If you have a job, no trouble making payments and are just worried about the future, then I would say you are part of a large club. Some in your club might be choosing to sell at this time, but they may be being very short sighted. The reality is that as Dave Losh points out, you are quite a bit of money into this thing already. 5 years of 30 down, or 1/6 of the way towards a paid off mortgage.

I know we are not used to thinking in these terms anymore but when one buys a house it’s a long-term proposition. It will always cost more than renting an equivalent home, but at the end of your mortgage term, you will own it outright. There’s benefit to that. You’re paying not just for the value you get out of it today (place to live, etc.) but also the future value of owning it. I think a lot of people are acting kind of hastily worried about today, tomorrow and the next couple of years, and are costing themselves over the long run 5, 10 or 15 years from now. I can’t blame anyone for thinking this way – it’s scary times we are living in – but living and making decisions out of fear means you will almost always be running with the herd, which is the surest way there is of losing money.

RE: David Losh @ 132 –

I’m not really at risk of losing the home… just more thinking aloud at this point. This of course assumes I don’t get laid off and or burn thru my cash reserves at the same time. I suppose w/ my above scenarios there are some moral hazards to consider as well.

I completely agree with David on this ( hey, it happens)..
You bought the house in ‘05 rather than 07, so that protects you to some degree, and you’ve lived in the home for almost four years? Are you comfortable living in it? Does it feel like home? Can you currently afford the payments without a lot of strain? If you kept your job, would you feel the urge to move for any other reason?
If all that’s true, then you have to consider just how bad do you truly think things are going to get.
Like David said, the improvements to your house that you’ve made is money already spent, and likely added some value to your house.
If you think that prices are going to bottom another 10% down from here, then it’s probably not worth it to sell, rent another place, and then buy in a few years.
I’ve been an investor in stocks for 15+ years, and I’ve made some mistakes along the way. One of them has been to wait too long to sell as a stock is falling in price, or sell just before the danged thing rebounds., or trade too frequently.
I’m not suggesting that the housing market is anything like that.
My personal opinion is that we’ve already seen between 1/2 and 2/3 of the total price decline we’re going to see. But I’ve been wrong before.

I’m not really at risk of losing the home… just more thinking aloud at this point. This of course assumes I don’t get laid off and or burn thru my cash reserves at the same time. I suppose w/ my above scenarios there are some moral hazards to consider as well.

You have cash in the work done.

Hold until something happens. Trying to out think your lender or the market place is a losing proposition.

You already spent the money, it would be smart to pay more now at least until next September. The end of this spring selling season will set the entire market place in stone.

Congress is debating “cram downs” on Thursday and it may change the way banks think about values.

Also see if you can have a roomate in the mean time. Something is better than nothing.

This is what getting along looks like.

I’m grateful to be able to come here and say a little piece or a lot as the case may be.

Ray Pepper was run off other blogs, but found himself a place here and it has turned out alright.

What about sniglet? Or Eleua? Starting out they were way out there and now they seem normal.

It’s a learning curve.

It’s a good and beautiful thing.

I do get tired of listening to people complain about taxes, feeling that they are being taken advantage of and that others are somehow reaping some big windfall.

I’ll contrast a friend and myself:

My wife and I both work.
Friend works, wife doesn’t.

Me 1 child put through public school.
Friend puts 3 children through public school.

My wife and I own 3 homes because we have worked and saved. We live in 1 and rent the other 2. No mortgage on any of them. Just got our tax bill a couple of days ago that totaled $9897.

Friend has a home that he is still paying for pays around $2500 per year in property taxes.

I have served in the U.S. Army.
Friend believes in a strong military but has never served.
Since my wife and I both work we also get the opportunity to pay more in taxes to support the military. This concept can be applied to everything else that the gov. spends our tax dollars on.

Friend had a son that passed away a little over a year ago. The 3 grandchildren are now collecting over $2K per month from Socialist Security. They are also attending public schools. The state contributes around $7300 per year, per student, of our tax money to educate them. We’re talking around $50K per year for these children of public funds.

Maybe we can agree that this is a moral failing on their part and all they need to do is work a bit harder and pull themselves up by their bootstraps.

Anyway, long story short, my friend doesn’t consider himself a socialist, and in fact despises that concept. The reality of life is, is that he and his consume a great deal of public resources, and he and his contribute very little.

