Time for our detailed look at foreclosure activity for November in King, Snohomish, and Pierce counties. First up, the Notice of Trustee Sale summary:
November 2009
King: 783 NTS, up 45% YOY
Snohomish: 387 NTS, up 76% YOY
Pierce: 455 NTS, down 2% YOY
Foreclosure notices bumped back up again in all three counties last month. As we pointed out last month, the foreclosure rate is a rather noisy measure, alternating up and down month-to-month nearly every month. Last month was down, this month is back up again. Also, keep in mind that the effects of SB 5810 (more on that here), are still working their way through the system.
Here’s a simple look at how November’s foreclosures compare to the same month last year in each of the three counties:
Next let’s look at the percentage of households that received a Notice of Trustee Sale (based on household data for each county from the American Community Survey, assuming linear household growth between surveys):
King County came in at 1 NTS per 1,009 households, Snohomish County had 1 NTS per 682 households, and Pierce had 1 NTS for every 656 households (higher is better).
According to foreclosure tracking company RealtyTrac, Washington’s statewide foreclosure rate of one foreclosure for every 835 households was 28th worst among the 50 states and the District of Columbia (up from from 29th last month). Note that RealtyTrac’s definition of “in foreclosure” is much broader than what we are using, and includes Notice of Default, Lis Pendens, Notice of Trustee Sale, and Real Estate Owned.
Following are the usual charts of King, Pierce, and Snohomish County foreclosures from January 2000 through November 2009. Click below to continue…
Back into territory that is higher than any reading before this year.
Same story in Snohomish, with November’s 387 coming in higher than any of the elevated months in 2008.
Pierce County is still floating slightly below where it was late last year, but moved above the levels set in early 2008.
Here’s one more view of Notices of Trustee Sale in the three counties that makes the year-over-year comparison a little easier to visualize:
Note: The graphs above are derived from monthly Notice of Trustee Sale counts gathered at King, Snohomish, and Pierce County records. For a longer-term picture of King County foreclosures back to 1979, refer to the final chart in this post. For the full legal definition of what a Notice of Trustee Sale is and how it fits into the foreclosure process, check out RCW 61.24.040. The short version is that it is the notice sent to delinquent borrowers that their home will be repossessed in 90 days.
I think we’re getting close to the point where the change in the law isn’t having much effect on the monthly numbers, but it will affect the YOY comparisons coming up next summer.
What is “Monthly XXXX County Notices of Trustee’s Sale by Year?” The average number per month for that year?
As it is, the title reminds me of a friend who had a “Temporary Lifetime Pass” to get into the National Parks.
RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 1 – Each point on the lines represent a month. Each year is its own line. I’m plotting the total number of notices of trustee sale in each month, with each year laid on top of each other on a shared x-axis.
RE: The Tim @ 2 – Sorry, I had a brain fart on that. I was looking at the years above and assuming that was an axis for some reason. I was going to ask why 2004 was so bad! ;-)
I Heard on WARM 106.9 News Today
That foreclosures were down 8%, since the month before; and the month to month decline is following a several month in a row trend.
That was our local media’s Pollyanna Pink Pony take; now, let’s go to Fortune Magazine, Dec 21, 2009, edition, Investor’s Guide 2010, states in part:
“…The default rate of single-family mortgages is at a historic high already. And looming delinquencies point to even more foreclosures in the future…Negative Equity 23% Portion of U.S. Home Loans That Now Exceed the Market Value of the Borrower’s House…”
So whose news take is the real truth? LOL
RE: softwarengineer @ 4 –
In my opinion……. mine is………….
They are all coming back! Not a question of if….just when….People will not continue to pay on their Mtg’s when they are uside down greater then 20%+ the cost to sell.
However, there are 2 wild cards.
a) Year after year of Fed bonus bucks to stimulate. Never bet against the FED.
So many did in January and they got their head handed to them with this rally.
b) Mortgage Cramdown
People don’t walk when there is equity in their asset.
Good morning Tim,
Once again, thank you SO MUCH for posting these stats. I’m currently at the Sea King Co Assoc of Realtors in Bellevue teaching a class to a group of Realtors and one student asked for local foreclosure stats. I referred everyone here, to seattlebubble for the local foreclosure stats they won’t be able to get anywhere else.
::still waiting for Kary’s brain fart to clear thread::
Lots of questions as to why there was a spike up in the spring of 09 and then a dramatic drop. Had to explain about the change in the WA State foreclosure laws that went into effect this June.
We should see these number track back up soon as unemployment continues to climb. It’s interesting to note the BLS has already admitted that the November 10.0% number for U-3 was off- they missed about 400K in their count. How amazingly convenient. At any rate they are busy revising the number which will come out with the December stats first week in January. Expect November to be revised upward in excess of 10.2%. It truly is like living in the world of “1984.”
I am renting a 1,2million house in Juanita till March and owner is telling if he cannot sell it to us, he is going to give the house back to bank… what does that mean? Does it mean foreclosure? He is the builder/owner and says he got builder rates from bank.
