Please vote in this poll using the sidebar.
Is Washington State's economy inherently stronger than the nation as a whole?
- Yes (24%, 40 Votes)
- No (66%, 112 Votes)
- Maybe / Don't Know (10%, 18 Votes)
Total Voters: 170
This poll will be active and displayed on the sidebar through 08.08.2009.
The Tim » Aug 2, 2009 at 8:00 am
From the June 2009 Washington State Economic and Revenue Forecast (pdf):
Given that Microsoft is laying off 5,000 people this year (their first layoff ever) and Boeing is cutting 10,000, I don’t really buy the “strength in aerospace and software” argument, personally.
Kary L. Krismer » Aug 2, 2009 at 8:12 am
RE: The Tim @ 1 – I wouldn’t be so sure about MSFT. I’d be interested in seeing their numbers on people employed, because I’ve heard that there still is hiring going on. The 5,000 could be just clearing some dead wood. They might only end up being down a thousand, or up a thousand.
Smaller software companies probably are hurting quite a bit. New sources of capital are rather tough to come by in this economy. I own the Dash GPS and they couldn’t find financing, cut staff and eventually sold the Rim (Blackberry). They aren’t local, but that type of thing probably is happening locally.
Ira Sacharoff » Aug 2, 2009 at 8:38 am
Seattle has traditionally had a very cyclical, feast or famine economy. Some folks who haven’t been here very long think that Seattle can only be an area that has wealthy people, and is very strong economically.
So I don’t think we’re inherently stronger economically than the rest of the nation, or weaker. But certainly more volatile. I also think the immediate future doesn’t look very pretty.
Kary L. Krismer » Aug 2, 2009 at 8:45 am
RE: Ira Sacharoff @ 3 – Well part of that was Boeing being a bigger influence on the local economy back then. Boeing is clearly a cyclical company, and if they employ a large percentage of your area’s work force, then your economy will be very cyclical.
Plastic Bags » Aug 2, 2009 at 9:07 am
I had to go with maybe because I am a new person here (in Seattle less than one year.) From my own un-scientific observations, it seems to me that the whole mindset about spending is different here. I wouldn’t be surprised if someone spent their last dollar on a Starbucks coffee. Everyone at my job thinks their retirement plan is a place where you can get a cheap loan, not a vehicle for saving for your future. I don’t think there is much fear about debt because people feel like someone will come and bail them out. Even right now, people are being enticed to overspend on homes with this $8000 tax credit, even though all evidence points to home values declining in the immediate future.
stephanie » Aug 2, 2009 at 9:36 am
Hard for me to judge- I come from Detroit. Coming from my frame of reference, Seattle’s economy is MUCH stronger! Of course that doesn’t mean much…..Detroit doesn’t really have an economy anymore.
stacks » Aug 2, 2009 at 10:31 am
As far as the Microsoft layofffs go, most of those who were laid off have been rehired elsewhere in the company, but a lot of them had to switch from full-time to contractors. So while they are still employed, the loss of benefits amounts to a pretty substantial pay cut. There are still a lot of job openings across the company, but managers are being much more selective, so the result is generally slower hiring.
Groundhogday » Aug 2, 2009 at 10:45 am
The billion dollar question is whether Boeing customers will back out of commitments to buy planes. If the airlines don’t see a meaningful recovery soon, it is hard to see how Boeing won’t take a hit.
On the plus side, as Kary noted, Boeing isn’t the only show in town anymore. I don’t see WA being appreciably better or worse off than the rest of the country.
David Losh » Aug 2, 2009 at 11:09 am
RE: Ira Sacharoff @ 3 –
Seattle has deep roots in wealth. Thousands and thousands of acres of trees kind of wealth.
We look at Boeing, or Microsoft, or Starbucks as big businesses, but they are only a small part of the wealth, the visible wealth, that Seattle has.
We also have the Ports of Seattle and Tacoma, an airport that is growing all the time, and let’s mention the University of Washington.
We have so much wealth that the University has been deeded blocks of the down town core. The significance is that a University is a cash cow. Education is big business for any community. We have the University, the hospital, Seattle Prep, and Seattle University in a swath along 23rd Avenue. Let me also mention Harborview, what used to be Providence, and Seattle Pacific University. That’s a lot of education surrounding a down town core.
