“but the government ought to exist to protect people’s rights,”

maybe you meant “but the government ought ONLY to exist to protect people’s rights,” There, fixed it for you. haha

Dave out.

I really resent people trying to take away my freedoms every day of the freakin’ week. SoCal is the type (judging by what he posted way above) to want that. Everything is “We need to do this”, and “we need to do that”. If you are a big fan of solar power, more power (npi) to you – just do it – start your own business, get an engineering degree, put out resumes. Build a better mousetrap, and they will come (mixing a coupla expressions here).

“Commie” is indeed the correct word for someone who wants to use my tax money for their pet projects, such as forcing the use of corn-based ethanol in gasoline. Maybe, SoCal, you didn’t mean it in that way, but you should say so. Just tell me you don’t know what’s good for me (and you don’t want the laws to make me do what’s good for me), and I will take back my statement. This majority forcing the minority to do what, in your mind, is right, business is tyranny. How is that different from the governenment of Turkmenistan (or whatever it is) telling the people they can’t dance?

I don’t expect a reply, as this thread is old.

Oh, I never said I voted for either of the Bushes, dude. Neither is a conservative, with #43 being even farther from one than his Daddy. I started voting L way back in 1988. I don’t own an SUV, and never have. Some people do have a need – say people with 4 kids and/or living out in the sticks. No, I don’t want to hear them complain about the $120 fill-ups either. Not my problem, but on the other hand, I don’t want to pass laws that prevent auto makers from building what these customers may want or think they want.

The main thing I’m pissed at you about, SoCal is putting out crap information. It’s the same as the Greenies – if you believe in some idea, at least don’t try to BullS__t every one. You were quoting some TV show with bogus information, or you have no clue about science. That is fine, if you are more of a verbal person or what have you, but, see, I don’t want 10 people with this kind of knowledge on some type of “Central Committee” ruining people’s lives (It’s called, yes, COMMUNISM).

Hmm…. I thought that I had pointed out that I discovered the documentary was in error, and that it was not MY math. I was simply referencing their claim. Still, the tech is valid, and even at 100 times the area, there is still enough empty, useless land in the southwest to make this a viable alternative energy source.

But, Mr. Lincoln, you seem to require a punching bag or two to vent your understandable anger — what with the “Commie” comment and flipping off police officers and selfishly ignoring traffic laws and whatnot. I’m sure that forking out several hundred dollars every month to fill your gas guzzling SUV, and coming to grips with what a massive failure the Bush administration has been for the country, it’s much easier to bark out blame and frustration on everyone else instead of taking any responsibility yourself for putting him in office — TWICE — so the he could uselessly squander American lives and treasure to the detriment of us all.

But since you seem to take my opinions on energy so personally that you feel you have to make personal attacks, you’ll have to find some other punching bag. I refuse to debate politics or their inherent issues with anyone who takes it personally.

P.S. Being that stressed and angry can be very distracting. Try to stay a little calmer while you’re running all those red lights and stop signs on your bike lest some socialist commie mow you down in their Smart Car. :-)

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Also Ron Paul does have a day job in the US Congress. He is not far right either – you may want to take the libertarian quiz (no I don’t have a link) and see where you stand. You may want to keep your day job, Mr S. California, as you definitely don’t have the thinking skills to do anything involving numbers and decision-making. 100 miles square is 100 times bigger than 100 sq miles ! So, you want to write about what “WE” should do, and you are off by a factor of 100 on your suggestion. Maybe that should be your clue to concentrate on your day-job and not spout off nonsense (especially about science/technology) Your mistake on that makes some of Obama’s “gaffes” sound like quotes from Isaac Newton.

Letting ‘the market decide’ is fine for home prices and plasma TVs, but not for anything that can potentially end civilization as we know it. If we allowed the market to decide everything, then we’d never have safety belts in our cars and the hole in the ozone layer above Antarctica would have reached the equator by now instead of closing.

Some things are simply too important to allow human greed for profit to override the survival of our planet and our species.

And like I said, just a few minutes of web research led me to the info about SoCal Edison investing heavily in these solar farms. That means it IS economically feasible. However, it’s because we’ve allowed ‘the market’ to determine when investments are made that we find ourselves in the current mess we’re in now. Just a little courage and forward thinking on the part of the people and their elected reps could have put us ahead of the curve on global warming and peak oil reserves instead of playing catch-up.

And when I say “we,” I literally mean WE, THE PEOPLE. We should stop being so apathetic and take responsibility and initiate change through laws, not “the market.” If a majority of Americans decide to change things, then, yes, it should be enforced by the government. If some of those in the minority, like Libertarians, usually — don’t like it, they can go pound sand. Or they can recruit more members to their party and try to win a majority.