I also checked some houses around, similar year/sqft houses are selling for 900k..
RE: Chris @ 10 –
It sounds like he’s literally going to give it back to the bank, via a deed in lieu of foreclosure. He will convey his full interest in the real property to the bank, and in exchange the bank will release him from any loan on the property.
How is it a $1.2M house if comparable houses are selling for $900k?
RE: Chris @ 10 –
Like Fran Tarkenton said, it sounds like deed in lieu of foreclosure, where your landlord gives back the property prior to the foreclosure process being completed.
Why can’t he sell it to you? Probably because he owes more on it than it is worth, and doesn’t want to go through the short sale process.
RE: Chris @ 10 –
Sounds like you may get free rent for awhile if he forecloses. Hes most likely keeping your rent checks. TEST him and stop making rent payments. What do you have to lose ?……..your gonna have to move anyway.
Educate yourself on this:
http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/article-30064.html
By Ray Pepper @ 13:
Ray, you really shouldn’t be giving legal advice. There’s no justification to stop making the payments simply because the landlord is keeping the rent. Absent the bank having some type of “choate” right to the rent, the tenant probably has no reason not to pay the rent to the landlord. What the landlord does with the money is probably not the tenant’s concern (although there may be concern about deposits and partial month rent during the month of foreclosure) As to what the tenant has to lose–the possible right to stay in the house for free that you mention! Also, if an eviction proceeding is started, finding a new place may be difficult. Thus, before stopping paying rent, and attorney should be consulted.
Both the state and the feds have new rules on tenant possession after foreclosure. One of them (I don’t recall which) doesn’t require that the tenant pay rent, but the interaction of the two laws is far from certain and I’ve seen different interpretations of how the laws interact. Assuming the rental value of the house is significant, it would probably be prudent for the tenant in this situation to see an attorney who can advise them how to proceed in their specific situation.
RE: Ray Pepper @ 13 – Ray, they are still liable for rent under their lease, whether he is paying it to the bank or not. Might want to not give legal advice unless you are an attorney.
By mukoh @ 15:
Or even if you are! My advice to Chris is to see an attorney.
no I guess I will keep paying the rent and see how it goes. He didnt officially told us this yet, it was just a conversation.
He is saying house worths 1,2 million but just in next block similar sqf and same year 07 is selling for $940. I checked the house and it is as good as our rental.
Anyways, thanks for the answers. next time, I will add some legal verbiage into my lease papers to protect myself..
What happened to all the folks complaining about the politics? I would expect them to come here today and comment on Real Estate issues like this??? I wonder if you posted pro-Obama stuff if the reaction would have been different. I do think everyone needs to give him some time; I think he will suceed in the end.
If I don’t like a thread here (for whatever reason) I just go read some other site and come back the next day.
Here is what would be interesting is how many foreclosures (in the future) are ones where the buyers got the $8k tax break. But I would be happy if there were no more foreclosures because I just don’t like folks having that happen to them. I know some bit off more than they can chew, but still I don’t like it.
RE: muck @ 15 –
OK kid, what’s the recourse on the lease, who’s damaged, who initiates the eviction, and is there a legal right to evict?
How about if Chris puts his rent money in a separate account, continues to make the payments into the account, and waits to see who will be demanding the release of funds.
You’re an amateur.
RE: Scotsman @ 9 –
Scotsman, do you remember where you heard that BLS has admitted a 400K error in their Nov count? I did a quick search but didn’t see anything in the news or on the BLS site. Are you sure BLS actually acknowledge the error, or is it possible the error was some commentators explanation for the difference between BLS’s estimate and TrimTabs much higher number? I don’t trust Trim Tabs any more than BLS. There were times last year when the BLS job loss number was significantly higher than TrimTabs.
RE: Chris @ 17 – It’s always good to spend a few hundred on an attorney who can give you options and at least understand your recourse, or what can be taken as action against you. Taking advice on forum from people is not the best way.
By David Losh @ 19:
Really? Based only on an off handed comment by the landlord he should stop paying the lease? If you’re not joking that’s pretty stupid advice.
RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 16 –
Oh give me a break. I give my advice to anyone that wants to hear it. Its up to the person wondering if they follow it or not. Its advice. Call it legal. I call it commonsense.
If I know my landlord is not making payments and the home is going into foreclosure I will immediately stop with my rental payments. I’m getting the boot anyway. Let the homeowner take me to Court and have me evicted per the Lease. Do you think he will? The home is going away anyway? Who cares if he does. Do you think it will ruin my credit? Do you think he reports to the credit bureaus? HES LOSING HIS HOME TO FORECLOSURE!
Kary do you believe this will hurt my chances of renting another home. Please explain how? What can this foreclosing home owner LEGALLY do to me? “Also, if an eviction proceeding is started, finding a new place may be difficult. ” This statement makes no sense, Kary. Please elaborate how me being evicted from a foreclosed home will hurt me??
Don’t be brain dead guys. Go hire an Attorney and blow through 500.00-1000.00 to hear ” I think you should begin searching for another residence.”
although there may be concern about deposits and partial month rent during the month of foreclosure–YA
THINK???Kary
Great Advice!
