Posted by: The Tim

Tim Ellis is the founder of Seattle Bubble. His background in engineering and computer / internet technology, a fondness of data-based analysis of problems, and an addiction to spreadsheets all influence his perspective on the Seattle-area real estate market.

173 responses to “Weekly Twitter Digest (Link Roundup) for 2011-08-13”

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  1. Kary L. Krismer

    By David Losh @ 97:

    Reducing a price to the point you can get an offer is a technique that has been around for a very, very long time.

    And in a normal sale or REO situation, you’re free to do that, because you’re also required to sell at that price. There’s no deceit involved.

    To answer your other question, your data could include either only other short sales or if there are not enough of those, applying some type of discount to normal sales.

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  2. David Losh

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 98

    Data has to be relevant to the sale for it to be of any use.

    A Short Sale is different on a lot of levels. In Ardell’s comment she makes the point.

    My opinion has been that the short sale classes, that gave thousands of agents the illusion of knowledge was far worse than what the Hecklesons were doing. We still have thousands of agents out there mucking up the process.

    It’s just an opinion, but what I know is this exchange has demonstrated that Kary has a view point far removed the actual Short Sale process, and it may even be the most popular view among Real Estate agents..

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  3. Kary L. Krismer

    RE: David Losh @ 100RE: ARDELL @ 99 – That wasn’t helpful in part because Ardell thinks that accruing interest and legal fees are going to affect a bank’s decision. Banks are not that well run, but they are not that poorly run either.

    For a bank to be looking at what they are owed in a short sale situation would be like a normal seller looking at what they want to net out of the sale.

    BTW, a tax lien (or judgment) hitting three days before closing can screw up any sale, not just a short sale. Just because a listing is not a short sale that doesn’t mean the seller doesn’t have financial issues.

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  4. David Losh

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 1

    There is no requirement to sell a Short Sale at any price. Ardell covered that also. It’s a gamble.

    Ardell also speculated out loud about why Short Sales are selling at a higher price than REOs. That is because banks think they have gone to heaven with all the high price offers that they are getting with Short Sales. Some agents actually bid up Short Sales.

    All of this is under what I called distressed property sales. There are ways to work those.

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  5. David Losh

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 3

    That’s not helpful or relevant.

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  6. Kary L. Krismer

    By David Losh @ 2:

    My opinion has been that the short sale classes, that gave thousands of agents the illusion of knowledge was far worse than what the Hecklesons were doing. We still have thousands of agents out there mucking up the process.

    It’s just an opinion, but what I know is this exchange has demonstrated that Kary has a view point far removed the actual Short Sale process, and it may even be the most popular view among Real Estate agents..

    Unfortunately many of those short sale classes taught the method which is resulting in suspended licenses and fines. It’s part of my “Beware the Clockhour Course” theme. A lot of what you are taught at clockhour courses is really, really bad advice.

    As to you last point, please explain to me how making scheduled pre-arranged price reductions on a property is the right thing to do, when you’re dealing with a type of sale least likely to get an offer. On a short sale the biggest problem isn’t likely price, it’s that it’s a short sale. That three weeks passes without an offer may not be evidence of anything on a short sale, other than the fact that it is a short sale.

    Also, keep in mind that on some short sales, the amount of the deficiency will affect either the willingness of the bank to waive, or the willingness of the seller to proceed if the bank doesn’t waive the deficiency. So lowering the price can on some short sales (depending on the lender and type of loan) affect the interests of the listing agent’s clients.

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  7. David Losh

    RE: ARDELL @ 99

    I’ve got to go back to work. Trying to explain, again, is feeding the fire here.

    As you have also pointed out on numerous occasions is these comments are read by the public.

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  8. Kary L. Krismer

    By David Losh @ 4:

    There is no requirement to sell a Short Sale at any price. Ardell covered that also. It’s a gamble.

    You’re missing the point. Yes with a short sale there is no requirement to sell, because you’ve disclosed that it is a short sale. That doesn’t mean, however, that you can list a property at a price that you have no reasonable expectation that a bank would accept the offer. Again I’ll use a waterfront short sale on Hunt’s Point listed at $125,000.

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  9. David Losh

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 6

    Because first you have to have an offer. It’s a part of the process.

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  10. Kary L. Krismer

    By David Losh @ 5:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 3

    That’s not helpful or relevant.

    You’re the one who thinks Ardell understands the process. She doesn’t, as demonstrated by the fact that she thinks accruing interest and legal fees are going to affect their decision.

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  11. David Losh

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 8

    Kary, it can be listed for $1. The list price is irrelevant.