For some reason we take the amount of dirt around us for granted. The trees, the amount of water front, the expanse of the I5 corridor all the way to Canada which is another country with a strong economy.
We are the last of the frontier. We are in the center of very old money.
Softwarengineer » Aug 2, 2009 at 12:14 pm
RE: The Tim @ 1 –
MY POINT EXACTLY TIM
Couple that 5000 job butcher axing at M/S with higher paid contractor cuts that aren’t transparent [or talked about on MSM, except are mentioned on your bubble website] and Redmond better get ready for some big RE price cuts. The 787 failure keeps looking worse with wing cracks spreading into the body sections on this summer’s test failures….Boeing’s got some deep defense cuts on the F-22 and FCS too….if they get the Tanker contract, it might make up for the recent cuts, if they get it. The airlines are strapped for cash and I don’t see future orders at Boeing anymore, lots of cancelled ones eliminating any future ones though.
When you think about it, if money is tight, you spend less on vacations and keep your old computer as long as you can.
I hear the best economy states are ones into farming and saving money. That eliminates the Seattle area…LOL.
Rack » Aug 2, 2009 at 12:32 pm
Demand for farmed goods are typically is stable, but PPP, or price per pound, can put farmers out of business. It always takes money to get goods to market, and if there is less money for them at the market but an equal amount of work, there is less food on the table at home.
Whenever someone says ” I hear ….”
It typically means ” I think, but don’t want to take credit for it”.
Oh BTW Boeing will get that tanker contract, it’s just a matter of time.
MacroInvestor » Aug 2, 2009 at 1:05 pm
RE: The Tim @ 1 –
“Given that Microsoft is laying off 5,000 people this year (their first layoff ever) and Boeing is cutting 10,000, I don’t really buy the “strength in aerospace and software” argument, personally. ”
Right on the money (pun intended), Tim.
BTW, Microsoft has always had layoffs. They just didn’t use that term before, or they kept it hush. I personally know 2 10-year employees who got laid off on a moment’s notice. The exec’s saw the quarter was failing short and they pressed the panic button.
Microsoft is not even hiring to replace workers that leave voluntarily. They just force that team to do without. Cost cutting has been a very high priority for Microsoft in recent years, and they will only squeeze harder now.
MacroInvestor » Aug 2, 2009 at 1:14 pm
Let’s not miss the macro picture of Boeing. The Dreamliner marks the point where their strategy shifted to becoming an engineering shop, instead of a manufacturing shop. The whole idea was to design the plane in house, and farm out most of the work to vendors. The long term strategy will have the effect of sharply reducing employment in WA (and perhaps give them leverage to break the union). This will become apparent as the older, locally-built planes phase out and the Dreamliner takes over.
The Dreamliner is nowhere near volume production. Airlines are hurting and financing is difficult. The only reason the orders don’t get canceled now is because they are so far off. The airlines will keep their place in line, until they have to pay up. Watch those orders get canceled shortly before delivery.
I mention this because it relates directly back to the local employment picture and housing demand. If I owned a home or business near Boeing facilities, I would be concerned that 10 years from now the area will resemble Detroit after the autos started bailing out.
Richard » Aug 2, 2009 at 1:34 pm
Washington State’s economy is NOT inherently stronger than the nation as a whole; However, Seattle’s economy is. Like was stated in previous comments, we have the best schools, and the most highly educated populous in the US. This is easy to explain as we in Seattle are better than the rest of the country. Why else would our economy and housing market remain resilient to the global downturn. If anything, remember the 3 most important things:
1) Housing prices never go down in Seattle.
2) It never snows in Seattle. (That white stuff is really ultr high speed “White Rain”)
3) and of course we don’t need to use the 9-11 factor to explain the explainable. We use “Microsoft – Boeing”
b » Aug 2, 2009 at 1:54 pm
It is stronger with very weak underpinnings. The economy is heavily dependent on two companies, Boeing and Microsoft, both of which have no real reason to be here other than historical. When they are doing OK, the area is doing OK. It should make all of us very nervous if we do not diversify the job situation in the area over the next decade or we might end up like Detroit. Living by the grace of a couple of large international companies is a very precarious situation for a metropolitan area. Assuming they will be in business, and in Seattle, forever is folly.
