Reader Question: Telltale Signs of Neighborhood Decline?

Here’s a question I received via email from a reader:

As a real estate buyer, here’s a major concern I have when buying a home for the long term.

I bought a house in Phoenix a few years ago where the development was built in the ’70s. At the time it seemed like a good buy. However, a couple of years later it was obvious the neighborhood was in significant decline — for instance, a nearby house was known to be a drug supplier.

The number of cars parked on the street (again, this was a development built in the ’70s where two car garages were part of the package) was on the rise.

After I bought, I realized the neighborhood was in decline, and I sold about two years later.

I haven’t bought a house since, and one of the reasons is that I realize I don’t know how to tell if a neighborhood is in decline. Any advice?

That’s a tough one. I’m not sure that there really is a good way to get a sense of the direction that a neighborhood is headed (improvement vs. decline) without actually living there. You could certainly attempt to look at various stats such as business openings/closures, incomes, etc. but the problem is that these are often difficult to find at a level more fine-grained than zip codes.

Probably the best way I can think of to get a sense for the trend of a neighborhood like that would just be to ask some people who have actually lived there for a while. Spend a little time with county records looking up homes that have been owned by the same people for ten years or more, and just go knock on their door and strike up a conversation some Saturday.

I realize that’s a rather radical suggestion in a place as anti-social as Seattle, but it just might work.

  

About The Tim

Tim Ellis is the founder of Seattle Bubble. His background in engineering and computer / internet technology, a fondness of data-based analysis of problems, and an addiction to spreadsheets all influence his perspective on the Seattle-area real estate market.

168 comments:

  1. 1
    Scot B. says:

    Look at the cars in the neighborhood. Are they relatively new? Clean? You don’t have to have cars up on cinder blocks to tell what the neighborhood is like. You just have to look around.

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  2. 2
    Peter Witting says:

    You have to know the area. Laurelhurst, Windermere, Denny Blaine and Medina are not heading into decline any time soon. I use the relative availability of apartments or Section 8 as a leading indicator of decline. Look at Lake City over the past 20 years as an example.

    The neat trick, however, is to find a neighborhood that isn’t going to decline, but is going to improve over time. Madison Valley and the Central District are examples of once-dicey neighborhoods that are now considered desirable.

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  3. 3
    Buy My House, Idiot Renters! says:

    Drive through the neighborhood at midnight on a Friday or Saturday night – that will provide some clues.

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 0

  4. 4
    wreckingbull says:

    Talk to neighbors. Not only will get a feel for the type of people that live there, you will also get a chance to hear about goings on in the hood.

    Stay away from neighborhoods which are on or surround busy streets.

    If you are buying in a mixed-zone neighborhood. STAY AWAY FROM STREETS WITH APARTMENTS ON THEM. I can’t stress this enough. Go ahead. Call me a snob, but this is your hard-earned money and living on a mixed street is not going to help the value of your home. If you want an example, think of Ballard in the quadrant of Market, 30th, 65th, and 15th.

    And one more thing about the Seattle Freeze. Some of you may wish to consider that the people that are giving you the cold shoulder are the transplants themselves. The rest of us are the nice ones. That being said, if you could please refrain from statements such as:

    “You can’t get a good (insert food item here) in this town. Whaaah.”

    “Seattle drivers and their (insert driving habit here) are the worst”

    ….it may help with the thaw. We were doing just fine before you got here, so put a cork in it.

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  5. 5
    David S says:

    RE: wreckingbull @ 4 – You must not get around much but the driving habits in this region are poor compared to any place I’ve travelled.

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  6. 6
    deejayoh says:

    By David S @ 5:

    RE: wreckingbull @ 4 – You must not get around much but the driving habits in this region are poor compared to any place I’ve travelled.

    You’re not from around here, are you…
    :-)

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 0

  7. 7
    Blurtman says:

    Obama-Hitler posters in the neighborhood may be a telling sign.

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  8. 8

    I agree it’s somewhat hard to predict. One thing I find a good predictor, which doesn’t apply that many places, is narrow roads. If the houses, townhouses or condos are packed together on roads that allow little or no parking, in 10 years it will probably look like crap even if it’s brand new today. Beyond that though, do you really want to live somewhere where one inconsiderate person can possibly block you in or keep you from accessing your property?

    One thing that does help is an active, functioning HOA.

