Global Economic November Thread

Talk about the global and national economy to your heart’s content, as much as it takes to get it out of your system so the rest of the site can stick to real estate and housing.

For previous economic open threads, click here.

As of 09/07/2010, global economic comments that do not directly relate to Seattle-area real estate go only in threads designated for this specific subject.


About The Tim

Tim Ellis is the founder of Seattle Bubble. His background in engineering and computer / internet technology, a fondness of data-based analysis of problems, and an addiction to spreadsheets all influence his perspective on the Seattle-area real estate market.

111 comments:

  1. 1
    Scotsman says:

    “When will the bond bubble end? It will end when the people and governments of the world tire of giving their pound of flesh to creditors”

    http://azizonomics.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/debtsincekeynes.png?w=368&h=222

    http://azizonomics.com/2011/11/01/the-biggest-bubble-in-history/

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  2. 2
    Haybaler says:

    “If consumers don’t earn, they can’t spend, and aggregate demand goes down. Substituting easy credit for better wages is not a recipe for economic growth. A nation can (should) only consume in proportion to what it produces. Borrowing money to import the fruits of other countries’ labour is not economic growth. Neither is selling off capital assets to be able to import consumables”-Harry

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  3. 3

    Our economic issues are all in the past, as evidenced by the fact that the House can spend time on issues like this: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45128903/ns/politics/#.TrFTfvSdVmM

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  4. 4
    David Losh says:

    “If you think about it from the point of view of a Cuban family, it converts their house from a place to live into a source of wealth or a source of collateral. It’s an asset that can now be made liquid.”

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  5. 5
    ChrisM says:

    A fun story:
    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/11/02/1032624/-He-has-a-right-to-speak,-said-the-cop-to-the-banker?via=siderec

    Five years ago I would never have imagined I’d ever agree with anything on DailyKos…

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  6. 6
    Scotsman says:

    RE: ChrisM @ 5

    Ditto.

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  7. 7

    By Kary L. Krismer @ 3:

    Our economic issues are all in the past, as evidenced by the fact that the House can spend time on issues like this: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45128903/ns/politics/#.TrFTfvSdVmM

    President Obama and I apparently think alike, because he also commented on this waste of time by the House.

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  8. 8
    Macro Investor says:

    By Kary L. Krismer @ 3:

    Our economic issues are all in the past, as evidenced by the fact that the House can spend time on issues like this: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45128903/ns/politics/#.TrFTfvSdVmM

    This is God calling. Leave me out of your petty politics and choosing sides in a sports match.

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  9. 9
    Kary L. Krismer says:

    RE: Macro Investor @ 8 – Jon Stewart also had fun with that story.

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  10. 10
    David Losh says:

    ATHENS, Greece

    Prime Minister George Papandreou agreed to step down halfway through his four-year term. He and conservative opposition head Antonis Samaras are to meet Monday to discuss who will become prime minister and the makeup of the Cabinet.

    The new unity government’s main task will be to pass the European rescue package, a move considered crucial to shoring up the euro.

    Well it was quite a week end of negotiations for the Greeks. It had thrills, chills, name calling, and yes a resolution before the markets opened. Yeah, crisis averted!

    Does any one else see the pattern with Mubarack gone, Kaddafy gone, Prime Minister George Papandreou gone, Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi in negotiations to hold together a governing coalition, and the Tea Party ready to get rid of Obama?

    It’s all debt, and tyrants, but the people at the top, say Germany have a whole set of concerns that differ from the rest of Europe: http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/a4cf7412-0635-11e1-a079-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1czdqWUqH

    Germany is cutting taxes, and Greece needs to raise taxes.

    Let me say one time that this all looks like a New World Order Senior Bush was advocating.

    In the middle of Bush’s speech he claimed ours would be a rule of law not the the rule of the jungle.

    Well, geez, It appears to me that the rule of the jungle is coming out swinging. For all the political wrangling it seems to me that the financial markets are getting more, and more attention from the unwashed masses.

    As Kary has pointed out repeatedly in discussions here, everything that caused a global collapse is according to the rule of law. Obama called for more regulation, and the financial markets have paid for a campaign against him. Let’s forget Obama and just concentrate on the Prime Minister of Greece, who was duly elected. He called for a referendum, a vote by the people about a debt package they need to pay for, and he’s gone. He’s hauled in front of European leaders, and in a matter of days, he’s gone.

    When did banking, and financial markets get in charge of the world? Who elected them?

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  11. 11
    David Losh says:

    ROME — Pressure mounted on Premier Silvio Berlusconi to resign so a new government could pass the economic reforms Italy needs to avoid financial disaster, as the country’s borrowing rates spiked Monday and talk of early elections intensified.

    How is changing government in order to force economic agendas a good thing for anybody?

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  12. 12

    RE: David Losh @ 11RE: David Losh @ 10 – They’re not talking about changing government as say recently occurred in Egypt, where it’s a massive change of structure. What’s being referred to is more like what happens in this country every two years when the members of the House are elected, or every four years where the House, President and 1/3rd of the Senate are up for election.

    As to the Greek referendum, the deal was negotiated and then Greece tried to go back on it by throwing the referendum up as a roadblock. It was not the type of deal that would typically go to a referendum, and probably had more to do with internal Greek politics than anything else. Personally I would have liked to see the referendum go through, have the agreement not pass and then watch Greece to see what would happen.

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  13. 13
    Haybaler says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 12
    “Personally I would have liked to see the referendum go through, have the agreement not pass and then watch Greece to see what would happen.” Scary thought.

    I would like to have seen them hold a Greek referendum and APROVE the measure by popular vote.

    This imposed austerity seems analogous to the taxation without representation that sparked our own War of Independence.

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  14. 14

    By Haybaler @ 13:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 12
    “Personally I would have liked to see the referendum go through, have the agreement not pass and then watch Greece to see what would happen.” Scary thought.

    Yes, but perhaps it would shut up those who think that if government does nothing that things will recover more quickly.

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  15. 15

    By Haybaler @ 13:

    This imposed austerity seems analogous to the taxation without representation that sparked our own War of Independence.

    I’m not seeing that. If the Greek government could finance it, they’re free to do whatever they want. But their situation is not such. They have to go begging, hat in hand, to continue to get money to spend.

    Or are you saying the repayment of additional monies will lead to taxation without representation?

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  16. 16
    Blurtman says:

    RE: David Losh @ 10 – “As Kary has pointed out repeatedly in discussions here, everything that caused a global collapse is according to the rule of law.”

    What absoulte nonsense! Neither you nor Kary are experts on financial fraud, so why do you repeat Kary’s unsubstantiated, broken record opinion on financial fraud?