Seattlepilot » Aug 2, 2009 at 2:03 pm
RE: stephanie @ 6 – Fellow, former, Detroit-or:
I find architecture interesting when I travel to midwest and rust belt cities, they are the proof of past prosperity and unbridled optimism. Beautiful buildings all around Detroit, Cleveland, Lexington, ect. ect…… now dead and dying along with Americas production capabilities. Industrial renaissance is now in the hands of the Asians, and we are England struggling with the loss of our economic dominance. Every country/city has a life cycle, and we are now past our prime.
Microsoft is under increasing competition (OpenOffice, Apple, Google), that all great companies eventually surrender to. I see them now struggling to keep up. Mobile Windows, Zune, and Online Search Services. Boeing, a Chicago Company, faces Airbus, and soon China, and will not need the local employment base it now supports. Wage deflation is now under way in all sectors as we continue to compete on fair grounds with Communist/Slave Labor.
I think we are now in a great deflationary, socialistic waiting period. We wait for the next ingenuity that will fuel our economy. Decline will continue till then.
Scotsman » Aug 2, 2009 at 2:07 pm
I read last week that so far this year Boeing has sold 1 (one) plane net of cancellations. What does that mean for future production?
Imagine the world economy as a large pond. Two years ago a load of toxic waste was dumped at the north end, and is slowly diffusing throughout the pond. Sure, Seattle’s at the south end, and hasn’t seen the devastation and kill rates that the other end of the pond has. But it will. And after it does, and governments notice and start doing the right thing, cleaning up, etc. how long does it take to restore the pond? Will it ever be the same? I think the pond is a pretty accurate analogy for the current situation.
Had a busy week and missed checking the usual sites. But Karl put up a great ticker that’s a bit of a reality check on the usual media and government pink pony reporting:
http://market-ticker.org/archives/1280-GDP-In-Pictures-The-Truth.html
Kary L. Krismer » Aug 2, 2009 at 2:13 pm
RE: b @ 14 – How many companies have a reason to be anywhere but for historical? Boeing does need to be near port/rail facilities, but obviously Washington is hardly unique in that regard.
b » Aug 2, 2009 at 2:41 pm
RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 16 – Not many, that is sort of the point. We basically have two companies which hold the economy stable here. If one of them left or wound down operations over the course of a decade what would happen to the area? These days major multinationals don’t have much of a reason to be anywhere in particular, but other metro areas are much better guarded against this by having more diverse economic bases. There are only a few major metro areas which are dominated by such a small set of very large companies. We have been lucky that MS/Boeing having been growing and stable for a long time now, but most people around here don’t seem to see it as luck so much as the divine right of Seattle.
Nick » Aug 2, 2009 at 3:58 pm
RE: Seattlepilot @ 16 – having grown up in the Midwest I completely agree. At one point in our history, the city of Detroit had a bigger GDP than most countries. The surrounding cities of the midwest boomed as part suppliers (Visteon/Delphi/Ac-Delco/Allison Transmission/ etc) built their empires.
The engineering and manufacturing of the area eventually even lured aerospace companies to the area. Rolls-Royce.
If you want to go back even one more era, go see the steel mill towns of Pennsylvania. Areas that were once vibrant communities, now ghost towns and ghettos.
All of these places experienced boom & bust cycles. And while the old-time family money may stay put; the younger skilled workers will always follow the current boom. Take a look at how many folks were “imported” to Seattle by Microsoft.
Nick
Bubble Watcher » Aug 2, 2009 at 6:26 pm
RE: MacroInvestor @ 12 – and RE: stacks @ 7 –
I’m interested in both of your comments about Microsoft’s layoffs and rehirings. Can you explain how you know the information you mention, and whether it’s based on solid company knowledge (& from what sources), or just individual anecdotes? Please elaborate.
Kary L. Krismer » Aug 2, 2009 at 7:30 pm
RE: b @ 19 – I guess Amazon, Starbucks, Paccar, Alaska Airlines, Drugstore.com, and Nordstrom don’t count somehow? Not to mention healthcare and government positions.
But my point was, there are very few companies anywhere in the US that have any reason to stay where they are other than historical reasons. We’re just as likely to pick a company up as lose one.
ray pepper » Aug 2, 2009 at 7:55 pm
Without a doubt Seattle is VERY special and the economy is so much stronger then the 3 places I visit every 90 days: Reno/Carson, Sacramento, and Phoenix. From the sheer enormity of jobs (professional and non), health care, schools/college, and wealth we are light years above these other places.