Of course that can never happen in our current demorcratic system since Libertarians are at best “fringe” Republicans.” The only possible, VIABLE third party would be to organize all the moderates from the right and left into a centrist party. Any ideologies too far right or left cannot succeed here for the simple fact that Americans, because of our relative “freedom,” naturally gravitate towards the center.

Only a calamity of apocalyptic proportions could push the electorate to the extreme far right or left. So until then, Ron Paul and his ilk should not quit their day jobs.

Downtown Seattle, 4th Ave headed S. in the “bike lane”. I had a cop yell at me and tell me to quit riding on the sidewalk. Why was I on the sidewalk,? you ask. Because the cop had her Crown Vic. parked blocking the bike lane (and 1/2 of the left car lane), attending to some bum who passed out or something.

Needless to say, I rode by her and flipped her off*. How stupid do you have to be to get hired at the Seattle Police Dept.? I feel I could never get hired and would need some type of affirmative action.

Yeah, right, good luck catching me! You’d have a better chance trying to find D.B. Cooper.

“Or we can do what we always do and wait till chaos erupts and millions of lives are lost or ruined before we change our ways.” Or, we can do things right, and let the market decide what works. It’s all about prices and returns on investment. The ethanol boondoggle alone should show you what happens when the heavy hand of governement gets involved. I’m not implying that this it what you want, but whenever people say “WE should do this” or that, it sounds to me like “the government should force people to do this” or that.

Well, I was referencing a documentary on global warming I saw recently. I’ll leave the calculations to you eggheads.

However, I did do a little Googling, and the documentary had it wrong in part. They should have said “100-mile square area” vs. “100 square miles.” But even that may not be large enough.

The tech I’m talking about is not photovotaic cells, but solar mirror arrays. I’ve seen one of these in the SoCal desert. Large, dish-shaped mirrors controlled by computers constantly focus concentrated sunlight on a receptor at the top of a central tower. The intense heat powers a turbine that generates electricity.

SoCal Edison has invested heavily in this tech, and by 2011, they will have a plant covering 4500 acres that generates 500 MW’s. These plants convert solar to elec much more efficiently than photovoltaic cells ( around 30% vs. only 14%)

Of course it’s a huge project, but so was going to the moon, Mars, and developing the atomic bomb. The oil on this planet is running out fast, and we’re going to have to find other resources sooner or later. The smart thing to do is develop these alternative resources NOW when it won’t be as painful.

Or we can do what we always do and wait till chaos erupts and millions of lives are lost or ruined before we change our ways.

That is not new, they have done it for years, and it is a moving violation :)

That’s very strong evidence that there are far too many MIPD officers. It’s time to cut the force in half when you see that. That goes double for Lake Forest Park Kiddie-Cops (where I see ‘em).

Now that I rarely venture too far south of 65th, I generally can safely obey traffic laws. Downtown it’s suicide.

The idea of getting a more fuel efficient car is good but a 10 year old Civic is not the answer for many. Try taking your kids to daycare in that. Not only is it cramped but it’s also questionable from a safety point of view. As long as 5000 pound vehicles rules the highways I won’t put my kids in a car that will look like you stepped on a coke can in a confrontation. Also, I wonder how clean the typical 10y old car really burns compared to a new one?

We got a pretty large new sedan (BMW) that gets us about 22mpg in commuter traffic, so you can have decent space and decent fuel efficiency. I think we will see more diesels in sedans as well going forward. In europe almost all sedans are diesels due to fuel efficiency.

Regarding european cost of gas, I’m european and when I left about 15 years ago the price was comparable to ~$4 a gallon. Since then the price has gone up about 40% which is pretty much inline with inflation. Since I came to the US about 10 years ago the price has gone up with 400%…So to compare with europe is dicy since they have had very long time to get used to small increases. In the US the truly has been a chock increase. That’s why I think the impact will be shocking as well. People and the system have had no chance to adapt and absorb these hikes.

I generally try to buy as close to home as possible, but for things like bananas that’s just not possible. But even in summer the grocery store generally can’t compete with farmer’s market prices. I expect there will be a boom in local consumption this year due to lower shipping costs, not to mention an increase in interest in personal gardening. I’m sure the wild blueberry and huckleberry patches will be swamped even more than usual as well.

Don’t worry B+W Nikes, I don’t buy farmed salmon, I was just making a feeble attempt at humor.
I might buy less wild salmon this year if the price is 3x the normal price, but I won’t be switching to the farmed stuff.

No it’s not, You may have not ridden bikes as long as I have. Rule #1 is STAY AWAY FROM THE CARS! Rule # 2 See rule # 1 (I hate when people say that, oh well ;-(

Really, I will break whatever traffic laws I need to on a bike to stay safe, and running lights and stop signs sometimes can keep you away from the cars (and buses)..

