Staying hungry pushes you to do more, in my opinion to take more chances. When you have nothing you have nothing to lose.

Music, more than art, is a very selective field for what is popular, or profitable. Art can reach a small segment of the population much easier than music.

There are many people who play music, compose, and collaborate that never make it out of a basement or garage. One of the things about Seattle is that it had a lively set of music venues.

I’m thinking that one of the things that Seattle has lost is it’s ability to have diverse clubs, bars, and cocktail lounges. The other thing is the amount of basement sound studios that I see. It seems to me we have also lost the professional recording ability that we once enjoyed here.

I too am a slightly-working-musician , Ive had to make the bulk of my money in other more mundane ways like running a business, but your post hit home with me ie: remaining hungry! Nothing fulfills me like writing music that I like ( avante-garde and virtually un-marketable), and never mind the bollocks.

anyway cheers

Excellent!

Best wishes :)

anyway cheers

It seems that you have to be the best of the best to make a decent living in that world.

It can be worse than that, because there is an element of selling out that can happen when you make it. Have you ever listened to a record and at first not liked it, but after several listens became hooked on it? That happens because your brain has to form new neural connections to be able to hear the music in the way it was intended. Another example would be parents who hate the music their kids listen to because of a generational difference in the way their brains wired to hear music.

Now imagine studying music for many thousands of hours in order to wire your brain up to hear music in a way that the mainstream population hasn’t been wired to be able to hear. At that point you have a choice between continuing to invent the music you love or backtracking in order to feed and clothe yourself. The purist among us will choose to stay hungry and remain unknown.

Society needs it’s aritists. Life without art would be unbearably dull. I am truly envious of those that have the courage to follow their passion in the pursuit of perfecting their art. It seems that you have to be the best of the best to make a decent living in that world.

RE: Jonness @ 148 –

Interesting list, mostly artsy / entertainer / rebel right brain hemisphere dominant types. Great subject for a sociology major to investigate —— “What is the correlation between right brain dominance and homelessness” :-).

Apparently, I used to create and invent music at a high level. In those days, pretty much everything paled in comparison to the euphoria I felt when I discovered even a tiny new piece of the puzzle I was attempting to construct. Money cannot replace that feeling, so it was way down on my list of priorities. Also, every other field of endeavor I considered seemed as though it restricted my thoughts to only a small portion of my mind. Music was the only thing that allowed me to use my complete brain, and that was very freeing to me.

I suspect a lot of artists are homeless because they believe art is the highest form of revelation. I know the passion for living I felt while exploring, creating, and inventing the future was beyond any other experience I ever had. Yes, many people believed I was the dreg of society, but that meant very little in the grand scope of things. For the most part, all I cared about was breaking new ground, and I went to great lengths in my attempts to do so.

These days, I’m a mindless robot who solves logic problems and follows orders. It’s not very fulfilling, but the pay is OK. I like to think of it as having a day job. However, the nights seem awfully short, so I can’t guarantee you won’t see me out on the street again.

Hey, I feel your pain. I’m slightly older than you and I’ve experienced the same obstacles in my quest for decent living. After over 30 years of renting (parents never owned a home) I broke down and decided that I had to get a house to fit the wife and two kids.

Having never lived in a house before, I’d say it’s pretty nice. The lure to buy a home is so seductive.

I hope things improve for all of us in the future.

You see kid, you don’t get it about how easy this is because you’re all caught up in the game.

I know you all want to do the right thing. You want things to be better and maybe the easy way is harder than you think. You keep your head down, go to school, get a job, or career, save your money, buy a house, maybe get married, have kids, and start the cycle again. You go to the bank with your money, invest well, buy well, and some day you may be able to retire.

Is that it? Maybe if you are really good, and special, you can go to your class reunion and be in the top 10%, because that’s what it’s all about.

We fought. This is war. You are either with us or you are the enemy. There are millions, if not billions, of people in the world who are in the same war against oppression.

