Weekly Twitter Digest (Link Roundup) for 2011-08-13

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About The Tim

Tim Ellis is the founder of Seattle Bubble. His background in engineering and computer / internet technology, a fondness of data-based analysis of problems, and an addiction to spreadsheets all influence his perspective on the Seattle-area real estate market.

173 comments:

  1. 1

    Thanks for the update on the Hellicksons. I’d missed that one.

    IMHO, having read the decision that came up with the 10 year suspension, and other things, their further efforts to avoid the result are an extreme long shot. Unfortunately I still see some agents still doing one of the things the Hellicksons are accused of doing–periodic price reductions on short sales to the point where it’s obvious the bank would never accept the price.

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  2. 2

    I was just reading the NWMLS discipline for August, and there’s a $20,000 fine, $10,000 suspended, where an agent listed the property at what was not seen as a reasonable estimate of FMV. Presumably that was listing a short sale at too low of a price. Glad to see the NWMLS is now taking this seriously.

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  3. 3
    Cheap South says:

    “Washington homes are more affordable they have been since the Washington Center for Real Estate Research started tracking the numbers in 1994, and they’re likely to get even cheaper, the center said Wednesday.

    The median price of an existing home was $226,900 in Washington and $348,300 in King County, down 7.6 percent and 7.2 percent, respectively, from a year earlier.”

    Good thing they’ll keep getting cheaper. $226K does not sound affordable.

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  4. 4
    ARDELL says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 2

    I’m seeing one where the building had 3 recent sales…all at 50% off peak pricing. All short sales. The entire building was originally sold “at peak”. There is ONE new listing at FULL peak price.

    Does that person get a $20,000 fine? …or is it only UNDER pricing that is a violation? If the ONLY sales…3 comps…are at 50% from peak, does the rule work in reverse for someone who lists at DOUBLE the price of the last three sales?

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  5. 5

    By ARDELL @ 4:

    Does that person get a $20,000 fine? …or is it only UNDER pricing that is a violation? If the ONLY sales…3 comps…are at 50% from peak, does the rule work in reverse for someone who lists at DOUBLE the price of the last three sales?

    I think it’s only under-pricing, because with over-pricing the buyer can make an offer at that price, the seller will presumably accept, and the sale will go through. With under-pricing on a short sale the buyer can make an offer at that price, the seller will presumably accept, and the sale will not go through.

    Maybe you could make an argument that such listings have to indicate that they are cash only, or financing with 50% down, or some such thing, to avoid the possibility of financing not being approved due to the appraisal. But otherwise, they aren’t quite the same thing.

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  6. 6
    Macro Investor says:

    According to a Redfin blogger, home buying is actually up after the US debt downgrade and stock market correction. Hey, that’s good news. Let’s have a market crash every week. Housing will be recovered by thanksgiving. Three cheers for disasters!

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  7. 7
    ARDELL says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 5

    Really…they are the “judge” of what a bank will accept or will not accept? Sounds like a load of crap to me. It’s honky dory if a buyer unwittingly pays DOUBLE what the last three sold for…but they are going to pre-judge what a lienholder will or won’t accept?

    Most mls fines around the Country are $25. Fining $20,000 by 2nd guessing a “low” price is ridiculous. I think that is more about not wasting the agent’s time than protecting the buyer on a sale that can’t close…or they would be equally diligent about overpricing as underpricing.

    No one knows in advance what a lienholder will accept. No one. How about listing a home where the seller doesn’t qualify for a short sale? MANY short sales sell for less than Fair Market Value. Most even.

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  8. 8
    David Losh says:

    RE: Macro Investor @ 6

    Yeah, that was a load of a post to push sales.

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  9. 9

    RE: ARDELL @ 7 – Ardell, I’ve written several pieces on it, and it’s not a load of crap. What the agents get in trouble for is a pattern of price reductions with no regard whatsoever for what the property is actually worth. So as an example, it may start as say $250,000 and then be scheduled to drop by $20,000 every 3 weeks until it sells. When it gets down to $150,000 when every similar house in the neighborhood has sold for over $200,000, and the last time the agent even looked at comps was 15 weeks ago, there’s a problem.

    Here’s my last piece on the topic, which discusses some of the facts alleged, and the analysis of the ALJ:

    http://www.trulia.com/blog/kary_l_krismer/2011/05/yes_agents_can_lose_their_license_by_pricing_a_short_sale_too_low

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  10. 10
    Pegasus says:

    By Kary L. Krismer @ 2:

    I was just reading the NWMLS discipline for August, and there’s a $20,000 fine, $10,000 suspended, where an agent listed the property at what was not seen as a reasonable estimate of FMV. Presumably that was listing a short sale at too low of a price. Glad to see the NWMLS is now taking this seriously.

    I think it is more likely the industry trying to prevent dramatic price drops from impacting the rest of the sellers. If it can discourage large price drops on a home the owner needs to sell in a hurry it can keep it from influencing other prices and thus prop up the prices of homes in general. Why care at all about a listing price unless there is some other motive at foot? As long as an owner has agreed to do so why should anyone restrict pricing? Its about the same as the idiotic idea of using only non-distressed properties to value housing when the distressed properties are a huge portion of the real estate market. Not surprising you would object to this as it can impact FMV’s.

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  11. 11

    RE: Pegasus @ 10 – Hey Einstein, it’s a short sale. The bank has to agree to the price. You’re therefore showing your ignorance by saying: “As long as an owner has agreed to do so why should anyone restrict pricing?”

    You also wrote: “Its about the same as the idiotic idea of using only non-distressed properties to value housing when the distressed properties are a huge portion of the real estate market.” Again, if anyone here has a non-distressed property they want to sell at distressed property prices, I’ll be more than happy to discuss doing that at a discount commission. That should be a piece of cake. Put your money where your mouth is–if you want to lose money based on ignorance, that’s fine with me (after you sign the disclaimers I’ll require).

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  12. 12

    RE: Pegasus @ 10 – BTW, it was the Department of Licensing that originally took this on, not the NWMLS.

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  13. 13

    Here’s Harney’s take on how the Super Committee (or whatever it’s called) places the home interest deduction in jeopardy.

    http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/realestate/2015862851_harney14.html

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  14. 14
    Pegasus says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 11 – Well Carnac you don’t know for certain it is a short sale do you? You presumed. Yes of course the bank has to agree to the lower offer if it is a short sale, DUH! The lower the price the less likely they will approve it. What an amazing factoid! Obviously the seller and the agent know this as do the rest of the universe. Double Duh!

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  15. 15
    Pegasus says:

    By Kary L. Krismer @ 12:

    RE: Pegasus @ 10 – BTW, it was the Department of Licensing that originally took this on, not the NWMLS.

    I guess it might surprise only you Carnac but the regulators are usually captured by the big business interests that they supposedly regulate. The FDA and the SEC are very good examples of this reality. Regulators are usually prodded into taking action by someone with a vested interest and not the consumer. In this case I am pretty sure it was not consumers that contacted and implored them to stop the rapid lowering of purchase prices.

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  16. 16
    ARDELL says:

    RE: Pegasus @ 15

    The very idea that a bank owned or short sale SHOULD sell at Fair Market Value is ridiculous. How can Fair Market Value be an expectation of a short sale sold price? It defies any intelligent market logic for a duress sale to be expected to perform at equal to or greater than a non-duress sale.

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  17. 17

    By Pegasus @ 14:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 11 – Well Carnac you don’t know for certain it is a short sale do you? You presumed. Yes of course the bank has to agree to the lower offer if it is a short sale, DUH!

    A duh you didn’t realize when you said only the buyer and seller had to approve the price. Too bad you can’t go back and edit your ignorance out of your post.

    But really, you think the NWMLS is going to fine an agent because the price was too low on a regular sale? More nonsense from Peganutcase.

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  18. 18

    By Pegasus @ 15:

    In this case I am pretty sure it was not consumers that contacted and implored them to stop the rapid lowering of purchase prices.

    Again, more ignorance from Peganutcase. The DOL received 37 complaints, and they were not all about short sale prices too low.

    Why do you want to defend the Hellicksons? Are you also ignorant about who they are and their alleged practices?

    I will say I hated dealing with them on short sales, but their REO department wasn’t bad to deal with.

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  19. 19

    By ARDELL @ 16:

    RE: Pegasus @ 15

    The very idea that a bank owned or short sale SHOULD sell at Fair Market Value is ridiculous. How can Fair Market Value be an expectation of a short sale sold price? It defies any intelligent market logic for a duress sale to be expected to perform at equal to or greater than a non-duress sale.

    Especially when you have a more limited buyer pool. Only someone who has a complete ignorance of the basics of supply and demand would think that a distressed property would fetch the same price. Smaller buyer pool means lower demand. Lower demand means lower price. Econ 101.

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  20. 20
    ARDELL says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 18

    How many of the 37 complaints were from agents or brokers?

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  21. 21

    RE: ARDELL @ 20 – The opinion doesn’t say, and in any case you wouldn’t be able to tell. An agent might prompt their client to file a complaint. Although given the nature of many of the complaints I would assume they were clients.

    Examples of some of the allegations were: Unauthorized price reductions; Advising to stop making payments; Not providing documents after signing; Advising clients to vacate prior to needing to vacate; listing agreements with a 3-4 YEAR expiration date. Those sound more like complaints consumers would make.

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  22. 22
    ARDELL says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 19

    LOL! Kary…I think you forgot which side of this argument you are on. :)

    Kary said: “I was just reading the NWMLS discipline for August, and there’s a $20,000 fine, $10,000 suspended, where an agent listed the property at what was not seen as a reasonable estimate of FMV. Presumably that was listing a short sale at too low of a price. Glad to see the NWMLS is now taking this seriously.”

    You are the one who supported a fine for a short sale listing being listed below “Fair Market Value”. Are you suggesting that 4 identical houses have different fair market values, depending on whether or not they are short sales or bank owned properties? Please…tell me that is not the case. Who the seller is or is not has nothing to do with “fair market value”.

    There is no uniform measure of what “a lienholder will take” as it is dependent on the circumstances of each transaction, the same as every other sale. Does anyone know for sure what a seller will take…any seller?

    I got a call the other day from a guy in Georgia who bought 37 houses for “back taxes” at $5,000 apiece that are worth $100,000 each. What “God-Complex” person decided they can fine someone for listing at a price LESS than THEY think a lienholder will accept?

    What power would restrict how low someone can price a home…but not how high someone can price a home?

    Stop calling Pegasus a nut-case. It only makes him look better and you look bad. @justsayin

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  23. 23

    RE: ARDELL @ 20 – BTW, there’s also some information on complaints to the NWMLS in the decision. 40 complaints since 2004, of which approximately 35 were after 2007. 18 complaints in 2009 and 2010 resulted in discipline.

    I think it’s probably more likely that these complaints were filed by agents, but that’s just based on a belief that a consumer would be more likely to go to the DOL than the NWMLS.

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  24. 24

    RE: ARDELL @ 22 – You do have short sale data which would give you an idea of what a bank would accept. But again you’re ignoring the part about the price reductions being set up in advance, and being changed without doing any updated market research.

    You can’t tell me you’ve never come across a price on a listing which just looked ridiculously low and then clicked on the history and seen a pattern of price reductions. Banks can do that on their listings, because they’re willing to sell at the listed price. Non-short sales could do that too, as long as they’re willing to sell at that price. But on a short sale it just wastes everyone’s time (buyer, seller, agents) to have an absurdly low price listed, and if the goal of the client is to sell the property, it makes that goal less possible, causing them significant injury.

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  25. 25
    ARDELL says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 21

    I did a short sale back in the last recession. The guy had 6 different judgments from the lienholders on the original purchase loan, from the HOA for 5 years back dues, from a judgment for the car he was riding in and never paid for. He was more than UPSIDE DOWN…he was in a big black hole.

    At closing he was surprised that he had to leave the property and wasn’t making any money. He didn’t file a complaint, but he was honestly surprised that he had to move out and wasn’t getting any money at closing. I had to physically go help him move out AFTER closing, as he had packed NOTHING!. AND…he had an attorney during the whole transaction in addition to me as his agent. He would be equally surprised if they came and took his car away, even though he hadn’t made any payments on it in at least a year.

    Just because someone complains does not mean they have a basis for complaint. If someone is walking away without a foreclosure…and without a dime…they sometimes were not prepared for that to be the outcome…and they file a complaint as if they could have gotten a much higher price…high enough to make a “profit”.

    Now you may say that is H’s fault for not explaining it to them well enough…but I don’t agree. I have had the same woman call me four times in the last 10 days to see a house that is in escrow. She keeps saying “SOLD?” “SOLD?” I keep explaining that it will close on 9/1, it is past inspection, and if the buyer gets their loan (which we fully expect they will) it will be closed/SOLD on September 1, or thereabouts. We might need an extension on this one.

    She still calls me every couple of days and asks “SOLD?”. Not everyone is capable of understanding what is going on in a real estate transaction. So H had 37 complaints and over 300 sales, mostly distressed home owners. How much time did they take to figure out if it was H’s fault that they didn’t “get it”…and possibly they never would no matter how many times he explained it, and were just unhappy with the outcome?

    If they all got to stay in their houses and receive $100,000 each…how many complaints do you think there would be? People complain when they don’t like the result.