    In the recent past, as a rebuttal to similar nonsense stated by you, I had supplied a link to a long list of very knowledgeable folks (Stiglitz, Black, etc.) who concur that massive financial fraud has been committed and further, that there will be no recovery until it is addressed.

    Please think before you write more babble.

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  17. 17
    David Losh says:

    In the Irish, and Portuguese deals there was just an agreement, that this is what’s best. Ireland a decade or more ago allowed for corporations, and businesses to pay no tax, low tax. Greece is the same, only by a wink, and nod, Italy is totally corrupt, as is France, but France has a tax base.

    This is the European Community exercising control over the periphery who has, until now, enjoyed independence.

    What has happened here is very much like what has happened in Egypt, and Libya. We’re talking about the free wheeling Mediterranean market place. From the water you can transfer massive amounts of wealth.

    The good news is for the United States. We are looking pretty darn good with moderate tax rates, and accountability. We have an economy, where a place like Switzerland has none.

    The wealth flight to this country is very real, in my opinion, and yes, we should tax it.

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  18. 18
    David Losh says:

    RE: Blurtman @ 16

    Ah, the babble continues. You did provide excellent links. My reference is to the speech given by the Senior Bush about the rule of law.

    This is the vision of law he presented. Corruption? sure, Manipulation? absolutely.

    I’m also referring to a discussion I had with a banker on Friday who said the Wall Street Protesters should be targeting Washington D.C. and the politicians. My point was that every regulation that is passed is another opportunity for a loop hole.

    You can have a million laws on the books, but unless the greed is addressed there will never be a resolution.

    So you propose jailing millions of bankers the way we jail African Americans. How’s that working out?

    Sorry, but the “War on Drugs” has to be the best example of failed global policy and how it ends up with headless bodies in the street.

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  19. 19
    Blurtman says:

    RE: David Losh @ 18
    So there are at least two goals to procecuting financial fraud: To restore a sense of justice in this country, and to deter future crimes.

    Jailing prominent criminal bankers will have a palliative effect on the mood and morale in this country. It may restore a sense of equal justice, for example.

    I do not know that there are a million criminal bankers to be jailed. But I do know that slap on the wrist fines, especially when rarely adminstered, will not stop this.

    Fraud is prosecuted when committed by the small enough to fail individal and entity. Laws are upheld all the time for the small enough to fail individal and entity. As there will always be individals and entitites that seek to circumvent the law, should we just abandon the enforcement of all laws?

    With regards to the war on drugs, there is a good argument to be made that the attempted remedy is worse than the behavior that is attempted to be remedied. In the case of financial fraud, I fail to see any hint of such an argument.

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  20. 20

    By Blurtman @ 16:

    RE: David Losh @ 10 – “As Kary has pointed out repeatedly in discussions here, everything that caused a global collapse is according to the rule of law.”

    What absoulte nonsense! Neither you nor Kary are experts on financial fraud, so why do you repeat Kary’s unsubstantiated, broken record opinion on financial fraud?

    Beyond that, I’ve said no such thing. What I have said is that the term fraud is being thrown around loosely by those who have no idea what the term means and can’t explain how what they are describing is fraudulent.

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  21. 21
    David Losh says:

    RE: Blurtman @ 19

    “Jailing prominent criminal bankers will have a palliative effect on the mood and morale in this country. It may restore a sense of equal justice, for example.”

    “there is a good argument to be made that the attempted remedy is worse than the behavior that is attempted to be remedied.”

    My comments were about the New World Order, and the chaos that we have now. You can prosecute to your hearts content, there may even be a couple of convictions. The truth is we are way down the road to a whole new set of financial scams that are making what happened at Lehman Brothers look like charity work.

    Did you see today’s poverty rates?

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  22. 22
    Scotsman says:

    I’ve been reading on the effects of hyper inflation on real estate prices. It turns out the most likely outcome of hyper inflation is falling real estate prices, as shown in both Germany and Argentina. So if you think that’s a likely outcome for our current troubles and are planning to put your money into housing you might want to reconsider. A good summary of ideas here:

    http://www.doctorhousingbubble.com/housing-apocalypse-prediction-of-hyperinflation-real-estate-values-debunking-hyperinflation-argument-deflation/#more-5065

    “When there is severe inflation, real estate prices are either nominally flat or falling, like in the United States during the abovementioned ‘79–‘83 inflationary recession.

    And when there is hyperinflation, real estate prices of all sorts—residential, commercial, industrial—go into a free-fall: Their prices crash and burn, completely and utterly.

    This situation—crazy though it may sound—is exactly what happened in Argentina, in 2001: The Argentine peso went into a hyperinflationary breakdown, the causes of which are irrelevant to the present discussion. But because of this, no bank would lend money to purchase any real estate.

    Thus, real estate prices plunged in Argentina.(

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  23. 23
    Blurtman says:

    Big man, pig man, ha ha, charade you are
    You well heeled big wheel, ha ha, charade you are

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xtaZI7grys&feature=player_embedded

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  24. 24
    Blurtman says:

    RE: David Losh @ 21 – Espousing a New World Order as the invisible hand in creating what is happening might earn you a tinfoil hat award. Who is the New World Order?

    With regards to increasing poverty, that goes hand in hand with a recession/depression, sadly. Lives are being harmed in measurable ways. Children are becoming more disadvantaged and malnourished right here in the good ole USA.

    Even more reason why those responsible for crashing the economy must be brought to justice. They have committed crimes which have harmed innocent lives.

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  25. 25
    David Losh says:

    RE: Scotsman @ 22

    The prices plunge, but you are paying debt with inflated dollars, there are, literally more dollars to go around.

    The 1980s did lower prices, Argentina did have falling Real Estate prices, but the inflated money floated away a lot of debt. People are less likely to take on debt with inflation. Interest rates go up. Inflation can cure a lot of economic woes.

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  26. 26
    David Losh says:

    RE: Blurtman @ 24

    Let me continue with the Organized Crime element that you are trying to promote. How did that work out? How much crime was prevented, or stopped by the world government spending billions of dollars on criminal pursuit of Organized Crime?,

    I’m going to let you ponder that for a while.

    Because i’m going to suggest we would be many dollars ahead by taxing crime, rather than punishing. Look at cigarettes, alchohol, and now marijuana to see how our government can more effectively regulate through taxation than punishment.

    Governments should be taxing financial transactions. We need a global tax code.

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  27. 27
    Blurtman says:

    RE: David Losh @ 26 – Let’s not mythologize the type of crimes that were perpetrated that led to the meltdown of the US economy. It is the oldest scam in the books – pump up the value of an asset and then dump it. Better if you can short it. Not that creative. Typical scumbag behaviour. Why empower this new twist on an old scam buy proposing some type of supernormal New World Order?