Most of the low tax, small government whiners that I know fit this profile. I consider them to be little more than hogs at the public trough that are very protective of that trough thinking themselves to be the only ones worthy of feeding at that trough.

I’ve seen that same sort attitude with regards to the military. These people are big believers in a strong military and support the wars. Yet they and theirs don’t serve and are bitter as hell that they have to pay for it. They consider themselves to be heros because they go shopping and might have a support the troops bumper sticker.

Most of the low tax, small government crowd that I know are nothing more than hypocrites.

You read every response?

Welcome to Seattle Bubble. We’re pretty good at uh…getting off topic.

:^)

It all concerns me, because as long as we fight amongst ourselves we will never get together to retake our country from corrupt politicians and bankers. They are hoping you continue your squabbling and snide comments. While they steal your tax money and go the bank.

The difference in greener pasture countries is the black money economy. You pay according to who is in control of your little corner of the world. You pay or die. It’s simple and straight forward.

Here in the United States you have the ability to be in control of your little world. We have guns, are allowed by law to have guns, and can use guns according to a specific set of rules. Shoot for the feet or knee caps if you’re wondering.

As Herman points out we can make as much or as little money as we choose. What I was pointing out is that you choose to pay taxes or you can build up your expenses, or buy more hard assets. Amway anyone?

This is a great country to be a maverick. I’ve been a lot of places, really enjoy the Third World, but for fun, excitement, and security I love America.

I largely agree with most of your Libertarian leaning posts. But I have no interest in bringing it into this blog. Sometimes I get caught up, but I have been trying to limit my interactions here to Seattle RE relevant topics… Just saying that you might not be as alone as you think…

By Jbeans @ 117:

I’m not saying that people cannot and do not successfully expatriate from the US, but to think that you are going to simply decamp for greener pastures is foolish.

I have not worked outside the US to-date, and I’m sure it’s a difficult process to emigrate. There will come a point, though, where even people like myself will be forced to look for greener pastures. While I don’t want to understate the difficulty in finding and moving into such pastures (if it was easy, most productive people would be gone already), there will come a point where it’s a decision between keeping up the good fight against impossible odds Dagny-style, or striking out on one’s own Galt-style; and I’d like to think at that point I would not continue to provide the sanction of the victim. Or, to put it a less noble way, there will come a point where I’m sick of being told it’s patriotic to give all my hard-earned wealth to the looters so they can squander it and denounce me as “rich scum”, and giving them the proverbial finger will be worth the necessary sacrifices.

Can you name some countries you see as “greener pastures”? Where do you think you can live productively and pay lower tax rates than the US?

I have heard the newest version of Godwin’s law is based on Ayn Rand. It certainly seems to be the rallying cry of late.

I agree with you there. I think these bailouts are a wasteful debt burden to leave to future generations, but I’m not going anywhere. I’ve traveled a lot outside the US, although I’ve only lived one summer abroad, and I’m extremely grateful for what we have here, even when I think the government is making mistakes.

Who knows what situation we’ll be in if a true depression hits (sorry folks, we’re not even close right now.. ask your grandparents how bad things were during the great depression.. my grandmother hoarded jars of lard for decades, just in case she needed to make her own soap again someday). However, our political/economic situation would have to get a lot worse before I would consider jumping ship.

It’s funny how the minority political viewpoint talks about emigration whenever they are not in power. Many liberals claimed to want to leave (and some did) under republican control from 2000-2006, and now we are hearing about conservatives wanting to leave. I remember hearling lots of conservative voices shouting “love it or leave it” back then. I’m not saying that, nor would I ever, but threats to leave the country because you don’t like the current politics are nothing new, and will probably pass in time.

The same as with current taxation, people seem to have a short-term view of everything, and even less knowledge of the tax structures of the rest of the developed world.

But if 50% is gonna happen, we’ll see it elsewhere first, such as the Case Shiller 10 & 20 city indexes.

I’m not saying that people cannot and do not successfully expatriate from the US, but to think that you are going to simply decamp for greener pastures is foolish.