    I won’t represent someone who just can’t understand what is happening, and I meet many! But the reality is that when you are dealing almost 100% in short sales…you are dealing with a higher % of people who never understood and will never understand what is happening in a real estate transaction. The odds for complaints with that kind of volume and that type of product are much higher than for an average real estate agent.

    There really should be a lot more training in Law School on “common sense”.

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  26. 26
    ARDELL says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 23

    I’ve read a lot of the comments online and MANY are from agents or buyers who didn’t even bring an offer on the property! Often an agent complains when they don’t “win”. That’s the nature of the beast. Often a seller will complain when they sell their home and later decide they could have sold it for more. Often a buyer will complain when they do not win the house in multiple offers

    The definition of complain is often…someone else won.

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  27. 27
    ARDELL says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 24

    Until they make it a law that lienholders MUST give a firm price prior to their being an offer…there is NO way to determine what a lienholder will take.

    I just spoke with a friend of mine who is down in Georgia. He bought 37 properties for $5,000 each (back taxes) that are worth $100,000 apiece.

    There is NO way to determine what a house will sell for. If the bank doesn’t have good documentation…enough to pull off a foreclosure…they may settle for much less than if they do. There is no way to know what any given lienholder is willing to take. None.

    Fair market value is NOT different for a short sale than for a non-short sale. They simply sell at different %s of Fair Market Value, and no one knows what a seller or lienholder will take. A seller who wouldn’t take $650,000 may later decide to take $500,000.

    Mr. “Doesn’t Believe In Predictions” should not be supporting a rule and fine imposed by someone who deems themselves an expert on what a lienholder may be willing to accept.

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  28. 28
    Jonness says:

    “Center Director Glenn Crellin said in February that he thought potential house payments in the Seattle area had hit bottom, because rising mortgage interest rates would more than cancel out further price declines.”

    Glenn: Your comment is not true, and in my opinion, you are doing an extreme disservice to Washington families by repeating that kind of mindless nonsense.

    When mortgage rates were held very low during a period where lending standards were extremely lax, it created a price run up and housing bubble. The opposite of this is mortgage rates heading higher and lending standards getting stricter, which creates lower prices and a collapsing bubble.

    When mortgage rates rise, the monthly payment increases. Since banks are getting stricter and stricter with lending standards, there are less people who can afford to make the higher monthly payments, which translates to less people who compete to buy houses. Thus demand decreases, which puts downward price pressure on existing housing supply.

    If you look at single factor historical charts, it will appear as if this isn’t true and that rates have no correlation to house prices. However, you have to factor in the money supply in order to see the correlation. In other words, it would be different if the unemployment rate were meaningfully decreasing and wages were rapidly rising at a time when rates were going up, which would bring more money into the equation to compete for housing supply. However, this is not the case.

    Furthermore, I’ve been hearing this nonsensical argument since 2007 that mortgage rates are on the verge of skyrocketing. But, of course, it hasn’t happened. The macroeconomic situation will not change until the banks start lending their excess reserves. But they are reluctant to lend in this environment. It will require several more years for excess debt to be worked through before we experience meaningful changes which release houses from this vicious deflationary trap.

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  29. 29

    RE: ARDELL @ 25 – A lot of that is true, but complaining to the DOL or NWMLS is different than complaining on an internet site. In the world of attorneys a lot of bar complaints are generated by opposing parties–complaining that the opposing attorney didn’t do enough for them apparently! ;-)

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  30. 30

    By ARDELL @ 27:

    Until they make it a law that lienholders MUST give a firm price prior to their being an offer…there is NO way to determine what a lienholder will take.

    Again, they aren’t going to sanction the agent just for being wrong. There are other elements like having a repeated pattern of being low, setting the price changes up months in advance, and not doing any updated market research prior to making the change.

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  31. 31
    David Losh says:

    RE: ARDELL @ 22

    As long as we’re telling long rambling, disjointed, stories, I worked in a hotel in down town Seattle on a one year contract. It’s where I met my current wife. It was called the Seattle Inn, at the Denney exit off of Aurora. I think it’s a comfort inn now.

    The owners were a nice couple, but the wife was the one who actually was in charge. The place was in disrepair, and they wanted to either refinance it or sell it. The rooms were cheap, and they had a reputation that was good in the music industry.

    Anyway, one night we booked Public Enemey for a series of rooms, and a suite. Flava Flav was in the parking lot talking on the cell phone, and yes, he is the same in person as he is on TV. I was in charge of their room arrangements and comfort. I went to the concert, and was in the hotel most of the night because they were camping in the lobby with a variety of people.

    How this relates to the God complex, and that might just stick with Kary, is that even though the numbers for the Seattle Inn came in at a high number, no one would refinance the property. I said that going in. No matter what they did to improve the property it would never be enough. It needed a complete over haul. It also needed an image change.

    I started the rumor that Elvis had stayed there during the filming of It Happened at The Worlds Fair?. I began referring to the Elvis suite on the top floor. I sent press releases to the New York Times, and referred to the Seattle Inn as the rock, and roll hotel of Seattle. The rumor stuck. When I left, uncerimoniously, there was a sale in place, no I didn’t get a commission.

    The property had to sell for less than what Fair Market Value was. I needed a buyer who would take on the head aches of the property. It is concrete, and steel, and I had long talks with the original builder/owner. The building itself had a value. The income was good, but all the numbers put together never would have matched Fair Market Value for a property in better shape, with a better reputation.

    For me I was being paid to work the deal over the course of a year on a contract. Some one else would only have price reductions in the bag of tricks to get a sale. I agree that the strategy may not be the best, but some times that’s all you’ve got.

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  32. 32
    Pegasus says:

    By Kary L. Krismer @ 17:

    By Pegasus @ 14:
    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 11 – Well Carnac you don’t know for certain it is a short sale do you? You presumed. Yes of course the bank has to agree to the lower offer if it is a short sale, DUH!

    A duh you didn’t realize when you said only the buyer and seller had to approve the price. Too bad you can’t go back and edit your ignorance out of your post.

    But really, you think the NWMLS is going to fine an agent because the price was too low on a regular sale? More nonsense from Peganutcase.

    Double duh again Carnac. I did not say only the buyer and seller had to approve the sale. You are now lying to win your losing case. Please show your audience where I said that? Nada! You are also now lying about it being a short sale. You said: “Presumably that was listing a short sale at too low of a price.” Do you not understand what presumably means even though you used it? It very may have been but that is not what you said. Carnac the audience expects more from you other than to babble on ceaselessly with irrelevant factoids and lies.

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  33. 33
    Pegasus says:

    By CARNAC THE DELUDED @ 18:

    By Pegasus @ 15:
    In this case I am pretty sure it was not consumers that contacted and implored them to stop the rapid lowering of purchase prices.

    Again, more ignorance from Peganutcase. The DOL received 37 complaints, and they were not all about short sale prices too low.

    Why do you want to defend the Hellicksons? Are you also ignorant about who they are and their alleged practices?

    I will say I hated dealing with them on short sales, but their REO department wasn’t bad to deal with.

    Once again you stumble endlessly in search of redemption. Unfortunately redemption does not come with lies, obscure facts and twisting. Please show your audience where I have said anything about the Helicksons! Nada! Now you are claiming that “the DOL received 37 complaints, and they were not all about short sale prices too low.” Where does that apply in your original statement about someone(unidentified) got fined $20,000?

    “I was just reading the NWMLS discipline for August, and there’s a $20,000 fine, $10,000 suspended, where an agent listed the property at what was not seen as a reasonable estimate of FMV. Presumably that was listing a short sale at too low of a price. Glad to see the NWMLS is now taking this seriously.”

    You said that it wasn’t the industry first taking the action in a later comment: “BTW, it was the Department of Licensing that originally took this on, not the NWMLS.”

    I believe you are trying baffle your audience with baloney, false accusations and irrelevant material. Its not working Carnac.

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  34. 34
    ARDELL says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 30

    Makes ZERO sense, Kary. Are they fining the banks for pricing low enough to create a bidding war? People like you are complaining about short sales because you can’t pin them down and that makes you feel stupid. That’s the nature of the beast. Everyone and their mother is complaining about short sales from every angle…because they are a PITA and totally unpredictable!

    You have never liked short sales…that doesn’t make them go away NOR does it make the people brave enough to save their owners from foreclosure villains.

    I saw a complaint online from a buyer who didn’t get a short sale house. He was totally ticked off because he would have paid more than what it sold for. He actually wanted to file a complaint against the listing agent. He NEVER made an offer! His agent said he couldn’t make an offer because the Listing Agent didn’t return his call…and he wanted to file a complaint against the Listing Agent when he never put an offer on paper. Not HIS agent for not writing an offer…the Listing Agent for not answering the phone!

    The majority of people agreed with him, both the public and agents alike. People just don’t understand short sales…and that makes for complaints…lots of them, and most not appropriate.

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  35. 35
    ARDELL says:

    RE: David Losh @ 31

    Oh my God…David…you are not seriously telling us you LIED to push up a price of a property. You are not seriously admitting that in public as if it was a good thing. Please tell me that is not what you are saying in that comment. You started a rumor you knew was false to push up the property value??? And you are not ashamed of yourself for doing so?

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  36. 36

    By ARDELL @ 34:

    Makes ZERO sense, Kary. Are they fining the banks for pricing low enough to create a bidding war? People like you are complaining about short sales because you can’t pin them down and that makes you feel stupid. That’s the nature of the beast. Everyone and their mother is complaining about short sales from every angle…because they are a PITA and totally unpredictable! .

    Ardell, just because you might feel stupid because of your inability to recognize and understand what I am talking about, that does not mean that you should ever think that anything an agent does will ever make me feel stupid. I’ve explained myself 3 times, as well as linked to articles that explain it. The Washington State Attorney General’s office and the Washington State Department of Licensing disagree with your position.

    This is yet another time when you stick your head in the sand and repeatedly claim to not understand relatively simple legal concepts. This is not just me saying something. Two state entities are saying the same thing, and what they said was accepted by another attorney acting as an Administrative Law Judge. That attorney considered this particular practice to be the one claim brought against the Hellicksons by DOL which would result in the worst sanction–a 10 year period of license suspension.

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  37. 37

    RE: Pegasus @ 33 – Sorry that your reading comprehension is so bad. The $20,000 fine is against an agent I didn’t name. It is current from August discipline of the NWMLS. The Hellickson stuff is older. They received a 10 year suspension of their license by the Department of Licensing.

    Simple enough for you?

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  38. 38

    By Pegasus @ 10:

    As long as an owner has agreed to do so why should anyone restrict pricing?

    By Pegasus @ 32:

    I did not say only the buyer and seller had to approve the sale. You are now lying to win your losing case. Please show your audience where I said that?

    Done, although technically you only mentioned the seller. I pointed out that the bank had to approve the price too, something you presumably didn’t know.

    Yet another instance of your having a poor memory and poor understanding. You really are pathetic.

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  39. 39
    Pegasus says:

    By CARNAC EN FUEGO @ 38:

    By Pegasus @ 10:
    As long as an owner has agreed to do so why should anyone restrict pricing?

    By Pegasus @ 32:

    I did not say only the buyer and seller had to approve the sale. You are now lying to win your losing case. Please show your audience where I said that?

    Done, although technically you only mentioned the seller. I pointed out that the bank had to approve the price too, something you presumably didn’t know.

    Yet another instance of your having a poor memory and poor understanding. You really are pathetic.

    Once again you distort my statements and once again you presume when you have no facts that I did not know something. The fact is you lied about the statement and then you created another fabrication by presuming things that did not exist(your idiotic contention that I did not know the bank has to approve). Duh! I think your pants are starting to smolder as in:

    Liar,
    Liar!
    Pants are on fire!

    Way to go Carnac! You are the one who is really pathetic.

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  40. 40
    Pegasus says:

    By Pinocchio Krismer @ 37:

    RE: Pegasus @ 33 – Sorry that your reading comprehension is so bad. The $20,000 fine is against an agent I didn’t name. It is current from August discipline of the NWMLS. The Hellickson stuff is older. They received a 10 year suspension of their license by the Department of Licensing.

    Simple enough for you?

    And what does that have to do with you lying about me saying things about the Hellicksons when all I did was comment about the $20,000 dollar fine? I NEVER mentioned the Hellicksons. You were just trying, unsuccessfully, to poison my comments. Duh. Maybe you should go under the name of Pinocchio. You are a lousy liar. You can’t even keep your lies straight for an afternoon. You must have made a lousy lawyer.

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  41. 41
    ARDELL says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 36

    LOL…I agree Kary…you would NEVER feel stupid…even as you were doing the most stupid thing on the planet…you would not “feel” stupid. I totally agree with you on that. You would NEVER recognize when you were being stupid.

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  42. 42
    ARDELL says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 36

    MANY Realtors for YEARS had a written and signed “strategy” to reduce a price every 30 days for decades. I diagreed with agents about that 30 day automatic price reduction plan all over the Country since I’ve been in the business, and that had nothing to do with short sales. It was the standard policy of many agents. Now it is an offense worthy of taking a guy’s license away for 10 years or fining him $20,000? One guy here and there?

    There’s blood in the streets and they want to put a noose around someone’s neck and lynch him publicly in their outcry. There is NOTHING these guys did that other agents have not done throughout the history of agents.

    If you don’t know at least 10 other guys who did everything they did…you live in a cave.