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  28. 28
    David Losh says:

    RE: Blurtman @ 27

    All I’m saying is you’re another one who wants the government to fix this. You think if the government would just put a group of people at the defense table, prosecute them, and put them in prison the looting will stop. It won’t.

    You’re suggesting that the rule of law will save the day, It won’t.

    And just to be clear this isn’t the collapse of the United States economy, it’s global. We got away pretty easy with only, let me say, only, $4Tillion dollars in government investment.

    China hasn’t even begun to address it’s economy. Europe may take center stage this decade, but we have South America to sort out next decade.

    It’s global, and spending years prosecuting some petty street corner drug dealers, no matter how prominent they are, will do nothing.

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  29. 29
    Blurtman says:

    RE: David Losh @ 28 – “You think if the government would just put a group of people at the defense table, prosecute them, and put them in prison the looting will stop. It won’t.”

    Incorrect. It will stop those folks from looting.

    As stated previously, it will restore a sense of justice and fairness in this country. What do you think the result is when Americans realize that not only does the law not apply to some people, but some people can break the law, profit greatly, destroy the lives of millions, and suffer no accountability?

    With regards to law enforcement and its ability to deter crimes, that would be an interesting discussion, but taking your position, then murderers should not be prosecuted, as folks will always figure out a way to murder someone?

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  30. 30
    David Losh says:

    RE: Blurtman @ 29

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_World_Order_(conspiracy_theory)

    http://truthquake.com/2011/01/17/eisenhower-warns-americans-world-order-military-industrial-congressional-complex-50-yrs-today-farewell-addres-watch/

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=642552841321950688#

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MCSntXkzA4 more to the point.

    All of which brings us to Jimmy Hoffa, and Robert Kennedy:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNLYXSJjSJU

    Muderers go free every day. If you aren’t paying attention let me point out that we are in an end game of when some rocks were turned over, and the vermin were exposed. Now you want to prosecute.

    We have been prosecuting for decades. We have been on witch hunts for decades. The government hauls them is and then you get to an Oliver North:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kjYDYMNe3c&feature=related

    In my opinion the Oliver North testimony to Congress is something you have in mind.

    Take a long look at all the videos concerning Oliver North’s testimony. It’s the culmination of all the conspiracy theories in the world. He even warns us about Osama Bin Laden.

    Now you think that Wall Street is some how removed from the global conspiracy. You want to call it fraud, you’re claiming laws have been broken. Well I say, this is a Jimmy Hoffa, Oliver North kind of situation where you can clip some wings, but the bird will still fly.

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  31. 31
    Blurtman says:

    RE: David Losh @ 30 – It is irrelevant if the Wall Street fraud is caused by a global conspiracy or little green men from Mars. Apply the law, and prosecute the guilty.

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  32. 32
    David Losh says:

    RE: Blurtman @ 31

    Watch at the videos. The government has been applying the law for decades, it doesn’t help.

    If Congress wanted to do something they could change the usury laws; lower the interest rate allowable on consumer credit. Congress can change the tax code to recapture some of the losses the American Tax Payers have paid.

    Criminal prosecution has netted zero results even in the worst of criminal activity.

    The War on Drugs has cost billions, and netted zero results for prosecution. Somebody else steps in.

    The Occupy Wall Streeters have the right idea, but lack organization, and threat. Us old guys remember that the Civil Rights Movement was all fair game, and legalities, until the Black Panther Party carried guns in the streets.

    In other words, the law of the jungle will prevail here. This is no time to go to court, or to play nice. What is going on in Northern Africa, and Europe will come here. The Republican Party is seeing to that. The more divisive the Republicans become, the more they attack Obama, the more they want things to go back to the way they were, the closer we get to open hostilities.

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  33. 33
    Blurtman says:

    RE: David Losh @ 32 – Nope. Jail the law breakers. And then whatever comes after that, well, it can come. Your argument that crime will always continue is a spurious argument for not prosecuting crimes. I didn’t notice the justice system ceasing to prosecute armed robbery.

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  34. 34
    David Losh says:

    RE: Blurtman @ 33

    Your argument is exactly why I put up the conspiracy theory links. You have no one to jail. You have bit players in an over all scheme that has the protection of multiple layers of corporate sheilds. You have nothing. You have no master mind, no top tier of mob bosses, or paper trail of conspiracy to commit fraud. Sure, you can, or some one can prove fraud, but it’s meaningless, it goes nowhere without RICO:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racketeer_Influenced_and_Corrupt_Organizations_Act

    Even if you could prove that you couldn’t prove that the criminal organization is ongoing. We have legislation to prove that.

    You’re stuck. You have no place to go with this. These people got away with it. There is absolutely nothing there to prove. There is nothing there except some poor dumb saps who didn’t get out of the way fast enough. MF Global is a good example. No one will ever unravel that theft. There are the targets that were in place well after the money was gone.

    I’m going to say again that there will be no orderly resolution to what took place. Nobody is going to jail. It is way too large, and complex.

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  35. 35

    By Blurtman @ 33:

    RE: <a href='#comment-146219' – Nope. Jail the law breakers. And then whatever comes after that, well, it can come. Your argument that crime will always continue is a spurious argument for not prosecuting crimes. I didn't notice the justice system ceasing to prosecute armed robbery.

    The problem is you need to have a previously defined crime first, and be able to identify that crime. That something bad happened does not necessarily mean a crime was committed and might not even give rise to civil liability. The example I gave yesterday to my mom was she probably had no recourse against the truck that lost its tire tread, damaging her car.

    Throwing people in jail because you don’t like what happened in the past is something done by dictators and banana republics. If you start throwing people in jail just on a whim, then the most productive members of society will simply stop doing anything for fear they will be later deemed to have done something bad if they do anything.

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  36. 36

    RE: Blurtman @ 33 – Let’s put this in context.

    Do you think Joe Paterno should go to jail because he only reported the suspected abuse to his superiors rather than to the police, even though reporting it to his superiors was all that’s required?

    Bad things possibly happened!. Should Paterno be thrown in jail?

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  37. 37
    Blurtman says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 35

    Countering your toothless and irrelevant strawman logic – bad things happening do not rule out illegal behaviour. In fact, laws exist to regulate behaviours that result in bad things happening.

    The opinion of experts including folks like Angelides, Stiglitz, and others posted in many links by myself anf others would indicate that fraud had been committed.