There are no rules in war. There is win and lose, fight or die.

You’re right it was easier to be on the winning side in the last generation. Everything was free after World War II. Jobs, houses, and education were in such huge supply any one could have anything. Now you have to take from some one else to have yours.

The question is: is it right? That depends on you and your moral compass. Is it right to take from a thief if it benefits others? Is it right to get the best of some low life, like your land lord, or a bank? That depends on you and your moral compass.

Thanks again Kid.

This is the last post I will be making on this subject, I’ve said my piece, but I want to leave with this one last statement.

To all those out there of my parents generation. I have met many of you who understand the situation that I, and many like me are in. I know you worked hard for the things that you have, and I know you have accomplished a great deal in your lives. You raised us and fed us and took us to school, and I thank you for that. You fought through racism, sexism, and one of the most terrible “police actions” this country has ever participated in. You lived daily with the looming threat of nuclear war. I am not, and will never say that your contributions to this nation were not valuable. Those were your fights, and you came through them standing tall. You fought your fights, and you have your own problems now. I understand that.
Now we have our own fights. We face a crumbling infrastructure, a monumental national debt and matching tax burden, a social security system that has dried up, and wages that have not even come close to pacing inflation. Our housing is priced beyond anything any reasonable person could be expected to afford, the health care sytem bankrupts as many people as it treats, fuel costs have risen to levels never before seen, fallen, and then have resumed their climb. An education is so expensive that most people end up spending a lifetime trying to pay it back. Our environment is badly damaged,and our fuel supplies are runing low. We have blood in our shoes and blisters on our hands. We are out there, every day, busting our asses just to get by. We are exausted, frustrated, and angry. These are real problems we face and I have no idea how we’re going to fix them. Please don’t forget us, and please don’t dismiss us, and if you can find it in your hearts, please have a little sympathy, I don’t think that’s too much to ask. Good luck everybody, we’re all in this together.

“And as far as your French revolution BS is concerned, have you been there lately? With the exception of a better healthcare system, they live about the same way we do. So their revolution got them absolutely nothing in the long run. The current generation of French have no more stamina, no more experience, and no more stomach for a revolution than Americans do — because like us, they are preoccupied sending text messages and buying flat screen TVs while their deficit grows.”

Once again, you’ve missed the point. You seem to think I’m saying that there will be some glorious revolution and everything will become hunky-dory. I’m not. I’m saying that the environment that produced a popular revolt against an overprivileged class occured in an environement very similar to the one we are in right now. This resulted in alot of people dying, both those that deserved it and those who didn’t. Dismissing the entirety or even the majority of current society as hopelessly consumer driven and brain dead is short sighted and narrow minded.
If you have been reading this thread carefully you will note that there has been a great deal of support for, and agreement with what I have said. This would indicate that I am not alone. People are angry and frustrated out there, and getting angrier by the day. No amount of dismissal, ignorance or excuses that you make will change that fact. Something has to give, and it will. I hope it happens peacefully and within the rules of our system of government, but it may happen violently. If it does happen violently, then god help us all.
No, my experience is not representative of the entirety my generation, but it does seem to be an awfully large percentage of us. Yes, many people from your generation worked very hard to get what they have, I’m not saying they didn’t. But as a whole, you did have it whole lot easier. As a whole, we do have it a whole lot harder. However, if you admit this, you would be admitting that maybe, just maybe luck and privilege had as much to do with your success as hard work and perserverance. I don’t think you could emotionally handle that.

We agree on one thing, the price of housing (not houses, housing, rent it outrageous too) is out of control, driven by a frenzy of easy money lending. Where we disagree is apparently you don’t think this is significant to people not looking for an investment, or a life of luxury, but just looking for a home, to sleep in, to keep their stuff in, and to raise a family in.

