They may be able to afford food and hot showers, but here it is every body. I mean every body who wants food and hot showers. Those are the luxuries most people remember about the United States.

Freedom? That’s only for the very wealthy and the desperately poor in this country.

Most people who strive for success here talk about going home or sending money home. You can migrate by class, but that’s different from freedom.

I believe their publicly announced layoffs will prove to be grossly under reported. For one thing, every year they fire the bottom 10% of staff based on performance reviews. It’s based on the GE model. They never call these “layoffs”. They are fired for cause. So by just freezing new hires, MS will shed around 8,000 jobs per year. If the economy stays weak, there is also a lot of duplicate effort that could go fast.

Microsoft is basically a PR company with some software that they change superficially every few years, so they can re-sell the same thing to locked-in businesses. (Sound like the music business model yet ??) They don’t want the negative publicity of mass layoffs.

Boeing is doing the same thing. Publicly stating everything is great, until suddenly the dreamliner had to be delayed another year. Luckily, airbus is in sorry shape as well, so they can still survive on the older models.

I’m not sure why this market is holding up as well as it has. It probably means the consumer spending decline is over stated, or credit deflation isn’t as horrible as the MSM makes it out to be. But I sure won’t be buying a house until prices stabilize and start going back up, or until we have massive foreclosures as seen in CA.

Freedom of high taxes yeah, but I can’t legally smoke pot anymore and I have to wear a frigging helmet when riding bicycle! And without my cozy European welfare blanket, without 6 weeks of paid holidays and now being dependent on a sponsor for my H1B visa, for the first time in my life I feel like a complete wage slave. But heck, nothing beats living in a city with hills, lakes, big trees and a decent music scene :-)

Hi David Losh,

My Dear its not just the hot shower’s which H1B’s like here in US. Most of the H1B’s here in US are pretty well educated and they could definitely afford a hot shower/food in their home countries.

Its the Freedom which people get in the US which really draws people to the US apart from the comfort’s. (This is something which you would not understand if you are born in the US).

It is the great diversity which produces companies like Microsoft,Google and many startups in Silicon Valley. I have personally heard from people that children of immigrants/H1B’s really fuel the US economy as they have the zeal to be successfull just like their parents. You could show some respect to H1′Bs.

Thanks!

Starbucks is looking at another big wave of layoffs. I don’t think this company is going to be staying independent if they keep going at this pace…

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2008665670_starbucks24.html?syndication=rss”

Perhaps, Kraft can have a luxury brand to complement Maxwell House

Bill Gates has made several statements over long periods of time that technology should be shared, not code mind you, but computers in every house hold kind of thing.

Computer science, technology, code included, can grow exponentially with more people having access. Yes you can get a degree practically free if you have the ability for programming or computer engineering.

It’s done by ability, you either have it or you don’t. You can do it India, Egypt, Columbia, or China, to name a few. All countries seem to have some program for the advancement of technology.

The Bangladesh doctor reference is typical of why we just refuse to allow other professions the same courtesy of access to education based on an ability.

H1B allows people to come here where we have everything, everything. We have food every day. It’s easier to train people here. The Visa status is monitored because once people get used to having hot showers it’s hard to get them to leave.

There is nothing sinister about it. In my opinion Microsoft should be an example of how far and fast a new industry can grow with inclusion.

That being said, didn’t Microsoft add 15,000 in the past couple of years? So how is the lay off damaging? As I’ve heard and read they also intend on continueing to hire in the next couple of year. What if we are talking about a change in direction rather than lay offs?

Yes, certain doctors’ services could be filled by medical professionals with less formal education, or by doctors trained in other counties with differing medical education systems. Many family medicine and women’s health services are performed by nurse practitioners and physician assistants. However, surgery is a practice that requires a very specialized skill set and extensive training, and not many people in any country can meet its requirements. Comparing heart surgeons to software developers is comparing apples to oranges.

“If you had the opportunity to have a free education to become an MD and make 125-250k a year as a Physician vs. Pay for a degree in tech to make the same amount…which would you choose?”

Right now, at least, you don’t have to pay for the tech degree but you do for the medical degree. I am currently in a PhD program for Electrical and Computer Engineering. All PhD students in my department are supported (tuition + stipend ~$25k/year). This is the norm for most ECE and CS departments across the country, particularly for the top ones. Starting salaries may not be as good as those of a surgeon or specialized physician, but there are no graduate student loans to repay.