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  38. 38
    Blurtman says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 36 I think Pete Carroll should be thrown in jail, or at least run out of town riding a rail. Jo Pa is untouchable! God will strike dead the first man who seeks to cast a stone against that American legend.

    “Riding the rail (also called running out of town on a rail) was a punishment in Colonial America in which a man (rarely a woman) was made to straddle a fence rail (usually the triangular split-rail rather than the modern machine-milled) held on the shoulders of at least two men, with other men on either side to keep him upright. The victim was then paraded around town or taken to the city limits and dumped by the roadside.[citation needed] Intense pain came from the weight of the body resting on the sharp, narrow edge and injuries from the ride could, if the victim were stripped, cut the crotch and make walking painful. Alternatively, the term also refers to tying a person’s hands and feet around a rail so the person dangles under the rail.

    The punishment was usually a form of mob extrajudicial punishment, sometimes imposed in connection with tarring and feathering.[1] It was intended to show community displeasure with the victim so he either conformed his behavior or left.”

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  39. 39

    By Blurtman @ 37:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 35

    Countering your toothless and irrelevant strawman logic – bad things happening do not rule out illegal behaviour. In fact, laws exist to regulate behaviours that result in bad things happening.

    The opinion of experts including folks like Angelides, Stiglitz, and others posted in many links by myself anf others would indicate that fraud had been committed.

    I never said making anything illegal would prevent bad behavior. That’s what people who think drugs should be illegal think.

    You use the words “experts” rather loosely. Is either of those people an attorney? If so, was either one at any point in time a prosecutor or in private practice in criminal law. Absent both those questions being answered affirmatively, they are not experts.

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  40. 40

    RE: Blurtman @ 38 – Well at least it’s clear you don’t believe in the law. You believe in mob justice, which is far from justice.

    In civilized countries run by intelligent people, you don’t make up laws after the fact to be used to throw people in jail.

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  41. 41
    Blurtman says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 40 – The FBI and DOJ can be effective in prosecuting organized crime. But it takes some resolve to do so. An investigation into possible S&L fraud was strongly resisted by the establishment at the time. But the resistance was overcome. Apparently, that will not be the case this time. But as tremendous losses have been dumped on the backs of taxpayers, and more are hidden, it is possible that as things worsen, it will be difficult to continue the cover up.

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  42. 42
    David Losh says:

    RE: Blurtman @ 41

    I’m always glad to discuss the Savings, and Loan Scandal, because it ties in nicely with George Bush the First.

    It’s kind of funny no one has noticed the similar pattern, but what the heck. Here’s a time line for you: http://www.fdic.gov/bank/historical/s&l/

    With Savings, and Loans there was evidence everywhere. That was easy to prosecute. My favorite was the guy who had a “fleet” of air planes some bank lent on, The problem was that they were all surplus, out in the desert, in a variety of stages of salvage. I forget how many millions he made, or lost as the case may be, but it was a time of blatant looting.

    What amazes me is that you, or that no one addresses what is going on today in Europe. That is where the corruption is settling in.

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  43. 43

    RE: Blurtman @ 41 – You’re still assuming that there was some criminal statute and some violation of that statute.

    I, one the other hand, am not denying that criminal activity existed. I just can’t point to what it was, and realize that even if it did exist, the proof of it could be very difficult.

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  44. 44
    Blurtman says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 43 – Sorry, I have already reported you to the Occupy Realtor Street (ORS) group. If you look out your window, you should see the crowd gathering. My advice would be the crawlspace if things get nasty.

    When do you think the results of Holder’s DOJ investigation will be made public?

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  45. 45

    By Blurtman @ 44:

    When do you think the results of Holder’s DOJ investigation will be made public?

    Once it’s concluded, I’m not sure there would be any basis for it not to be made public, unless there were active prosecutions.

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  46. 46

    What’s up with this story?

    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20118945-503544.html

    Gingrich wants Benanke fired. Is that even possible? I thought Fed Chairs were secure throughout their term no matter what they did.

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  47. 47
    David Losh says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 46RE: Blurtman @ 44

    This came in the patrick.net e-mail I get:

    http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/how-the-gop-became-the-party-of-the-rich-20111109?source=patrick.net

    The article explains beautifully how we got to where we are.

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  48. 48
    Blurtman says:

    President Dumbama’s “Let’s move forward” staretgy to dodge accountability has been correctly discredited at Penn State. In fact, the moving forward strategy was villified at Penn State, and the architects of that abysmal strategy rightfully fired. Moelsting children is a serious matter. How about killing women and children? How about torture? Now about unlawful incarceration?

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  49. 49
  50. 50
    Blurtman says:

    Bush, Cheney and Rice – war criminals.

    “The precedent again goes back to the Nuremberg Judgment of 1946 when the lawyers for the Nazi defendants argued that we, the Nazi government had a right to go to war in self-defense as we saw it, and no one could tell us any differently. Of course that preposterous argument was rejected by Nuremberg. It is very distressing to see some of the highest level of officials of our country making legal arguments that were rejected by the Nuremberg Tribunal.”

    “An objective observer would reach the conclusion that this Iraq war is a War of Aggression, and as such, that it amounts to a Crime against Peace of the sort for which surviving German leaders were indicted, prosecuted and punished at the Nuremberg trials conducted shortly after the Second World War.”

    “I have indicated (the invasion of Iraq) was not in conformity with the UN charter… from the charter point of view, it was illegal.”

    http://www.examiner.com/nonpartisan-in-national/open-proposal-for-us-revolution-end-unlawful-wars-all-from-known-lies-2-of-4

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  51. 51
    Trigger says:

    RE: Scotsman @ 22 – Scotsman – At least you agree that the Fed will not let itself to be out printed. No one and no country will be able to out print us – PERIOD. And we will use printing presses to make sure people have money in the pockets.

    I remember there were lots of people saying the Fed cannot print, will not buy debt etc. And I like the posts saying the govt cannot do anything.

    The reality is that we can print and then print some more. If we make a mistake we will end up with some type of stagflation scenario.

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  52. 52
    Blurtman says:

    Sinking in a sea of corruption. zero accountability for the connected, and war crimes.