30 years of riding and never hit anything but one dog (he was fine, just bent up my front wheel, but the people were cool and payed me $15 for a new wheel)

Oh, Rule # 3 You do not tell people how bad the movies “Fight Club” sucks.! (just had to throw that in, wasted $3.75 on that one).

On a recent business trip I sat next to an engineer that works on dam design. He told me all about the new turbines and generators that we have now, and the retrofitting you can do to an old dam to increase efficiency by maybe 20-30% or more. Apparently they also have turbines that certain fish can get though, and they also attempt to mitigate impact by putting in fish ladders.

Obviously, *everything* we do to get energy from the environment has an impact whether due to the production of a wind turbine, or the impact on a valley due to a new dam. If we’re sensitive to those impacts and pick solutions that will work and have minimal impact, then I think that’s about as good as we can get. Using less energy in the first place reduces the overall size of the system needed to generate that energy, so that should be part of the solution too.

I heard a frightening statistic about electricity usage in SoCal. I heard that 30% of the electricity used is to pump water around. I used to live in SoCal (short stint – didn’t like it) and it’s disgusting how much water is wasted. I lived in a medium income suburb and pretty much everyone has sprinklers that they use DAILY. So they picked a yard that required a lot of water (grass) and *then* they picked a method of irrigation that’s the least efficient (sprinklers) and *then* they use that method inefficiently (watering every day which creates shallow roots and discourages drought tolerance).

I rented a place and had to leave the sprinklers on. It pained me. So I changed it to water for 50% longer, but every other day. In the winter I followed the forecast and only watered if it hadn’t rained for a week. I dramatically reduced water consumption at the house, kept the stupid grass yard, and spent zero dollars. However, water is too cheap in SoCal for most people to consider this. In summer my water bill was $80 at the peak. That doesn’t seem to come close to pricing in the true cost of that water.

There’s no shortage of "female dogging" about how fresh foods cost more than processed junk food here. But there doesn’t seem to be any recognition that the reason you’re able to enjoy fresh product at all (other than greens and radishes, judging from what’s on the tables at the local farmer’s market lately) is that it’s shipped from elsewhere. Oftentimes WAY elsewhere.

SCrow, your kids are eating $10/day worth of fruit. Where do those bananas and oranges come from? Those crops don’t grow within 1000 miles of here.

Fuel prices are going to impact the cost of everything.

A wide variety of fresh produce year-round is a recent development–there wasn’t this much choice and quality in the winter when I was a kid in the 70s. I think 15 years from now we may recognize it for the luxury it is!

You will feel so much better, and you can run all the red-lights you want. Yahoo!

* All I wanna do is bicycle, bicycle, bicycle,
Bicycle races are coming you way,
so look out for those beauties, oh yeah….

What we need is the political will to maintain gas prices at this level. We need legislation that says that “gas prices at the pump will never be lower than $3.50 a gallon”. If the price of wholesale gasoline goes down below that point, we just tax it more. The taxes, by law, MUST go into funding grants/prizes/research for solving alternative energy problems and assist towards creating patent-free technologies for all to use. Some of the taxes must also go to credits for poor people that are regressively affected by this tax.

The effect of this is that everyone will know the future of prices. Companies will be able to invest in a solution that makes sense if gasoline >$2.50 because they know that will always be so. Individual consumers won’t moan about prices but hold onto desires to buy an full size SUV they don’t really need, because they know that it will always cost at least $80 to fill it up. Ultimately, the price at the pump goes down for consumers because you’ll use less gasoline due to the new technologies the tax brought in.

The problem with the demand side of the equation is that *if* a significant amount of people buy a Prius/Volt, then the demand for gasoline will go down. If the supply stays steady (which it is right now) then prices will drop. If gas drops down to $2 a gallon, that SUV starts to look pretty attractive again and we’re back where we started. That would be bad, and would put us back in the 90s again!

It will take significant political will power to enact this kind of legislation, which is why I think it might never happen. After all, it’s pretty hard for the general public to understand how this solution might actually work, long-term. I suppose as long as we address the problem with this kind of long-term solution AND short-term assistance for those that are struggling, then you might be able to package the legislation into something that’s palatable.

OK, enough of that, I would like to say that I have not seen a single comment yet that is appreciative of the super low residential electric rates we have in Seattle. I mean around 3 to 4 cents / kWh! It is 3 times as much in many places. It particularly matters if you have electric heat and/ or an air conditioner (not necessary in the NW, but I’ve seen em.)

Most of the posters here know enough to know why these rates are low, and that is due to hydro. If nothing else, we should at least be thankful for those dams. Let us really re-consider blowing up dams to try to save a few salmon – remember, you can get em at $38/lb (BTW, also jacked up a little, I’m sure, due to the air-freight costs – many are flown in on Alaska Airlines 737 freighters or combi’s.)