I have not worked outside the US to-date, and I’m sure it’s a difficult process to emigrate. There will come a point, though, where even people like myself will be forced to look for greener pastures. While I don’t want to understate the difficulty in finding and moving into such pastures (if it was easy, most productive people would be gone already), there will come a point where it’s a decision between keeping up the good fight against impossible odds Dagny-style, or striking out on one’s own Galt-style; and I’d like to think at that point I would not continue to provide the sanction of the victim. Or, to put it a less noble way, there will come a point where I’m sick of being told it’s patriotic to give all my hard-earned wealth to the looters so they can squander it and denounce me as “rich scum”, and giving them the proverbial finger will be worth the necessary sacrifices.

Of course, if we could just get all the voters to really understand why socialism doesn’t work, and get all the socialist idiots away from the controls of the country, the whole unfortunate end-game might be preventable. It’s my hope that in some small part, blogging about it and trying to educate people, if even a tiny bit, might help sway the country away from that path. Expatriation might be a painful but necessary last-step as the country disintegrates, but as Capt. Malcolm Reynolds might say, “it’s not exactly Plan A”.

RE: Angie @ 61 – I know, for example, that if tax rates on the high end get to, say, 80% (from about 55% in California currently), I’m going to be looking for another country to live and work in; there’s no great reason why I need to be in America to do my job, and there are other countries with less aggressive looters running the government.

…I love the idea of America as a free country, but I don’t love it enough to suffer under the tyranny of looters, especially when there are other options available.

Curious — have you ever lived and worked outside of the US? The notion that you are just going to up and leave to work elsewhere is pretty naive. Let’s assume that you want to live in a first-world country, with access to good health care, education, food supply, transportation, etc. First, good luck getting a job — you’d better have a unique set of skills that can’t easily be found in a citizen of that country, otherwise you won’t get a work permit. No work permit, no job. No job, no residency permit. Unless you are independently wealthy (and can prove it), most countries will not allow you to take up residence without a job. And if you do happen to secure a job that pays enough to live a lifestyle similar to what you enjoy in the US, you’ll be paying more tax than you do here (and not just income tax — sales taxes are far higher in many other countries, and some countries have a wealth tax above and beyond income tax).

And then there’s the cultural aspect of trying to work in another country. How are your foreign language skills? How do you feel about it taking three times as long to accomplish anything as you are used to? Try working where workers have FAR more rights than they do here (good luck firing that guy who drinks on his lunch hour and takes a sick day once a week — and if you do manage to get him fired, enjoy paying him six to nine months’ worth of salary for the privilege of getting to do so).

I’m not saying that people cannot and do not successfully expatriate from the US, but to think that you are going to simply decamp for greener pastures is foolish.

I’m sure you’ve gathered that I have some experience living/working outside the US. I’d do it again — for all the stress and frustration, it was still worth it and there is much to love and appreciate (and learn) about other systems of government and other cultures. But perhaps the greatest gift I gained from the years I spent outside the US was a more objective view of what it is like to be American and to live in this country. I don’t believe you would find what you are looking for anywhere else.

For what I pay in taxes, I should get at least a thank you note and a gift basket from the American Taxpayer every year. I’m one of the government’s best (paying) customers. When I get back from a trip, I should be greeted at customs with a “Thank you for your support and patronage of our system, Mr. Herman. We appreciate your hard work and contribution.”

Wow, you just come across as a huge tool. But if it makes you feel better, please accept my heartfelt thanks for paying your taxes Herman. I don’t know where we’d be without you.

RE: 98115_Renter @ 83 –
We already have privitized health care which is an extreme burden on the entire population that pays into health care, but we don’t object to that.
.

RE: David Losh @ 88 – RE: David Losh @ 88 – RE: 98115_Renter @ 113 –

Trust me, many of us do complain about the extreme inefficiency of our health care system. It’s a complete drain on the economy.

PS, why don’t more pro-housing deflation people demand an end to the mortgage interest deduction? This is just one more blantant bubble inflater IMO.

From the US I get nothing but threats and put-downs. .

This is where your argument is most flawed. You are given the opportunity to be as wealthy as you claim to be. You are given free education for your children, safe roads to drive on, a police force and fire protection, military protection of the system that allows you to make your money, and far more. Yet you claim that you get nothing for your hard earned tax dollars. That’s becuase you take this country for granted.

Unless you want to live in Antigua or somewhere crazy, your taxes would be higher in almost any industrialized nation.