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  9. 9
    WestSideBilly says:

    By David S @ 5:

    RE: wreckingbull @ 4 – You must not get around much but the driving habits in this region are poor compared to any place I’ve travelled.

    Honestly, just about every place in the US that I’ve ever been, people say the same thing. And just about every place I’ve been, drivers are prone to the same things – driving slow in the left lane, ignoring traffic signs, not paying attention, not signaling turns/lane changes, yapping on the their cell phones (whether legal or not), just generally being incompetent. There’s a reason for the Lake Wobegon effect on surveys of how people rate their own driving – there just aren’t that many “good” drivers to compare oneself to.

    If there’s anything that is pronounced about Seattle, it’s the generally poor state of our major roads and highways (and minor roads, for that matter).

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  10. 10
    Pegasus says:

    Go door-to-door and ask whoever answers if they want to buy some crack. If three out of four say yes it’s probably a good sign you might want to live in another neighborhood.

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  11. 11
    Ross Jordan says:

    You can rent in the neighborhood before buying. I think living in the area is really the only way to learn the trend to sufficient detail.

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  12. 12
    Blurtman says:

    RE: Pegasus @ 11 – Unless, of course, you smoke crack.

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  13. 13

    Probably going to the neighborhood would be more valuable than looking at data. Visit the street during a weekday morning and a Saturday night. I made that mistake moving into the Central District 26 years ago. Weekday monings, the neighborhood was nice and quiet, so we moved in. Satuday nights you’d hear the slow moving vehicles with the loud bass coming from the car stereos, and people coming up to you asking if you “needed anything”. I don’t think they were from the neighborhood welcoming committee. Datawise, see if you could find what businesses were there five years ago, and what’s there now: If, five years ago, it was a hardware store, a supermarket, and a pharmacy, and now it’s a food bank, a church, and a pawn shop, it’s probably not a good sign.

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  14. 14
    Pegasus says:

    RE: Ross Jordan @ 11 – Living and renting in an area you might want to buy a house in is a big mistake. First, you will automatically be ostracized as a low-life renter and secondly, if you do decide to buy later the other homeowners will never be able to accept that you are now a bona fide homeowner. Once a low life renter, always a low life renter. You would be better off being a kitten kicker. At least we know that some here don’t mind sharing the neighborhood with them. ;^)

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  15. 15
    Colonel Sanders says:

    By David S @ 5:

    RE: wreckingbull @ 4 – You must not get around much but the driving habits in this region are poor compared to any place I’ve travelled.

    Bellevue drivers are overly aggressive; it seems many of them came from California where the car is an extension of one’s ego.

    One quick way to determine the future of the neighborhood is to determine if the neighborhood plan and city council have been infiltrated by pro-communitarian NGOs with a goal of turning the community into a sustainable self-policing soviet where volunteerism is expected and community gardens exist to feed the local population. If you seen “green,” watermelons aren’t far away.

    Such communities will be tomorrow’s dumps. Especially so since the individuals leading the NGOs don’t have much of a soul left in their bodies. They are far worse than the street criminals because they are smart, well-funded, and organized, and they are fervent in their sustainability efforts, much like being manipulated by a faith-based Satanic religion.

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  16. 16
    Scotsman says:

    Anything south of I-90 is bound to be crap when the big _______________ finally hits. /

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 0

  17. 17
    wreckingbull says:

    RE: Ira Sacharoff @ 13 – This is really good advice. While I live on a quiet road, it is not as quiet as I originally expected, as all my visits were on the weekend. Sort of opposite as your case, but the same concept applies. I’d visit at rush hour morning, rush hour evening, weekend day, and weekend night.

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  18. 18
    Colonel Sanders says:

    By Scotsman @ 16:

    Anything south of I-90 is bound to be crap when the big _______________ finally hits. /

    Big US dollar crash? Why not just say it?

    The IMF, World Bank, China, Russia, and India (and about a dozen other countries) have all very clearly stated, publicly, that they want to replace the US dollar as the world’s reserve currency, and all of them are actively working toward that goal. The only way to write off the $145 trillion debt is to reboot the system and crash the dollar. The international community will start again with a different reserve currency… most likely the Chinese yuan.

    Russia is rumored to be backing Iran’s March 20 rule to only accept non-US oollar currencies and gold in exchange for crude oil to China, Russia, Germany, India, and a few other countries. There’s no way the US will attack Iran because China and Russia will not allow it — they depend too much on Iranian oil. This is the end of the petrodollar. Soon after.. the end of reserve currency status. Then the crash.