“Ray, they are still liable for rent under their lease, whether he is paying it to the bank or not. Might want to not give legal advice unless you are an attorney. ”
Mukoh. I’m not an Attorney and I have not seen Chris’s Lease. But, I have enough commonsense to know that if my landlord is losing his home, and I have been told this, I will take immediate action.
“I will add some legal verbiage into my lease papers to protect myself.” Chris, commonsense goes along way. I would like to see this Lease you signed with no “legal verbiage”. I will analyze it for free and contact your Landlord direct.
Kary and Mukoh click on this and educate yourself. Its all I need to know . In addition I will search if a Trustee Sale is in the works.
http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/article-30064.html
Kary and Mukoh : EDUCATE YOURSELF AS TO WHAT IS GOING ON IN THIS COUNTRY:
Many tenants have no idea that their building has been taken at foreclosure. They continue to pay rent to the former owner, who often pockets the money but is hardly inclined to maintain the building it no longer owns. In the meantime, the new owners simply refuse to be landlords, never making repairs or even paying utility bills. Because the banks are stuck with increasing numbers of foreclosed properties that they can’t sell, they remain non-landlords for some time, making life impossible for their tenants until those tenants are evicted.
http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/article-30064.html
Be proactive Chris and call your landlord tomorrow. Set up a meeting. Know your rights.
Before you make your next payment do your due diligence.
You do NOT need an Attorney for this!
The Attorney needs you! ($$)
What Can a Foreclosed-Upon Tenant Do?
Thanks to the 2009 federal legislation, most tenants with leases will keep their leases, and month-to-month tenants will have at least 90 days to relocate. Tenants with leases have no legal recourse against their former landlords, because they are in the same position vis a vis the new owner as they were with the old: The lease survives and ends as it would had there been no foreclosure. Similarly, month-to-month tenants always know that they can be terminated with proper notice, and 90 days is longer than any state’s termination period.
However, a lease-holding tenant whose rental has been bought by a buyer who want to move in to the property ends up less fortunate than before the new law — he may lose his lease with 90 days’ notice, a result that probably would not have happened had the owner simply sold the property to a buyer who intended to occupy the property. (Normally, the new owner has to wait until the lease ends, absent a lease clause providing for termination upon sale, though such clauses may not be legal in all situations.)
Suing in Small Claims Court
A lease-holding tenant who has to move out so that new owners may move in might consider suing their former landlord in small claims court. Here’s how it works.
After signing a lease, the landlord is legally bound to deliver the rental for the entire lease term. In legalese, this duty is known as the “covenant of quiet enjoyment.” A landlord who defaults on a mortgage, which sets in motion the loss of the lease, violates this covenant, and the tenant can sue for the damages it causes.
Small claims court is a perfect place to bring such a lawsuit. The tenant can sue the original landlord for moving and apartment-searching costs, application fees, and the difference, if any, between the new rent for a comparable rental and the rent under the old lease. Though the former owner is probably not flush with money, the awards in these cases won’t be very much, and the court judgment and award will stay on the books for many years. A persistent tenant can probably collect what’s owed eventually.
For more information on suing a landlord in small claims court, see Everybody’s Guide to Small Claims Court or Everybody’s Guide to Small Claims Court in California, by Ralph Warner (Nolo).
RE: Ray Pepper @ 24 – If they are losing their house, they aren’t going to be able to pay. PERIOD. Where is Mathew with his glib comments? I miss him. Merry Christmas, I’m off to the Bahamas for a week.
RE: Chris @ 10 – Chris – can you tell us how much are you paying in rent for the 1.2 mill house? Is it at least 7K per month or less?
RE: DrShort @ 22 –
My comment goes to this:
“Ray, they are still liable for rent under their lease, whether he is paying it to the bank or not. Might want to not give legal advice unless you are an attorney.”
This guy is giving legal advice while advising some one not to give legal advice.
Believe it or not we have been in this situation before. Foreclosures have always been a part of the Real Estate business and the renter needs to look out for themselves. In this particular case we don’t know what to do any more than an attorney would.
Open dialog is the best action. The renter needs to talk with the land lord. If in fact the owner isn’t making payments to the bank the renter would be dollars ahead setting his payments aside. Ultimately the bank may be his land lord and appreciate the renter’s due diligence on thier behalf, there again they may not care.
Getting an attorney blah, blah, blah for a residential lease? Ray’s right educate yourself.
RE: Ray Pepper @ 24 –
I just paraphrased a bit, but good Lord!!!
RE: Ray Pepper @ 23 – Ray, one thing to strongly consider is there is a guy in LA who keeps all court records on people who have any eviction paper work filed. He was sued and he won. The main point he was sued on was that he keeps the info forever, not like credit reports which get reborn after seven years, his reports keeps the black marks for your whole life. I would never ever risk that. Being on that list can make it to where you will never rent again without somone else cosigning.
By Ray Pepper @ 23:
Most everyone else considers it nonsense. This was without a doubt one of your worst posts ever.