The cost of medical school and the oppressive student loans I would have to take out to afford it were definitely one deterrent keeping me from that path. However, even if it were free, I probably would not choose a career in medicine because I simply wouldn’t want to have to deal with illness and death and blood and body parts on a daily basis.. it’s just not my thing, and I’m glad there are other people out there willing do it.

Starbucks is looking at another big wave of layoffs. I don’t think this company is going to be staying independent if they keep going at this pace…

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2008665670_starbucks24.html?syndication=rss

Off topic – last week it was announced the median home price is SoCal is now $275K. Probably under $200K in a year.

Note that this is the median selling price of houses, not the median value of all houses, the great majority of which are of course not for sale.

These days about 1/2 of all sales in SoCal are foreclosures, mostly in the Inland Empire, so don’t be mislead into thinking that the median house in SoCal would only sell for 275K.

If you had the opportunity to have a free education to become an MD and make 125-250k a year as a Physician vs. Pay for a degree in tech to make the same amount…which would you choose?

Most of the MDs I know really WANT to be doctors. They don’t necessarily do it for the money. Most of the people I know who do something just for the money are miserable.

I have to admit I never worked for either Google or MS. Maybe I and the people I happen to know have just been lucky. 20% time and stuff does sound like a bit like a cheap trick to lure young enthusiast in who will spend that in over-time anyway and then burn out in 5 years :-)

“Amazing. Just a few months ago I was being told that if my Microsoft salary didn’t let me buy a house then maybe I should find a new job. Now I’m being told that I’m paid more than most people.”

I’m talking about 90-120K salaries, which isn’t as much as a heart surgeon takes home, but still a decent pay considering the national average, and a great pay for international standards. Is my estimation off, or do you guys really think that range isn’t much of a salary?

People I know who work for either actually get wages that most people in the US would be quite happy to take home, and that is above market average.

Amazing. Just a few months ago I was being told that if my Microsoft salary didn’t let me buy a house then maybe I should find a new job. Now I’m being told that I’m paid more than most people.

Question for the “tech/engineering” posters on SB.

You guys are all obviously smart…after all…your degrees weren’t “fluff” …you know…like a business degree. (Economics was harder than business but still a joke).

If you had the opportunity to have a free education to become an MD and make 125-250k a year as a Physician vs. Pay for a degree in tech to make the same amount…which would you choose? (Assuming that you would work the same amount in either job) Or would you then feel the need to make $400k…just because you can?

Not everybody is smart enough to become a Dr. so of course there would have to be some sort of criteria…whatever it may be.

And Please don’t take my question as a flame on the tech industry.

We just really don’t have enough Dr’s…and more than enough video games/ipods/blackberries/option laden cell phones etc. from my perspective.

One thing for sure…we need more MD’s…and fewer “Hospital Administrators” with MBA’s. ;o)

Another big round of layoffs is expected at Starbucks, possibly as many as 1,000 headquarters employees as well as some district managers and field employees, Diane Daggatt, a managing director at McAdams Wright Ragen in Seattle, wrote in an e-mail to the brokerage’s customers today.

Any other Seattle area old timers remember the “Ineffectual middle management suckups”? Here is an episode:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUIQX5esnNo&feature=related

Doctors around the world are trained in the English language. In South American countries, for example doctors have training in a hospital setting after two years of med school. They change bed pans.The color of urine and stools can tell you a lot about what’s going on inside. They help more experienced nurses with patient care. It lowers hospital costs.

Practical experience is what sets many doctors apart.

That Calcutta trained doctor example is what’s used to scare the public from having doctors without borders. It’s ridiculous. The doctors in the United States are given high tech equipment from General Electric to train on while doctors in other parts of the world have to look for home remedies. That’s where the fear factor of voodoo medicine comes from.

Any one who has the ability should be able to be trained as a doctor. I think the University system should monitor that ability and encourage talent. That education should be free. It can be paid back in services.

Training doctors based on the ability to pay tuition is exactly why we have a bunch of momma’s boys making $400K a year. It is a return on investment.

Here in the housing bubble blog I’m surprised there isn’t more outrage about the high cost of health care. Here in the United States health care is designed for the very wealthy.

You go to the doctor to get little purple pills paid for by your employer paid health care insurance. That’s what your doctor is doing all day. For all the flowing white coat debate about how great American doctors are they leave millions, if not billions of people untreated every day,

Yes we should be passing out H1B Visas to doctors. Doctors should be allowed to go where ever they chose. If they chose to come to the United States it will be survival of the fittest. That is the capitalist system.