“I’m not being sarcastic. I just want to know. If it is so difficult to make ends meet in the Seattle area, why do you stay there?
Last I checked, median home prices are around 35% less in Pierce and Kitsap than what is currently occurring in King and I’m sure rent differences are comparable. Is living in King that much more special?”

to answer your question
I am an artist directly in seattle… I have two good paying jobs. I can walk or bike to work! I love seattle. It’s where my friends, family, jobs, and artistic life, and social life is centered! I would rather be close to my jobs than buy a car and commute an hour or more a day in order to buy some cheap home in tacoma!

The point is that houses in seattle are still OVERPRICED! Meaning people are asking TOO MUCH for their homes still! I make make more than my peers and put my leftover cash into my 401k and into a retirement fund! But i do not make a 6 figure salary… I don’t know anyone my age who does!!

I personally do not blame any generation for anything. The point is that the flock of house flippers, a greedy market, fat cat bank CEO”S, and wall street have made housing prices unreachable for the average hardworking young american trying to build a life. Maybe prices are dropping in the other counties, but I’m not seeing in in seattle. Some houses on the market have the same asking price it did a year ago…

And the frusterating thing is that I keep hearing from real estate agents and the market that “NOW IS THE TIME TO BUY” Just because those who make $$ off a bad sale say so… doesn’t make it so.

I’m doing my research for my area… My conclusion… In Seattle it is still not the right time to buy!

Many Boomers are actually WORSE off now than the younger generations, and they don’t have the time to make it back up. Yes, Ira’s comment on gleeful misdirection is on the mark.

Trouble is, you can’t really count them “in” for the long haul either. As is proved with Health Care in particualr. With attention spans of gnats, they can be as weak minded as anyone else. Some of that is lack of expereince and wisdom, but some is also from a dumbed down educational system. That’s why there can still be support for old failed polices with new names and new targets.

Everyone from every generation has a share of the “blame” for the malase.

It’s the “Amercian Dream” emotion saying to them: “I know it looks bad, but it will work out…” Famous last words. I still overhear people occassionally angsting over their upcoming purchases. They know they should not, but “it will work out somehow.” It’s pure wishful thinking. It’s also weak minded and improperly researched decision making based upon misplaced trust and marketing. Makes one wonder what they do to earn those 6 figures (those that do), and how they keep their jobs

What sucks is that those who are more clear headed are taking it in the shorts too. I’m not about to toss in the towel of fiscal sanity, but I think the resentment is well earned. We have been well trained to live beyond our means as a society. Nothing short of disaster is going to reset that mindset.

Have you been there lately?

Why yes I have, to visit family. And as some of you may know native French is spoken in my household. I have a pretty clear idea of what contemporary French society is like.

RE: Lake Hills Renter @ 173

I have no issue with The Kid’s individual story. I do take issue with trying to pass off that experience as the experience of a generation, and implying that the boomers were somehow consiring against them.

Grumpy? You bet. “Stay out of those rose bushes! You won’t be laughing when I let this dog off this chain!”

I guess I was asking more for where and why society put appreciation on houses as they are a structure or entity with a lifespan, allbeit longer than a car, but still a product for consumers that will decay with out work and repairs at a cost.

What would be the average term of ownership vs cost for a car compared to a house? Is it similar?

Oh and I respect both Ford and Chevy in terms of historic automobiles. I just wouldn’t buy anything from them today. ;-)

Peckhammer — I love ya, but you’re sounding like a grumpy old man. I’m expecting you tell The Kid to get off your lawn next. =P

Disclaimer: I’m 38 and have a good job with a good salary — I’ve been very lucky in my life this far. But because I’m on a single income, I haven’t been able to find a house I’m willing to pay for in the 3+ years I’ve been watching the market. So I rent, save, and fund my retirement.

And as far as your French revolution BS is concerned, have you been there lately? With the exception of a better healthcare system, they live about the same way we do. So their revolution got them absolutely nothing in the long run.