I absolutely agree inflation is way higher than the CPI says (not only that, what is it with the whole “core” thing anyway? You’ve got to pay for your fuel and food.) Also, I’ve always wondered why housing prices were never in the CPI “basket” of goods – or were housing *payments* included? I would like to know.

Finally, a funny from Ray Pepper. Yea! Thanks for not trying to sell anything to me, as I am not buying (nothing personal, just bidness ;-)

I think that only goes half way. Gas prices are a problem because people choose to live far from work AND because they choose the use a lot of gasoline moving to and from work.

The first choice (location) isn’t always a fair choice. Some people can’t afford to live near their job. How does someone who cleans bathrooms in Bellevue live nearby? It’s easy for those that make a lot of money (me included) to pour scorn on those that live in cheap areas as if ALL of them are choosing to do so because they want a McMansion. Some are, but not all.

The second choice (method of transit) is a real choice. If you live in Everett and commute to Bellevue and you *choose* to do that in an SUV/Pickup/muscle-car then count yourself lucky – at least you can do something about what you pay in gas! Get rid of that gas guzzler and pick up a used 10 year old Civic. You’ll go from 15MPG to 30MPG and suddenly your gas bill will be magically back to where it was in 2003 when gas was $2 a gallon! Voila! If you don’t *want* to get the Civic/Camry or other vehicle that doubles your MPG, then I have no sympathy.

If, however, you’ve already got the efficient car, live far from your job, and the gas prices are biting you, then I have a lot of sympathy. You made the right choices, and have nowhere to go at this point. Drive slower, take a bus, hold on tight and good luck to you.

Tonight for dinner…no salmon…chicken enchiladas ("golly" good ones too).

Under pressure from consuming nations concerned by oil’s rally, the kingdom said last week it would boost output by 300,000 bpd to compensate for lower supply from other producers.Oil prices were unmoved by the report of rising OPEC supply.(reuters story earlier)

… think I’ll bypass the pink metro and head straight at lobbying for yellow brick sidewalks.

The obvious major downside to two wheeled transport around here is the wet weather. Otherwise, I agree, riding a bike of any type can be a fun way of getting around.

Where is David Losh when we need him? This needs to be investigated immediately, if not sooner!

IT’S NOT ABOUT PINK PONIES! – IT’S ALL ABOUT PINK HONDA METROPOLITANS!

It seems so clear now. Why didn’t we see it before?

OPEC: Weak Dollar, Not Supply, Keeps Prices High

The weak dollar is the main factor keeping prices at high levels, not the supply of oil, and that situation is likely to continue, current OPEC president Chakib Khelil, who is also Algerian Oil Minister, said on Tuesday…….

Eat an orange…drink water.

Rice, Legumes.

Oatmeal.

Rising Sun Markets on 65th has good deals on vegetables.

EAT LESS…Most Americans could use this anyways.

$25 for a fruit plate for an open house? Bah…nobody needs food at an open house.

5 years ago when I was a teacher…I knew children that didn’t even get to eat at home. Their meals were the “free and reduced lunch plan”. Their families couldn’t afford computers to get on the internet and "female dog" about inflation.

House prices increased from $500k to $750k in 2 to 3 years..Do they worth it? Hell no…

So why are we suprised?..

#9 I agree completely. I pity anyone who actually can’t feed themselves or their family. Which is just another reason I do not like ethanol.

#10 All the problems you listed only exist because gas was too cheap in the 90’s. How can I say it was too cheap? It was too cheap because it encouraged people to make stupid unsustainable decisions.

#11 I agree that federal mandates about ethanol are a problem, as are subsidies. Take a serious look at the net energy output and it’s absolutely pathetic. By the time you consider energy put into growing ethanol and processing it, it provides almost no net gain. If you consider fertilizers used and water usage as well as pollution, the picture gets even worst. We’d be better off putting solar panels on a small section of that open land.

As for how I can proclaim high energy prices are a good thing, it all depends on your perspective. Yes, if USA produced all oil, it would be even more of a good thing. But the only real problem alternative energy has ever had is that it was too expensive. In short, oil was too cheap for us to move past it. We’ve finally hit the point where that’s not all that true anymore. So, this might sting for the next 5-10 years, but in 15 years when everyone is driving an electric car to work (possibly even made in USA), running off a clean power grid, we’ll be asking why it ever took us so long to get off that awful gasoline engine in the first place. Sometimes you have to sacrifice a little in the short term to benefit in the long, and in America we don’t get that. So it requires the invisible hand to force us, and that’s why high oil prices are good.

FYI, I am predicting regular gasoline in excess of $5.25 this time next year.