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  43. 43

    By ARDELL @ 42:

    MANY Realtors for YEARS had a written and signed “strategy” to reduce a price every 30 days for decades. I diagreed with agents about that 30 day automatic price reduction plan all over the Country since I’ve been in the business, and that had nothing to do with short sales. It was the standard policy of many agents. Now it is an offense worthy of taking a guy’s license away for 10 years?

    I would agree that is a bad pricing strategy. Before the Hellickson case became public part of my argument against these automatic price reductions was: What normal seller would ever agree to that?

    In the case of a short sale the seller is even less likely to get an offer in X days, so why should it be more likely that they would be automatically reduced? 30 days at a price of X does not mean a short sale is overpriced. On a low priced bank listing that very well could be the case, but there the bank will sell for the listed price, so it’s an entirely different matter.

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  44. 44

    By Kary L. Krismer @ 18:

    By Pegasus @ 15:
    In this case I am pretty sure it was not consumers that contacted and implored them to stop the rapid lowering of purchase prices.

    Again, more ignorance from Peganutcase. The DOL received 37 complaints, and they were not all about short sale prices too low.

    Why do you want to defend the Hellicksons? Are you also ignorant about who they are and their alleged practices?

    I will say I hated dealing with them on short sales, but their REO department wasn’t bad to deal with.

    By Pegasus @ 15:

    By Kary L. Krismer @ 12:
    RE: Pegasus @ 10 – BTW, it was the Department of Licensing that originally took this on, not the NWMLS.

    I guess it might surprise only you Carnac but the regulators are usually captured by the big business interests that they supposedly regulate. The FDA and the SEC are very good examples of this reality. Regulators are usually prodded into taking action by someone with a vested interest and not the consumer. In this case I am pretty sure it was not consumers that contacted and implored them to stop the rapid lowering of purchase prices.

    By Pegasus @ 40:

    And what does that have to do with you lying about me saying things about the Hellicksons when all I did was comment about the $20,000 dollar fine? I NEVER mentioned the Hellicksons.

    These posts were about Hellicksons. I guess you simply didn’t know what you were talking about. Not a big surprise.

    You really need to have your memory checked before calling other people a liar. Otherwise they repeatedly prove you to be a pathetic liar.

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  45. 45
    ARDELL says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 43

    I might agree with you in a judicial foreclosure state, but a short sale seller has a drop dead foreclosure date that is usually 90 to 120 days from official default date. They can’t be on market as long as some of these 650 DOM listings. They have to get an offer in a limited time frame by design. To judge the actions the same as a seller who could be on market for a year or more is just ridiculous.

    The seller hired them to get an offer before it forecloses, and they are usually hired after the seller is delinquent. How many 3 week or 30 day periods does that give the seller and listing agent to accomplish the stated objective?

    If someone needs to sell their house in 30 days (thirty day home sale contingency) you might price it lower than if they have no time constraint. Who can tell a seller with a short fuse that they can’t under price the home to meet their stated objective?

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  46. 46

    By ARDELL @ 45:

    I might agree with you in a judicial foreclosure state, but a short sale seller has a drop dead foreclosure date that is usually 90 to 120 days from official default date. They can’t be on market as long as some of these 650 DOM listings. They have to get an offer in a limited time frame by design. To judge the actions the same as a seller who could be on market for a year or more is just ridiculous.

    The foreclosure process is about 11 months long now, if they take advantage of the mediation provisions, which they should if they are going to do a short sale. Even before those changes the earliest a sale could occur was six months after a default.

    Also, the trustee can continue the sale up to an additional 120 days, and they’re likely to do that if there is a good faith effort to sell a property.

    In any case, getting close to a foreclosure date might be a good way to get the bank’s attention and approve a sale! :-D

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  47. 47

    By Kary L. Krismer @ 43:

    By ARDELL @ 42:
    MANY Realtors for YEARS had a written and signed “strategy” to reduce a price every 30 days for decades. I diagreed with agents about that 30 day automatic price reduction plan all over the Country since I’ve been in the business, and that had nothing to do with short sales. It was the standard policy of many agents. Now it is an offense worthy of taking a guy’s license away for 10 years?

    I would agree that is a bad pricing strategy. Before the Hellickson case became public part of my argument against these automatic price reductions was: What normal seller would ever agree to that?

    BTW, here’s a link to where I made that argument last September:

    http://www.trulia.com/blog/kary_l_krismer/2010/09/risky_agent_behavior

    “Another allegation was that the “Hellicksons engaged in a pattern and practice of automatically reducing the list price of the homes they listed. The list prices regularly fell below what the lender was willing to accept . . ..” Again, were they alone in doing this? That’s a bit easier to determine, because agents can examine the price history of short sale listings by other agents. Some agents probably do this price reduction practice because that is what they have been told to do in some sort of a presentation on how to do short sales. There are a few reasons not to engage in such behavior, but because the agent has been told that it is the thing to do, they do it, even though they would never do that on a regular listing. Even though that wouldn’t be their practice on a regular listing, it never occurs to them that the advice they get at the presentation is not good advice.”

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  48. 48
    David Losh says:

    RE: ARDELL @ 35

    Well, it’s all speculation. I did try to get the rumor verified by asking the original owner, and many of the people around Seattle at the time. The rumor was never confirmed, or denied, but I did due diligence.

    The hotel does have a lot of bands that stay there. At the end of the year we were in a contest for the Rock, and Roll hotel of the Pacific Northwest. The Edgewater won.

    The price of the property was for the concrete, and steel. Getting more people to look at a property is a part of marketing.

    Oh yeah, and the property never made it to CBA, or NWMLS.

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  49. 49
    David Losh says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 46RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 45RE: ARDELL @ 44RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 43RE: ARDELL @ 42RE: ARDELL @ 41RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 37RE: ARDELL @ 35

    And the point is?

    Kendra Todd does the same thing today. There is more speculation that maybe agents shouldn’t be allowed to have 300 listings.

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  50. 50
    Pegasus says:

    By Pinnochio Krismer @ 44:

    By Kary L. Krismer @ 18:
    By Pegasus @ 15:
    In this case I am pretty sure it was not consumers that contacted and implored them to stop the rapid lowering of purchase prices.

    Again, more ignorance from Peganutcase. The DOL received 37 complaints, and they were not all about short sale prices too low.

    Why do you want to defend the Hellicksons? Are you also ignorant about who they are and their alleged practices?

    I will say I hated dealing with them on short sales, but their REO department wasn’t bad to deal with.

    By Pegasus @ 15:

    By Kary L. Krismer @ 12:
    RE: Pegasus @ 10 – BTW, it was the Department of Licensing that originally took this on, not the NWMLS.

    I guess it might surprise only you Carnac but the regulators are usually captured by the big business interests that they supposedly regulate. The FDA and the SEC are very good examples of this reality. Regulators are usually prodded into taking action by someone with a vested interest and not the consumer. In this case I am pretty sure it was not consumers that contacted and implored them to stop the rapid lowering of purchase prices.

    By Pegasus @ 40:

    And what does that have to do with you lying about me saying things about the Hellicksons when all I did was comment about the $20,000 dollar fine? I NEVER mentioned the Hellicksons.

    These posts were about Hellicksons. I guess you simply didn’t know what you were talking about. Not a big surprise.

    You really need to have your memory checked before calling other people a liar. Otherwise they repeatedly prove you to be a pathetic liar.

    You lied once again Pinnochio. Your posts to me were in response to my initial posts that had nothing do with with Hellicksons. Post numbers 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 17, 18 prove you were lying. You are lying once again. You either had a really bad day or you started imbibing very early today because you are completely incoherent. All you can do is make up more fabrications and false smears in your defense. I grow weary of making a complete fool out of you by exposing your bully board stalking and lying once again. Its too easy. How many times is that bully boy stalker? 10, 20, 30 or more? Tell us once again how the foreclosure document and fraud crisis will amount to nothing as you predicted. Hahahahaha! What an idiot!

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  51. 51
    ARDELL says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 47

    Time to back up my argument with some real data.

    Kary said: “…but because the agent has been told that it is the thing to do, they do it,…”

    Ardell answers: “And THAT is exactly why the guy should NOT have been fined $20,000! By your own admission, many someones are telling many someones to do that. So set a standard first that members are expected to adhere to…before scapegoating one guy who is just doing what he was told to do…along with many others. Set a clear and accurate standard of what someone is SUPPOSED to do, before fining them $20,000 for not doing an undefined “it”.

    Kary said: “I was just reading the NWMLS discipline for August, and there’s a $20,000 fine, $10,000 suspended, where an agent listed the property at what was not seen as a reasonable estimate of FMV. Presumably that was listing a short sale at too low of a price. Glad to see the NWMLS is now taking this seriously”.

    I responded: “No one knows in advance what a lienholder will accept. No one…MANY short sales sell for less than Fair Market Value. Most even.”

    I put it all in a nice chart for you, Kary. http://bit.ly/p4c8Zm Short Sales do NOT sell near Fair Market Value, so why should someone be fined for not listing it at Fair Market Value? The % of Fair Market Value differs from one place to the next, so how can an agent be penalized $20,000 for following an area norm?

    As you can see in the chart in the link, Short Sales in King County sell at 65% of current fair market value as the median. Short Sales in Snohomish County sell at 76% of Fair Market Value as the Median. That is higher because FMV is dragged down to a lower point by the higher % of REOs and SS on a combined basis. In NW King County, North of the I-90 and West of Lake Sammamish, Short Sales sell at 80% of Fair Market Value, and Fair Market Value is only 16% under Peak Pricing, whereas in Snohomish County, Fair Market Value is running at 23% under Peak Pricing.

    There is NO uniformity in what a lienholder will accept from one place to the next and NONE are NEAR “Fair Market Value”…so how can someone be fined $20,000 for not listing at a price that is reflective of Fair Market Value?

    Check the graph in the link…there is no way someone should be trying to hold anyone’s feet to the fire for not listing at or even near Fair Market Value when it comes to Short Sales. That’s ridiculous.

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  52. 52
    ARDELL says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 46

    Kary said: “In any case, getting close to a foreclosure date might be a good way to get the bank’s attention and approve a sale! :-D”

    BINGO! It’s not the % of Fair Market Value…it’s the time frame of being anywhere near the time when the bank will in fact approve a short sale…which is NOT 11 months in advance of the foreclosure date.

    The agent’s broker should be requested to check the agent’s numbers and make the correction if needed. EDUCATE vs PUNISH. You cannot start throwing around $20,000 fines like water and scapegoating people without first educating and setting clearly defined parameters. That’s just bullying, and if you are not going to round up everyone else doing the same thing…then you do nothing. Make them all take a class at the mls on how to price a home. THAT would be worthwhile.

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  53. 53
    David Losh says:

    RE: ARDELL @ 51

    Normally Iwould let this go, but how can you claim Fair Market Value, let alone extrapolate a per cent below that.

    My point is that REOs, and/or Short Sales are Fair Market Value, and any one paying above that trend line is paying way too much.

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  54. 54
    ARDELL says:

    RE: David Losh @ 53

    Really? You would call “REOs, and/or Short Sales Fair Market Value”? So the 81% of sales in NW King County should all be moving by 19% of the market? The people selling at $455,000 median price should all sell at $306,000 and gravitate to the price of short sales that are only 8% of the market? Why?

    Maybe you didn’t see the chart.

    http://www.realtown.com/Ardell/blog/tracking-the-market/seattle-home-prices-2011-fair-market-value

    I would agree with you on a building or neighborhood built and sold out in 2007…all are expected to be short sales or bank owned sales for the foreseeable future. But that would be an exception. If there is only 1 short sale within a mile of the house…all other homes may not be impacted at all, if there are enough non distressed sales in the mix.

    Short sales and bank owneds only influence the value of other homes if there are enough of them in a given area. In all of NW King County they only influence the entire market by 5%. The non-duress sales are 16% under peak and the market overall is 21% under peak.

    Interesting that Short Sales are selling for so much more than the Bank Owned Properties. 80% of FMV vs 63% of FMV is a huge difference. No wonder the Banks prefer they be sold short to foreclosing.

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  55. 55

    By David Losh @ 49:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 46RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 45RE: ARDELL @ 44RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 43RE: ARDELL @ 42RE: ARDELL @ 41RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 37RE: ARDELL @ 35

    And the point is?

    Kendra Todd does the same thing today. There is more speculation that maybe agents shouldn’t be allowed to have 300 listings.

    Huh? Kendra Todd is an REO agent. While Hellicksons did REOs (as I mentioned above), they were primarily known for short sales. Also, I’m not sure where you get the 300 listings comment. Kendra Todd does not have an unusual number of listings for an REO agent. Finally, I don’t understand why you would connect Kendra Todd to the Hellicksons in any manner whatsoever. I’m not seeing any similarity.

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  56. 56

    RE: ARDELL @ 51 – Have you really not ever seen a short sale listing where the price was obviously too low? I can’t believe you’re fighting me on this! Many of the things you fight me on I learn later that you’re personally involved. Am I going to search your listings and see that this is a practice you have followed? If so, your course of action isn’t to deny it’s a problem. Your course of action is to stop the practice before you end up with a license suspension or $20,000 fine.

    The problem with this practice is buyers agents get calls from clients saying: Check out this listing. When this fact pattern exists the agent has to do their own CMA before even showing the client a property, to make sure that the property is actually within the client’s price range. Agents should not have to do that. And buyers should not be mislead into thinking that if they offer $X for a property, that they can buy it for $X. And finally, are you really saying that it’s okay for an agent to change a price on a property where they haven’t done a CMA for months?