We should start with doctors because health care is the highest espense we have. Technology should be a close second, but the H1B Visa debate should be for more than the intellecutual elite.

I agree. It’s a situational trade-off best left to personal preference.

Euro: I’m an H1B, so is my wife (well, Green card now, but started out on H1B), and we bough a home this year, and now we’re spending my inheritance money in doing remodeling. Someone has to keep the economy rolling! ;-)

That’s great. Let me emphasize that I have nothing against H1B workers, even when it lowers my own pay. Instead I bristle at our byzantine multi-year immigration process, which, for the sake of the country’s competitiveness, should be smooth and quicker for bringing in top talent. H1B workers should get their green cards faster, so they cannot be long exploited by the bad apples you mention. Ideally someday, workers should be able to cross all borders freely & easily, with each country competing for the best of them.

Euro: How much higher must it get? … There is a limit to what is a reasonable wage for any given job, and going much above that simply destroys your competitiveness and encourages boom/ bust cycles in the profession.

True. Tell that to the CEOs making mega-millions! When are we going to have H1B CEOs? I agree with the article that softwarengineer posted. We’ll eventually (if we don’t already) have H1B doctors, lawyers, everything. H1B techies is just the first wave. When we have H1B doctors you’ll surely see some hospital claiming that the universities simply aren’t pumping out enough quality docs anymore. In reality it will be almost exclusively a pay issue.

There’s no shortage of that in many parts of the world, and America actually does poorly when it comes to education compared to many industrialized countries. It just has a few great universities …

University educations aren’t critical to software development. Gates doesn’t have one. A whole legion of software developers from the 1980s don’t have one. I think they are mainly just a resume filtering criteria.

H1-B enables them to pick out the best talent world-wide.

If that was a main reason, H1Bs would commonly have the same salaries as US citizens. Unscientifically, I observe that such is far from the norm. To be competitive, MSFT (and other companies) must exploit the H1B workers. If they can’t leave to work for another company because they don’t have a green card, you pay them a fraction of what a US citizen would get, just like an indentured servant. Shareholders would otherwise be furious.

For a software engineering position – with comparable pay, and interesting subject matter and technologies – we get maybe 5 a day, of which 4 lack a cover letter, have resumes that are obviously not tailored for the job they are applying to, and lack the relevant experience that we asked for (and we weren’t really being that specific either… for instance someone with only Visual Basic experience when we’re asking for Java).

I suggest the “comparable pay” you have in mind is predicated upon the availability of cheaper labor. When someone else will do it for half of x, the x quickly looks unreasonable. This is normal human behavior; it’s not wrong. A US heart surgeon might make $400K per year. You don’t hear people calling that unreasonable, even if they grumble about the high cost of health care in general. But just wait until there are competent H1B heart surgeons, trained in Bangledesh, happy with $100K per year. Then you’ll see hospital recruiters complaining to Congress that “we offered comparable wages but got no qualified applicants, so please remove the H1B cap on heart surgeons…”

vermillionsky: I don’t know about that. Even if CS jobs started paying enough money to tempt away the business majors, I think the math and science knowledge of our high school grads wouldn’t keep up with demand.

I think way too much is made of math and science for CS people. How many software developers are tasked with eeking out another 1% performance on a sorting algorithm? For most, it’s enough to know math no higher than algebra and to be logical, as in being able to answer a slew of reasonable logic problems. I used to interview & manage techies. If they were inexperienced I would just ascertain that they could think logically. Most subsequently excelled at any task I gave them, even in a language new to them.

Also, just look at this housing mess.. not a lot of smart going on there.

Good point!

Yes the fun work place is what came along. Microsoft however found Bill Gates in the office from morning until night every day because he felt his company was changing the world. It was expected that every one who worked at Microsoft be as passionate. Yes, people hated it, but they were getting stock in the company at the same time. After Windows 95 it was apparent that those stocks were worth something.

The change the world part of the culture you can debate. All I know is that more people have access to Microsoft because of out reach done directly by Bill Gates. In my opinion his out reach for H1B employees is more about sharing technology than making money.

That’s possible. People I know who work for either actually get wages that most people in the US would be quite happy to take home, and that is above market average. I misinterpreted the ‘work without pay’, by which David probably meant no overwork compensation rather than low wages (which I understood). Overpay in IT is rare, (though my wife gets it), but then again, wages are generally high.

So Google came along and introduced a culture where working is fun and well salaried.

erm… Google pays less than Microsoft. At least so I have heard from the people who received offers from both companies.

