deployed on the Oregon border. He’s not a bad guy. He just preferred a Fremont with dock workers and artists instead of yuppies and Thai restaurants. I’m not from here, but I’ve been here longer than anywhere else and so I can see where he’s coming from.
51
Plissken
// May 14, 2008 at 9:06 am
“We’ve covered this before, but I think the real issue isn’t that Seattle is unaffordable. It’s that Seattle is unaffordable and is not truly a ‘world-class’ city. A key insight here is that nearly every other city you can name with similar unaffordability issues is either a major financial center or the capital city of a globally significant nation. Usually, the truly unaffordable cities fall into both categories. Moscow, Tokyo, London, NYC, SF. This is true for all of these places.”
You’re the one being a bit provincial here. Seattle might not be in the same league as Moscow or Paris but neither are its real estate prices. I know Paris quite well and it’s a whole different ball game over there. The price of a decent SFH in Seattle gets you a crappy apartment in one of Paris’ worst district (like the 19th or 20th). For crying out loud this is a city where even renting is a major obstacle course. Landlords demand that grown men and women have their parents co-sign their lease. Why? Because they can. Whenever a rental comes on the market people line up in the street hours in advance just to get a chance to fill an application. Most people in Paris know that they will never own real estate in that town. Not only are prices an order of magnitude higher than they are in Seattle but salaries don’t even come close to what a qualified professional can hope to make here.
Seattle might not be a “world class city” but trust me, it has nowhere near the problem those cities have… especially when it comes to real estate.
52
TJ_98370
// May 14, 2008 at 9:30 am
“Howdy non-friend! Women have slightly smaller brains than men, and I was wondering if this has an impact on intelligence. You’re a women, so I thought you might have a unique perspective on that topic. Let’s chat”
Wow! Thanks for the tip NotaBull. I’ve been wondering why that line never worked very well for me.
Too funny!
53
GotMilk
// May 14, 2008 at 10:07 am
I was actually surprised someone didn’t mention it earlier. My example was pretty stupid. Thanks for the laugh Notabull. Now off to starbucks to talk about the difference between a caramel machiato and a caramel latte. I could talk about the weather but I still think abortion is more pleasant.
54
Cougar
// May 14, 2008 at 10:07 am
NotaBull;
Does it tell you what type of person you might find at a ‘Starbucks”? One who pays $4 for a cup of coffee on their credit card? I love coffee, but you won’t find me at a Starbucks, I’m the one you hear laughing and engaging with others by the window seat. Please join us! Seattle is livable, fun and you always dry out eventually.
55
Mike2
// May 14, 2008 at 10:23 am
A key insight here is that nearly every other city you can name with similar unaffordability issues is either a major financial center or the capital city of a globally significant nation. Usually, the truly unaffordable cities fall into both categories. Moscow, Tokyo, London, NYC, SF. This is true for all of these places.”
This reminds me of a refrain I often hear about Washington DC:
“DC real estate prices are only going up. It’s the least expensive capitol city of any western nation, foreigners see what a bargain it is.”
Yet, prices in much of the district (and especially surrounding suburbs) are dropping. Go figure. You’d think the whole “nations capitol” aspect would make the local RE market somehow “special” or “different” than podunk port cities like…
56
patient
// May 14, 2008 at 10:56 am
Jonny read this.
http://www.ncpamd.com/seasonal.htm
You might like grey skies and no sunshine but the fact is that it’s unpleasant for most and a real problem for many wether you like it or not.
57
MisterBubble
// May 14, 2008 at 12:06 pm
That doesn’t jive with what I saw. Rents in the Latin Quarter ranged from 1000-2000 Euros per month, and I didn’t see any lines at the rental agency. Talked to several students at Le Cordon Bleu who were renting in the outer districts for less than that.
Perhaps the reason you’ve heard about parents co-signing leases, is because most young Parisians have horrible jobs with low wages. It’s a problematic, well-known phenomenon in France, but it has nothing to do with the rental market.
58
WestSideBilly
// May 14, 2008 at 1:06 pm
Couple thoughts:
First, in relation to the 2nd article quoted, Mr Shelby’s quote is very misleading. Cropland has gone up 30-50% nearly everywhere, and it has nothing to do with people drifting. Commodity crop prices have gone up significantly in that time frame, for many reasons, and it’s made farming on marginal land profitable again. Farmers all across the country are buying up land and farming it, when a few years ago many were shutting down and moving to the city.