    BTW, in response to a prior comment you said I don’t like short sales. That’s not true. What I don’t like is the way that banks process short sales. It takes far too long to get an answer out of them far too much of the time. It hurts sellers, it hurts buyers, it hurts banks, and it hurts the market, all because banks have poor management.

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  57. 57

    By David Losh @ 53:

    RE: ARDELL @ 51

    Normally Iwould let this go, but how can you claim Fair Market Value, let alone extrapolate a per cent below that.

    My point is that REOs, and/or Short Sales are Fair Market Value, and any one paying above that trend line is paying way too much.

    That’s absurd. There are far more risks to making an offer on an REO or short sale. Why would people offer the same amount of money to take more risk?

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  58. 58

    Peganutcase, how can you possibly be so dense? The first post in this thread was about Hellicksons and the DOL. The second post was about some unnamed agent and the NWMLS. Both involved the same practice–underpricing short sales. Any post after the first two that dealt with the topic of underpricing short sales could be addressing either agent or either entity, because they both involve the same type situation.

    You really should quit discussing topics you don’t understand, which means you really should quit posting.

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  59. 59
    David Losh says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 57

    Define risk. What risk?

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  60. 60
    David Losh says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 58RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 57RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 56RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 55

    Though it’s an odd thing to defend the Hellicksons you do know how the short sale process works. You have to have an offer before the bank will do anything. Once you get an offer anything can happen.

    People also complain about Kendra Todd and the way she runs her business.

    The thing is Ardell has explained to you how the system of short sales works. You seem to be lost in the process. It’s a sales job.

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  61. 61

    RE: David Losh @ 59 – You really don’t know about the increased risk of short sales and REOs? There are many. I have an document which I clients sign off on so that there’s a record that I informed them of the various risks. People tend to forget when a bad thing happens that you told them it could happen, so it’s a CYA type of thing.

    Just as an example, when buying a short sale I’ll advise clients not to give notice on their existing tenancy until after the short sale closes, unless perhaps they have a friendly landlord. So they in effect have to pay an extra month’s rent just to make sure they have a place to live if the short seller backs out at the last minute, which is very possible.

    Another example. Often with REOs if you breach they can not only keep your earnest money, but they can sue you for the difference in price between what you offered and what they ultimately get. You also don’t get a warranty deed, for for any title issues you’re relying on your title insurance (which isn’t such a bad thing, but it’s not as good as relying on title insurance and your seller’s warranties).

    Do you really not know any of this?

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  62. 62

    By David Losh @ 60:

    Though it’s an odd thing to defend the Hellicksons you do know how the short sale process works. You have to have an offer before the bank will do anything. Once you get an offer anything can happen.

    Yes, the bank does typically require an offer before doing anything. But you’d have to be a pretty piss poor agent to not know that there is a price that the bank is definitely not going to accept (unless they know something about the property that you don’t).

    I’d have to look up the facts again, but I think in one of the Hellickson’s fact patterns they allegedly got down to $170,000 on a property where they sellers had been told by the bank it would not accept less than $240,000. An offer came in and the bank did not accept it, which was not a surprise, but in doing so the Hellickson’s, if the facts alleged are true, effectively wasted the buyer’s time and effort, and their agent’s time and effort. And that is why the DOL acts on these complaints.

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  63. 63
    David Losh says:

    RE: ARDELL @ 54

    Because I have advanced the idea that REOs, and Short Sales are the trend for a neighborhood. You’ve brought up how that might be true.

    I don’t look outside of Seattle except maybe out to Everett from time to time. I looked at Arlington when Tim had the Howard Bono post. I was very surprised that prices in Arlington were as high as they are.

    What makes sense to me is that bank owned or short sale become the trend for an area. That’s why I don’t think they can be ignored in an appraisal. If an appraiser sees a bunch of people have walked away then that should be a consideration.

    Then we have the idea of what fair market value is. The tax credit proved people will pay a lot for a very small return. There was a bounce in prices from an $8K inducement. I think this year people had a lot of enthusiasm in the buying of properties in June, then we have the reality of the debt debate.

    What I see from the Global Economic Thread is that we may just now be in a position, over the next two years, to see a Real Estate market stabalized.

    In the course of these next two years we may see who is going to walk away from properties, and who will stick. No matter what we are only now seeing a true market free from government intereference, and that is a stretch.

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  64. 64

    By David Losh @ 60:

    The thing is Ardell has explained to you how the system of short sales works. You seem to be lost in the process. It’s a sales job.

    I understand the process fully. The process should not involve lowering the price repeatedly so that you finally get a buyer to sign a contract, if there’s no chance that contract will be approved by the bank.

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  65. 65
    David Losh says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 61

    Yes, I know all of that, and OMG there is so much more.

    There again what are the rewards for buying a private party property? How about a FSBO?

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  66. 66
    David Losh says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 64

    No you don’t understand the process.

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 0

  67. 67
    ARDELL says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 56

    “BTW, in response to a prior comment you said I don’t like short sales. That’s not true. What I don’t like is the way that banks process short sales. It takes far too long to get an answer out of them far too much of the time. It hurts sellers, it hurts buyers, it hurts banks, and it hurts the market, all because banks have poor management.”

    OK…I stand corrected, Kary. You don’t like anything having to do with short sales, but that doesn’t mean you don’t like them. :)

    You are making my point. People who don’t like or understand the short sale process are blaming that process on the people involved. Did you even bother to do the research and look up the $20,000 fine guy’s listings? I don’t see any that sold very quickly for more than asking price that were short sales. Did the under priced house even sell? Did it sell for more than the asking price?

    You want to research my listings? Haha! Every house I sold in WA is on my blog…they are not exactly hiding. But MORE to the point…did you even bother to look at the $20,000 fine guys listings? You are hailing the fact that one of your peers was fined $20,000. That’s pretty sad, Kary. Did you even look to see what the guy did to warrant this extreme punishment? I don’t see any that sold for substantially more than the list price. I see MANY that expired because the price wasn’t LOW enough.

    Doesn’t “grossly under priced” enough to get a $20,000 fine end up as a home sold for well over asking price? Otherwise…who is to say it was under priced? Did it even sell?

    More to the point…are you ever acting in an agent capacity? HOW can you complain that a house is under priced? If you have a buyer client…why would you be mad that your buyer might get a great deal? Makes no sense.

    With all of the OVER priced listings on market, some guy get’s a $20,000 fine for UNDER pricing a listing, yet not one person ever gets a fine for OVER pricing a listing? …and that is something you want to woohoo about? That’s downright embarrassing!

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  68. 68

    RE: ARDELL @ 67 – 1. I know the agent. He works in the same field as me, so I’m not happy that it happened to him. But I am happy that the NWMLS is cracking down on this, because IMHO it’s just as abusive as a process as having repeated small price changes on a listing, if not worse.

    2. I did try to find the listing that brought the complaint, but was unable to find it. I have no idea how long it takes the NWMLS to process these things, so I didn’t know how far to look back.

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  69. 69

    By ARDELL @ 67:

    More to the point…are you ever acting in an agent capacity? HOW can you complain that a house is under priced? If you have a buyer client…why would you be mad that your buyer might get a great deal? Makes no sense.

    You really don’t get it do you? The house cannot be obtained at the price listed! That’s why they get in trouble.

    Why do you want to waste your buyers’ time making offers on houses that cannot sell? Don’t you ever look out for your clients’ interests?

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  70. 70

    By David Losh @ 66:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 64

    No you don’t understand the process.

    Just out of curiosity, what part of the process don’t you think I understand?

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  71. 71
    ARDELL says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 62

    I knew you didn’t understand short sales…but I thought you might understand real estate generally. I stand corrected again. You apparently don’t understand that real estate is not about what a seller or lienholder will accept…it is about what another buyer is willing to pay.

    Kary said: ” But you’d have to be a pretty piss poor agent to not know that there is a price that the bank is definitely not going to accept…”

    You’d have to be a pretty piss poor agent, Kary, to not know know that the only thing a buyer needs to worry about…when it comes to a house destined for foreclosure…is what another buyer is willing to pay. Who gives a RA what “the bank is definitely not going to accept…”?

    The ONLY thing standing between a buyer and that house is another buyer who is willing to pay more…same as any house that is going to end up sold. If a house is going to go from Listed to Sold…it will sell to the buyer who is willing to pay the most for it, regardless of what a seller or lienholder want or are “not willing to accept”.

    If they are going to start handing out $20,000 fines for listing short sales…they may as well just ban the listings from the mls system entirely. You don’t understand them…what makes you think anyone at the mls understands them enough to start handing out $20,000 fines? That poor schlub needs a jury of his peers. Better yet, let’s get a jury full of buyers who are frustrated by OVER priced listings…to decide if an agent should be fined $20,000 for allegedly UNDER pricing one…with NO fines, ever, for OVER pricing them.

    Dollars to Donuts I can find more OVER priced listings on market than UNDER priced listings. Yet someone deems it necessary to hand out a fine that is FOUR TIMES the normal HIGH to someone they claim has “an” under priced listing somewhere. What a joke.

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  72. 72

    RE: ARDELL @ 71 – Give it a break Ardell. Just because you have low standards for agents that don’t require them to do a current CMA before changing the price on a listing doesn’t mean that the DOL, the NWMLS or I have such low standards for agents.

    I know you don’t like living up to standards. For example your prior position was that it shouldn’t be necessary to even disclose that a listing was a short sale. What you still fail to understand is that when you list a property for sale there has to be some reasonable expectation that the property can sell for the price listed.

    You yourself complain about agents listing properties as short sales where the seller wouldn’t qualify for the short sale. This is really just a variation on that. In the situation you complain of the agent didn’t do enough research to understand their client. In the situation I complain of the agent didn’t do enough research to understand the market. Both result in wasted time for buyers and buyers’ agents.

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  73. 73
    ARDELL says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 69

    Kary…you are so worried about wasting your time it bleeds all over the page. You likely never looked at the facts! I spend hours and hours over many years trying to educate you on short sales, and you just want to be a grumpy old man sitting in a recliner chair throwing stones because you don’t agree with the short sale process.

    One more time!

    http://www.realtown.com/Ardell/blog/tracking-the-market/seattle-home-prices-2011-fair-market-value

    REO’s in King County overall sold at 51% of the median price of non-distressed homes in 2011. Short Sales in King County overall sold at 65% of median price of non-distressed homes in 2011.

    So if an agent lists a house at 50% of “fair market value” – (the price a house will sell without duress) how can you say the person should be fined, when the facts prove that banks…at the end of the day…may and often do accept 51% of fair market value? Why would there even be a fine for pricing too much under “fair market value” AS IF bank owned and short sale property sells at fair market value? How can “fair market value” even be said in the same breath as short sale or bank owned.

    There were plenty of homes selling in multiple offers, and the industry was woohooing all over the press about it. Aren’t those by definition UNDER priced???? Get REAL!

    Are we in the business of buyers and sellers, or are we in the business of protecting one another from wasting each other’s time? Isn’t that the REAL issue here? ANYONE who understands short sales understands that the lien holder does not normally give any indication of what they will accept without an offer on the table. ANYONE who understands short sales understands that the lien holder will often accept a price when the foreclosure date is near that they said NO to…many weeks ago.

    I see NO homes closed by that agent that sold for well over the asking price! NONE! So who is to say another buyer was willing to pay more than that list price?

    As to this comment: “Why do you want to waste your buyers’ time making offers on houses that cannot sell? Don’t you ever look out for your clients’ interests?”

    Duh, duh, duh…the ONLY thing standing between my client and that house is another buyer who is willing to pay more. It’s not about negotiating with the lien holder. My client and I don’t care if they get it as a short sale or out the other end as a bank owned. If my client wants the house..we don’t care what the seller wants…we care what another buyer is willing to pay! If the lienholder wants more than any buyer is willing to pay…that has ZERO impact on my client getting the house at the price offered. ZERO!

    What do you care if your client gets the house as a short sale…or at foreclosure…or as a bank owned. Getting the house at the lowest possible price is the ONLY fact in the room…not what a seller “wants”. It’s going to go to foreclosure, Kary. Maybe we have to wait until the day of foreclosure for them to say yes to our offer.

    The “process” moves toward a drop dead date…that drop dead date is the Trustee Sale. NO ONE can change that for you Kary. You can say you don’t want to be bothered with any short sales where there is no Trustee Sale date set yet because you think they are too much work for you, as long as you are willing to let that client go to someone who isn’t afraid of “wasting their time”.

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  74. 74

    I think I may have found the property that generated the complaint, and if so, it wasn’t periodic price reductions but one large price reduction. The agent at issue doesn’t seem to have a lot of listings with periodic price reductions, although I did see some. Keep in mind though that’s not the only situation that can get you in trouble. If you tried to list that one Hunts Point listing Tim pictured as a $125,000 short sale, that would probably get you in trouble all by itself.

    Usually when I see a suspect listing I’ll check the price history, see a series of price reductions on a schedule, then check their other listings and see the same thing. That’s the type of situation I’m complaining of.

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  75. 75

    RE: ARDELL @ 73 – Rather obviously you don’t care about wasting peoples’ time. That’s why you didn’t think you should have to disclose that a listing is a short sale. You think you can just let the people make an offer and then tell them at that point!