You don’t know how a landlord starting an eviction can affect a tenant? That’s public record. Landlords are more reluctant to rent to someone that the prior landlord is taking action to evict. Some may not want to even listen to an explanation. And that eviction will be public record forever.
As to giving legal advice, if you ever give this type of advice to an actual client, in addition to suing you for malpractice, they can sue you for violating the Consumer Protection Act. That will open the door to attorney fee claims, and limited treble damages (only $10,000 as opposed to the $100,000 that was in the original Distressed Property Law.)
RE: David Losh @ 27 –
David’s right on two counts:
1. We don’t know that Chris’s landlord is not paying his mortgage. All we know is that Chris’s landlord made some offhand remark about giving the house back to the bank. To decide to withhold rent simply based on that information is probably premature….
2. There’s legal advice and there’s practical advice, so absolutely Chris should get more information from his landlord and should investigate via county records whether foreclosure proceedings have begun. If they had, Chris would probably be aware of certified letters/legal notices posted on the property.
So my advice is not legal advice and should not be construed as such.Getting more information is probably the most useful thing that can be done right now. Simply withholding rent based on the landlord’s remarks at this point may be a bit premature. The landlord could have been high, drunk, confused, or lying.
RE: David Losh @ 27 – It’s amazing to me that both Ray and David would be taking this position. One of the duties of agents is to refer people to professionals when they don’t have the skill or ability to deal with the matter. This is one case where the agent should clearly be referring clients to an attorney, and it’s shocking that both Ray and David don’t know that.
RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 30 –
Kary, I have no legal agreement with Chris in/re to my analysis and opinion on this blog. I can give my advice to anyone here on this blog based on the information given.
Sure, he can sue me for my advice and he can sue you as well. Will he win. Absolutely not . Due diligence Kary. If people practiced it, there would be far less confusion in life.
Based on the information given. I would immediately TODAY contact the landlord. Analyze the situation and let me rephrase………………Quite possibly CEASE in making rental payments.
I WOULD NEVER contact an Attorney based on the information given.
RE: Ira sacharoff @ 31 – I would add to that the fact that while getting information from the landlord is not a bad idea, any information obtained from that source should be viewed skeptically.
I would also add that it may be premature to see an attorney prior to a notice of trustee’s sale actually being filed. The tenant should learn of that filing through the posting of the property, and a mailing, but if the tenant also checks the county records every two weeks they would get a minimum of 2.5 months notice of the foreclosure. That might be pushing it if the deposit is two months of rent, but that might be better than paying for an attorney when the foreclosure might end up being after the end of the term of the lease. Generally I’m against procrastinating, but this might be one time where it’s worth waiting. It might also depend on the personality of the tenant. If they want to know, then perhaps it’s worth it to get the opinion earlier rather than later.
RE: Ray Pepper @ 33 – If you want to risk being sued, that’s one thing. But giving bad advice is another. Your analysis of this situation is nothing short of horrible.
The one point I will concede is that it might be premature to see an attorney prior to the notice of trustee’s sale, as indicated in my prior post.
Kary said “Generally I’m against procrastinating”
I’m not sure whether I am or not. I’ll decide later.
Kary as an RN for 15 years we are professionally trained to tell EVERYONE to seek the advice of an MD. However as trained professionals we are sought after for guidance.
Telling everyone to seek an Attorney or seek an MD without first listening to professionals in the field and doing your own research makes you susceptible to an idiot Attorney or MD. I never tell anyone to seek an Attorney right off the top. There are so many more professional ways to handle issues (medical/real estate) that are far more cost effective and rely on COMMONSENSE.
This tenant needs to know his rights and he has been provided them here. I have managed 34 investment properties for the last 11 years in different states. We utilize EVICT A RAT for our “squatters” and as they adise me, on it seems a monthly basis now, attorneys are at the end of the line when it comes to dealing with rental issues.
Chris 1 last time…Know your rights and don’t let yourself be a bagholder. Let Kary and Mukoh hire an Attorney.
http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/article-30064.html
By Ray Pepper @ 37:
BS. Tell me how the interaction of the new state and federal laws on tenant rights in foreclosure has been addressed here!
Websites do not count for legal advice, especially websites that don’t address Washington state law.
By Ray Pepper @ 37:
That may be for RNs, but for agents the only legal representation you’re authorized to do is to fill out pre-printed forms prepared by a licensed attorney.
RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 38 –
Are you kidding Kary…
“meaning the tenant could stay at least until the end of the lease, and that month-to-month tenants would be entitled to 90 days’ notice before having to move out (this notice period is longer than any state’s non-foreclosure notice period, a real boon to tenants”
Chris may have alot coming towards him with Obama at his back signing this into LAW. Landlord forecloses, 90 days FREE RENT. Cash for keys. Have the former landlord extend his lease prior to foreclosure and let Chris make payments to the bank. It goes on and on.
Chris may even want to go the route of being a squatter. Professional squatters game the system for almost 6 months in Washington State.
Heck, Chris your sitting on a Gold Mine. Educate yourself and talk to your Landlord TODAY. IN PERSON.