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  12. ARDELL

    David said: “The holder of the Note may have called the Loss Mitigator that morning to say, “get rid of it.”

    Yes and no on that one. Usually there is no “it” on the other side above the level of the person with their nose in the file. The directives are based on bulk result for a given reporting period. They are more interested in their monthly, quarterly and annual numbers and how they will appear in their public reporting.

    So they can go lower on one because they went higher on another. Kary’s thinking they they should always want more on every “it” does not hold true. If their bogey for the month was to get $.60 on the dollar and they are at day 28 running at $.65 on the dollar, they can take less. If they are running at $.56 on the dollar, they will play harder to meet their monthly goal of $.60. They are looking at a bulk vs an individual result.

    The directive may be “Everyone has to get more than $.65 on the dollar for the next three days so we can meet our monthly goal of $.60!” Or it may be…”Close out as many as you can because we are well in excess of our monthly goal at $.60. Cram them in and try to get as close to $.60 as you can, but let’s close more out this month as we have more room to play in meeting our monthly goal.”

    The quarterly reporting periods (which may be different for different banks depending on their fiscal year) are more important than their monthly goals. The Annual Report numbers are even more important than monthly or quarterly goals. If they have met their objective for the Annual Report…they may stall everything so as not to mess up those numbers. Sometimes you want things to fall in the next year on purpose…or the next month…or the next quarter.

    There is no “it” in the room…except their “it”…not Kary’s “it”. They are not the seller of real estate focusing on this transaction…except for the one guy with his nose in the file. The directives to the file guys come from a higher place that is all about the bank’s goal…and not this individual transaction. They may be saying no today…or not answering at all…because their “it” directs that, and you can jump up and scream and wave your hands and call them idiots all you want. They in fact are NOT idiots when they are appearing to do “an idiot thing” on YOUR transaction. YOUR transaction is simply NOT what they need to be smart about today, conforming to your idea of smart, Kary.

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  13. David Losh

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 10

    It’s a balance sheet. They look at the balance sheet.

    I’m really trying to be nice.

    Short Sales have always been an option, the same as ARMS, and other exotic financing. Just because you don’t see it, or haven’t done a lot of them doesn’t mean rehashing it will be at all helpful.

    I’ve done a lot of Short Sales over my career. If I wanted I could be sitting at my desk with two hundred short sale files, all legitimate. Ardell has given a lot of good information here in a long rambling manner, but each situation is unique.

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  14. David Losh

    RE: ARDELL @ 12

    Again, correct, but not helpful.

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  15. ARDELL

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 10

    Kary…real life example…not my opinion. Not something I read somewhere. REAL transaction that I was involved in as the agent for the buyer. Not whisper down the lane. Not what “should” happen, but what DID happen. You do leave room for reality in your “opinion”, yes?

    Lienholder approved short sale. The 1st was on an automatic process of starting the foreclosure process on day X. On Day X plus 1 we get a message from escrow that Lienholder one’s payoff (who is being paid in full and not negotiated as a short) has increased by the legal fees of starting the foreclosure process in the middle of escrow.

    There is STILL enough money on the table to pay off the 1st, so the 2nd lienholder has to eat the cost of the new expense of legal fees of the 1st. OR you have to start from square one and treat the 1st as short OR the buyer has to agree to increase the price by the amount of this new expense. REAL example, Kary.

    The buyer was confused as he thought everyone agreed to a contract and the Sale Price. I wrote this for him so he would understand what just happened:

    http://raincityguide.com/2007/12/13/should-you-buy-a-short-sale-property/

    In the comments on THAT post…Kary disagreed with me. Surprise! LOL!

    Who cares…Kary wasn’t in that game…Kary’s opinion and disagreement didn’t matter. The sale closed, regardless of whether Kary agreed with the facts at hand or not.

    Kary…you have made a career out of disagreeing with me while I have made a career of being successful for my clients for 21 years. When are you going to give it up?

    What you think “should” happen has no relevance to the reality of any given situation. You just want to tell everyone who is in there working it that they are wrong…especially me. Truth is…I will ALWAYS be more right than you want to admit…that will never change, Kary. Even when the dust settles, the buyer doesn’t pay a dime more for the property, the 2nd has to take less because of the increased legal fees of the 1st, as in that REAL example in that link…you want to say I am “wrong”. Hahahaha! That lands me back at “stuff a sock in it”.

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  16. ARDELL

    RE: David Losh @ 13

    “Ardell has given a lot of good information here in a long rambling manner, but each situation is unique.”

    Absolutely! Each and every situation is unique and you have to be ready for anything and it’s not over until the day after closing.