From the salaries my friends in the Boeing basketball league make, to my tech buddies working in Seattle and Bellevue, to all the health care positions available in the Sound I couldn’t imagine living anywhere else on the West Coast during our productive years of age 25-60.
One drive through downtown Bellevue and looking at the cars and the cranes is always eye-popping.
Are we special YES! Are prices going to continue to come down..Yes! Will there be GEMS to buy here…Yes! However, the GEMS I find in the above mentioned cities continue to be staggering. Too bad nobody can afford the rental payments.
b » Aug 2, 2009 at 7:58 pm
RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 22 – They certainly count, but add all of those up and it equals maybe Microsoft, but probably less if I recall the numbers. That is my point. I have lived in several large metro areas around the country and none of them were as lopsided towards just two employers as we are here. For example, I used to live in the Bay Area which is very industry bound (obviously). However, if Intel, Google or another major player were to leave it would hurt but not kill the area. If Boeing or MS were to leave it would basically strangle our economy very quickly – the employment opportunities are that lopsided. I am not trying to "chocolate" on the area, I love it here, but our economy is really one MS/Boeing c-level decision away from very significant problems. I hope that over the next decade our leadership will recognize this and try to significantly diversify the business environment here rather than keep throwing bones at those two heavyweights at the expense of new companies.
Rack » Aug 2, 2009 at 8:02 pm
Expedia, zymogenetics, zillow, Fred Hutch, nintendo, Sanmar, Phillips/ATL, .F5 networks, real networks (dying?), costco, Starbucks, Todd shipyards, Weyerhauser, Skyway luggage, Genie, etc….
.
David Losh » Aug 2, 2009 at 8:05 pm
Weyerhauser. It is the most stable company you can find in this country. It’s wealth is in the land it owns and unlike so much other land owners they actually have a renewable income from the land they own.
Let me also mention that the Boeing family, or the Gates family, or the Nordstrom family all have an interest in the businesses that are here. Unlike many multinational conglomerates the businesses here are a part of the families that live here.
Deep roots.
Kary L. Krismer » Aug 2, 2009 at 8:11 pm
By b @ 24:
I don’t think that’s right, but it was based on a site I was looking at when I wrote that list that I didn’t trust. For one thing, it didn’t mention Weyerhauser which I would guess is part of the top 20, although maybe it’s not mentioned due to subsidiaries spreading out the employment.
Anyway, I suspect the 3rd, 4th and 5th companies are probably larger collectively than whoever is 1st.
Pierce Anon » Aug 2, 2009 at 9:14 pm
RE: David Losh @ 26 –
David,Weyerhaeuser lost $106M in Q2 2009 after continually losing money over the past year. They have been hammered by the Great Recession. Their attempt to diversify into home building hasn’t exactly been a winner either.
Shipping traffic at both the Port of Seattle and Port of Tacoma is down. However, due to geography these will continue to be important assets.
Overall I do believe that the economy here is inherently somewhat stronger than the nation as a whole due to international trade, Boeing, MS, and the military installations. That is part of the reason I live here.
Rack » Aug 2, 2009 at 9:31 pm
Those losses come after years of massive profits.
Scotsman » Aug 2, 2009 at 10:11 pm
RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 22 –
” We’re just as likely to pick a company up as lose one. ”
Probably more likely to lose one, unless companies decide to start moving here for the high taxes, high labor costs, traffic congestion, higher energy costs and pro-union government, not to mention the ease of permitting for new construction and any kind of manufacturing industry. What’s that you say, those are all reasons to avoid Washington and especially the Seattle area? Oops!
Didn’t we already have a discussion about whether or not Seattle was ever going to be a “world-class city?”
Scotsman » Aug 2, 2009 at 10:17 pm
RE: Rack @ 29 –
That past doesn’t count for much in this environment. Weyerhauser moved from a timber company to a development company and caught some of the wave. But now what? The timber grows faster in the SE, so that’s where the new action is, and development won’t be back for some time. I don’t think we’ll be looking to them for major growth prospects going forward.
mukoh » Aug 2, 2009 at 11:03 pm
RE: The Tim @ 1 – Tim, from what I heard net loss at MS amounts to in the range of 500-1000 people. That is dead weight anyways.