As for Seattle’s affordability and appeal… It’s far from unlivable. It’s difficult to get started if you don’t have affluent & benevolent parents. It’s hard to relocate from much of the country because of the huge disparity in housing costs. But that’s a tradeoff. These articles, and some of the comments, make it seem like you want it all. Seattle’s outdoors & economy, but with San Diego’s sun, San Fran’s “city culture” (whatever that means - the two cities have more in common than they have differences), small town traffic, and dirt cheap housing. It just ain’t going to happen. As an individual, you need to assess your situation. If you hate traffic, move to a medium sized city. Cheap housing really important? Detroit has “gems” aplenty. Need more sun? Move to California or Texas or Florida. Hate the people here? Move somewhere else. Seattle is a nice city with a lot going for it, but trying to make it something it isn’t will only lead to disappointment.
59
Plissken
// May 14, 2008 at 1:09 pm
“Rents in the Latin Quarter ranged from 1000-2000 Euros per month”
Did you bother to look at what you get for the money? And you’re just talking rents, not actual prices.
“Perhaps the reason you’ve heard about parents co-signing leases, is because most young Parisians have horrible jobs with low wages.”
Ah ah ah! Young Parisians with low wages don’t exist. A low wage in France for a full time employee is about 1000 euros a month after taxes. Do you believe that you can even rent in Paris when you make so little? You said it yourself, rents in the Quartier Latin are north of 1000 euros. People making that kind of money live in the “banlieues”, usually in state owned projects with controlled rents (they’re called HLM).
As for parents co-signing it’s common practice. Even my brother who’s a college graduate and holds a management position with a well known multinational company had to go through that. Landlords do it because they can. They can literally pick any tenant they want so why not take those that come with the lowest risk of default?
And yes, my brother had to go line up at 7:00 AM to apply for an apartment, not through a rental agency though. The owner was having an “open house” and taking applications. You won’t have to line up at rental agencies because they’re open all day but competition is nonetheless very fierce. Not to mention that although discrimination on the base of ethnicity is illegal, it is alive and well. There was a trial recently where a rental agency admitted they had “codes” in their files to indicate what sort of tenant each landlord was looking for (or trying to avoid).
Really, the real estate market in Seattle has nothing in common with those of “world class cities”. And if we ever qualify as one, you’re going to wish you were back in the good old days when a SFH merely cost $450K.
60
uptown
// May 14, 2008 at 6:02 pm
Re: the winter blues - If you live further north than SF, you should be taking Vitamin D in the winter. seattlepi.nwsource.com/health/307875_vitamind17.html
————————–
Housing prices in Seattle just don’t compare to those expensive places like SF, Paris and London.
I’ve seen worse traffic in LA, in the middle of a Sunday night, in the early 90’s (at that point, traffic was officially heavier on the weekends than the commute hours).
When it rains in CA it pours, here you get a like sprinkle (I’m talking Seattle proper, not the foothills). I never owned an umbrella or trenchcoat until I worked in SF.
Coastal fog in CA - it’s heavy and usually worse in the early summer. The big scam in Malibu used to be: rent your beach front house out in June to unsuspecting newbies or stewardesses, cause they’ll never see the ocean.
I love it up here.
61
Lake Hills Renter
// May 15, 2008 at 9:34 am
I believe I’ve said this before, but I don’t give a squat about Seattle the city. The only reason I live any where near the metro at all is because I work in Redmond, thus live nearby for the commute. If I wasn’t leashed to a job in the metro, I’d move out to the country in a heartbeat — and I don’t mean out Issaquah, I mean Marblemount. I love the Pacific Northwest, including the climate, but Seattle itself just doesn’t interest me. Real estate prices, whether Seattle is a “world class city” or what the people are like is irrelevent to me. I’m just here in the metro because I have to be, and I’ll move out to the mountains as soon as I can afford to not work any more.
62
Lake Hills Renter
// May 15, 2008 at 9:35 am
That should read “Real estate prices [i]aside[/i]…”.