Have you been there lately? Can I drop some coins into a vending machine to get to Portland in an hour, with lots of leg room? And healthcare is huge; it can easily mean the difference between living in poverty or living middle class. Even house calls are free there. Most Americans have a significantly lower standard of living than most of the French do.

Seriously, I’d put your pickup truck in a different category than a car in the way we’ve been discussing it, because it doesn’t sound like something you’d buy for a daily driver. Although I actually do know someone who bought an old classic pickup and did just that with it. I thought that was nuts, and I suspect whoever sold it to them would have said no if they’d known.

But the other major difference is cars depreciate much faster, both in real and nominal terms. There was a time when German cars actually appreciated due to exchange rates, but other than that or the collector car, they will go down in value.

I’ve said this before, but this is just a case of some of you not valuing houses as highly as others.

Me I don’t value $40,000+ cars as highly as others, so I drive a 20 year old pickup truck, and when we do shop for new vehicles the price limit is around $20,000 (our other car is a 2005 Rav4 bought new). But do you see me going around the web complaining that the prices of cars are too high because I don’t value them as much as others? No. I accept that the market is what is is, and other people are what they are.

And I’d add that historically car purchases have probably put far more people into bankruptcy than house purchases. Years ago one trustee I know mentioned that the average debtor has a car (or cars) that are less than two years old. After hearing him say that, I started noticing, and it was amazingly true. And also, for the most part, cars only depreciate.

This got me thinking… What exactly is different about a house as compared to a car?

Similarities
- Regular maintenance
- Options to modify or improve performance, comfort, luxury.
- Both need repairs during their lifespan.
- Both are used as a status symbol by society.
- In high school you are a “loser” if you don’t have a car, in middle age you are a “loser” if you don’t own a home.
- Both serve a purpose to the owner transport, shelter.
- Both are ever changing with social wants/needs.
- Both are items that society looks at as acceptable to be in debt to own one.
- Both are susceptible to fads/fashion.

I bought a 1960 Chevy pickup when I was 16 for $500. My dad and I have been working on restoring it since. It is worth a lot more than what I paid for and put into it. Kary would not be interested in it because it is above his interest level for market value. But I see it the same as houses I see extra value in a house that is historically significant to the area. But I see no value in a 1980’s rambler for 400k because a bunch of “sheeple” got in line because everyone was doing it and it turned out it was a line for the chopping block.

So how does a car differ from a house in terms of value?

“Third, most places in the US are just as overpriced. Sure, if I moved out to, say, Yelm, or Prosser I could get a house, a big nice house on acreage for say, 200k. That still means that I find a job that makes me 50k a year to afford it, and that’s not going to happen out there. “

Try Denver. Nice place, and it’s affordable. I am certain that there are $50K/year jobs there too.

You’ve come into this discussion speaking on behalf of your generation, but really it’s all about you, your personal situation, and a dozen people you know who’ve crawled back to the dusty corners of their genesis.

I happen to work around thousands of people that are thirty and younger, who seem to be making a decent living. Some of them have even purchased homes — achieving the impossible, apparently. So, I’d suggest broadening the scope of your sampling before thinking that your personal experience is the experience of everyone in their 30s — or that it differs from many peoples’ experiences in my generation.

And as far as your French revolution BS is concerned, have you been there lately? With the exception of a better healthcare system, they live about the same way we do. So their revolution got them absolutely nothing in the long run. The current generation of French have no more stamina, no more experience, and no more stomach for a revolution than Americans do — because like us, they are preoccupied sending text messages and buying flat screen TVs while their deficit grows.

Second, regardless of the cost of living, this is where the jobs are. With the cost of transportation, commuting from, say, south Tacoma every day, or paying higher prices here is a null sum financial equation increase in tansportation expenditures cancels out any savings in cost of housing, combined with a tremendous waste of time in commute. You could ask yourself the same question about Manhttan. Why does ANYONE live there if it’s so expensive?