    Again, it’s not just me. The DOL, the NWMLS and at least one Administrative Law Judge disagree with your position. Get a clue.

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  76. 76
    ARDELL says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 75

    Kary…if the seller is willing to come to closing with the cash difference…it is not a short sale. If the house can’t be sold without lienholder approval…that must be disclosed, as it is a condition of sale and a condition of purchase.

    All conditions of sale or purchase must be disclosed. The issue that it is selling “short” of what a seller owes on it is not the disclosure. That the seller does not have the authority to sell without 3rd party approval is the disclosure.

    If the seller lists at a higher price…and the buyer makes an offer of a much lower price that causes it to be a short sale…then the disclosure that “at that offer price it is a short sale” happens at the time of offer.

    Those are the facts, Kary. You don’t like them? I can’t help you with that.

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  77. 77
    ARDELL says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 75

    Kary said: “Rather obviously you don’t care about wasting peoples’ time.”

    Just for kicks, Kary, how much time is too much time to get the best and lowest price possible? Doesn’t that vary from one client to the next?

    It took a year for my client to get a brand new house, short sale, at the price we offered, that they said no to…at first. In the meantime we looked at all other homes that met my client’s parameters for a full year. NONE were better than that short sale. NONE!

    No other buyer was willing to pay more for it than my client. The bank went out of business…the new bank said yes. They got the house.

    Yay! Who cares that it took a year??? As long as it continues to be the best house for them at the best price and not sold to a different buyer…it stays in the game, regardless of what the lien holder is willing to accept.

    Why do you care so much about what a lien holder is willing to accept on a short sale? Why do you want the agent to push the price up with no indication from the lien holder as to what they may or may not be willing to accept? Makes no sense. THAT “listing” agent represents the SELLER’S best interests…and it is in the seller’s best interest to get an offer, if for no other reason than to flush out what the lien holder WILL accept.

    Holding him to a standard of listing at what a lien holder will accept…makes no sense…given the lien holder rarely if ever tells the seller that…and often the price they are willing to accept is MUCH higher than what that house will actually…eventually…sell for.

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  78. 78

    By ARDELL @ 77:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 75 – Kary said: ” Rather obviously you donâ��t care about wasting peoplesâ�� time.”

    Just for kicks, Kary, how much time is too much time to get the best and lowest price possible?

    You’re missing the point. Your buyer cannot buy the properties we’re discussing. The creditor will not say yes to the sale. So how much time it wastes equals all the time you spend on it.

    I actually like it when buyers are willing to take time to get a deal. While such buyers are somewhat rare, because most people get impatient when they see a property they like, right now I’m fortunate enough to have two such clients, one of which I’ve talked out of making an offer on several properties because the price wasn’t right. But this situation we’re talking about is entirely different. Unless you offer some number over list, that has no relationship to list, you cannot buy the property! So doing anything other than that is a waste of time.

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  79. 79
    ARDELL says:

    Kary said: “Rather obviously you don’t care about wasting peoples’ time.”

    Kary…the number one person, who has clearly wasted more of my time than anyone else on the planet in my 57 years on this earth…is YOU. Do you care about wasting people’s time, Kary?

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  80. 80
    ARDELL says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 78

    Kary…back up your statements with some facts. WHERE IS THE PROPERTY that sold for WAY OVER LIST PRICE of that agent…and even if you find it…if I find 100 others over the last 5 years that bid up over the asking price…go fine all those agents $20,000 for UNDER pricing.

    I get it, Kary. I get that it is fine for some agents to UNDER price and some agents to OVER price…but for some odd reason this poor guy gets hit with a $20,000 fine AS IF he is the only agent EVER to list outside of “fair market value” and you go woohooing about it.

    I “get” that, Kary. Do you really think that guy is the ONLY agent in the history of real estate who UNDER priced a listing?

    Where was the outcry when homes REGULARLY bid UP over the asking price? Where was that outcry for under pricing, Kary?

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  81. 81

    By ARDELL @ 80:

    Kary…back up your statements with some facts. WHERE IS THE PROPERTY that sold for WAY OVER LIST PRICE of that agent…and even if you find it…if I find 100 others over the last 5 years that bid up over the asking price…go fine all those agents $20,000 for UNDER pricing.

    . . .

    Where was the outcry when homes REGULARLY bid UP over the asking price? Where was that outcry for under pricing, Kary?

    Again you do not get it. Of course you can have a bidding situation where the price gets bid up over list. That’s just how the market works, but it doesn’t mean that if you had been the only buyer that you couldn’t have bought for list. That’s entirely different than listing a short sale property for a price that is too low because the agent hasn’t done a CMA in three months and set today’s new price three months ago.

    If you’re just talking about a normal listing, if you over or under price the only person who can complain is your seller. They will be the ones injured. When you through short sales into the mix, then your practices start affecting third parties.

    Finally, I’m not going to go out and look for a short sale that sold for more than list. That would be a waste of time.

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  82. 82
    ARDELL says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 81

    Kary…what you are not “getting” is the lien holder is the same as another “bidder”. Someone who pushes the price up who is not available at time of listing. There is no difference…except…you can tell the lien holder no easier than you can tell a higher bidding buyer no.

    It is a 3rd party who bids higher than your offer…whether it is another buyer or a lien holder. Same difference.

    Capish?

    Now tell me how the listing priced at 2X+ the last three sales (because they are all short sales) is not a fineable offense? Isn’t a property listed at DOUBLE the comps even worse! ? OMG! What if a buyer actually paid that? How can listing at double the last three sales in the complex be OK…but not knowing what a lien holder will accept be not OK and worthy of a $20,000 fine?

    If you think a CMA is the be all end all of list price…tell me how people priced for MORE than CMA during the bubble? Makes no sense that it is ok to price way over FMV…but not under.

    If the ONLY sold property in a building are short sales at $250,000…three most recent sales…how can anyone think $500,000 will appraise? Isn’t the fact that it could never appraise at that list price a disclosure worth noting? Can you guess what an appraiser will do any more than you can guess what a lien holder will accept? Do you think any appraiser in their right mind will appraise that for $500,000? Isn’t that the same “waste of the buyer’s time”?

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  83. 83

    RE: ARDELL @ 82 – No, the lienholder is not a competing bidder. They want to be paid, not own the property.

    The lienholder is an entity that uses BPOs and appraisals to determine whether or not they should agree to the sale. And while they won’t probably expect the price to be 100% of the BPO or appraisal, if it is some amount below what that number comes in at, they won’t approve the sale. And at some point a sales price becomes so far below any expected result of a BPO, that it becomes a problem for the listing agent.

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  84. 84
    David Losh says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 70

    You don’t understand any of it. I would think as a bankruptcy attorney you would be involved in hundreds of these.

    Ardell has explained this to you in minute detail.

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  85. 85

    RE: David Losh @ 84 – I’m sorry David, but if you think Ardell has explained anything, you have no understanding of the issues involved. But in any case you said I don’t understand the process. Ardell has not explained the process at all, and if you think that there is some part of the process I don’t understand, you should be able to say what that part of the process is.

    What the process is not is this: Reducing the price by X thousand dollars every Y weeks. That will cost you your license eventually, and a fine. And again, I was critical of that type of process prior to the time the Administrative Law Judge came down with their decision, and prior to the time the state initially revoked the Hellicksons’ licenses.

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  86. 86
    David Losh says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 83

    Let’s just take this as an example of what you don’t understand. Did you learn this in a class? The BPO is an opinion given by some agent for a low fee. That agent is many times trying to get bank business.

    It’s a joke, but a part of the show.

    Stock holders may ask some day about how a property was sold for X amount of dollars, so some body may want to cover the a$$. It makes no difference, it’s an excercise in futility, it’s just something for people to do.

    The note holder can do what they want, but who has the note? Where’s the note? That’s the second part of the game you don’t understand. All notes are negotiable, that’s what makes them securities.

    I don’t have the patience Ardell does, but she did expalin it to you a couple of weeks ago. You just keep coming back without knowledge.

    You’re a bankruptcy attorney. You must have been through at least a hundred short sales in your career. Did you get a BPO, or did the Trustee get a BPO?

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  87. 87

    RE: David Losh @ 86 – The first paragraph sounds almost verbatim of something I’ve written in the past, but for the 5th time here, an agent isn’t going to get in trouble just because the price on a short sale is low! The criteria to be sanctioned isn’t whether or not an agent guessed what price a bank was going to say is okay on a short sale. How many ways do I have to say that for it to start to sink in?

    Also, not all notes are negotiable and being negotiable doesn’t make them securities. And bankruptcy trustees in my day didn’t do short sales. They’re just now starting to figure out how to combine a short sale with a bankruptcy sale. When a trustee wanted to sell a property, they would hire and agent who would advise them of the price to list it at, just like a normal seller would do.

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  88. 88
    ARDELL says:

    OK…Whacko Agent Weekend is over guys. Put a sock in it until Friday night :)

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  89. 89

    RE: ARDELL @ 88 – Ardell, don’t start with your insults again. You’re hardly in a position to be calling others whackos when your positions are opposite that of the Department of Licensing, the NWMLS and at least one Administrative Law Judge. Very typical though, when you don’t understand something, you think everyone else is wrong (reference your position on arms length notices).

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  90. 90
    David Losh says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 87

    Just now?

    Kary, short sales have always been an option.

    Second, the ability for notes to be bought, sold, and traded is what makes Mortgage Backed Securities.

    Last, but not least, everything is negotiable. That’s what Real Estate is all about. It’s about your ability to negotiate.

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  91. 91
    David Losh says:

    RE: ARDELL @ 88

    You engaged Kary on this topic. Now we have a long comment thread of misdirection, and disinformation. It should be unwound.

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  92. 92
    ARDELL says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 89

    Only one question for you Kary. Have you personally ever listed a short sale or closed a short sale transaction for a buyer client?

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  93. 93

    RE: ARDELL @ 92 – Yes to each question, although not many of either. I don’t generally take short sale listings, and most buyers have no interest in them.

    Interesting though that you ask the question. Why do you think I have a form that I require buyers to sign that are buying a short sale? You you think I create forms for situations that never occur? ;-)

    I don’t understand though why you think that is relevant to the issue of whether it’s okay to take a short sale listing and set a schedule of price reductions in advance every X weeks.

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  94. 94
    David Losh says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 93

    Because some times, or at the time, that is all you’ve got.

    You may be making a valid point that the Buyer’s Agent should know that a price to low won’t close, but then again you never know what can happen.

    Short Sales have always had a procedure. The Hecklesons had every right to solicit offers on the Short Sales. It didn’t change the procedures that are in place.

    Should the buying public be educated in how the process works? Sure. Should brokerages educate agents? Absolutely. But just because a bunch of agents got involved with short sales without any clue about what they were doing doesn’t change the process.

    Your assertion that banks need to change the policies and procedure to accomodate a bunch of Real Estate agents is another problem.

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  95. 95

    RE: David Losh @ 94 – David, agents have to comply with certain standards of care or practice. How can an agent possibly be doing that if they set a price months in advance and then don’t even check the market prior to actually changing the price?

    If a listing takes even a week to get ready, I’ll update my CMA data before discussing the final price with the owner. If any price changes are going to be made during the listing, I’ll update my CMA data before discussing the change with the owner.

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  96. 96
    ARDELL says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 93

    I don’t understand why you think an agent should do a CMA after a property is listed for sale. There are so very many things we don’t understand about one another, Kary.

    The difference is I recognize that there are many ways to approach our business at hand, and many agents who do things differently and successfully. You want to penalize or call people WRONG if they don’t agree with you at every turn.

    Once you have your starting price and put the property on market, a CMA is of no value. That would be like a football player sitting in the middle of the field watching a training video when they are in the middle of a game.

    Once you are on market, you are tweaking what you have already decided as to price based on how the market is receiving that studied result. You don’t keep staring at “the comps” and saying it “should” sell at that price. That’s like neighbors pricing off the active but not sold listings of their neighbors, all of whom used a CMA to establish list price, and we see that all the time.

    What “should” happen and what “does” happen, is not always a match. A CMA tells you what “should” happen. Once you are listed your decisions are based on what does or does not happen…not on a “CMA”.

    Whether it is a short sale or not, you have a time frame within which your client needs the property to be sold. Going back to 1990, nothing has changed in the way a listing is “worked” and it doesn’t involve a CMA once you are on market. Yes, you need to keep track of what is happening with the properties nearby…but for the most part what is happening nearby goes out the window, once you are on market.

    Before you list the property, you put blinders on and base the price on a CMA. Once you are on market, you take the blinders off and look at what people are actually buying with their dollars…which can be no where near that house or something that would appear in a CMA. Once you are IN the game…you don’t keep running the training video…you have to play the game based on what the other players are doing…which may or may not be what the CMA-training video told you might happen.

    As Dr. Phil would say, “Do you want to be successful, or do you want to be right?” My clients want to succeed at what they are trying to do. Yes there are parameters we must adhere to…but doing a CMA after we are on market is not one of them…and clearly your idea that someone should get a $20,000 for not having done so is ludicrous.

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  97. 97
    David Losh says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 95

    Geez, that’s nice, and I have done CMA updates also for listings just to have them for negotiation with a buyer’s agent.

    On the other hand you have said that people don’t make offers on short sales, or bank owned properties. So if you are doing a CMA would that CMA only include short sales?