Herman » Aug 2, 2009 at 11:45 pm
By David Losh @ 9:
Losh is smoking the bum rock again. You don’t know old money until you’ve been to a Jewish wedding in the Hamptons.
WA state does not have old money. WA state has high tech money. High tech money is better for growth in a competitive environment, old money is better for stability in a protected market. The former describes the world economy today, which is good for us relatively speaking
Wood products are cheaper from Canada or even S America now. Weyerhauser is not a cash cow. Put down the pipe, Losh.
High tech including Aero and Pharma is all this country has left as an engine to pull money in from outside our borders. Manufacturing and extraction are dead. Finance is reeling. There are some global conglomerates where we offer our corporate and brand leadership to the world , but those may be a net wash as they move jobs overseas as fast as they pull profits (and taxes) into the country.
The rest of the US has been called a “massage economy”. Meaning money changes hands with no productivity (we just give each other massages). It’s money that we spend on ourselves to please ourselves and keep the system running. Health care, retail, lawyers, advertising, entertainment. Useless. They pull practically no money in from the outside world, which we need in order to pay the outside world for raw materials, energy, and manufactured goods that we want from them.
The point is that Seattle is better positioned for world trade than most of the country, which is freeloading by comparison. Seattle is the biggest part of WA’s economy. And the farms are actually helping.
Pity Michigan, Nevada, and Florida. They produce nothing.
Scotsman » Aug 3, 2009 at 12:19 am
RE: Herman @ 33 –
Good points. And agreed, you haven’t seen “old money” until you’ve been back east, 7th and 8th generation with no idea of what real work is.
When the dollar tanks Seattle will continue to ship grain and other foods from the NW region, but there will be much less traffic coming back, and volume over all will likely be down. How much money does the actual shipping bring in? Not much, I’d wager. What money there is comes from the production, and that’s all to the east.
David Losh » Aug 3, 2009 at 7:25 am
RE: Herman @ 33 –
Put the pipe down and step away!
We’re the last frontier.
People invested here and made stakes in the region. People are still investing here. Weyerhauser owns land. All of the companies and University own land, lot’s of it. That’s wealth.
No one has to give you a job. No one has to show a profit. The people who have wealth don’t need a job. As a matter of fact the worse things are the more profit they make. You will work for less.
What this region has is opportunity. It’s very correct that on the East coast wealth is generational. Many of those investment dollars are here, along with all the money that has been made along the way.
Claiming that the oppoortunity isn’t here is ridiculous.
Kary L. Krismer » Aug 3, 2009 at 8:20 am
By Scotsman @ 31:
I’m not sure, but I don’t think they grow Fir trees in the SE.
mukoh » Aug 3, 2009 at 9:42 am
RE: Herman @ 33 – IMO you just haven’t been to a jewish wedding here. There is plenty of old money here, I am friends with one of them who used to be owner of aluminum plants.
However Losh thinks that old money drives economy, I think thats not correct.
Lilypad » Aug 3, 2009 at 10:02 am
RE: Herman @ 33 – “You don’t know old money until you’ve been to a Jewish wedding in the Hamptons.” Very offensive. And inaccurate—the old money that you are Scotsman are referring to (”And agreed, you haven’t seen “old money” until you’ve been back east, 7th and 8th generation with no idea of what real work is”) is old WASP money.
Ira Sacharoff » Aug 3, 2009 at 10:09 am
RE: Lilypad @ 38 –
Thank You Lilypad. Herman’s comment was indeed offensive, inaccurate, and racist.
A Jewish wedding in the Hamptons might be a garish display of wealth, but it is NOT old money.
Old money is much more understated, and much more insidious.
Ira Sacharoff » Aug 3, 2009 at 10:11 am
RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 36 –
No fir trees, but lots and lots of oak and Southern Pine.
Softwarengineer » Aug 3, 2009 at 10:28 am
RE: Richard @ 14 –
LOL RICHARD
Even the public school teachers that have a big enough household income put their kids in private schools, ask them. We can’t teach science and math in public schools anymore because too much money is paid on English lessons and not enough tax revenue is collected on the surge of growth of lower class incomes into the schools IMO. Hades, even study halls to help failing kids graduate have been largely eliminated, especially for the middle class paying most of the property taxes.