And anyone who isn’t a money obsessed 80ties-style yuppy hates that. So Google came along and introduced a culture where working is fun and well salaried. I hope that’ll be the future. And the future is already there in much of Europe, where people uphold a comparable productivity while working shorter hours (often less than 40 a week, even in IT) for decent pay, good benefits and offices without cubicles. It’s just a matter of acknowledging that talent is something to cherish, and hopefully more companies will follow Google’s lead.

I was talking with an older, retired, Microsoft employee from the 1990s today and we were remembering that Microsoft was built on a work ethic that included sixty hour weeks. People were brought from around the country as well as around the world to live and work on the campus.

H1B workers have a reputation for long hours without pay. It was the Microsoft culture. What I think though is that many foriegn workers will return to thier countries of origin where they will have western experience.

UW does a lot of world class research, and yet is ranked 41th in the US according to USNews. Other countries have a very small number of top quality universities. That’s why the cost of outsourcing was rising so much. In places like India the demand for well educated people exceeded the current capacity of the educational system. When you run into an H1B with dubious knowledge, it’s probably because they went to one of the many CS schools where they don’t get to use a computer until the final year and the instructors have little knowledge themselves.

I’m an H1B, so is my wife (well, Green card now, but started out on H1B), and we bough a home this year, and now we’re spending my inheritance money in doing remodeling. Someone has to keep the economy rolling! ;-)

How much higher must it get? It is already one of the better paying professions out there, at least if you have a bit of experience. Sure, if you throw a lot of money at it, you’ll get more people in (though not necessarily the motivated people you need, but that’s another story). But you can ‘fix’ any problem like that can’t you? There is a limit to what is a reasonable wage for any given job, and going much above that simply destroys your competitiveness and encourages boom/ bust cycles in the profession.

“There’s no shortage of smart in this country.”

There’s no shortage of that in many parts of the world, and America actually does poorly when it comes to education compared to many industrialized countries. It just has a few great universities and is a popular immigration destination for talent to make up for the dismal educational standards in much of the country. The new administration’s plans look hopeful, but the US has way to go catching up.

“True. Which is why I don’t blame MSFT for doing the H1B thing. I’d just like them (and other companies) to say they want to remove the H1B cap because they want to lower wages, not because there’s not enough qualified US citizens.”

They won’t say that because it is not the truth. H1-B enables them to pick out the best talent world-wide. If you need simple work to be cheap, you just outsource/ offshore it. Again, I’m sure some companies misuse H1-B by exploiting loopholes, but I don’t believe for a second that this is the general practice. And then my own experience hiring people… we put a marketing position out and we get 50 resumes in a day. For a software engineering position – with comparable pay, and interesting subject matter and technologies – we get maybe 5 a day, of which 4 lack a cover letter, have resumes that are obviously not tailored for the job they are applying to, and lack the relevant experience that we asked for (and we weren’t really being that specific either… for instance someone with only Visual Basic experience when we’re asking for Java).

I don’t know about that. Even if CS jobs started paying enough money to tempt away the business majors, I think the math and science knowledge of our high school grads wouldn’t keep up with demand.

Also, just look at this housing mess.. not a lot of smart going on there.

This xenophobic ranting against H1Bs has got to stop. We earn as much as citizens in a vast majority of cases (yes, there are always those who work around laws) but more importantly we contribute to local economies. Buying cars, going out to eat, and so on and so forth.

I’m an H1B. I am in the market to for a house in the Seattle area and will probably buy one this year. If I’m summarily sent home, and factoring for what I said above — who will buy that home?

If that’s true, why does your company hire them?– Euro

They were making $10/hr. The contracting company that was hiring them was billing them out at $35/hr. They were stacking these guys up like cords of wood in nearby apartments (about 4/room). The H1Bs were happy to do it, because every penny went home.

Don’t get me wrong, about 10% of these guys knew what they were doing and could have been competitive with their 1st world equivalents, but the vast majority were thick as stone and were harmful because you never knew if they “got it” until the rubber met the road.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2008663708_webstarbucks23.html

Euro: Neither would there be a shortage of people who can buy 600k+ houses. And competing globally is difficult enough even with today’s wages.

True. Which is why I don’t blame MSFT for doing the H1B thing. I’d just like them (and other companies) to say they want to remove the H1B cap because they want to lower wages, not because there’s not enough qualified US citizens. CS admissions at American universities would skyrocket if the pay of IT jobs was high enough. There’s no shortage of smart in this country.