63
Lake Hills Renter
// May 15, 2008 at 9:41 am
Jonny, I’m with you on the weather. I don’t mind the rain at all, in fact I like it more than sunny weather. I am aware that is not the norm, but I don’t feel bad for the people that live here and don’t like the rain. Do what I did — move. I grew up in sunny/hot Texas and hated it, so I moved here. Rain is what makes the Pacific Northwest what it is, lush and green.
64
NW Lover
// May 15, 2008 at 11:19 am
I like this site it is very educational. You guys are so spoiled and sometimes can not look outside of your perspective. I moved to this area 10 years ago, with no English, loans to come here fully legally, not as a student. Never used any financial aid, or any state or federal sponsored programs! All my friends come with 4 bags and lots of loans and education equal to yours. Thanks to people that loved talking and waiting most of us own the homes that you are buying or renting now. What is your problem? If you have high paying job to save 200-300K and buy a house? Most of us started working two low paying jobs working ourselves out of this misery and within couple years struggling with things that you have granted at the moment that you are born. Can you prioritize or you love all material things so much? You want 200K perfect house and getting 200K salary. It doesn’t work this way anywhere
65
uptown
// May 15, 2008 at 2:12 pm
NW Lover,
I’m glad you enjoy it here, but maybe you should take the time to meet some people ooutside your culture. Many of the folks I grew up were dirt poor (in a middle class Chicago suburb). Almost everybody worked after high school as few had “rich” parents; one friend worked the whole 2nd shift in a factory after school.
Most folks in this country live from paycheck to paycheck. Health care is unaffordable to many. It may be better and richer than where you came from, but that’s because our citizens worked hard to make it that way.
66
patient
// May 15, 2008 at 2:35 pm
LHR and Jonny, put on your sunglasses(to get the right shade of gloomy grey) and stay in the shower the next couple of days. The sun will be out!
67
Lake Hills Renter
// May 15, 2008 at 5:04 pm
Heh, I’ll be just fine. I don’t mind some sun now and then, nor the relatively warm temperatures in summer (anything over 85 sucks tho). But I do get a bit tired of people living in Seattle and complaining about the rain. WTF did you expect? It’s the Pacific Northwest. =P
68
Mikal
// May 15, 2008 at 9:18 pm
Most folks in this country do not live paycheck to paycheck. What a load of s###.
Many do, yes. I’m no republican either, but what does the comment about healthcare have anything to do with what nw lover wrote? Our citizens? Maybe he is now one himself you demeaning prick.
69
bitterowner
// May 16, 2008 at 4:17 am
I don’t really understand the attitudes of folks like ‘NW Lovers’ and ‘Rentersarelosers’ (and others) who profess that people who don’t want to buy houses at current historically hyperinflated prices are entitled and irresponsible. It seems like those who are currently reluctant to buy are the ones who are actually being more fiscally responsible and I would expect that those who preach responsibility and/or were disadvantaged immigrants or grew up penniless (my parents would qualify) would respect this type of restraint rather than criticize it. In fact, if those who choose to rent are really so “spoiled” by their wealthy upbringings then they should be admired for their restraint in not squandering the riches into which they were apparently born.
I don’t get the “if you don’t get right out there and spend 300K on a piece of crap SFH or a lcloset-sized leaking and hastily builit condo/townhouse then you are a whining , entitiled Mama’s boy/girl” angle.
70
biliruben
// May 16, 2008 at 7:07 am
Actually most people do live pretty much paycheck to paycheck.
“Meet the typical American family.
It has about $3,800 in the bank. No one has a retirement account, and the neighbors who do only have about $35,000 in theirs. Mutual funds? Stocks? Bonds? Nope. The house is worth $160,000, but the family owes $95,000 on it to the bank. The breadwinners make more than $43,000 a year but can’t manage to pay off a $2,200 credit card balance.
Mid-Career
Max Out Contribution Limits To Prepare for Retirement
Households headed by someone age 45 to 54 would appear, at first glance, to be in better shape than their younger counterparts. They make more money, $61,100 a year, and have a six-figure net worth.
Upper Income
Bring Savings Rate in Line By Curbing Some Expenses
Upper-income Americans suffer from some of the same problems as other families but may not know it.
The Retired
Home Equity Can Be Changed Into Cash
Retirees on average are living on very low incomes — a median of $24,400 — but have significantly more money tied up in their homes than other low-income Americans.