Ohhhh, they say the graduating rates are like 50%, remember that includes failing kids passing GEDs….Hades, in my time only derilicts had to resort to GEDs to graduate….now-a-days, its a public school graduating system? I asked a local high school, Phoenix Academy, why only about 20% graduated (about 30 out of 150 Seniors)…they just shrugged….
Kary L. Krismer » Aug 3, 2009 at 10:41 am
By Ira Sacharoff @ 40:
I tried to find what kind of wood they build with down there. I’ve heard somewhere that it’s not fir, but the Home Depot site doesn’t mention the type of wood. They have a lot more pressure treated stuff on their site down there (I used an Atlanta zip code). They must have more pests.
deejayoh » Aug 3, 2009 at 11:09 am
By Kary L. Krismer @ 42:
Southern Yellow Pine. grows like a weed. used to be a big business making plywood + framing materials. Not sure what has happened as OSB has taken share.
I used to do consulting work for one of the biggest lumber companies in the country – I know more than I care to about that business!
explorer » Aug 3, 2009 at 12:13 pm
Boeing and Microsoft did not save us in the dot com bubble burst. Seattle has historically seriously lagged both the boom and bust cycles the country as gone through. It does not mean both don’t eventually catch up to it. And it has started to catch up.
In fact PACCAR is doing very well, last I checked. International market, and a manufacturer. Seattle has lost much of the manufacturing capacity it used to have ( as has the rest of the country), and that is where your most stable economies have historically been focused.
Software only gets you so far. You have to have something to apply it to. Biotech takes ten to fifteen years to produce something tangible, in those cases that it actually gets that far.
Seattle has alot more of it’s fortunes dependant upon global import/exprt trade and it’s port. It’s historically been a waystation both ways, and that has not changed.
vermillionsky » Aug 3, 2009 at 1:41 pm
RE: Softwarengineer @ 41 –
The quality of the public schools depend on where you live. I’ve heard in NYC there are public schools that are harder to get into than the private schools, with very high graduation and college attendance rates. I grew up in suburban Cleveland, and my dad commuted over an hour each way downtown so we could attend school in a good school district. I have family members who teach in the Seattle area (one of them teaches high school math, and I can assure you she is very good). According to them, there are some very good public school districts in the greater seattle area.. it just depends on where you live.
Oh, and I wanted to add that my mother-in-law is a retired public school teacher who could have afforded private schools, and her children attended public schools.
biliruben » Aug 3, 2009 at 3:28 pm
“I asked a local high school, Phoenix Academy, why only about 20% graduated (about 30 out of 150 Seniors)…they just shrugged…. ”
Private schools are where you are taught to detect when a high school shrugs, I suppose.
Seriously, there is a lot that goes into determining whether a school educates kids well, and whether it is public or private is largely secondary.
I’d be more interested in lean administration, strong parent involvement in both the school and the kids and good funding to attract and retain quality, experienced teachers and keep class sizes small.
I have attended both public and private schools, and got a far better education from public schools. Private schools were where you went when you were kicked out of public school, where I grew up.
I would pit Stuyvesant and Bronx Science kids against any private school in the country. Even ones that are 50K a year and 1/1 ratios.
Scotsman » Aug 3, 2009 at 5:18 pm
RE: deejayoh @ 43 –
SYP, not as good as Longleaf Pine, but decent wood. These days I don’t think it matters much- fir, pine, hemlock, syp, larch, it’s all referred to as “white wood” and considered interchangeable for framing. etc. And with osb and all the other engineered products being designated as a-ok, the only thing that really matters is price.
Mark » Aug 3, 2009 at 6:15 pm
RE: Scotsman @ 34 –
Not trying to be difficult, but 7 to 8 generations is a long way back, and I was wondering how all of that old money gets passed along to so many decendants?
We all have:
2 parents
4 grandparents
8 great grandparents
16 great great grandparents
32 great great great grandparents
64 great great great great grandparents
128 great great great great great grandparents
256 great great great great great great grandparents
One can only imagine how many offspring would have been produced by all of these people. The logistics of securing a fortune that would last the generations is mind boggling.
Mikal » Aug 3, 2009 at 8:03 pm
RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 36 – It is pine. And it is great for pallets and framing two by fours and that is about it.
David Losh » Aug 3, 2009 at 8:35 pm
RE: Mark @ 48 –
Let’s not confuse the issue. We are talking about trees here.