    I’m heading off to Wenatchee for a day off tomorrow to visit a dear friend whose husband passed away recently. I don’t take a day off often…so I’m done with this.

    As you said, David, Kary will always come back with the same opinion no matter what I say. His comments here are no different than those on that post in the link from 2007. It’s a waste of time and I’m outta here… :)

    I continued a bit further at your request, because I respect your opinion and enjoy peer discussions with you. Talking with Kary is never a “peer” discussion…because he always plays the “he is right because he is an attorney vs an agent”. Some day he’ll have to decide what he is…and what he isn’t. An experienced agent who understands the short sale process will not likely ever make it to the top of his agenda. He’ll just beat up on anyone who is actually doing them well, and woohoo when someone gets a $20,000 fine. That’s who he is…that is not going to change.

    He will call me “wrong” about something in his dying breath. It appears to be something he likes to do and that brings him joy. I’m glad I could “be there for him”. :)

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  17. Kary L. Krismer

    By David Losh @ 11:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 8

    Kary, it can be listed for $1. The list price is irrelevant.

    David, you’re now reached the point where you know as little about legal issues as Ardell. That’s hard to do, but you’ve managed it.

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  18. Kary L. Krismer

    RE: ARDELL @ 12 – Ardell, I have one question for you. How many banks have you worked for in the past 4 years processing short sales?

    Seriously, you think they work on a bulk percentage?

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  19. Kary L. Krismer

    RE: ARDELL @ 16 – Ardell, I’m not right because I’m an attorney. I’m right because the DOL, NWMLS and an ALJ agree with me.

    Your ability to understand legal issues is worse than pathetic. You are to legal issues as Jim Cramer is to stock picks, except that he is right sometimes. You are right almost never. You are a train wreck waiting to happen. Seriously, you really need to quit expressing legal opinions because you don’t have the slightest clue what you are talking about.

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  20. ARDELL

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 119

    Haha
    on my way to Wenatchee
    Who was in San Francisco on a legal panel with Russ Cofano, one of the mainstay attorneys of Wa Real Estate, answering legal questions to hundreds of people in the audience?

    You? Uh…no…it was ME! LOL!

    Who did the random Attorney call when HIS OWN transaction recorded in his name…but his mortgage didn’t fund, freaking out about what to do?

    You? Another attorney? Uh…no…it was ME! LOL

    What happened when the buyer’s attorney didn’t show up at closing because he said there was no way in he’ll It could close it with 6 lien holders not in agreement yet? I closed it.

    If real estate were about things lawyers are good at, real estate agents wouldn’t be doing it.

    Great lawyers (and I know many…who think I’m brilliant at those lawyer thingies) don’t become real estate agents.

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  21. Pegasus

    RE: ARDELL @ 120 – Ouch!

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  22. Kary L. Krismer

    RE: ARDELL @ 20 – Just like there are bad real estate agents, there are bad attorneys. You apparently know some. But really, you expect me to believe that an attorney that called you over his mortgage not showing up was a “real estate attorney?” Seriously? Give me a break. Not all attorneys are real estate attorneys.

    BTW, attorneys call me too, only difference is when they call me they are talking to someone who actually knows what they are talking about.

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  23. David Losh

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 117

    Kary, just quit. How is being listed for $1 a legal issue?

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  24. Kary L. Krismer

    By David Losh @ 23:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 117

    Kary, just quit. How is being listed for $1 a legal issue?

    You’re offering something for sale. Did you really take the real estate licensing course and not learn about offer, acceptance, contracts, etc.?

    You really are falling to Ardell’s level.

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  25. David Losh

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 124

    You were talking about short sales. Using your logic a short sale could only be listed for the amount owed, plus back payments, plus costs, plus whatever might be due on closing.

    Is that the case?

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  26. Kary L. Krismer

    By David Losh @ 125:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 124

    You were talking about short sales. Using your logic a short sale could only be listed for the amount owed, plus back payments, plus costs, plus whatever might be due on closing.

    Is that the case?

    I’ve not said anything like that. What I’ve said is that you cannot set a price and then have an automatic schedule of price reductions into the future, without at least checking to see in the future if those price reductions are reasonable. And by reasonable I mean a number that the bank(s) involved are at least somewhat likely to accept. Just being wrong on that last part won’t get you in trouble, IMHO, unless you’re wrong with extreme frequency. Not checking at all probably will get you in trouble, IMHO.