RE: Ray Pepper @ 40 – Do you realize that your advice earlier to quit paying rent could mean that Chris might not be entitled to the “gold mine” that you’re referencing in this post?
There’s are reasons why real estate agents are not authorized to give legal advice, and you’re demonstrating one of them.
Kary, you ever listen to Handle on the Law with is “Marginal Legal Advice.”
You should!
I feel the same way. I like to point people in the right direction with COMMON SENSE because they seem to get themselves in predicaments.
Telling people to consult an Attorney is not advice. Everyone can hire an Attorney and they know it. They don’t have to be told. But, when you educate yourself first through DUE DILIGENCE you already did 90% of the work.
“On his Saturday show, Handel on the Law, he gives terse “marginal legal advice” designed to point callers in the right direction. He often makes fun of callers for getting themselves into their legal predicament, stating bluntly “you have absolutely no case.” Still, the show is informative in that it deals with many common legal problems such as landlord-tenant, child custody, and divorce in an easy-to-understand way.[8]“
RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 41 – Are you sure Kary? If the whole renting thing goes south he can sue Ray….. That might get Chris his $10K (or whatever you said he was entitled to) for his bad legal advice. Maybe 20K if he goes after David too…
RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 41 –
Kary, I will sum it up like this. After meeting with his Landlord TODAY. He should know where he stands. If payments are current and this was just an off-the-cuff remark , because he is buried upside down, then of course he pays rent.
If we are near a trustee sale then he knows my opinion and he has hopefully taken the time to read the link and understand why Tenants Across the Nation are dealing with this everyday. This is why Obama signed this into Law.
Assist in educating not lining the pockets of all these Attorney’s.
RE: Everett_Tom @ 43 –
He can get it from David.
David I will go to Court with you and we will have Tim provide this thread. I will sit back and laugh. Watching you up there is worth the price of admission.
RE: Ray Pepper @ 44 – Wow, bad advice and gullibility in the same post. Why should a tenant believe what their landlord says?
RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 41 – Oh come Kary. We have discussed how just about anything can be construed to be legal advice. I mean we are talking about attorneys here.
How much consideration was given?
That said, maybe ‘If I were in your situation I would,” was left off? (Maybe this is legal advice? lol You get what you pay for?)
As you are aware, I would never suggest anyone practice law without being properly licensed.
Without giving any advice to anyone for anything, let me say that I have not heard many problems when cash is kept in an escrow account when someone has a reasonable reason to believe there might be a major problem. The cash is readily available, but some problem or assurance is needed. Of course since I don’t practice law, I probably don’t see all the problems.
Kary, is a bit cranky today…………….I may have to send you a 500 Realty refridgerator magnet and 500 realty breath mints to patch things up.
Along this same line but off topic…Did anyone else hear Steve Tytler and his radio commercials on 97.3 during Dori Monson and Northwest nights and Frank Shiers?
Steve made it in my CRV. Good God!
RE: Ray Pepper @ 48 – “Steve made it in my CRV.”
Are you planning on selling it?
RE: AMS @ 49 –
AMS I gotta tell you. Its a 2003 EX and I truly think its the best vehicle on the road. Its got about 100k. Nothing ever goes wrong. Its a 4 cyl great on gas. When it snows its incredible. The heater is simply awesome and I have been using it the last week BIG TIME. Just everything about it. ooops there is 1 thing…
Road noise. Hard to engage in conversation when on I5 and certain types of noisy pavement.
I cannot imagine what else I would buy. I don’t like the 2007-10 body style.
I also have my 1998 Ram QUAD gas hog but that just sits around until I need it. The wife drives a 2003 Pilot. Also a great SUV that fits 7 but I will stick with the CRV. Much better MPG.
RE: Ray Pepper @ 50 – How much is it worth now that Steve’s been in it?
By AMS @ 47:
The risk to someone like Ray is probably less dealing here than when he’s dealing with a client in person. And perhaps Craig Blackmon is going overboard when he starts every blog piece by saying that “this is not legal advice and if you want legal advice . . ..” But when you answer a question by a person about what they should do in a specific situation, I think there is some minimal risk. At a minimum the risk is being sued, and when that happens, you’ve already lost.
Beyond that though, Ray’s advise is piss poor. That’s another reason he shouldn’t be giving legal advice.
Holy crap some of the advice in here is shady! Regardless of the potential to rip off your landlord with legal impunity, does it even cross some of your minds that ripping people off is just plain wrong?
Call me an elitist or whatever, but just as a matter of personal integrity, the right thing to do is honor the lease you signed and pay your effing rent!
[edited for tone, so as not to come off as a TOTAL jerk). :)
RE: TheJosh @ 53 – I know a guy who was paying rent after the home was the property of someone else. In other words, he was paying rent to a former landlord who no longer owned the home. Many situations demand one see an attorney right away.
RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 52 – I suggest putting the cash in an escrow account if there is a reasonable expectation that there may be a problem. Right along with that is notification to the recipient of the cash as to what has happened, and then consultation with an attorney.