    July 14th: Bachus bets $4,500 that the financial sector will fall, and sells short. Bachus comes up a winner and cashes out the next day for $1,500 in profit.
    August 15th and 22nd: the Alabama congressman buys over $11,000 of SPDR sector option contracts, and sells them a few days later for $5,000.
    September 8th: Paulson gets a troubling call from General Electric CEO Jeffrey Immelt, saying GE is having trouble moving its bonds. Two days later, Bachus shorts GE options four times in a single day, more than doubling his money.
    September 10th and 15th: Bachus shorts GE a total of 12 times and comes up a winner 9 times—an impressive average for the high-risk options game.
    September 18th: Bachus and congressional leaders receive a private briefing from Paulson and Federal Reserve chairman Ben Bernanke inside then-Speaker Nancy Pelosi’s office. Bernanke warns of a total financial meltdown in a matter of days. The very next day, September 19th, Bachus shorts the market by buying contract options on Proshares Ultra-Short QQQ, an index fund that strives for results 200% of the inverse of the Nasdaq 100. He nearly doubles his money when he sells his shares four days later for over $13,000.
    October 21st: the Federal Reserve announces it will spend $540 billion to buy debt from money market mutual funds. The next day Bachus buys over $5,000 of options in Market Vectors TRN, and more than doubles his money.

    tl;dr

    40 options trades that netted him as much as $50,000 in capital gains in 3 months. The market itself lost 30% of its value in a near meltdown from July 18 – Oct 24.

    Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1111/68319.html#ixzz1diDpTVrw

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  53. 53
    ChrisM says:

    Fascinating 30 minute interview with the author of a book on hyperinflation in Weimar Germany:

    http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/2011/11/must-view-video-on-coming-inflation.html

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  54. 54
    David Losh says:

    There is a great chart in this article about global housing prices:

    http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2011/11/a-global-view-of-the-housing-bubble/?source=patrick.net

    It came in today’s http://www.patrick.net e-mail

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  55. 55
    Blurtman says:

    Obama truly sucks.

    “Mr. Pecora found more questions than answers, and insisted on more subpoenas, more forensic investigators and more brokers testifying under oath. Like a man reaching into a barrel of dead fish, he found a great stink. Not least, he discovered that National City (the lineal ancestor of the same misbehaving Citigroup) had sold flawed investments and that its president engaged in something close to tax evasion.

    Seventy-eight years later, the Obama administration has Shaun Donovan, secretary of housing and urban development; the economic adviser Gene Sperling; and Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. dialing liberals, activists and bloggers, urging them to pressure the rebellious attorneys general to forgo emotionally satisfying inquiries and take the deal.

    Banks make money and find loopholes, the president noted last month. These actions aren’t “necessarily against the law.”

    That raises the question: How does he know?”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/15/nyregion/patience-grows-thin-for-banks-foreclosure-excuses.html?_r=3

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  56. 56
    Scotsman says:

    Oh pffffffft? Pffffft, where are you?

    This can’t be- statistical proof that stimulus/.gov spending adds NOTHING to private sector employment:

    “a recent study published by the Phoenix Center looked at the empirical evidence for the US over the last 50 years and found that government spending/stimulus had zero positive impact on private sector job creation.”

    To see how the Phoenix Center came to its conclusion, now let ΔY be employment growth, ΔX be investment growth, and ΔZ be government consumption and investment growth, and run the regression over the 1960-2011 period et voilà! Proof positive that multipliers for government spending are zero while those for investment very large.”

    http://www.econbrowser.com/archives/2011/11/i_killed_some_b.html

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  57. 57
    Scotsman says:

    RE: Scotsman @ 56

    I’d add snarky comments to the above but the stupid comment editor won’t let me.

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 0

  58. 58
    Scotsman says:

    Official FHA projections are out: assuming deeper second dip home values will return to their 2007 pak in. . . 2025?

    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-4WYmecPleos/TsJ-dcEp3rI/AAAAAAAALTo/dLVYJafhHPA/s1600/FHAHousePriceScenarios

    Don’t even get me started on the assumed growth rates following 2014. Who are they kidding? Same as we saw during the bubble ramp up?

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  59. 59
    David Losh says:

    RE: Scotsman @ 56

    What’s not counted is the effect of taxation. It seems taxation also stimulates job growth, capital expenditure, and hiring.

    I just got a lecture from my new bookkeeper, It is kind of like the lecture my accountant gave me about being a happy tax payer. We need to spend more. We need to account for more, but spend it.

    I meet the bookkeeper in another guys business who I have know of, but never met. He is a real American. He has stuff all over his shop. He has machines he hasn’t had a chance to play with yet. He’s got everything including a dump truck and excavator in his warehouse in Hoquim.

    The government can tax judiciously. We can pay for the deficit, and put people to work if we taxed well, and taxed the people who just play with the money, rather than have it in circulation. We can tax inheritance that is strangling this economy by putting more money into the hands of idiots.

    Government being able to pay for stuff also circulates money, real money.

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  60. 60
    Scotsman says:

    RE: David Losh @ 59

    ” We can tax inheritance that is strangling this economy by putting more money into the hands of idiots.”

    Well, you may have a point there. ;-)

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 0

  61. 61
    Trigger says:

    RE: Scotsman @ 56 – Scotsman – the only thing that we need now is have banks do more lending. So that companies can grow and so that people can have more money in the pockets. Nothing else. Very simple. Just need the banks to take risks so that economy can grow nicely. The bankers should slowly start getting rid of unemployment. They need to create more money using the normal multiplier.

    Also Bernake can help them a bit more. Just need more spending to get the economy going really strong.

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  62. 62
    Blurtman says:

    RE: Trigger @ 61 – The only thing we need to do is prosecute financial fraud, and lock up the guilty bankers. That is a requirement for an economic recovery. That, and the enforcement of regulations as well as the enforcement of the law.

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  63. 63
    Trigger says:

    RE: Blurtman @ 62 – Blurtman – but who cares. The bankers made their money now and are enjoying Bahamas. Why cause unrest. Let’s print some money, get rid of toxic debt and then let’s encourage banks to take risks so that they can make some money and send more people to Bahamas. People need to get rich so that they can enjoy life and take advantage of the good waves we are riding on.

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  64. 64
    Blurtman says:

    RE: Trigger @ 63 – Hey, you are right. Let’s let crime happen, ignore it, and move on. BTW, Jerry Sandusky has booked some play time with your kids. Based upon your philosophy, I guess that is OK, then.

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  65. 65
    Trigger says:

    RE: Blurtman @ 64 – No. What I am saying the priority is to make sure banks have a lot of money and they simply lend a lot of money so that people can spend and make the economy grow. They need to invest in healthy enterprises ideally so that money can be made.

    So there are crooks out there. In fact most people when presented with the right opportunity become crooks. So this is not a biggie. But we should put some in jail especially to make the public happy. But jail will not solve anything anyways.

    The normal people will be most happy in the long run if they have jobs and make some money.

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  66. 66
    David Losh says:

    RE: Trigger @ 65

    The problem is the banks, and debt markets. We are headed for another financial crash because Obama never held any one’s feet to the fire.