    The Helcklesons were soliciting offers. Fair Market Value, as many people have said, is what a buyer will pay. Reducing a price to the point you can get an offer is a technique that has been around for a very, very long time.

    Also, you don’t know what will happen in a short sale. The holder of the Note may have called the Loss Mitigator that morning to say, “get rid of it.”

    You just don’t know what you don’t know.

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  98. 98

    By ARDELL @ 96:

    I don’t understand why you think an agent should do a CMA after a property is listed for sale. .

    . . .
    Before you list the property, you put blinders on and base the price on a CMA. Once you are on market, you take the blinders off and look at what people are actually buying with their dollars…which can be no where near that house or something that would appear in a CMA. .

    First, I said CMA data. Don’t get hung up on terminology.

    Second, given that I’m talking about data, I don’t see how what I’m saying is any different than what you’re saying. Part of CMA data is looking “at what people are actually buying with their dollars.” That’s actually the most important part, although your active competition can also be important, and that is also data.

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  99. 99
    ARDELL says:

    RE: David Losh @ 94

    Trying to set hard and fast rules about how everyone should do a short sale is like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. The truth of the matter is a short sale is a house that is MAYBE for sale. No way to change that fact.

    A short sale lacks the basic requirement: of a home for sale, a seller who has the authority to sell it, at the price at which it will sell.

    First you have to find the price at which it will sell (get an offer)…then you have to get the lien holders to agree to come down to that price so it can close.

    A short sale escrow is no different than a regular sale, in that escrow orders the payoffs. The only difference is the payoffs are in excess of the net proceeds with which to pay them. That is why it is always an “end run”. Too many people, agents buyers and sellers alike, think the lienholders’ approve the “contract” or “price”. What they are doing is approving the short payoff…which is a moving target as interest and penalties build while on market, and even while in escrow. That is true of EVERY sale that does not close “on time”, as in the end date of the payoff amount.

    Even if you do close by the end date in the payoff, the costs for the 1st can increase by legal fees…causing the payoff on the 2nd to be less than agreed. OR a Federal Tax Lien can hit 3 days before closing, and throw everything out of whack. That is the nature of the beast and why people need to understand the lienholders are not approving a contract or a contract price. Yes, they can add stipulations to the contract, and often do, like the buyer cannot have a close relationship to the seller. But when it comes to money…the contract price is NOT what is being negotiated. The payoffs are what are being negotiated.

    If I can’t educate a smart guy like Kary on the process…how likely is it that we will be able to educate all agents, powers that be, buyers and sellers on the process? Slim to none. We just have to work them out of the system…one at a time…each to its own conclusion…and throwing $20,000 fines at the people doing that is not going to help matters.

    A short sale is simply a seller hoping to sell a house before it forecloses. Sometimes that is possible. Sometimes it isn’t. Often the 2nd will hang in there trying to get $.80 on the dollar until they are nearing foreclosure and the point where they will get nothing. That is why forcing agents to keep the price high based on what the 2nd wants on day minus 90 is a huge disadvantage to the buyer of that home. They will end up paying $.80 on the dollar when they could have paid $.05 on the dollar on that 2nd.

    The seller has one objective, to close as a short sale before it forecloses.

    The buyer has a different objective, to close at the lowest possible price.

    The agents have a different objective, to force it to conform to what they know and the procedures set for “normal” sales, so they can apply their regular “systems” to the short sale process.

    If you represent the seller…you look at it from the seller’s objective.

    If you represent the buyer…you look at it from the buyer’s objective.

    If you want things to be different than they are so you can maneuver better and in a way you understand, you throw $20,000 fines at the people who are representing the buyers and sellers well, because you are pissed off at the process.

    Where does Kary’s argument fall? It’s fine for Kary to think and feel that way. It is not fine for Kary to think everyone who does not do things the way he does them is WRONG and worthy of a $20,000 fine for disagreeing with HIS idea of how HE would do it IF he were doing it. He’s being a backseat driver. He is Kibitzing. And the only people who know what do with with the transaction are the parties in interest. How dare someone throw a $20,000 fine at someone trying to do a very difficult job the best they can. Shameful.

    Kary wants to be the expert in the room because he is a lawyer…not because he has the most experience with the process or even the most experience as a real estate agent. He always wants to play the “I’m always right because I am a lawyer” card. It infuriates him when he is wrong…or should I say…when everyone else is wrong.

    I allow for agents to represent their clients best and well…and 2nd guessing them every step of the way only shows one’s ignorance. It may be an enjoyable pastime for some, like the Monday sports talk show after the big game on Sunday. But to impose the way you do things or “would” have done them on the guys in there rolling up their sleeves and getting their hands dirty and their brows full of sweat by working it…well, you better be gollyed sure you are right before throwing out $20,000 fines at them.

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  100. 100
    David Losh says:

    RE: ARDELL @ 99

    That wasn’t helpful.

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  101. 101

    By David Losh @ 97:

    Reducing a price to the point you can get an offer is a technique that has been around for a very, very long time.

    And in a normal sale or REO situation, you’re free to do that, because you’re also required to sell at that price. There’s no deceit involved.

    To answer your other question, your data could include either only other short sales or if there are not enough of those, applying some type of discount to normal sales.

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  102. 102
    David Losh says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 98

    Data has to be relevant to the sale for it to be of any use.

    A Short Sale is different on a lot of levels. In Ardell’s comment she makes the point.

    My opinion has been that the short sale classes, that gave thousands of agents the illusion of knowledge was far worse than what the Hecklesons were doing. We still have thousands of agents out there mucking up the process.

    It’s just an opinion, but what I know is this exchange has demonstrated that Kary has a view point far removed the actual Short Sale process, and it may even be the most popular view among Real Estate agents..

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  103. 103

    RE: David Losh @ 100RE: ARDELL @ 99 – That wasn’t helpful in part because Ardell thinks that accruing interest and legal fees are going to affect a bank’s decision. Banks are not that well run, but they are not that poorly run either.

    For a bank to be looking at what they are owed in a short sale situation would be like a normal seller looking at what they want to net out of the sale.

    BTW, a tax lien (or judgment) hitting three days before closing can screw up any sale, not just a short sale. Just because a listing is not a short sale that doesn’t mean the seller doesn’t have financial issues.

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  104. 104
    David Losh says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 1

    There is no requirement to sell a Short Sale at any price. Ardell covered that also. It’s a gamble.

    Ardell also speculated out loud about why Short Sales are selling at a higher price than REOs. That is because banks think they have gone to heaven with all the high price offers that they are getting with Short Sales. Some agents actually bid up Short Sales.

    All of this is under what I called distressed property sales. There are ways to work those.

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  105. 105
    David Losh says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 3

    That’s not helpful or relevant.

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  106. 106

    By David Losh @ 2:

    My opinion has been that the short sale classes, that gave thousands of agents the illusion of knowledge was far worse than what the Hecklesons were doing. We still have thousands of agents out there mucking up the process.

    It’s just an opinion, but what I know is this exchange has demonstrated that Kary has a view point far removed the actual Short Sale process, and it may even be the most popular view among Real Estate agents..

    Unfortunately many of those short sale classes taught the method which is resulting in suspended licenses and fines. It’s part of my “Beware the Clockhour Course” theme. A lot of what you are taught at clockhour courses is really, really bad advice.

    As to you last point, please explain to me how making scheduled pre-arranged price reductions on a property is the right thing to do, when you’re dealing with a type of sale least likely to get an offer. On a short sale the biggest problem isn’t likely price, it’s that it’s a short sale. That three weeks passes without an offer may not be evidence of anything on a short sale, other than the fact that it is a short sale.

    Also, keep in mind that on some short sales, the amount of the deficiency will affect either the willingness of the bank to waive, or the willingness of the seller to proceed if the bank doesn’t waive the deficiency. So lowering the price can on some short sales (depending on the lender and type of loan) affect the interests of the listing agent’s clients.

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  107. 107
    David Losh says:

    RE: ARDELL @ 99

    I’ve got to go back to work. Trying to explain, again, is feeding the fire here.

    As you have also pointed out on numerous occasions is these comments are read by the public.

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  108. 108

    By David Losh @ 4:

    There is no requirement to sell a Short Sale at any price. Ardell covered that also. It’s a gamble.

    You’re missing the point. Yes with a short sale there is no requirement to sell, because you’ve disclosed that it is a short sale. That doesn’t mean, however, that you can list a property at a price that you have no reasonable expectation that a bank would accept the offer. Again I’ll use a waterfront short sale on Hunt’s Point listed at $125,000.

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  109. 109
    David Losh says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 6

    Because first you have to have an offer. It’s a part of the process.

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  110. 110

    By David Losh @ 5:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 3

    That’s not helpful or relevant.

    You’re the one who thinks Ardell understands the process. She doesn’t, as demonstrated by the fact that she thinks accruing interest and legal fees are going to affect their decision.

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  111. 111
    David Losh says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 8

    Kary, it can be listed for $1. The list price is irrelevant.

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  112. 112
    ARDELL says:

    David said: “The holder of the Note may have called the Loss Mitigator that morning to say, “get rid of it.”

    Yes and no on that one. Usually there is no “it” on the other side above the level of the person with their nose in the file. The directives are based on bulk result for a given reporting period. They are more interested in their monthly, quarterly and annual numbers and how they will appear in their public reporting.

    So they can go lower on one because they went higher on another. Kary’s thinking they they should always want more on every “it” does not hold true. If their bogey for the month was to get $.60 on the dollar and they are at day 28 running at $.65 on the dollar, they can take less. If they are running at $.56 on the dollar, they will play harder to meet their monthly goal of $.60. They are looking at a bulk vs an individual result.

    The directive may be “Everyone has to get more than $.65 on the dollar for the next three days so we can meet our monthly goal of $.60!” Or it may be…”Close out as many as you can because we are well in excess of our monthly goal at $.60. Cram them in and try to get as close to $.60 as you can, but let’s close more out this month as we have more room to play in meeting our monthly goal.”

    The quarterly reporting periods (which may be different for different banks depending on their fiscal year) are more important than their monthly goals. The Annual Report numbers are even more important than monthly or quarterly goals. If they have met their objective for the Annual Report…they may stall everything so as not to mess up those numbers. Sometimes you want things to fall in the next year on purpose…or the next month…or the next quarter.

    There is no “it” in the room…except their “it”…not Kary’s “it”. They are not the seller of real estate focusing on this transaction…except for the one guy with his nose in the file. The directives to the file guys come from a higher place that is all about the bank’s goal…and not this individual transaction. They may be saying no today…or not answering at all…because their “it” directs that, and you can jump up and scream and wave your hands and call them idiots all you want. They in fact are NOT idiots when they are appearing to do “an idiot thing” on YOUR transaction. YOUR transaction is simply NOT what they need to be smart about today, conforming to your idea of smart, Kary.

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  113. 113
    David Losh says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 10

    It’s a balance sheet. They look at the balance sheet.

    I’m really trying to be nice.

    Short Sales have always been an option, the same as ARMS, and other exotic financing. Just because you don’t see it, or haven’t done a lot of them doesn’t mean rehashing it will be at all helpful.

    I’ve done a lot of Short Sales over my career. If I wanted I could be sitting at my desk with two hundred short sale files, all legitimate. Ardell has given a lot of good information here in a long rambling manner, but each situation is unique.

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  114. 114
    David Losh says:

    RE: ARDELL @ 12

    Again, correct, but not helpful.

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  115. 115
    ARDELL says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 10

    Kary…real life example…not my opinion. Not something I read somewhere. REAL transaction that I was involved in as the agent for the buyer. Not whisper down the lane. Not what “should” happen, but what DID happen. You do leave room for reality in your “opinion”, yes?

    Lienholder approved short sale. The 1st was on an automatic process of starting the foreclosure process on day X. On Day X plus 1 we get a message from escrow that Lienholder one’s payoff (who is being paid in full and not negotiated as a short) has increased by the legal fees of starting the foreclosure process in the middle of escrow.

    There is STILL enough money on the table to pay off the 1st, so the 2nd lienholder has to eat the cost of the new expense of legal fees of the 1st. OR you have to start from square one and treat the 1st as short OR the buyer has to agree to increase the price by the amount of this new expense. REAL example, Kary.

    The buyer was confused as he thought everyone agreed to a contract and the Sale Price. I wrote this for him so he would understand what just happened:

    http://raincityguide.com/2007/12/13/should-you-buy-a-short-sale-property/

    In the comments on THAT post…Kary disagreed with me. Surprise! LOL!

    Who cares…Kary wasn’t in that game…Kary’s opinion and disagreement didn’t matter. The sale closed, regardless of whether Kary agreed with the facts at hand or not.

    Kary…you have made a career out of disagreeing with me while I have made a career of being successful for my clients for 21 years. When are you going to give it up?

    What you think “should” happen has no relevance to the reality of any given situation. You just want to tell everyone who is in there working it that they are wrong…especially me. Truth is…I will ALWAYS be more right than you want to admit…that will never change, Kary. Even when the dust settles, the buyer doesn’t pay a dime more for the property, the 2nd has to take less because of the increased legal fees of the 1st, as in that REAL example in that link…you want to say I am “wrong”. Hahahaha! That lands me back at “stuff a sock in it”.

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  116. 116
    ARDELL says:

    RE: David Losh @ 13

    “Ardell has given a lot of good information here in a long rambling manner, but each situation is unique.”

    Absolutely! Each and every situation is unique and you have to be ready for anything and it’s not over until the day after closing.