As for your other question, I don’t think you can equate participation in private insurance policies to government. We do that of our own free will in due consideration of risk vs. cost. Government has its own motivations for controlling, er, I mean insuring us.

I have to say, the bubble crowd really surprised me tonight. I thought this was an intellectual and libertarian-leaning blog. Not so.

Many posts today demanded that we contribute to the level of our ability, and many more demanded that they receive according to their need.

Great discussion, nonetheless.

Since you brought up the topic…I’m just curious about a few things.

1. What is it that you do that earns you $250k and has you away from your family for 6 months out of the year? Just curious. It appears to be some sort of commission based job/sales as you say your income is down 30%.

2. You state that you have children in daycare. Where are they going to attend K-12? Will it be a public school or are they already slotted for a New England prep school?

I don’t have children…but I didn’t mind paying taxes when I was a homeowner, of which a portion went to the public school system. In fact, I’d be willing to bet that if more parents took an active role in their child’s education (rather than being gone 6 months out of the year chasing the almighty dollar…or whatever it is parents might do that prevents them from involving themselves) perhaps we wouldn’t be taxed so much for education and the kids might actually learn rather than memorize. (Of course, there is too much pork in education with fancy-shmancy foyers and granite countered reception areas in so many schools across America.)

3. You have insurance. Have you had any claims? If you get into an accident (auto insurance), your house burns down (homeowners insurance), get cancer (health insurance)…did the premiums you paid cover your losses or were your losses borne by the greater group of insureds through their premiums?

What if you or a family member becomes seriously disabled? I guess you can take care of them on a $250k salary…but what about the 97% of Americans that aren’t so lucky? How about the ones at the bottom who need help the most? I guess http://www.Dignitas.ch can take care of that pesky disability problem eh?

Sounds like insurance of any type is a form of Socialism/Communism.

Perhaps you might want to consider canceling your policies? Think of the savings!

Why would your kids need coverage anyways? Doesn’t “an apple a day” work?

Why would you even want to buy into such a nasty socialistic program?

If you ever happen to be hit by an uninsured motorist who doesn’t have two pennies to rub together you’ll be glad there are some things that others are willing to pony up for in order to help you out.

Enjoy your delusions that are anchored in false premises.

A few of the people on here complaining about taxes are priceless.

I’m here to complain about the attitude and the bailout culture moreso than the actual taxes. I also resent being designated wealthy and excluded from the group known as “working”. $250k is not tremendous by Seattle’s standards, and I work my ass off.

In this globalized world there are hundreds of millions of people that will more than gladly take their place.

Don’t you see? I will be replaced, but not by a US taxpayer. That means a loss of US tax revenue.

When have you ever shown any appreciation?

As I mentioned, I served active duty military for three years (plus five reserves). I did it out of a sense of duty. My grandfathers both fought in US wars and I felt like I owed the debt to them. I made very little money there, but I have always been restrained with my finances and started saving. I started my new profession after that.

Thank you as well for your service, though I think you could be more courteous to a fellow soldier.

Will you be happy, Herman et al, when your home is worth 10% of it’s former value and you have no job anymore?

Are you kidding? I’d love it if home prices declined 90%. I’d buy five more. That is exactly what the government can do to get my money out of my mattress. Let the market correct to bring the investors back.

Since the government needs my money to be spent, and I won’t do it, their plan is to confiscate it and spend it themselves.

I’ll admit that I was bitter during the bubble days because my common sense prevented me from upgrading to a better home. I was locked out of the market by my own sensibility. That’s what brought me to this blog. I think I’m not alone.

Honestly I don’t think the government can arrest the decline, and I’m more likely to move or stop working than pay for the recovery, so I do think it will work out.

Never read Atlas Shrugged, can you cover the high points?

I gave my country seven years as a rifleman in the U.S. Army and National Guard. I got very little in return. I’ll tell you a little secret, nobody cares! That would be people like you. I didn’t see you at the airport when I came home. The only one that was there was my father. This is America, nobody cares.

When have you ever shown any appreciation? Never! You and your selfish right wing nut jobs can only think about your’selves. Get a life Herman, you’re nothing special!

Nick, and others of your ilk, we don’t need you, you can be replaced in a heartbeat and no one will miss you. On your way out of the country you can take George Bush, Dick Cheney, Rush Limbaug, and Bill O’Riley with you. The world and America don’t need you and you won’t be missed!