Yer crazy I tell ya…crrrrrrazy. Just remember, a couple trillion more and housing will double from where it is now and everything will cost more even if wages don’t increase.

Silly bubbleheads, wages have nothing to do with prices. Everybody will be able to charge what they want even though nobody can afford it.

People will spend all that money they don’t have like crazy. Even if they only spend it in their imaginations, prices in the real world will rise so fast that we’ll all go hungry.

Except homeowners of course!

How do I know? Because some Realtor said so.

go read Krugman’s blog, its very good economics material. right now the Fed and Govt are fighting to keep things at 0%, and Krugman is advocating trillions in new debt spending to prevent a deflationary spiral from occurring. we are long past the point where Fed stimulus might overshoot and cause rampant inflation. despite massive amounts of stimulus and Fed action we are still deflating with no end in sight. if deflationary expectations take hold (and they are starting to, banks and people are hording cash instead of lending it) then look out below.

Neither would there be a shortage of people who can buy 600k+ houses. And competing globally is difficult enough even with today’s wages.

If they did pump that much back in, then house and stock prices would go back to where they were, close to double where they are now. They can’t do that, but what money they can borrow they want to inject directly into the economy fast, so the change will be very rapid. And then after that we will have ongoing deficits while we have pay the interest on the federal debt, plus the new baseline in spending created by the stimulus programs.

Cris@167 – Mostly local people I guess as I am not sure if you can be a contractor with foreign work visa.

Yeah, that is what people think. There are many contractors at MS (and I am sure at other large tech companies) who will have almost all their employees working on a foreign visa. The people who employ these contractors are the real vultures. They will not provide any support to their “employees”, take their pound of flesh from the paycheck, and oh yes the so called employee has to look for jobs on their own inside MS.

The only reason these vultures are in business is because with huge companies the size of MS, they will only have a certain small number of big contractors they are willing to work with. Thus, X is the big contractor who subcontracts the work to company Y, Y to some smaller company W and then finally the poor “employee” Z who is actually doing the work. X will charge 100 $/hr, Y will take 30% and so will W and the employee is left with the bones.

That is how people conclude foreign visas are leading to lower wages (because they only see what Z is getting). In reality the position itself is paid well, but its the middlemen who make all the money.

period.

I believe The Tim has brought up the fact that Seattle aerospace experience isn’t mentoring the youth [its full of average 50+ aged workers], eventually we’ll forget how to develop aircraft after the older crop leaves, assuming if they sell anymore anyway….so putting only youth in charge is a good way to make your product quality stink and your sales plummet.

It isn’t just arospace or computers; its head nursing, teaching, medical physicians, etc, etc….our companies and government agencies got so cheap, they forgot we needed experience and youth to make a future.

As my article on H-1Bs referenced; the rest of you New World Order enthusiasts may think you’re immune; but even brain surgeons, immigration attorneys, etc, etc are all on the wage chopping block; as we trade future value for short term profit, or lately, massive stock losses due to shoddy products/services not selling.

Have any of you tried to carry a normal business communication over the phone with someone with an accent you can’t understand [and they can't understand you either]? I know, its good for business, the NWO hardliners will allege…lol….not my business, I wouldn’t hire anyone who couldn’t be clearly understood to do communications, its clear company suicide. Have any of you called the Microsoft help lines overseas….I have and it was horrifying.

That lack of customer service [and brainless management] alone would send me to Apple or anyone else that had a clear communications tech support that understood and I could understand them.

Now, let’s get on with the bubble topic, how are NWO wage deterioration overpopulation wishes [if further implemented] going to affect RE prices? How about collapses to 1980s levels?

dls: A good doctor/salesperson/cop/housewife/etc doesn’t care about the insides of their computer (even if they do understand the technical stuff). To them the computer is an appliance and they just want it to work.

So true! If they knew enough the economy might suffer more, since the cop is paying more for 4GB of memory and never using more than 2GB.

I believe that Apple has a better understanding that the majority of users are non-techies. Apple provides plenty of real-time live help and support for it’s customers …

Didn’t know that!

Euro: Like I said, good pay, interesting job. 200K would be ridiculous of course, but I take it you were joking.

It was an extreme example to make the point that there is not necessarily a shortage of qualified workers like you say. 200K is ridiculous to you or me only because we both know that someone will take less. But if you offered 200K only to local workers, you’d have no shortage of qualified applicants. MSFT could tap its contractor pool anytime to get qualified local people for full-time jobs. It does that sometimes, but not always because it costs more than alternatives like H1Bs.