    I’m heading off to Wenatchee for a day off tomorrow to visit a dear friend whose husband passed away recently. I don’t take a day off often…so I’m done with this.

    As you said, David, Kary will always come back with the same opinion no matter what I say. His comments here are no different than those on that post in the link from 2007. It’s a waste of time and I’m outta here… :)

    I continued a bit further at your request, because I respect your opinion and enjoy peer discussions with you. Talking with Kary is never a “peer” discussion…because he always plays the “he is right because he is an attorney vs an agent”. Some day he’ll have to decide what he is…and what he isn’t. An experienced agent who understands the short sale process will not likely ever make it to the top of his agenda. He’ll just beat up on anyone who is actually doing them well, and woohoo when someone gets a $20,000 fine. That’s who he is…that is not going to change.

    He will call me “wrong” about something in his dying breath. It appears to be something he likes to do and that brings him joy. I’m glad I could “be there for him”. :)

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  117. 117

    By David Losh @ 11:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 8

    Kary, it can be listed for $1. The list price is irrelevant.

    David, you’re now reached the point where you know as little about legal issues as Ardell. That’s hard to do, but you’ve managed it.

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  118. 118

    RE: ARDELL @ 12 – Ardell, I have one question for you. How many banks have you worked for in the past 4 years processing short sales?

    Seriously, you think they work on a bulk percentage?

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  119. 119

    RE: ARDELL @ 16 – Ardell, I’m not right because I’m an attorney. I’m right because the DOL, NWMLS and an ALJ agree with me.

    Your ability to understand legal issues is worse than pathetic. You are to legal issues as Jim Cramer is to stock picks, except that he is right sometimes. You are right almost never. You are a train wreck waiting to happen. Seriously, you really need to quit expressing legal opinions because you don’t have the slightest clue what you are talking about.

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  120. 120
    ARDELL says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 119

    Haha
    on my way to Wenatchee
    Who was in San Francisco on a legal panel with Russ Cofano, one of the mainstay attorneys of Wa Real Estate, answering legal questions to hundreds of people in the audience?

    You? Uh…no…it was ME! LOL!

    Who did the random Attorney call when HIS OWN transaction recorded in his name…but his mortgage didn’t fund, freaking out about what to do?

    You? Another attorney? Uh…no…it was ME! LOL

    What happened when the buyer’s attorney didn’t show up at closing because he said there was no way in he’ll It could close it with 6 lien holders not in agreement yet? I closed it.

    If real estate were about things lawyers are good at, real estate agents wouldn’t be doing it.

    Great lawyers (and I know many…who think I’m brilliant at those lawyer thingies) don’t become real estate agents.

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  121. 121
    Pegasus says:

    RE: ARDELL @ 120 – Ouch!

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  122. 122

    RE: ARDELL @ 20 – Just like there are bad real estate agents, there are bad attorneys. You apparently know some. But really, you expect me to believe that an attorney that called you over his mortgage not showing up was a “real estate attorney?” Seriously? Give me a break. Not all attorneys are real estate attorneys.

    BTW, attorneys call me too, only difference is when they call me they are talking to someone who actually knows what they are talking about.

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  123. 123
    David Losh says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 117

    Kary, just quit. How is being listed for $1 a legal issue?

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  124. 124

    By David Losh @ 23:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 117

    Kary, just quit. How is being listed for $1 a legal issue?

    You’re offering something for sale. Did you really take the real estate licensing course and not learn about offer, acceptance, contracts, etc.?

    You really are falling to Ardell’s level.

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  125. 125
    David Losh says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 124

    You were talking about short sales. Using your logic a short sale could only be listed for the amount owed, plus back payments, plus costs, plus whatever might be due on closing.

    Is that the case?

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  126. 126

    By David Losh @ 125:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 124

    You were talking about short sales. Using your logic a short sale could only be listed for the amount owed, plus back payments, plus costs, plus whatever might be due on closing.

    Is that the case?

    I’ve not said anything like that. What I’ve said is that you cannot set a price and then have an automatic schedule of price reductions into the future, without at least checking to see in the future if those price reductions are reasonable. And by reasonable I mean a number that the bank(s) involved are at least somewhat likely to accept. Just being wrong on that last part won’t get you in trouble, IMHO, unless you’re wrong with extreme frequency. Not checking at all probably will get you in trouble, IMHO.

    So, for example, you cannot have a listing with the following pre-set schedule:

    8/15/11 list at $350,000
    9/05/11 reduce price to $325,000
    9/30/11 reduce price to $300,000
    10/20/11 reduce price to $275,000
    11/5/11 reduce price to $250,000
    11/25/11 reduce price to $225,000
    12/15/11 reduce price to $200,000

    That is what some agents were taught to do in clock hour courses, and that’s what some agents are getting in trouble for. Again, I don’t know that was the fact pattern for the recent fine, and those are not numbers I pulled from the Hellickson case (but the actual numbers are available in the link to the opinion available in my blog).

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  127. 127
    David Losh says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 126

    That’s your IMHO. Your opinion has nothing to do with short sales.

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  128. 128

    By David Losh @ 27:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 126

    That’s your IMHO. Your opinion has nothing to do with short sales.

    Realize David that I have actually spoken to one of the AGs who was handling the case against the Hellicksons. That discussion, and other research lead to this piece:

    http://www.trulia.com/blog/kary_l_krismer/2010/10/risky_agent_behavior–automatic_price_reductions

    After I wrote that piece the Administrative Law Judge came down with a decision which I have also read and understand. That decision can be found in the “opinion” link of this blog piece:

    http://www.trulia.com/blog/kary_l_krismer/2011/05/yes_agents_can_lose_their_license_by_pricing_a_short_sale_too_low

    My opinion is based on an understanding of the legal issues involved, and specifically about pricing issues involving short sales. I suggest you read the opinion of the Administrative Law Judge, specifically pages 15-18 and 40-43, and then come back and tell me my opinion has nothing to do with short sales.

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  129. 129

    RE: David Losh @ 27 – While my longer response is awaiting moderation, read the “opinion” link of this piece, particularly pages 15-18 and 40-43. My opinion is only about short sales.

    http://www.trulia.com/blog/kary_l_krismer/2011/05/yes_agents_can_lose_their_license_by_pricing_a_short_sale_too_low

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  130. 130
    Kilen says:

    Hmm. I have to admit that Kary’s explanations tend to make the most sense to me. Listing a house for a value that the real estate agent -knows- will not be accepted by the bank simply wastes everyone’s time, and I’m not surprised that there are rules against it. (of course, proving that “knows” point is unlikely…)

    (admittedly, I am no expert in the area of real estate transactions; I’m just judging the arguments based on how logical they seem.)

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  131. 131

    RE: Kilen @ 130 – Thank you. And everyone includes the bank, per the ALJ decision.

    Then there are the totally illogical arguments, like how a bank that takes 3 months to review a short sale offer cares about the accrued interest. I loved that one. :-D

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  132. 132
    David Losh says:

    RE: Kilen @ 129

    Kary has missed the point about Short Sales completely. I know what he says many times seems logical.

    Real Estate is a two way street. The agent making the offer should know how the process works. The person marketing the Short Sale is marketing.

    Kary has completely missed these points repeatedly, even though he has said the same thing.

    Kary has no idea what he is debating, his are just random statements.

    I say this a lot, but people need to be very careful about what they think they are learning on the internet. Kary has only muddied the water on this topic.

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  133. 133

    By David Losh @ 132:

    RE: Kilen @ 129

    Kary has missed the point about Short Sales completely. I know what he says many times seems logical. .

    Again David, I’m only talking about short sales. If an agent prices a $275,000 property at $225,000, the only person who can complain is the seller.

    Did you read the opinion? You really need to do so.

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  134. 134
    David Losh says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 28

    Yours is only an opinion. The Hellicksons, as well as Kendra Todd, and all the agents who think Real Estate is all a slam dunk, get the deal, kind of business need to be reviewed.

    In your process here you are demonstrating why agents should be more closely monitored.

    I’ll wait for what ever is coming out of moderation, but clearly you have shown a lack of understanding about Real Estate as a business, or even a sales position.

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  135. 135
    David Losh says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 32

    I have read your Trulia stuff.

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  136. 136
    ARDELL says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 130

    Kary,

    AS IF there is ONLY ONE LIENHOLDER. I’m doing one now with FOUR! The interest on the first impacts the 4th only when the 1st isn’t short.

    You really have just not done enough if these.

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  137. 137
    ARDELL says:

    RE: Kilen @ 29

    That is why buyers and sellers always need someone who understands short sales. Because what makes sense to most everyone, including Kary, is just not how they work.

    Ever see a Zillow Make Me Move price? If you ask all the lien holders up front, they will all bid high like that…and the answer will not garner an offer. No offer…no closing. Some will tell you 10x what they will actually take. Usually 2nd & 3rd lien holders, hoping you’re dumb enough to pay them that.

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  138. 138
    Kilen says:

    Ok, I read up a bit on this, and I still think that Kary is correct.

    The judge’s ruling can be found at:
    http://cache.inman.com/files/stories/Hellickson_Final_Order_Aug_5_2011.pdf

    The pertinent section is 2.3, I’ll post it here:
    2.3 Whether the Respondent engaged in a pattern and practice of listing homes at artificially reduced prices, which were not designed to accurately reflect what the owner of the home was willing to accept, in order to generate multiple low-ball offers. Such conduct allegedly included dishonest advertising regarding the price of homes the Respondents listed for sale and engagement in automatically reducing the list price of homes the Respondents listed, which caused list prices to regularly fall below what the lender was willing to accept to release the lien on the home. If so, did such conduct violate any of the following: RCW 18.85.230(1), (2), (3), and (23), RCW 18.86.030(1)(a), (b), and (d), and RCW 18.235.130(1), (3), (4), and (11)? This charge is AFFIRMED, however, in violation only of RCW 18.85.230(2), (3), and (23), RCW 18.86.030(1)(a) and (b), and RCW 18.235.130(1), (3), (4) and (11). I do not find the charges of violation of RCW 18.86.030(1)(d) to be proven.

    Pricing below what the seller or lender was willing to accept in order to generate low-ball offers — it seems clear-cut to me. I’m not going to go to the effort of reading the exact wording on the RCW statutes, but I do trust them to be accurate.

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  139. 139
    David Losh says:

    RE: Kilen @ 137

    And what you are researching is completely irrelevant to short sales.

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  140. 140

    When a buyer sees a home priced at a certain amount, he or she should have the reasonable expectation that the listing price is the price that either a seller or a lien holder will accept.
    In a non short sale situation, pricing a house low can be a great strategy, as higher offers may emerge. But if no other offers emerge other than the list price, the seller should be prepared to accept it.
    In a short sale situation, the lender does not let the seller or their agent know what they will accept. A good agent will figure out both the current market value and what the house would likely sell for at the foreclosure auction. While they won’t know for sure what the lender would accept, a good agent will have some idea and price it at or above that number.
    So why would an agent price a short sale home at a price far below what a lender will accept? Sometimes it’s an incompetent agent.
    And sometimes, maybe because the lender wants to see offers before they decide on what they accept? So if a house that on paper is worth 400,000 is only getting 200,000 dollar offers, the bank will change their tune and accept something lower?
    In any case, it seems wrong from a homebuyer’s perspective. When you go to a store and see a shirt priced at twenty dollars, you should be able to buy it for twenty dollars. It’s manipulative and wrong to give homebuyers the impression that a home can be purchased for a certain amount when there’s no chance that it could.
    I’m no legal expert,

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  141. 141

    By David Losh @ 39:

    RE: Kilen @ 137

    And what you are researching is completely irrelevant to short sales.

    David, read the opinion before you continue to spout nonsense which isn’t true. It’s only about short sales. There’s another section about unauthorized price changes, and those could be normal sales, but the pages I cited you to are about short sales.

    Again, you’re becoming more and more like Ardell, just being stubborn and spouting a bunch of nonsense.

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  142. 142

    RE: Ira Sacharoff @ 140 – The other reason agents do it is that’s what they were taught in a clock hour course. You can tell agents almost anything in a clock hour course and some of them will believe it.

    Some of the things will get you fined, like the suggestion I heard to claim listings on Zillow. Some of the things will get you sued, like the 1031 class where the teacher was claiming that it wouldn’t affect the buyer’s basis going forward, or to have a variable rate commission as a sales pitch to sellers. DOL is supposed to monitor what is taught at clock hour courses, but unfortunately they can’t monitor what is said.

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  143. 143
    David Losh says:

    RE: Ira Sacharoff @ 139

    That’s not how short sales work.

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  144. 144
    David Losh says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 40

    That’s a 73 page report that has to do with a pattern of behaviour by a set of individuals.

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  145. 145
    David Losh says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 41

    You’re throwing out more circumstances that should have a point, but they don’t.

    The Hellicksons are just three poeple out of thousands of real estate agents who knew nothing more about short sales than what they heard some place. Brokerages thought short sales would be a good source of commission sales.

    Short Sales have policy, and procedure set up by Loss Mitigation departments. Those policies have guide lines, but you want them to have rules.

    There are no rules in Real Estate. It’s all negotiable.

    You took one part of a 73 page document and tried to make some obscure point about Real Estate pricing concerning short sales.

    You clouded the issue, engaged in insults, and never came up with a working knowledge of the Short Sale process.