    So, for example, you cannot have a listing with the following pre-set schedule:

    8/15/11 list at $350,000
    9/05/11 reduce price to $325,000
    9/30/11 reduce price to $300,000
    10/20/11 reduce price to $275,000
    11/5/11 reduce price to $250,000
    11/25/11 reduce price to $225,000
    12/15/11 reduce price to $200,000

    That is what some agents were taught to do in clock hour courses, and that’s what some agents are getting in trouble for. Again, I don’t know that was the fact pattern for the recent fine, and those are not numbers I pulled from the Hellickson case (but the actual numbers are available in the link to the opinion available in my blog).

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  27. David Losh

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 126

    That’s your IMHO. Your opinion has nothing to do with short sales.

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  28. Kary L. Krismer

    By David Losh @ 27:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 126

    That’s your IMHO. Your opinion has nothing to do with short sales.

    Realize David that I have actually spoken to one of the AGs who was handling the case against the Hellicksons. That discussion, and other research lead to this piece:

    http://www.trulia.com/blog/kary_l_krismer/2010/10/risky_agent_behavior–automatic_price_reductions

    After I wrote that piece the Administrative Law Judge came down with a decision which I have also read and understand. That decision can be found in the “opinion” link of this blog piece:

    http://www.trulia.com/blog/kary_l_krismer/2011/05/yes_agents_can_lose_their_license_by_pricing_a_short_sale_too_low

    My opinion is based on an understanding of the legal issues involved, and specifically about pricing issues involving short sales. I suggest you read the opinion of the Administrative Law Judge, specifically pages 15-18 and 40-43, and then come back and tell me my opinion has nothing to do with short sales.

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  29. Kary L. Krismer

    RE: David Losh @ 27 – While my longer response is awaiting moderation, read the “opinion” link of this piece, particularly pages 15-18 and 40-43. My opinion is only about short sales.

    http://www.trulia.com/blog/kary_l_krismer/2011/05/yes_agents_can_lose_their_license_by_pricing_a_short_sale_too_low

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  30. Kilen

    Hmm. I have to admit that Kary’s explanations tend to make the most sense to me. Listing a house for a value that the real estate agent -knows- will not be accepted by the bank simply wastes everyone’s time, and I’m not surprised that there are rules against it. (of course, proving that “knows” point is unlikely…)

    (admittedly, I am no expert in the area of real estate transactions; I’m just judging the arguments based on how logical they seem.)

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  31. Kary L. Krismer

    RE: Kilen @ 130 – Thank you. And everyone includes the bank, per the ALJ decision.

    Then there are the totally illogical arguments, like how a bank that takes 3 months to review a short sale offer cares about the accrued interest. I loved that one. :-D

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  32. David Losh

    RE: Kilen @ 129

    Kary has missed the point about Short Sales completely. I know what he says many times seems logical.

    Real Estate is a two way street. The agent making the offer should know how the process works. The person marketing the Short Sale is marketing.

    Kary has completely missed these points repeatedly, even though he has said the same thing.

    Kary has no idea what he is debating, his are just random statements.

    I say this a lot, but people need to be very careful about what they think they are learning on the internet. Kary has only muddied the water on this topic.

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  33. Kary L. Krismer

    By David Losh @ 132:

    RE: Kilen @ 129

    Kary has missed the point about Short Sales completely. I know what he says many times seems logical. .

    Again David, I’m only talking about short sales. If an agent prices a $275,000 property at $225,000, the only person who can complain is the seller.

    Did you read the opinion? You really need to do so.

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  34. David Losh

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 28

    Yours is only an opinion. The Hellicksons, as well as Kendra Todd, and all the agents who think Real Estate is all a slam dunk, get the deal, kind of business need to be reviewed.

    In your process here you are demonstrating why agents should be more closely monitored.

    I’ll wait for what ever is coming out of moderation, but clearly you have shown a lack of understanding about Real Estate as a business, or even a sales position.

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  35. David Losh

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 32

    I have read your Trulia stuff.

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  36. ARDELL

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 130

    Kary,

    AS IF there is ONLY ONE LIENHOLDER. I’m doing one now with FOUR! The interest on the first impacts the 4th only when the 1st isn’t short.

    You really have just not done enough if these.

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  37. ARDELL

    RE: Kilen @ 29

    That is why buyers and sellers always need someone who understands short sales. Because what makes sense to most everyone, including Kary, is just not how they work.

    Ever see a Zillow Make Me Move price? If you ask all the lien holders up front, they will all bid high like that…and the answer will not garner an offer. No offer…no closing. Some will tell you 10x what they will actually take. Usually 2nd & 3rd lien holders, hoping you’re dumb enough to pay them that.

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  38. Kilen

    Ok, I read up a bit on this, and I still think that Kary is correct.