This, of course, assumes that the person does not already have an attorney. If so, then such person should have spoken with his or her attorney before the cash was due, but there are times when things happen late, vacations, and so on.
I’m going to back off my advice to even wait until there’s a notice of trustee’s sale. Depending on the size of any deposit, and where they are deposited, there could be rights lost by waiting.
Kary, I have lived the last 20 years giving advice in Real Estate and Health Maintenance. I will ALWAYS give advice to those that want to hear. I will always LISTEN to advice as well.
But, seeking legal advice is only recommended after doing your due diligence and knowing the FACTS! Chris does NOT know the facts and does NOT need an Attorney . Did he need an Attorney when he signed the Leases? I suspect NOT!
I’m here to tell Chris don’t blow your CASH on an Attorney to tell you ” I think you need to be looking for another place to live.” You have already been told/hinted of what is going on. Now begin to DIG.
If you truly need an Attorney I have 3 great ones but they will tell you the same thing. PLAN ON MOVING at some point and secure your deposits.
Now, Kary if you keep this up I will no longer honor the breath mints and only offer you the fridge magnet. We are running a bit low on the personalized 100 ct case of breath mints anyway.
RE: AMS @ 54 –
“I know a guy who was paying rent after the home was the property of someone else. In other words, he was paying rent to a former landlord who no longer owned the home.”
I know 3 familes and 3 individuals this has happened to. All but 1 in Nevada. Due Diligence. When you get that note taped to the front door I suggest you read it and look at the dates. You should know your Obama rights by now.
Cessation of payments before you become another bagholder. You can always catch up on rent. But, you will never get a penny back from that Landlord. Invite your Landlord to YOUR home for a little sit down. I would like to be in attendance as well. I have the time its XMAS.
RE: TheJosh @ 53 – I believe Scoter Libby I mean Scottsman might call you elitist but hey you know it is all about oneself.
Take it outside and settle this like men. And stop clogging up the blog with this argument! JEEZ guys, if someone is really dumb enough to take legal advice from BLOG COMMENTS they deserve what they get.
Also, I agree with theJosh@53. What happened to the integrity of paying because you gave your word?! That all went south with the turn of the economy, I guess. I mean, cover your butt to make sure you get your deposit back, but within reason, people.
RE: Nixy @ 60 –
I Agree
We live in stressful tight times and sometimes the way of avoidance to the harsh economic realities today, in a psychological manner, is transmitting “what’s best for me” on all of us, instead of what’s best for all of us [even the bottom half of household incomes].
If we understand this, it becomes far less stressful.
Take it outside and settle this like men? What are you suggesting? Like a ping pong match against Kary.
I’m in! Or maybe a Chess Match with those giant 15 pound Chess pieces over at Cross Roads Mall in Bellevue.
A little spirited debate wakes up any blog.
I mean seriously did you want another chart analysis?
RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 34 – RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 32 –
What?
Sorry Kary you are way out in left field here. This is a residential lease. This situation has come up repeatedly over the years. When the land lord makes a comment about your living situation, you sit up, pay attention, and ask for answers. Even if you go to court the judge will ask what actions you took to resolve the situation.
The renter has both rights and responsibilities. If he has a lease he has recourses that will depend on the language in the lease, but even at that it is a residential lease.
Where are the damages; who can prove damages? A person being put out of a home, may have deposit money that needs to be recaptured, and should be finding out who they owe the rent money to.
Now you want some one to pay an attorney to figure those things out? You want an attorney to talk with the land lord? And if an attorney does talk with the land lord does the land lord need an attorney? Should the renter advise the land lord that they should have an attorney?
Good Lord!
RE: Nixy @ 60 – “Also, I agree with theJosh@53. What happened to the integrity of paying because you gave your word?! That all went south with the turn of the economy, I guess. I mean, cover your butt to make sure you get your deposit back, but within reason, people.”
That’s fine, so long as you get what you paid for, and you don’t have to pay again to the real owner of the property.
This is very similar to the Nigerian fraud cases. Simply put, if you pay your money to a scam artist, even if that person was the former owner, you could be out a few thousand.
Pay the rent as agreed, if you get the product as agreed, and if you don’t have a high risk of having to pay once again to the legitimate owner.
RE: AMS @ 64 –
It comes down to this….You do whats best for your family. Nobody else will look after you more then yourself.
You can hire whoever you want but once the money is gone and paid to the Landlord its GONE!
So many Attorney’s are simply WORTHLESS out there with even more “piss poor” advice then mine or Kary’s.
The Landlord gave you a WARNING. That was a gift. How you choose to accept this gift Chris is all up to you.
NEVER chase good money after bad and either way I suspect you will be moving at some point. They are all coming back!
(I’m happy I took the day off this was fun..Thanks Tim for the outlet)
BTW those who are not interested in this why complain. Go up to the thread and start your own piece on Tiger Woods or something. I never read something here I’m not interested in.
RE: Ray Pepper @ 65 – I’m currently helping a victim of ID theft.
The total theft is about $2,500, but it was broken down into many little components. What do you do when you’re the victim of ID theft and the amount alleged as owed is $25 from one party?