Many of the people I know have packed up and moved back to where they came from, Oklahoma, Texas, Kansas, Nebraska. Now they’re living with their parents in some tiny town out in the middle of nowhere. Sure, the living is cheap, but only one of the four people I know who moved back out to the sticks has managed to find a job of any kind, and that one is working as a clerk at a convinience store part time. That’s why they left and came out here in the first place.

Third, most places in the US are just as overpriced. Sure, if I moved out to, say, Yelm, or Prosser I could get a house, a big nice house on acreage for say, 200k. That still means that I find a job that makes me 50k a year to afford it, and that’s not going to happen out there.

Serious question to cherilyn, Dave O, Markor, The Kid, Jonness, etc.
.
I’m not being sarcastic. I just want to know. If it is so difficult to make ends meet in the Seattle area, why do you stay there?

Have I given the impression that I’m struggling? I’m not. As a liberal I support fairness (including to future generations) and sustainability. I do think King County is superior to surrounding counties.

“All of the building codes around here require buildings to be built to withstand one of those “once every 300 years” earthquakes.”

Which have never been tested by an actual magnitude 9, 3+ minute duration.

The fequency of magnitude 9 earthquakes is about every 20 years in the world. The earthquake here in 2001 was like a kiddy ride compared to the Cascadia Subduction zone quakes that occur, on average, every 300 years. I doubt there would be anything left standing here in Seattle, since these quakes have a typical duration of 3 minutes or more.

RE: Dave0 @ 160 –

“I also would like to avoid any place with hurricanes, tornadoes, extreme cold with ice and snow for months, or extreme heat during the summer, which pretty much only leaves the northwest.”

The Northwest, which is known for the largest earthquakes in the contiguous United States. Yeah, that risk assessment makes sense to me… ;)

I’m fully aware of the earthquake threat in the northwest. In the 26 years that I’ve grown up here there was 1 earthquake that I felt (in 2001). The things I listed out occur usually on an annual basis. Significant earthquakes happen maybe once a decade, I can live with that threat. All of the building codes around here require buildings to be built to withstand one of those “once every 300 years” earthquakes. As long as your not on hwy 520 or the viaduct when it happens, you will probably survive.

Regarding tsunamis, I don’t think they are much of a threat to Seattle considering 1) We are not on the open ocean, but instead the Puget Sound so large tsunamis are less likely to occur and 2) Seattle is hilly, if a tsunami is coming, it won’t be too hard to get to a high enough elevation to avoid it.

“how often have earthquakes done damage like Katrina did? “

Every 300 years?

Facts:

Cascadia Subduction Zone, The Cascadia Subduction zone, which does not encompass the entire west coast.
1700 01 26
Magnitude ~9

This earthquake, the largest known to have occurred in the “lower 48″ United States, rocked Cascadia, a region 600 miles long that includes northern California, Oregon, Washington, and southern British Columbia. The earthquake set off a tsunami that not only struck Cascadia’s Pacific coast, but also crossed the Pacific Ocean to Japan, where it damaged coastal villages.

RE: Dave0 @ 160 –

The Northwest, which is known for the largest earthquakes in the contiguous United States. Yeah, that risk assessment makes sense to me… ;)

That would be the entire west coast, but how often have earthquakes done damage like Katrina did?

“I also would like to avoid any place with hurricanes, tornadoes, extreme cold with ice and snow for months, or extreme heat during the summer, which pretty much only leaves the northwest.”

The Northwest, which is known for the largest earthquakes in the contiguous United States. Yeah, that risk assessment makes sense to me… ;)

.
Serious question to cherilyn, Dave O, Markor, The Kid, Jonness, etc.
.
I’m not being sarcastic. I just want to know. If it is so difficult to make ends meet in the Seattle area, why do you stay there?
.
Last I checked, median home prices are around 35% less in Pierce and Kitsap than what is currently occurring in King and I’m sure rent differences are comparable. Is living in King that much more special?
.