    The judge’s ruling can be found at:
    http://cache.inman.com/files/stories/Hellickson_Final_Order_Aug_5_2011.pdf

    The pertinent section is 2.3, I’ll post it here:
    2.3 Whether the Respondent engaged in a pattern and practice of listing homes at artificially reduced prices, which were not designed to accurately reflect what the owner of the home was willing to accept, in order to generate multiple low-ball offers. Such conduct allegedly included dishonest advertising regarding the price of homes the Respondents listed for sale and engagement in automatically reducing the list price of homes the Respondents listed, which caused list prices to regularly fall below what the lender was willing to accept to release the lien on the home. If so, did such conduct violate any of the following: RCW 18.85.230(1), (2), (3), and (23), RCW 18.86.030(1)(a), (b), and (d), and RCW 18.235.130(1), (3), (4), and (11)? This charge is AFFIRMED, however, in violation only of RCW 18.85.230(2), (3), and (23), RCW 18.86.030(1)(a) and (b), and RCW 18.235.130(1), (3), (4) and (11). I do not find the charges of violation of RCW 18.86.030(1)(d) to be proven.

    Pricing below what the seller or lender was willing to accept in order to generate low-ball offers — it seems clear-cut to me. I’m not going to go to the effort of reading the exact wording on the RCW statutes, but I do trust them to be accurate.

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  39. David Losh

    RE: Kilen @ 137

    And what you are researching is completely irrelevant to short sales.

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  40. Ira Sacharoff

    When a buyer sees a home priced at a certain amount, he or she should have the reasonable expectation that the listing price is the price that either a seller or a lien holder will accept.
    In a non short sale situation, pricing a house low can be a great strategy, as higher offers may emerge. But if no other offers emerge other than the list price, the seller should be prepared to accept it.
    In a short sale situation, the lender does not let the seller or their agent know what they will accept. A good agent will figure out both the current market value and what the house would likely sell for at the foreclosure auction. While they won’t know for sure what the lender would accept, a good agent will have some idea and price it at or above that number.
    So why would an agent price a short sale home at a price far below what a lender will accept? Sometimes it’s an incompetent agent.
    And sometimes, maybe because the lender wants to see offers before they decide on what they accept? So if a house that on paper is worth 400,000 is only getting 200,000 dollar offers, the bank will change their tune and accept something lower?
    In any case, it seems wrong from a homebuyer’s perspective. When you go to a store and see a shirt priced at twenty dollars, you should be able to buy it for twenty dollars. It’s manipulative and wrong to give homebuyers the impression that a home can be purchased for a certain amount when there’s no chance that it could.
    I’m no legal expert,

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  41. Kary L. Krismer

    By David Losh @ 39:

    RE: Kilen @ 137

    And what you are researching is completely irrelevant to short sales.

    David, read the opinion before you continue to spout nonsense which isn’t true. It’s only about short sales. There’s another section about unauthorized price changes, and those could be normal sales, but the pages I cited you to are about short sales.

    Again, you’re becoming more and more like Ardell, just being stubborn and spouting a bunch of nonsense.

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  42. Kary L. Krismer

    RE: Ira Sacharoff @ 140 – The other reason agents do it is that’s what they were taught in a clock hour course. You can tell agents almost anything in a clock hour course and some of them will believe it.

    Some of the things will get you fined, like the suggestion I heard to claim listings on Zillow. Some of the things will get you sued, like the 1031 class where the teacher was claiming that it wouldn’t affect the buyer’s basis going forward, or to have a variable rate commission as a sales pitch to sellers. DOL is supposed to monitor what is taught at clock hour courses, but unfortunately they can’t monitor what is said.

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  43. David Losh

    RE: Ira Sacharoff @ 139

    That’s not how short sales work.

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  44. David Losh

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 40

    That’s a 73 page report that has to do with a pattern of behaviour by a set of individuals.

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  45. David Losh

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 41

    You’re throwing out more circumstances that should have a point, but they don’t.

    The Hellicksons are just three poeple out of thousands of real estate agents who knew nothing more about short sales than what they heard some place. Brokerages thought short sales would be a good source of commission sales.

    Short Sales have policy, and procedure set up by Loss Mitigation departments. Those policies have guide lines, but you want them to have rules.

    There are no rules in Real Estate. It’s all negotiable.

    You took one part of a 73 page document and tried to make some obscure point about Real Estate pricing concerning short sales.

    You clouded the issue, engaged in insults, and never came up with a working knowledge of the Short Sale process.

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  46. Kary L. Krismer

    By David Losh @ 44:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 40

    That’s a 73 page report that has to do with a pattern of behaviour by a set of individuals.