Pretty rare to see someone on the Intarwebs who actually needs to read Atlas Shrugged, but…

We don’t need you or want you here. Leave now. I’ll drive you and yours to the airport.

Get off of it! Without America you would be nothing! Your hubris knows no bounds. Why do you hate America? Be thankful for what you have. What have you ever done for this country other than going to work and trying to earn a fat paycheck? The only one you are looking out for is yourself!

A few of the people on here complaining about taxes are priceless. They think that they are the one that made America what it is. Ha!

We don’t need them.

There are hundreds of millions of people in this country and world more than ready willing and able to take their place. America has provided these malcontents the opportunity to prosper. They can be replaced in a heartbeat.

America doesn’t need them – They need America.

If they want to quit work or move out of the country then I say so what. We don’t need them. Get out now or quit. In this globalized world there are hundreds of millions of people that will more than gladly take their place. They have nothing to offer and in return they can expect nothing!

For what I pay in taxes, I should get at least a thank you note and a gift basket from the American Taxpayer every year. I’m one of the government’s best (paying) customers. When I get back from a trip, I should be greeted at customs with a “Thank you for your support and patronage of our system, Mr. Herman. We appreciate your hard work and contribution.”

I mean, I get thank you notes from charities when I send donations for far less. And if I gave as much to them I’d get my name on a brick and a seat at the head table at the luncheon.

From the US I get nothing but threats and put-downs. Instead I have to put up with some of you lot with your hands out telling me it’s not enough and I should be thankful, and by the way screw you. We messed up and Herman you’ve got to pay for it.

I can do my work from anywhere in the world with an airport. Many of you have no idea how overpriced the American worker is. You’re going to see global stratification of wages. SoftwareEngineer isn’t going to have to worry about immigrants coming here to take his job. They’ll take it from where they live.

One of my customers said to me, “Regarding our operations in Seattle, the employees there are the most expensive in the world.” If you’re going to ask for five times the wage of an Indian, you have to be ready to prove you’re five times as good, every single year.

America is not in a strong negotiating position right now with its productive citizens and business owners.

Maybe you should have read the article first. Obama’s plan to effectively increase capital gains taxes will cause money to leave the market now while lower tax rates are in 4effect. There are plenty of other places to invest besides U.S. stocks that offer long term growth and security.

You are missing my previous point that the investment merits of US stocks and the taxation of US investors have nothing to do with each other. Whether company X is a good investment going forward depends on company X, not the tax status of investors in the company who may be anywhere in the world and who may be individuals, tax-exempt entities, or entities such as mutual or hedge funds. Capital markets are global. If a US company is a better investment than a foreign company it will attract capital – from both US citizens and foreigners – on its own merits. Capital gains taxation on US citizens has nothing to do with it. US citizens pay the same capital gains taxes on stocks whether they are US or foreign – so why would a change in US capital gains taxation have any effect on where US stock investors put their money? It does not change the relative merits of US versus foreign stocks for the US investor.

You are also neglecting my point that proportionately very few US stocks are actually held by individuals, but rather are held by non-taxable entities such a pension plans and IRA’s, or by mutual funds and hedge funds that are not sensitive to individual taxation rates.

You point about the effects of different income tax policies in adjoining US jurisdictions is a valid one, but has nothing to do with my point that the attractiveness of US stocks as an investment versus foreign stocks has nothing to do with US personal taxation of capital gains

Well if you don’t like paying taxes why don’t you try to pay none ;-)

Are we actually advocating a progressivity feature in the tax code that will target the upper tax bracket so hard that the velocity of money will slow even further, while at the same time putting the majority of Americans in the position of being net drawers of free government cheese?

Please ’splain how this is remotely sustainable.

Commie is as commie does, in the words of one Southern gentleman. Just read David Tosh’s crapola…..

here’s an example: “I’d much rather pay my government to work for me than a corporation to work against me.”

Straight out of the woodwork, indeedy!

Mark, can I bring Ann Coulter with me?

“The idiocy on display here is simply breathtaking.” Yes, in a Seinfeld’s friend’s baby kind of way.

Apparently reading comprehension wasn’t part of your great education, Angie didn’t start down that road she just called the guy on it.