Lower Income
Rein in Spending to Build A Cushion for Emergencies
The biggest challenge facing lower-income Americans is that they don’t make enough money. That statement may seem so blindingly obvious as to be unhelpful, but financial planners say there are ways to boost the finances of those with a family income of $25,700 a year — short of helping them find…
The Young
Capitalize On Time to Lift Meager Savings
Households headed by someone under age 35 have one big factor in their favor: time. These families and individuals tend to have piddling savings — a median $14,200 net worth, and only $1,800 in cash savings among those with a bank account.
That is the portrait of the median American household as painted by the Federal Reserve Board’s Survey of Consumer Finances. The survey, which does not distinguish between sizes of families, nevertheless offers the most detailed look available of the balance sheet of U.S. households.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/04/AR2006030400238.html
That was in 2006. It’s probably worse now.
71
biliruben
// May 16, 2008 at 7:08 am
Shoot. An ad slipped into my cut-and-paste.
72
NW Lover
// May 16, 2008 at 7:58 am
I think you misunderstood me. I don’t say buy a house or condo it doesn’t matter what. Tim is doing really good job to try to put numbers and graphs to something that sometimes is not predictable but it is helping to understand the real situation a little bit more. It is in any human nature everybody wants to have their own home. I don’t look just my culture, I don’t live in close door society. Just trying to give you a different view. I didn’t come from rich society or country. Quite the opposite. My family had basically two priorities pay off their home and give their kids possibility to get best education possible in that country. It is not different, right? So far. Believe me, you really are spoiled and all Europeans are punished. Don’t look at 36 ours working week and one month vacation –you will have hearth attack just by trying to survive with basic prices for food and clothing, not to mention the average square footage that they live. You just don’t realize how good we have it in this country. The statistics are sad. I can give you two real examples outside “my culture”. Born and raised in US.
1. Her family lived on welfare in mobile home. Not a good start whatsoever. Very good person making uninformed choices and couldn’t get out from this environment. Always working hard and achieved nothing.. I met her when I come to the country on my first miserable job. In her 40s she saw how I prioritize and save money with total 12 dollars an hour. Now she is out of this misery and for 3 years owns a home in very desirable eastside neighborhood and manages her own finances really good. She can’t believe how much she achieved by making good choices.
2. Similar situation in his past. When he started the high paying job, he decided to prioritize and not have anything but basics and for 7 years he saved 500K. Now he has a family and he is ready for kids.
Please, don’t compare me to rentaloosers. I’m talking about something really different.
73
Civil Servant
// May 16, 2008 at 9:30 am
NW Lover, but but but: in your examples, you praise your friends for prioritizing, saving money, and setting goals. That’s only what we’re doing here. Maybe the difference is that we’re saving money *specifically* in anticipation of market conditions that are more favorable to buyers? I would submit that this isn’t greed or being spoiled and wanting more than we deserve, it’s smarts. And while I can only speak for myself, it’s partly on account of having grown up without much money (my own parents did not own houses until they were in their 50’s) that motivates me not to want to make uninformed choices, to be like your friends. It’s not cool of you to make assumptions about our individual situations, motives, and attitudes.
74
EconE
// May 16, 2008 at 9:38 am
NW lover said….
“Tim is doing really good job to try to put numbers and graphs to something that sometimes is not predictable”
I’d say his predictions are the most accurate I’ve come across. More accurate than any local RE professional.
Now to address your rant that would probably be more appropriate elsewhere.
I do agree that we are very spoiled in this country.
Now that you are here…you are very spoiled also.
Don’t like it? Then feel free to return to your “culture” and your “country” and stop coming in here and painting everybody with a broad brush stroke.
When I travel to countries with “less spoiled” people. Often I find that there are more people who are dishonest and try to hustle me. Does that mean that you are the same way? Is everybody from your culture/country dishonest conniving thieves?
I didn’t think so.
I’ve been to trailer parks and seen meth heads. Does this mean I should assume that your first example is a meth addict and that the only way that she came out ahead is that she took so much speed that she could work 80 hours a week and didn’t have to spend a dime on food?
Oh…I’m wrong again?
If I want to hear special interest sob stories I’ll turn on the news.
75
Mikal
// May 16, 2008 at 3:51 pm
Remember to only post what everyone here will agree with. If not you should take your contradictory opinion elsewhere. Who are you, George Bush?
Jump to the top of the comments. ↑
Leave a Comment