    Yes, but a portion of that report deal with how they allegedly dealt with short sales, and the legal conclusions of the ALJ regarding those alleged facts, and the punishment handed out because of those alleged facts. To say it has nothing to do with short sales is naive at best.

    More importantly, that report is highly relevant to what I’ve been talking about this entire time–pricing short sales at a price where the agent either knows the bank won’t approve the sale, or under circumstances where they have not done their due diligence.

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  47. Kary L. Krismer

    By David Losh @ 45:

    Short Sales have policy, and procedure set up by Loss Mitigation departments. Those policies have guide lines, but you want them to have rules..

    Again, I’ve said no such thing here. In the past I’ve said that they should process the offers with less delay, but that’s an entirely different problem with short sales. At no time here have I been critical of how a bank comes up with the price they will accept (other than perhaps saying something you wrote sounded like something I would write).

    But you raise a good point. Short sales are tainted by the fact that some banks take 3 or more months to review an offer. That fact means fewer people are interested in short sales. Short sales are also tainted by agents pricing them too low without any regard to what the bank is likely to accept. That fact also means fewer people are interested in short sales. Thus the activity I complain of harms not only the parties to the transaction (buyers, buyers’ agent, seller, bank), but it also harms all the other sellers out there who might need to do a short sale. And that probably explains why it was the DOL going after Hellicksons, and not the NWMLS.

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  48. Kary L. Krismer

    By David Losh @ 45:

    There are no rules in Real Estate. It’s all negotiable.

    Again this is just nonsense. As a broker you operate under the rules set by statute and the Washington Administrative Code. As a member of the NWMLS you operate under the rules set by the NWMLS, one of which is that you will comply with Washington law.

    Again, I have to ask how did you take the licensing course and get a license without learning these things?

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  49. Kary L. Krismer

    By ARDELL @ 36:

    AS IF there is ONLY ONE LIENHOLDER. I’m doing one now with FOUR! The interest on the first impacts the 4th only when the 1st isn’t short.

    You are correct that if you are dealing with a first that is not short, that can complicate the process. I recently had an update to a payoff on a non-short sale take over 4 months. It took so long because although the sale was not short, no payments had been made for months, which threw it into a different department. If you had that problem on a short sale, that could affect things because the second would specify how much money they would need to receive, and how much they could get would be reduced the longer all the shorts took to make a decision.

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  50. Kary L. Krismer

    By ARDELL @ 36:

    You really have just not done enough if these.

    Quit pretending your some sort of short sale expert.

    I’ll ask you the same question you asked me earlier. How many short sales have you done in the past tow years? And maybe I’ll even broaden that out. How many short sales has your current firm, and those currently at your firm done in the past two years?

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  51. Kary L. Krismer

    By David Losh @ 43:

    That’s not how short sales work.

    I might as well ask you the same question. How many short sales have you done in the past two years?

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  52. Ray Pepper

    golly! David, Kary, Ardell……………What the heck?????…I didn’t read all this but it appears very obvious you all need some violent love, a sale, or a great meal at Mediterranean Kitchen in Bellevue.

    Now go attain one of these prizes!

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  53. David Losh

    RE: Ray Pepper @ 151

    As you can see one reader bought into the idea Kary has information about dealing with short sales. That’s the problem.

    Short sales are a bank policy for hardship cases. Right now there are thousands, or millions of those. The Loss Mitigation departments deal with the shorts. Those departments function at a high capacity.

    The larger problem is agents, like Kary, or the Hellicksons, who get involved with short sales. The buyers and sellers rely on this information to make decisions.

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  54. David Losh

    Kary, you have no idea what you are talking about. The NWMLS just had a notice that buyer’s agents can’t contact the lender about a short sale file.

    They have to issue these warnings because idiot Real Estate agents don’t know what they are doing or what is going on.

    Ardell has explained the short sale process to you, in her way, it’s a little sketchy in my opinion, but she has presented you with solid information.

    You came back with the Hellicksons? I don’t know why, but that’s your focus.

    Real Estate is a negotiation. You are demonstrating an inability in that area.

    People should be very wary about what they think they are learning on the internet about Real Estate.

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  55. Kary L. Krismer

    RE: David Losh @ 153 – Yes, it’s really a problem that I’m spreading the news that agents can lose their license or be fined if they price short sales in a deceptive manner.

    Oh, wait, like Ardell you think rules don’t apply to you. I forgot.

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  56. Kary L. Krismer

    By David Losh @ 54:

    Kary, you have no idea what you are talking about. The NWMLS just had a notice that buyer’s agents can’t contact the lender about a short sale file.