All of my family is in Seattle, so staying in the Seattle area means saving money on flight tickets. I also would like to avoid any place with hurricanes, tornadoes, extreme cold with ice and snow for months, or extreme heat during the summer, which pretty much only leaves the northwest.

I live in Seattle because of my current comfortable desk job in Bellevue. If that jobs ends for whatever reason, I’d consider moving outside of King County, but I’d probably stay in Western Washington or the Portland area.

You hit the nail on the head!!

Interesting list, mostly artsy / entertainer / rebel right brain hemisphere dominant types. Great subject for a sociology major to investigate —— “What is the correlation between right brain dominance and homelessness” :-).

I have also been comparing asking home prices to the king county assessor property report regarding what individual houses have been assessed at. I find it interesting that sellers are still asking for twice as much as the house is assessed at!!
It seems sellers are still thinking that a 2 bedroom house with one bathroom on capitol hill is worth $800,000!

Ridiculous!!

It wasn’t intentional, it was more related to using up all of the earth’s resources for short-term pleasure, namely oil, but that’s a whole other topic…

It was intentional. How many of that generation had lots of kids so they’d have lots of people to take care of them in their old age? Much of the excess is still happening today– e.g. see the natural gas fires used for decoration in restaurants.

The problem is that while it may be obvious to you and I without a graph, every day real people somehow manage to convince themselves of that tired nonsense cliché that buying a home is “a forced savings plan.”

Buying a home might be a forced savings account if people forced themselves to pay extra every month on their mortgage. But I don’t know that they’re any more likely to do that than to put money in the stock market like in your hypothetical in the graph. If people need a forced savings account, what’s wrong with just having a savings account?

The problem is when people get an extra $100 a month of income, many tend to spend an extra $75-150 a month. And the ratio is probably the same for many people who save $1,000 a month by renting rather than buying.

“The only real thing I have to add to this discussion is actually an exerpt from the wikipedia entry on the causes of the French Revolution.

The “me” generation doesn’t have the organizational skills, or the attention span that a revolution requires. And they’re too busy poking friends in Facebook.

>–
Peckhammer

That “me” generation was able to elect Barak Obama, who without facebook would have never been able to connect with all of them. I wouldn’t count them out.

RE: Dave0 @ 141 –

Then stay out of the market. First off, your retirement fund should be your priority, IMO, not owning a home.

This whole pitiful “I am young, your generation screwed me” nonsense is tiring. If you’ve got a problem with prices in the consumer or real estate market, stay out of it. Houses aren’t oxygen; you don’t have to buy one.

BTW, funding my retirement was the first thing I did. My 401(k), pension and Roth IRA are to the point that I can pretty much let them grow for the next 34 years when I’m 60 and I’ll have enough without any more contributions. The only part of my retirement fund that I’m including as a possible down payment is my Roth IRA since I can take that out to buy my first house without any penalties.

Also, yes there is a reason I haven’t bought a house yet, because after doing the math, I can get a nicer place by renting for the same price. When that changes, then I’ll buy.

Finally, I wasn’t saying your generation screwed me, I was just agreeing that times are harder than they were in my parent’s generation. But, I do agree with all of the comments of those who have blamed the previous generations. That generation did screw us over, even if they did unknowingly. It wasn’t intentional, it was more related to using up all of the earth’s resources for short-term pleasure, namely oil, but that’s a whole other topic…

Peckhammer, you DO realize that you’re a walking stereotype now, right?
Out of touch, arrogant, dismissive, and clueless.
That’s right, you have nothing to fear from a bunch of filthy peasants.
Peckhammer failed to learn his history.

Or maybe you’re just a troll. Please tell me you’re just a troll. Because if you’re not, I think “peckhammer” just became the boomer version of a golliwog. Votes?

You tell ‘em. Let them eat cake!