    All the money is in the system being held for ransom. Safe, secure, prudent financial strategy is still making billions of dollars in profits, and cash reserves. There’s no reason to take any risk when we have low interest, and a need for continued global survival.

    Rather than pay cash to finance anything it makes more profit to borrow money at a low rate then tack a profit onto the sale of goods. People have to pay in order to eat. That’s your inflation, today.

    People are going to have to figure out how to beat the bank, by pass the crooks, and grow into a solid financial footing.

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  67. 67
    Trigger says:

    RE: David Losh @ 66 – David – So the bank borrows a lot of money at a small interest rate. In order to make any money it needs to lend. If it does not lend it makes no profit. So where are the banks parking so much cash that is flying around?

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  68. 68
    David Losh says:

    RE: Trigger @ 67

    Banks no longer have to lend money. Banks can invest in anything that will make a profit. It’s what the share holders want.

    You may get a boost in your stock price, so you are happy. That boost in stock price may represent an investment in wheat futures that drives up the price of bread. We have to have it. Emerging economies need to have rice, wheat, oil, cooking oil, or anything else.

    Your boost in stock prices gets paid for by a family in China who needs to have a bowl of rice. They just need to pay a nickle more for it. Hey, never mind that a nickle means a lot to these people, you get a boost in your stock price, so you’re happy, just to put it simply.

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  69. 69
    Blurtman says:

    RE: Trigger @ 65 – “In fact most people when presented with the right opportunity become crooks.”

    You have a deplorable view of humanity. Would your belief extend to anyone involved in a children’s charity, like Sandusky?

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  70. 70
    Trigger says:

    RE: Blurtman @ 69 – Blurtman – Look at the Stanford experiment. Or better look at the second world war. It is easy to make a human being do a lot of things.

    Most of the people when presented with the right opportunity take advantage of this. It is very simple. Not a biggie.

    Some people tend to do 1 crime vs the other. What you are talking about are white collar crimes:)

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  71. 71
    David Losh says:

    RE: Trigger @ 70

    Actually he is presenting that most people follow the rules. What you are saying is that we certainly have to monitor banking activity more closely.

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 0

  72. 72
    ChrisM says:

    http://brucekrasting.blogspot.com/2011/11/cbo-report-we-should-subsidize-more.html

    “The CBO is making a very strong suggestion that ON BUDGET mortgage relief should be considered as an economic stimulus. “

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  73. 73
    Trigger says:

    RE: David Losh @ 71 – When I was in Palm Beach, FL enjoying the winter in 2005 – Palm Beach Post was making jokes that janitors are buying 1 mln dollar villas all around Miami. I asked my friend who worked for a top Wall Street firm whether this is an issue – he said it is not such a biggie because the mortgages are securitized and then shipped off overseas. So it will not cause too much damage although there maybe a wave of foreclosures coming and could dampen the building activity in the future.

    So even normal people knew all of this. It was not such a biggie. A lot of them knew and were all relaxed about this.

    As I said people look at way to make a buck. Other companies in my opinion including banks are the same. The mechanism is the same. There is no need to feel uptight. The only difference is that banks make more money and can retire more people in Hawaii.

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  74. 74
    Blurtman says:

    RE: Trigger @ 70 – You are revealing your character by projecting your feelings to the population at large. You should probably not work in an environment where you would be tempted to break the law.

    You may find this difficult to believe, but many people would not break the law, or act immorally given the opportunity to do so. Such folks are outraged by the blatant, harmful criminal behaviour that is being sanctioned by our government.

    It is human nature to reject a injustice. Recall that poor street vendor whose self-immolation set off the Middle East popular uprising. Enough is enough.

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  75. 75
    Trigger says:

    RE: Blurtman @ 74 – I do not try to project my feelings – but I just look at the history. People can do many things and it is relatively easy to manipulate them and it is easy to corrupt them. Just go to Mexico – so many police officers will accept bribes from you. When presented with the right risk/reward ratio – human beings are conditioned to take advantage of the opportunity.

    Now it is true that bankers should be a bit afraid of the population that could make some revolution and that is why it is better to keep the population at bay and give them just enough so that they stay put and are more happy and people can get on with their lives.

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  76. 76
    David Losh says:

    RE: Trigger @ 75

    Whoa, who would have thought easy peasey Trigger would be a Fascist? OK, I don’t really know the word to call it, but it’s not good, whatever it is.

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  77. 77
    Blurtman says:

    RE: David Losh @ 76 – Facist is about right. We must all bow before the banks, and maybe they will give us some cake.

    I am thinking he is a teenager, though. Past statements are not well thought out, and seemingly designed to ellicit controversy.

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  78. 78
    Trigger says:

    RE: David Losh @ 76 – Where do you see a single fascist comment? I merely said that many people in all countries if presented with the right opportunity will become corrupt. That includes the US, Mexico, Europe etc.

    I have a better example to illustrate. I know a person who drives in WA state very carefully. Why – because police here is more likely to give you a ticket when you speed. The same person in Mexico likes speeding and even carries a couple of $20 bills used to bribe. So this has nothing to do with countries, nationalities etc. It has to do with opportunity.

    Bankers saw a good opportunity to make some money on the books at least. And this is what they did. Where there was a bubble people knew about it – and it was all cool. Look even this web site got started during peak bubble times. In fact I found it sometime in 2006 when I queried for real estate Seattle bubble.

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  79. 79
    Trigger says:

    RE: Trigger @ 78 – Also look at the Greece. As the situation deteriorates – crime is rising. People are frustrated, get laid off and then the opportunity to break in to sb’s house looks tempting. So depending on the situation people make different decisions and this is no biggie. It is not tied to any race, country or anything like that.

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  80. 80
    David Losh says:

    RE: Trigger @ 78

    That’s a warp view of the world we live in.

    You came across in your comments differently with the take a hike, be mellow. Now you are saying we should all spend more time getting ours, while we watch our backs.

    Most people just want to live. They want to spend time with the kids, and see that the kids have the right tools to make a better life for themselves.

    No matter what, there is only so much a person can do, and consume in a life time. Corruption, greed, or sloth, don’t contribute to a quality of life.

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  81. 81
    Scotsman says:

    “In broad brush, the Powers That Be have gone “all in” on a bet that this recession is no different than past post-war recessions. All we need to do to get through this “rough patch” is borrow and spend money at the Federal level, and the household and business sectors will soon recover their desire and ability to borrow more and spend it all on one thing or another. We don’t really care what or how, because all spending adds up into gross domestic product (GDP).