    They have to issue these warnings because idiot Real Estate agents don’t know what they are doing or what is going on. .

    First, I’m well aware of the new rule and had actually contacted the NWMLS about it several weeks ago. IMHO it’s too broad because it doesn’t just apply to short sales. Last month I had to contact a seller’s creditor about a mis-application of a payment on their water bill. My client was concerned due to the possible lien. If that rule had been in place then I would have needed written permission to do that. In that particular case I was dealing with a very good REO agent on the other end. If it had been a bad REO agent, getting written permission might have been very difficult.

    Second, did it ever occur to you that Ardell might be one of those idiot real estate agents that caused this rule to be implemented? She’s talking a lot here about what she does with short sales. I guess we’ll just need to wait for her answer on her short sale experience, like we’re waiting for your answer.

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  57. David Losh

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 155

    You don’t know how much you don’t know.

    Hellicksons are a small foot note in the Real Estate industry.

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  58. David Losh

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 56

    When I was first told I needed to blog for my business I was horrified at what Ardell wrote. I asked several times how she could keep a license.

    Now that I’m more familiar with the Geek of the Week world of internet Real Estate business models I realize Ardell is one of the very few who has any experience in Real Estate.

    In the same twitter digest there is something about Glenn Kelman waiting for the New York Times to call him about an opinion. What a joke, except it’s so sadly true.

    Your comment, this comment, illustrates how little you know about Real Estate. The NWMLS and DOL are simply trying to catch up with an industry that has so many new entries that thought Real Estate was a good idea, at the time.

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  59. Kary L. Krismer

    By David Losh @ 157:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 155

    You don’t know how much you don’t know.

    Hellicksons are a small foot note in the Real Estate industry.

    I know footnote is one word! ;-)

    I’m not saying that the Hellickson’s are important. The parties involved in individual decisions seldom are important. It’s what we learn from those decisions, and what you should have learned is the DOL considers pricing short sales too low a violation of Washington State licensing law. And Rule 10(h) of the NWMLS rules require agents to comply with all applicable law.

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  60. Ira Sacharoff

    By Ray Pepper @ 152:

    “golly”! David, Kary, Ardell……………What the heck?????…I didn’t read all this but it appears very obvious you all need some violent love, a sale, or a great meal at Mediterranean Kitchen in Bellevue.

    Now go attain one of these prizes!

    Wait a minute, Ray. You may have done more short sales than anybody else around here, and all you can say is ” go get laid”?

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  61. Kary L. Krismer

    By Ira Sacharoff @ 160:

    Wait a minute, Ray. You may have done more short sales than anybody else around here, and all you can say is ” go get laid”?

    Wait, Ira. Some people here (basically everyone but me) have not disclosed how few short sales they’ve done. You’ll give away the fact that some here are only impersonating as being experts in short sales.

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  62. david losh

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 161 -

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  63. Ray Pepper

    RE: Ira Sacharoff @ 160

    I’m on vacation two more weeks…I barely had enough energy to post that from down here in Cal.

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  64. Kary L. Krismer

    RE: david losh @ 62 – I guess asking people what their short sale experience has been in the past two years really shuts them up. No David, no Ardell.

    Just to remind people, a few months ago Ardell was here touting her commission scheme, wherein if she is both the listing agent and selling agent, there’s a discount. Maybe she should refresh people’s recollection again on how often that has occurred in the past two years.

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  65. david losh

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 164

    You’ve gone way beyond what you don’t know about Real Estate. Short sale messes are what I look at the most.

    You should get with your broker.

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  66. ARDELL

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 164

    1) I’m in Wenatchee, as noted before, returning late today.
    2) we’ve covered this before and I have clearly done more as an agent in the transaction in my career and recently than you, but I don’t think that makes me better at closing them. I would say what has made me successful at closing all that I’ve come across is my understanding of the process, but I’m working on one right now and don’t want to jinx it. :)

    I’ll try to catch up on your queries here when I return to Seattle late today.But we’ve been through this many times before, and you don’t seem to retain anything other than targeting what you believe I am “wrong” about. I’ve closed all ive attempted, so I must be doing something right.

    I do think the very nature of short sales do break the mold and even some mls rules, most notably Rule 6. But short of prohibiting their appearance as listings in the mls, there is no way to make them and the people doing them conform to standards imposed on non-short sale transactions.

    I’m doing one right now, from Wenatchee, on my iPad. This one truly breaks the mold for many reasons. We’re in the final stretch in month 8, hopefully the final stretch.

    More when I get back in town on a regular computer vs my iPad.