Hear hear

If you have x number of kids in school then you should pay the tuition out of your paycheck. Same thing with military spending. This country spends $600 Billion per year on the military. That comes out to $2000 per citizen. You can apply this concept to everything else that that the government provides, schools, police, fire, courts, prisons etc.

This is the way that real life works. We all pay the same price for a movie ticket, car, food from the grocery store, etc. To work the system any other way is not fair. In other words, someone ends up paying more than someone else. Taxes are all about angling for an advatange.

Unfortuantely life does not work this way. Some people choose to have more children than others, some people serve time in the military and others don’t, some people at the bottom of the food chain can’t pay their own way.

And then we have people like Nick and others. This is a very rich country. Our ancestors have provided us with a first world infrastructre. We have schools for our children, courts to uphold laws, a military that ensures our safety and guarntees that the worlds natural resources continue to flow in our direction, homeland security, clean air and water, police and fire, top notch universities, reliable transportation, etc.

In other words we have systems in place that provides for the ability of our citizens to prosper, and prosper we do. We are the envy of the world. It allows for the accumulation of vast wealth.

And what do people like Nick have to offer in return? Nothing! They want the benefits that America has provided them and have nothing to offer in return. Zero, zip, nada, zilch.

To Nick I have the following offer. You let me know when you want to leave this country. I will be more than happy to take you to the airport after you have bought your one way ticket out. You won’t be missed.

In this world of globalization you can easily be replaced. We don’t need parasites that only live off of what society has to offer and have nothing to offer in return. There are many millions of people in the world that can easily take their place. America won’t have any problem attracting immigrants that are smarter, harder working, better educated, and are more willing to contribute to the common good for the opportunity that America provides.

Nick, and others of your ilk, we don’t need you, you can be replaced in a heartbeat and no one will miss you. On your way out of the country you can take George Bush, Dick Cheney, Rush Limbaug, and Bill O’Riley with you. The world and America don’t need you and you won’t be missed!

For those of you who do own homes and complain about the bailouts, I’d like to know how you would feel if the banking system was allowed to collapse, and nothing was done about foreclosures. Will you be happy, Herman et al, when your home is worth 10% of it’s former value and you have no job anymore?

What makes you think we are not going there without bailouts? I am of the opinion that the bailouts are the driving force to make the situation worse than if the .gov just let the market take out the guilty parties and shoot them.

Anyone, and I mean ANYONE, that thinks any of these bailouts will be a net-positive for the economy is either the direct beneficiary of a bailout, or too stupid to be out in public without adult supervision.

FYI…government intervention started when the DJIA was in the 14000s. We are closing in on half that. The more they bail, the poorer you get.

Get that through your head.

You kids today don’t remember, but yes that was a common thought and deed that was expressed in th 1970s. Professionals would whine about being overly taxed and why sould they work more if they just had to pay more taxes.

I don’t remember the exact tax burden or the cut off but it was a big topic of conversation.

The Herman guy sounds like one of those professionals. He makes money within a tax bracket and that’s it. He’s a wage earner with the wage earner mentality. You would be the same if the tax burden was on you.

There is a struggle between government and business. Who pays what for who. We already have privitized health care which is an extreme burden on the entire population that pays into health care, but we don’t object to that.

Government pays for roads which directly benefits the trucking industry and that seems to be OK.

It’s the hand outs people seem to object to. I object to corporate welfare. I don’t like paying five times the price for everything so a bunch of college kids can get those good paying jobs.

I resent paying for over educated dilitants who do nothing but come up with complex formulas about nothing that has to do with anything. I don’t like the virtual reality industry because it is a waste of resources. Let’s not talk about the credit, financial, and stock markets that we all pay for.

I would prefer to give my money to elected politicians than corporate raiders.

As far as bail outs, corporations bail each other out every day and we all pay for that. That seems OK , Why? Why is OK to pay $5 for $1 worth of cereal just so a whole bunch of colege graduates can have good paying jobs?

Why is there a junior manager, of the department manager, of the store manager, of the regional manager, of the district manager, of the corporate managers jobs in between that box of cereal and me?

We talk about bloated government and ignore bloated corporate over sight or lack there of because we pay for people to do nothing on the job.

I’d much rather pay my government to work for me than a corporation to work against me.

Man you’re sick.