    Unfortunately, this diagnosis is flat-out wrong. This is not just another post-war recession, and so the treatment—lowering interest rates to zero and flooding the economy with borrowed money and liquidity—isn’t working. In fact, it’s making the patient sicker by the day.

    http://www.oftwominds.com/blognov11/debt-jobs11-11.html

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  82. 82
    pfft says:

    By Scotsman @ 56:

    Oh pffffffft? Pffffft, where are you?

    This can’t be- statistical proof that stimulus/.gov spending adds NOTHING to private sector employment:

    “a recent study published by the Phoenix Center looked at the empirical evidence for the US over the last 50 years and found that government spending/stimulus had zero positive impact on private sector job creation.”

    To see how the Phoenix Center came to its conclusion, now let Î�Y be employment growth, Î�X be investment growth, and Î�Z be government consumption and investment growth, and run the regression over the 1960-2011 period et voilà! Proof positive that multipliers for government spending are zero while those for investment very large.”

    http://www.econbrowser.com/archives/2011/11/i_killed_some_b.html

    sorry, wrong again.

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  83. 83
    pfft says:

    By Scotsman @ 81:

    “In broad brush, the Powers That Be have gone “all in” on a bet that this recession is no different than past post-war recessions. All we need to do to get through this â��rough patchâ�� is borrow and spend money at the Federal level, and the household and business sectors will soon recover their desire and ability to borrow more and spend it all on one thing or another. We donâ��t really care what or how, because all spending adds up into gross domestic product (GDP).

    Unfortunately, this diagnosis is flat-out wrong. This is not just another post-war recession, and so the treatment�lowering interest rates to zero and flooding the economy with borrowed money and liquidity�isn�t working. In fact, it�s making the patient sicker by the day.

    http://www.oftwominds.com/blognov11/debt-jobs11-11.html

    actually no borrowing money saved us from a depression.

    “making the patient sicker by the day.”

    that’s european austerity not keynes.

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  84. 84
    Scotsman says:

    RE: pfft @ 83RE: pfft @ 82

    Love your argument- I’m sure it’s winning hearts and minds all across the country. Eventually regurgitation just turns into the dry heaves- lots of noise and action, but no substance. I think that’s where you’re at. Time to recapture the early passion and put your heart into it again. Or perhaps you’re through the grieving phase and onto acceptance. Take Trigger’s advice- relax, go for a hike, live a little while we can.

    By the way- where have you been- hanging out with the occupy folks? Locally, Portland, down in Cali?

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  85. 85
    pfft says:

    “no substance”

    pfft. all you post is pseudoeconomics and often from a fiction writer.

    New CBO Report: Up to 2.4 Million People Owe Their Jobs to the Recovery Act
    http://www.offthechartsblog.org/new-cbo-report-up-to-2-4-million-people-owe-their-jobs-to-the-recovery-act/

    anyone who believes that spending $700 billion at a time when people aren’t spending is a fool.

    so how is austerity doing?

    Austerity Gets Results: British Unemployment Highest in 17 Years
    http://news.firedoglake.com/2011/10/12/austerity-gets-results-british-unemployment-highest-in-17-years/

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  86. 86
    pfft says:

    green blanking jobs and a cleaner environment/healthier population. progress.

    Wind Power Gets Huge Boost With Pennsylvania Project
    http://idealab.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/11/wind-power-gets-huge-boost-with-pa-project.php?ref=fpnewsfeed

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  87. 87
    pfft says:

    German bond auction the biggest failure in awhile. austerity clearly not working as germany gets sucked in. UK 10-year are lower.

    Merkel Rejects Euro Bonds Again After Auction
    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-11-24/germany-rejects-euro-bonds-after-failed-auction-wake-up-call-.html

    euro bonds are coming. that is what the market is saying. mother of all bailouts begins.

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  88. 88
    Scotsman says:

    RE: pfft @ 87RE: pfft @ 86RE: pfft @ 85

    Yup, more regurgitation.

    “Can I get a clean-up on isle 7?”

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  89. 89
    pfft says:

    just laying out the facts. yeah, you are some brilliant thinker. you’re like the newt gingrich of SB.

    where has austerity worked mr smarty pants? europe? the UK?

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  90. 90
    Trigger says:

    RE: pfft @ 89 – I agree with Pffft. The only way to get out of debt is to spend even more. The more you spend the more jobs you create and the more people are happy. I think Bernake just needs to send us some sacks full of $$. People should then spend it a little.

    I think the Fed and the govt could help the US consumer by erasing all debt. People who take on too much debt should be rewarded by having their debt canceled by the govt.

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  91. 91
    pfft says:

    “The only way to get out of debt is to spend even more. The more you spend the more jobs you create and the more people are happy.”

    exactly trigger. now you get it.

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  92. 92
    Trigger says:

    RE: pfft @ 91 – Pffft – I always got it. In fact I always told that nobody and no one is going to out print the US.

    The only thing that I am wondering about is that in the past 3 world countries would pursue this policy. And then IMF would advise austerity measures and all of this would result in poverty, shrinking GDP. I wonder why would IMF advise 3rd world countries to pursue different policies from the US?

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  93. 93
    pfft says:

    to honest the IMF doesn’t appear to have a consistent thesis right now. it warns of of the dangers of cutting deficits but warns what will happen if deficits aren’t cut.

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  94. 94
    pfft says:

    the only question is this. what is the output gap(difference between what the economy could produce and what it is producing) and how much government spending do we need to fill that gap?

    we’ve tried austerity and it’s failed.

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  95. 95
    pfft says:

    trigger, the us inflation rate is really low by historical standards. bernanke has one of the best records on inflation of any fed chairman.

    http://bpp.mit.edu/usa/

    Is Bernanke the “most inflationary” Fed chairman in history?
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/post/is-bernanke-the-most-inflationary-fed-chairman-in-history/2011/09/08/gIQAvNITCK_blog.html

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  96. 96
    Trigger says:

    RE: pfft @ 95 – So why can’t the Fed buy some more debt in order to get rid of the debt burden. As long as no inflation happens then this should be ok? So all other countries should stay away from austerity. If sb gets in trouble then they should simply spend more and print some money in reasonable quantities as not to cause inflation.

    With lending being down – less money is created by retail banks like Key bank. So the Fed can jump in to create this money.

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  97. 97
    pfft says:

    “With lending being down – less money is created by retail banks like Key bank. So the Fed can jump in to create this money.”

    hey 3 years in and he finally gets it!

    ” As long as no inflation happens then this should be ok? So all other countries should stay away from austerity.”

    exactly. the SB example is stupid. how can you think you’re providing any reasonable critique of keynes and not know that SB is not a country. amazingly terrifying. you still haven’t figured that one yet 3 years in? the common wisdom seems to be that the fed should tolerate higher than 2% inflation for a time to pull us out of the deep hole we are in.

    imagine if unemployment were even lower what consumer spending would be?