Sure I understand the philosophy of not paying when you never received any goods or services, but at the same time, when it cost more to fight back, you may spend $30 trying to prove you don’t owe the $25.
No matter what, time and money is gone.
By mikal @ 25:
I’m right here, just watching the fallout from the sidelines. Don’t post here as often anymore due to the fact that the bubble has popped. I was really only here to throw gasoline on the fire of the non believers such as yourself.
I still stop by from time to time to check out what is going on, but not nearly that active.
RE: AMS @ 66 –
Hi AMS:
Here’s my suggestion after ID Theft [assuming it credit card or debit?] occurs:
1. Call the company about the billing error and try to get a credit.
2. If they give you the run around or refuse; ask why, then ask for the email address of their billing department.
3. Email your complaint(s).
4. Keep asking for information, like “purchase order” proof.
5. Hope they tell you something like, a download cost for $19.95 each, when their website has nothing less than $39.95 per download [that's the legal purchase order in this case, their website]…..but every errant P.O. ID theft will have a different story…be a detective.
6. When you find an error [lie] in their story, document in your email trail.
7. Report it to the local police, the IRS and the FBI….LOL, the evidence is thee email trail.
8. Send your police reporting and copies of the evidence to the company’s attorney….LOL, the attorney will be horrified and may drop their client too.
9. Then send the whole police/evidence package to your bank has a credit dispute.
10. Future ID theft problems will be eliminated, because the Thre Credit Bureaus won’t be giving out your credit card number anymore to organised crime American businesses [BTW, they do]
RE: softwarengineer @ 68 – Not my ID. Not credit or debit card related. But those who make claims of amounts owed are required to give all documentation that supports their assertion. Then blocking requests can be sent to the major credit bureaus, and so on. The three credit bureaus put alters on file, and credit reports are being inspected.
The problem is that it costs $30 to fix a $25 problem.
(oh, and I don’t want to say too much more, otherwise I might be accused of providing legal advice…)
RE: AMS @ 69 –
Not if You’re Your Own Attorney….LOL
I agree….my small dollar fight with ID theft was for the hoards of little guys they got too.
BTW, only have 1 CC at a time open, much easier to monitor.
“oh, and I don’t want to say too much more, otherwise I might be accused of providing legal advice…) ”
too funny! Provide it ….Provide it!….
You can sit with David Losh and me in Court. Even more of a comedy routine!
My best friend was a victim of ID theft. It was a nightmare for him for years.
You know after my renting experience I wouldn’t trust a land lord as far as I could through “em. However, I have always honored my agreements if nothing else to cover myself. The idea of putting the rent in an Escrow account until all is sorted out seems like a good idea. You are covered for paying rent but you’re not paying it to the wrong person and when it is all sorted out you can give it to the correct person. At this point I would not even trust a landlord to give me a straight answer I would find another way to get the status of the house. It may have been an off hand remark by the land lord but as they say, where there is smoke there is probably fire.
Chris..How much are the monthly payments and how much did you deposit? Did you deposit first and last months rent plus a security deposit? You will likely never get your deposit back nor proper notice that you have to leave. Is the risk of losing that plus the hassle of moving at some near point not worth withholding the rent and placing it separate account where you can access it if need be? Are your payments more than the owners mortgage payments? If he can prove that he is making his payments then continue yours. Obviously if he is facing foreclosure he has not been making payments to the bank. Why should you pay someone who may be buying crack with your money and not paying HIS obligations and thus endangering you. See if your deposits are being maintained in a separate account as required. I doubt they are.. If that guy renting it to you goes through foreclosure you will never get your deposits back. You can pay an attorney to lose more if you so desire but reality is that money is gone and he will probably declare bankruptcy.
RE: what goes up must come down @ 59 –
Do you contribute anything to this blog except ongoing proof of your idiocy?
Maybe you need a new hobby, say, drinking beer? It would have to be less frustrating for you than visiting this site.
By Kary L. Krismer @ 32:
Henry VI, Part 2 act iv: scene ii:
Cade: There shall be in England seven halfpenny loaves sold for a penny; the three-hooped pot shall have ten hoops; and I will make it a felony to drink small beer. All the realm shall be in common, and in Cheapside shall my palfrey go to pass. And when I am king — as king I will be — there shall be no money; all shall eat and drink on my score; and I will apparel them all in one livery, that they may agree like brothers, and worship me their lord.
Dick: The first thing we do, let’s kill all the lawyers.
…William Shakespeare
Amen Brothers David, Ray, and William! Amen!
RE: Scotsman @ 74 – It is funny you throw out all these political jabs and when someone throws it back at you — you don’t like it, cry me a river. But I am sure you think of yourself as the wise all knowing Yoda of SB.
By David Losh @ 63:
I never said I wanted an attorney to talk to the landlord. But the attorney could tell the tenant what to ask the landlord. Or it may be entirely unnecessary to ask the landlord anything, except perhaps about the deposit.