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  67. Kary L. Krismer

    By david losh @ 165:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 164

    You’ve gone way beyond what you don’t know about Real Estate. Short sale messes are what I look at the most.

    You should get with your broker.

    David, give it up. Why don’t you admit to your (probable lack of) short sale experience?

    You’re the one claiming I don’t know what I’m talking about, but you’re bringing nothing to the table. I have brought the ALJ’s opinion to the table, which clearly indicates I know what I’m talking about.

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  68. Kary L. Krismer

    RE: ARDELL @ 66 – I’m sorry, but did I somehow miss your stating your (probable lack of) short sale experience in the past two years in that post?

    Come on people. You are claiming that you’re short sale experts. Disclose your recent experience.

    (BTW, for the consumers out there, the agents here will have access to this information. I’m just asking Ardell and Dave to state their experience for the benefit of others because they have been trying to claim how well they understand the process. Their reluctance to publicly disclose this information should tell you something.)

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  69. ARDELL

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 168

    Not sure quite how to respond to your answer, Kary, as information we access via the mls is proprietary. I don’t see any, ever, via you lag number either as a listing or a buyer controlled sale, which does not match your response that you have done one. But that was before I left town on Tuesday. These systems are not infallible.

    Pretty much every sale I’ve done, here in WA versus in my 21 years in real estate, is on my blog noting whether I represented the buyer or the seller and a link to each property. I am limited by mobile devices on my trip so I can’t link over for you. But everything is public on my transactions as to what.

    I’ll try to flip back and forth on the iPad from the list on my blog. Hmmm can’t do that without losing this comment. From memory the one in Carnation was fairly easy because the seller had moved far away and there was one local lender. But there were other unrelated liens to clear outside of the “true lien holders”. Can’t disclose the details of course, that is why it is better to speak in generalities. One you disclose which property, the details of each are obviously confidential. Of the two in Kirkland, one managed a few thousand for the seller to move out, but we did have a mess to deal with given the trash collection was stopped for weeks before sue to non-payment of water bill. The water was also turned off and the owner was still living in it, which made cleaning and flushing toilets difficult for the owner and his dog. The one in Bellevue had utilities shut off…the earlier one in Bellevue was harder, but Bellevue has since allowed for water to be turned on for inspections, temporarily for a small fee, which makes it a it easier. I did cancel one on Kirkland on or near 70th because a better one came on market, and we shifted over and closed on that one instead. Avoided disclosure of short on a few by coming up with funds needed…my host here in Wenatchee just appeared …gotta go…answering on iPad is cumbersome…

    Maybe you can answer me privately as to any you did as an agent, as none seem to appear in a search.

    The hardest part with short sales can be beyond the 1st and 2nd to back condo fees, tax liens and other judgments. Had one with an open lawsuit from the neighbor over the well… There is no one system or procedure to follow to close these. Following a strict and logical procedure would often result in sale fail. You just have to work them through, logical or not.

    Answering on an iPad has its limitations…will be back in Seattle this evening.

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  70. ARDELL

    Apologies for typos above…the iPad is not good for making long comments. Sorry, Kary. Not avoiding your questions…just away for another 10 hours or so. Doing the best I can..but I’m on a little mini- vacation in the foothills in Wenatchee.

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  71. Kary L. Krismer

    By ARDELL @ 169:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 168 -Not sure quite how to respond to your answer, Kary, as information we access via the mls is proprietary. I don’t see any, ever, via you lag number either as a listing or a buyer controlled sale, which does not match your response that you have done one.

    You also need to search my wife’s lag number, because on a buyer property only hers might show up, and you should find one of those within the past two years. On our most recent short sale listing I was not her co-listing agent (another agent in our office was), because the client contact was hers. That one fell apart after bank approval, on the inspection. Then there’s an older one which is on my name which might now be outside the two years, but it was also a bankruptcy listing but processed as a short sale (terrible idea I had). It did close, but you won’t find that as a short sale field because it was a sale free and clear, and thus only a bankruptcy sale (despite being processed as a short sale).

    That is why I extended the question for you to your firm, because I know you have a small firm and may be involved with transactions of other agents in your firm.

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  72. Kary L. Krismer

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 171 – BTW, I should add that I don’t really consider representing a buyer on a short sale to be much in the way of experience, especially now with the new restrictions. The main thing a buyer’s agent does, IMHO, is investigate the listing agent and determine who the creditors are, both to avoid stepping into a mess.

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  73. Seattle Bubble • Top 10 Most-Commented Posts of 2011

    [...] 172 comments, 08/13: Weekly Twitter Digest (Link Roundup) for 2011-08-13 [...]

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