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  146. 146

    By David Losh @ 44:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 40

    That’s a 73 page report that has to do with a pattern of behaviour by a set of individuals.

    Yes, but a portion of that report deal with how they allegedly dealt with short sales, and the legal conclusions of the ALJ regarding those alleged facts, and the punishment handed out because of those alleged facts. To say it has nothing to do with short sales is naive at best.

    More importantly, that report is highly relevant to what I’ve been talking about this entire time–pricing short sales at a price where the agent either knows the bank won’t approve the sale, or under circumstances where they have not done their due diligence.

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  147. 147

    By David Losh @ 45:

    Short Sales have policy, and procedure set up by Loss Mitigation departments. Those policies have guide lines, but you want them to have rules..

    Again, I’ve said no such thing here. In the past I’ve said that they should process the offers with less delay, but that’s an entirely different problem with short sales. At no time here have I been critical of how a bank comes up with the price they will accept (other than perhaps saying something you wrote sounded like something I would write).

    But you raise a good point. Short sales are tainted by the fact that some banks take 3 or more months to review an offer. That fact means fewer people are interested in short sales. Short sales are also tainted by agents pricing them too low without any regard to what the bank is likely to accept. That fact also means fewer people are interested in short sales. Thus the activity I complain of harms not only the parties to the transaction (buyers, buyers’ agent, seller, bank), but it also harms all the other sellers out there who might need to do a short sale. And that probably explains why it was the DOL going after Hellicksons, and not the NWMLS.

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  148. 148

    By David Losh @ 45:

    There are no rules in Real Estate. It’s all negotiable.

    Again this is just nonsense. As a broker you operate under the rules set by statute and the Washington Administrative Code. As a member of the NWMLS you operate under the rules set by the NWMLS, one of which is that you will comply with Washington law.

    Again, I have to ask how did you take the licensing course and get a license without learning these things?

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  149. 149

    By ARDELL @ 36:

    AS IF there is ONLY ONE LIENHOLDER. I’m doing one now with FOUR! The interest on the first impacts the 4th only when the 1st isn’t short.

    You are correct that if you are dealing with a first that is not short, that can complicate the process. I recently had an update to a payoff on a non-short sale take over 4 months. It took so long because although the sale was not short, no payments had been made for months, which threw it into a different department. If you had that problem on a short sale, that could affect things because the second would specify how much money they would need to receive, and how much they could get would be reduced the longer all the shorts took to make a decision.

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  150. 150

    By ARDELL @ 36:

    You really have just not done enough if these.

    Quit pretending your some sort of short sale expert.

    I’ll ask you the same question you asked me earlier. How many short sales have you done in the past tow years? And maybe I’ll even broaden that out. How many short sales has your current firm, and those currently at your firm done in the past two years?

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  151. 151

    By David Losh @ 43:

    That’s not how short sales work.

    I might as well ask you the same question. How many short sales have you done in the past two years?

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  152. 152
    Ray Pepper says:

    golly! David, Kary, Ardell……………What the heck?????…I didn’t read all this but it appears very obvious you all need some violent love, a sale, or a great meal at Mediterranean Kitchen in Bellevue.

    Now go attain one of these prizes!

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  153. 153
    David Losh says:

    RE: Ray Pepper @ 151

    As you can see one reader bought into the idea Kary has information about dealing with short sales. That’s the problem.

    Short sales are a bank policy for hardship cases. Right now there are thousands, or millions of those. The Loss Mitigation departments deal with the shorts. Those departments function at a high capacity.

    The larger problem is agents, like Kary, or the Hellicksons, who get involved with short sales. The buyers and sellers rely on this information to make decisions.

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  154. 154
    David Losh says:

    Kary, you have no idea what you are talking about. The NWMLS just had a notice that buyer’s agents can’t contact the lender about a short sale file.

    They have to issue these warnings because idiot Real Estate agents don’t know what they are doing or what is going on.

    Ardell has explained the short sale process to you, in her way, it’s a little sketchy in my opinion, but she has presented you with solid information.

    You came back with the Hellicksons? I don’t know why, but that’s your focus.

    Real Estate is a negotiation. You are demonstrating an inability in that area.

    People should be very wary about what they think they are learning on the internet about Real Estate.

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  155. 155

    RE: David Losh @ 153 – Yes, it’s really a problem that I’m spreading the news that agents can lose their license or be fined if they price short sales in a deceptive manner.

    Oh, wait, like Ardell you think rules don’t apply to you. I forgot.

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  156. 156

    By David Losh @ 54:

    Kary, you have no idea what you are talking about. The NWMLS just had a notice that buyer’s agents can’t contact the lender about a short sale file.

    They have to issue these warnings because idiot Real Estate agents don’t know what they are doing or what is going on. .

    First, I’m well aware of the new rule and had actually contacted the NWMLS about it several weeks ago. IMHO it’s too broad because it doesn’t just apply to short sales. Last month I had to contact a seller’s creditor about a mis-application of a payment on their water bill. My client was concerned due to the possible lien. If that rule had been in place then I would have needed written permission to do that. In that particular case I was dealing with a very good REO agent on the other end. If it had been a bad REO agent, getting written permission might have been very difficult.

    Second, did it ever occur to you that Ardell might be one of those idiot real estate agents that caused this rule to be implemented? She’s talking a lot here about what she does with short sales. I guess we’ll just need to wait for her answer on her short sale experience, like we’re waiting for your answer.

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  157. 157
    David Losh says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 155

    You don’t know how much you don’t know.

    Hellicksons are a small foot note in the Real Estate industry.

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  158. 158
    David Losh says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 56

    When I was first told I needed to blog for my business I was horrified at what Ardell wrote. I asked several times how she could keep a license.

    Now that I’m more familiar with the Geek of the Week world of internet Real Estate business models I realize Ardell is one of the very few who has any experience in Real Estate.

    In the same twitter digest there is something about Glenn Kelman waiting for the New York Times to call him about an opinion. What a joke, except it’s so sadly true.

    Your comment, this comment, illustrates how little you know about Real Estate. The NWMLS and DOL are simply trying to catch up with an industry that has so many new entries that thought Real Estate was a good idea, at the time.

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  159. 159

    By David Losh @ 157:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 155

    You don’t know how much you don’t know.

    Hellicksons are a small foot note in the Real Estate industry.

    I know footnote is one word! ;-)

    I’m not saying that the Hellickson’s are important. The parties involved in individual decisions seldom are important. It’s what we learn from those decisions, and what you should have learned is the DOL considers pricing short sales too low a violation of Washington State licensing law. And Rule 10(h) of the NWMLS rules require agents to comply with all applicable law.

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  160. 160

    By Ray Pepper @ 152:

    “golly”! David, Kary, Ardell……………What the heck?????…I didn’t read all this but it appears very obvious you all need some violent love, a sale, or a great meal at Mediterranean Kitchen in Bellevue.

    Now go attain one of these prizes!

    Wait a minute, Ray. You may have done more short sales than anybody else around here, and all you can say is ” go get laid”?

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  161. 161

    By Ira Sacharoff @ 160:

    Wait a minute, Ray. You may have done more short sales than anybody else around here, and all you can say is ” go get laid”?

    Wait, Ira. Some people here (basically everyone but me) have not disclosed how few short sales they’ve done. You’ll give away the fact that some here are only impersonating as being experts in short sales.

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  162. 162
  163. 163
    Ray Pepper says:

    RE: Ira Sacharoff @ 160

    I’m on vacation two more weeks…I barely had enough energy to post that from down here in Cal.

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  164. 164

    RE: david losh @ 62 – I guess asking people what their short sale experience has been in the past two years really shuts them up. No David, no Ardell.

    Just to remind people, a few months ago Ardell was here touting her commission scheme, wherein if she is both the listing agent and selling agent, there’s a discount. Maybe she should refresh people’s recollection again on how often that has occurred in the past two years.

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  165. 165
    david losh says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 164

    You’ve gone way beyond what you don’t know about Real Estate. Short sale messes are what I look at the most.

    You should get with your broker.

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  166. 166
    ARDELL says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 164

    1) I’m in Wenatchee, as noted before, returning late today.
    2) we’ve covered this before and I have clearly done more as an agent in the transaction in my career and recently than you, but I don’t think that makes me better at closing them. I would say what has made me successful at closing all that I’ve come across is my understanding of the process, but I’m working on one right now and don’t want to jinx it. :)

    I’ll try to catch up on your queries here when I return to Seattle late today.But we’ve been through this many times before, and you don’t seem to retain anything other than targeting what you believe I am “wrong” about. I’ve closed all ive attempted, so I must be doing something right.

    I do think the very nature of short sales do break the mold and even some mls rules, most notably Rule 6. But short of prohibiting their appearance as listings in the mls, there is no way to make them and the people doing them conform to standards imposed on non-short sale transactions.

    I’m doing one right now, from Wenatchee, on my iPad. This one truly breaks the mold for many reasons. We’re in the final stretch in month 8, hopefully the final stretch.

    More when I get back in town on a regular computer vs my iPad.

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  167. 167

    By david losh @ 165:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 164

    You’ve gone way beyond what you don’t know about Real Estate. Short sale messes are what I look at the most.

    You should get with your broker.

    David, give it up. Why don’t you admit to your (probable lack of) short sale experience?

    You’re the one claiming I don’t know what I’m talking about, but you’re bringing nothing to the table. I have brought the ALJ’s opinion to the table, which clearly indicates I know what I’m talking about.

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  168. 168

    RE: ARDELL @ 66 – I’m sorry, but did I somehow miss your stating your (probable lack of) short sale experience in the past two years in that post?

    Come on people. You are claiming that you’re short sale experts. Disclose your recent experience.

    (BTW, for the consumers out there, the agents here will have access to this information. I’m just asking Ardell and Dave to state their experience for the benefit of others because they have been trying to claim how well they understand the process. Their reluctance to publicly disclose this information should tell you something.)

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  169. 169
    ARDELL says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 168

    Not sure quite how to respond to your answer, Kary, as information we access via the mls is proprietary. I don’t see any, ever, via you lag number either as a listing or a buyer controlled sale, which does not match your response that you have done one. But that was before I left town on Tuesday. These systems are not infallible.

    Pretty much every sale I’ve done, here in WA versus in my 21 years in real estate, is on my blog noting whether I represented the buyer or the seller and a link to each property. I am limited by mobile devices on my trip so I can’t link over for you. But everything is public on my transactions as to what.

    I’ll try to flip back and forth on the iPad from the list on my blog. Hmmm can’t do that without losing this comment. From memory the one in Carnation was fairly easy because the seller had moved far away and there was one local lender. But there were other unrelated liens to clear outside of the “true lien holders”. Can’t disclose the details of course, that is why it is better to speak in generalities. One you disclose which property, the details of each are obviously confidential. Of the two in Kirkland, one managed a few thousand for the seller to move out, but we did have a mess to deal with given the trash collection was stopped for weeks before sue to non-payment of water bill. The water was also turned off and the owner was still living in it, which made cleaning and flushing toilets difficult for the owner and his dog. The one in Bellevue had utilities shut off…the earlier one in Bellevue was harder, but Bellevue has since allowed for water to be turned on for inspections, temporarily for a small fee, which makes it a it easier. I did cancel one on Kirkland on or near 70th because a better one came on market, and we shifted over and closed on that one instead. Avoided disclosure of short on a few by coming up with funds needed…my host here in Wenatchee just appeared …gotta go…answering on iPad is cumbersome…

    Maybe you can answer me privately as to any you did as an agent, as none seem to appear in a search.

    The hardest part with short sales can be beyond the 1st and 2nd to back condo fees, tax liens and other judgments. Had one with an open lawsuit from the neighbor over the well… There is no one system or procedure to follow to close these. Following a strict and logical procedure would often result in sale fail. You just have to work them through, logical or not.

    Answering on an iPad has its limitations…will be back in Seattle this evening.

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  170. 170
    ARDELL says:

    Apologies for typos above…the iPad is not good for making long comments. Sorry, Kary. Not avoiding your questions…just away for another 10 hours or so. Doing the best I can..but I’m on a little mini- vacation in the foothills in Wenatchee.

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  171. 171

    By ARDELL @ 169:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 168 -Not sure quite how to respond to your answer, Kary, as information we access via the mls is proprietary. I don’t see any, ever, via you lag number either as a listing or a buyer controlled sale, which does not match your response that you have done one.

    You also need to search my wife’s lag number, because on a buyer property only hers might show up, and you should find one of those within the past two years. On our most recent short sale listing I was not her co-listing agent (another agent in our office was), because the client contact was hers. That one fell apart after bank approval, on the inspection. Then there’s an older one which is on my name which might now be outside the two years, but it was also a bankruptcy listing but processed as a short sale (terrible idea I had). It did close, but you won’t find that as a short sale field because it was a sale free and clear, and thus only a bankruptcy sale (despite being processed as a short sale).

    That is why I extended the question for you to your firm, because I know you have a small firm and may be involved with transactions of other agents in your firm.

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  172. 172

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 171 – BTW, I should add that I don’t really consider representing a buyer on a short sale to be much in the way of experience, especially now with the new restrictions. The main thing a buyer’s agent does, IMHO, is investigate the listing agent and determine who the creditors are, both to avoid stepping into a mess.

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  173. 173

    […] 172 comments, 08/13: Weekly Twitter Digest (Link Roundup) for 2011-08-13 […]

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