It can actually save the tenant time to talk to an attorney. And as I mentioned before, deposit issues might be time critical. Not taking action at this point might lead to say the loss of the deposit.
By Urban Artist @ 72:
Assuming there’s no notice of trustee’s sale filed, then it’s very unlikely there would be any reason for an escrow account unless the landlord was holding a total amount of funds that equaled more than three months rent.
Also, in that situation it’s extremely unlikely that you’d be paying the wrong person.
Looking for something else, I found this piece I did in October about how agents should not give tenants advice in foreclosure situations: http://blog.seattlepi.com/realestate/archives/183114.asp
RE: Jonness @ 75 –
In Elizabethan England Lawyers referred to lawmakers, i.e parliament, not lawyers. Though I doubt many individuals would object to the culling of many of our esteemed lawmakers today.
RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 77 –
Legal advice, what does that mean? If I tell stories about the times I have been to court, or been asked to testify in court, or recount the number of times the public has been out and out lied to by attorneys, is that legal advise? Putting a rent payment in a separate account has been a long standing way of resolving rental disputes. It has a way of speeding things along.
As the Craig guy is so fond of asking, can you quote me the law that says that is illegal?
RE: David Losh @ 81 – That would merely be story telling. It’s legal advice when you suggest to someone how to get out of a present or future difficulty on a contract.
As to why it’s illegal, I’d suggest you read this: http://www.wsba.org/Lawyers/groups/practiceoflaw/0402realestateagent.pdf
RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 82 –
#04-02 ADVISORY OPINION
August 2004
NON-ATTORNEY REAL ESTATE AGENT
has nothing to do with what we are talking about. Number one, this is a residential lease agreement. Second is that all of the suggestions I have made are just that, suggestions, what if situations, and a how about you try this.
One of my very best pet peaves is that attorneys want to interject themselves into people’s day to day lives. This matter is between the renter and the land lord. A Real Estate attorney, in this case. would first have to read the contract, do the title search, and talk with the land lord before he could formulate questions. I fugure at least a billable hour. Now that an attorney’s involved the land lord should probably have an attorney.
Now first you would also probably need a contract attorney to see if there was any merit to the lease agreement before you did anything.
This is Real Estate. We deal in Agreements, between two parties. It’s best the two parties talk to each other. Less is by far more.
RE: David Losh @ 83 – There is no “residential lease” exception to the rules of practicing law. Also, as I think Ray mentioned, tenants now have either a three or six month period when they can stay in the house, and there’s the possibility that they might be able to stay there that long without paying rent. In a $1,000,000 house, that could be a rather significant right! Even ignoring the value of the deposit, that could very well make it worth seeing an attorney. Just because it’s a residential lease doesn’t mean it’s somehow a minor matter.
The one distinction I will admit is I don’t think the law practices board would come after you, or turn you into the prosecutor for giving advice here. That would probably be limited to situations with clients proper, and it would probably require repeated incidents. The exposure is more for legal liability than being bothered by the state.
My next blog piece is going to be a follow up on a bankruptcy primer for agents I wrote back in March. It’s about an agent who lost a commission that’s probably over $20,000 because they didn’t go see a bankruptcy attorney when their client filed bankruptcy. It probably would have cost well less than $1,000 for the agent to have protected himself (or saved them a lot of time if they had discovered they couldn’t protect himself).
Think of it like preventative medicine. Things you put off because you don’t want to pay a few hundred dollars turn into major problems that cost much more.
RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 84 –
Sorry, even the standardized lease prepared as boiler plate by a Renters Association is usually filled out by an idiot land lord. The language is questionable to begin with, and let’s leave the idiot part to the land lord who mentioned to a renter they may be going into foreclosure.
The second part about this goes back to the early 1980s and those fully assumable FHA loans. A guy here in Washington State was convicted of collecting and keeping rent money rather than paying the mortgage on over 200 loans he had assumed. A part of that action was that the renters were out the money and out of the property.
This new law about upholding a lease will also require, or should require, a renter pay rent. There are stock holders involved. So should the renter in this case secure his first last and damage deposit? We don’t know, and an attorney would never be able to offer the kind of remedies Cris has here.
So it’s nice to palm a guy off with the sage advice about an attorney, but the reality is an attorney is impotent in 90% of Real Estate related matters. Real Estate is a meat head’s business.
RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 82 – Consideration is an issue here.
[...] the link to Seattle Bubble and The Tim’s awesome foreclosure stats report for King County. Reminder note to students to be reading Seattle Bubble [...]
I have been following this blog. Very interesting stuff on here! I read and re-read a lot of the comments about landlord-tenant issues. First I want to say I agree with Kary. One really needs to consult legal counsel to look out for his/her best interests. I find Ray Pepper to be very antagonistic toward other professionals who are not in his circle of snake oil salesmen. Stop quoting nolo and wikipedia Ray and generate some truly unique thoughts and maybe you will be taken more seriously as a professional. My God! I thought I knew people full of hot air but you, sir, take the cake in that department.
Chris, consult an attorney before you do anything. Many attorneys will do an initial consult free of charge.
Best of luck to you!