    Black Friday Sales Rise 6.6% to Record: ShopperTrak
    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-11-26/consumers-in-u-s-release-pent-up-demand-amid-brisk-black-friday-traffic.html

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  98. 98
    David Losh says:

    RE: pfft @ 97RE: Trigger @ 96

    The problem is that printing money doesn’t create velocity. The money just sits now in reserves, speculation on safe returns, investment in emerging markets, and smart money investments.

    Taxation on the other hand would get money moving into capitalization.

    I’ll tell another story about when I was a kid listening to an architect complain about taxation. He refused to work because 50% of what he made went to the government. He figured he was working for “them.”

    As it turns out he did make a lot of money by avoiding taxes by building apartment buildings. He would take money he made and invest it into building housing units which gave him a tax break. He invested money he didn’t have to pay the government.

    Over the course of twenty years he made so much money from rental income that he couldn’t off set his earnings fast enough, so he quit working. His kids however were old enough then to take up where he left off.

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  99. 99
    Trigger says:

    RE: pfft @ 97 – Pfft – but 3 years ago I was saying exactly that Bernake will send money so that people can spend so it is best to relax and wait for money to come in. It is very easy. Anyways in my opinion ideally we would use some money on investments otherwise it will be harder to keep economy competitive. Other than that it is all cool.

    And also ideally there would be some new tech revolution or sthg like that.It would help people focus on increasing efficiency and relaxing more.

    So Pfft – relax and wait for the money to come your way.

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  100. 100
    pfft says:

    By Trigger @ 99:

    RE: pfft @ 97 – Pfft – but 3 years ago I was saying exactly that Bernake will send money so that people can spend so it is best to relax and wait for money to come in. It is very easy. Anyways in my opinion ideally we would use some money on investments otherwise it will be harder to keep economy competitive. Other than that it is all cool.

    And also ideally there would be some new tech revolution or sthg like that.It would help people focus on increasing efficiency and relaxing more.

    So Pfft – relax and wait for the money to come your way.

    you’re trolling.

    “Anyways in my opinion ideally we would use some money on investments otherwise it will be harder to keep economy competitive”

    uh guess you missed the big push to spend on infrastructure?

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  101. 101
    Blurtman says:

    Debt jubilee, suggests Steve Keen.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=SkesgECRXtM

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  102. 102
    pfft says:

    The Woman Who Knew Too Much
    http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2011/11/elizabeth-warren-201111

    great article about elizabeth warren.

    this BI article shows the perils of the new gold standard. we can see why the world went off the gold standard. it’s too restrictive. internal devaluation is too painful.

    The Entire Sovereign Debt Crisis Can Be Understood By Looking At Sweden Vs. Finland
    http://www.businessinsider.com/sweden-vs-finland-2011-11#ixzz1exHwjy7j

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  103. 103
    ChrisM says:

    RE: pfft @ 2 – Wish I knew what EW expected to do in the Senate. I agree w/ Yves Smith, I think EW is blowing an opportunity to do something significant.

    EW’s book is certainly worth reading. Written in 1998, she talks about high housing costs!!!
    http://www.amazon.com/Two-Income-Trap-Middle-Class-Parents-Going/dp/0465090907/

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  104. 104
    pfft says:

    By ChrisM @ 103:

    RE: pfft @ 2 – Wish I knew what EW expected to do in the Senate. I agree w/ Yves Smith, I think EW is blowing an opportunity to do something significant.

    EW’s book is certainly worth reading. Written in 1998, she talks about high housing costs!!!
    http://www.amazon.com/Two-Income-Trap-Middle-Class-Parents-Going/dp/0465090907/

    the Senate is a high-profile job though. she’ll have a platform everyday plus she can still be involved in watching over Wall Street.

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  105. 105
    Trigger says:

    RE: pfft @ 100 – Pfft – The infrastructure looks ok but not great. It will not revolutionize the economy. But at least the dilapidated infratructure will not kill the economy. But this tactic is kind of like damage control. I was thinking of something more ambitious.

    Otherwise what will happen is that the rest of the world will start catching up and it will get harder and harder to compete in the global marketplace.

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  106. 106
    pfft says:

    By Trigger @ 105:

    RE: pfft @ 100But at least the dilapidated infratructure will not kill the economy.

    actually no. studies show that lack of infrastructure could cost our economy tens if not hundreds of billions of dollars.

    ok after a quick google whirlwind it may cost trillions.

    Report: Crumbling transportation infrastructure could cost U.S. $3.1 trillion
    http://www.metro-magazine.com/News/Story/2011/07/Report-Crumbling-transportation-infrastructure-could-cost-U-S-3-1-trillion.aspx

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  107. 107
    Trigger says:

    RE: pfft @ 106
    Yours is correct
    actually no. studies show that lack of infrastructure could cost our economy tens if not hundreds of billions of dollars.

    That’s also correct:
    at least the dilapidated infratructure will not kill the economy.

    What I was hoping for is that there are ways you can revolutionize the economy. Those are all good things we are doing now. But they are not like the time when a computer was invented.

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  108. 108
    pfft says:

    By Trigger @ 107:

    RE: pfft @ 106
    Yours is correct
    actually no. studies show that lack of infrastructure could cost our economy tens if not hundreds of billions of dollars.

    That’s also correct:
    at least the dilapidated infratructure will not kill the economy.

    What I was hoping for is that there are ways you can revolutionize the economy. Those are all good things we are doing now. But they are not like the time when a computer was invented.

    yes. studies show that if you don’t fight the liquidity trap as much as possible you reduce the long-run growth rate, and thus people’s lives, for a very long time.

    who cares about computers if you don’t have a job?

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  109. 109
    Trigger says:

    RE: pfft @ 108 – We are not in disagreement here. Look at even how Dow reacted after Europe decided to do some printing. This is good. It makes sense to invest in infrastructure however if there are better opportunities that will revolutionize the economy then this is even better.

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  110. 110
    pfft says:

    By Trigger @ 109:

    RE: pfft @ 108 – We are not in disagreement here. Look at even how Dow reacted after Europe decided to do some printing. This is good. It makes sense to invest in infrastructure however if there are better opportunities that will revolutionize the economy then this is even better.

    europe didn’t print. it just did some swaps. if europe printed the dow would have gone up way more.

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  111. 111
    Blurtman says:

    RE: ChrisM @ 103 – She’s got a long slog ahead of her unless she can do something really clever before she burns out in 10 years. She will be assimilated. Or marginalized like Bernie.

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