    Implications for buying a house? Ever own a $trillion dollar home that you couldn’t sell to an American because all of them were broke?

    By the way, check out the TV-trusting lunatics who don’t have a clue, who vote thumbs down on real news…. see below.

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  19. 19
    Ross Jordan says:

    By Colonel Sanders @ 18:

    By Scotsman @ 16:
    Anything south of I-90 is bound to be crap when the big _______________ finally hits. /

    Big US dollar crash? Why not just say it?

    The IMF, World Bank, China, Russia, and India (and about a dozen other countries) have all very clearly stated, publicly, that they want to replace the US dollar as the world’s reserve currency, and all of them are actively working toward that goal. The only way to write off the $145 trillion debt is to reboot the system and crash the dollar. The international community will start again with a different reserve currency… most likely the Chinese yuan.

    The US dollar is the *worst* currency, except for all the others.

    Chinese yuan as a reserve currency? You want a communist government controlled non free floating currency as reserve?
    Back to pound sterling? Back to gold? Russian Ruble? The (crashing) Euro? The (20 year declining) Yen, The Canadian dollar (which Iceland has hinted they might use – it’s probably the best of the bunch, but not a large currency).

    Petroleum settlements is important, but Iran is a relatively small part of that market, and and even smaller part of the overall market. Other than perhaps gold, USD remains the best of a bad bunch. The reserve currency is USD because more people across the world distrust it the least, not because of what big countries choose.

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  20. 20
    SG says:

    Getting back to the topic….. This is something a friend and I discussed recently. Do all areas gravitate either towards improvement or decline. Because better hoods lead to increasing home prices (in a normal world) leading to higher revenue for the city leading to better law enforcement and schools leading to being branded “better hoods”. And the opposite for the decline. So in 20 years will we end up with two kinds of neighborhoods in Seattle – the good and the bad. I heard Detroit is that way.

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  21. 21
    Andy says:

    Things I would look at:

    Crime stats. Many of these can be found online by visiting your local law enforcement agency’s website. It’s not just high profile stuff like prostitution, rape, and murder. Misdemeanor property crimes and drug crimes also indicate problems.

    School ratings. Good schools aren’t found in bad neighborhoods. I’d wager that school rankings and test scores are a pretty good bellweather.

    Mized use zoning or having mixed use zoning nearby is never good. Stay far away from anything not single family like multi-family or commercial. Duplexes and apartments buildings bring trouble.

    Generally speaking, the higher the ground, the better. Not aways true, but you don’t often see run down neighborhoods high on the hill.

    As has been said before, stay away from busy through roads and, alternatively, cramped cookie cutter neighborhoods.

    I would look for neighborhoods with unique and interesting natural features like views, proximity to open space, or proximity to water.

    I look at demographics. I don’t care about political correctness, you can tell a lot about a neighboohood by looking at the residents. You all know what I mean, even if the thought makes you squeemish.

    Stay away from military bases.

    Cars parked on lawns is never good.

    Absense of nice cars is never good.

    Grafiti is never good.

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  22. 22

    RE: SG @ 20
    But neighborhoods are not static. They change. 35 years ago there were abandoned, boarded up houses with squatters in them on North Capitol Hill, a neighborhood where houses now sell for 600 thousand plus. Columbia City was definitely thought of as the ghetto, and now is as trendy as any, with yoga studios, bakeries, Tai Chi classes, Thai restaurants, etc. Kent was thought of as a solid middle class town with award winning schools, and now it’s thought of as a little dangerous. Just because an area is on it’s way down doesn’t mean it won’t come back up, and just because an area has become uber hip doesn’t mean that the light will shine on it forever.

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  23. 23
    Jonness says:

    Top 10 ways to know when a neighborhood is in decline:

    10) When you meet the neighbor’s wife, and she has two black eyes.
    9) When your neighbor has better inventory than the local wrecking yard.
    8) When greater than 50% of the cars that pass by on the street are in serious need of new mufflers.
    7) When you go for a walk around the block and are greeted by 5 different women wearing mini-skirts who ask you if you need a date.
    6) When you park your car on the street, open the door, and step on a crack vial.
    5) When you look down at your 11-year old neighbor’s daughter’s arm and notice she has track marks.
    4) When you decide not to call the cops after the next door neighbors have yet another knock-down drag-out fight, and instead you go over to their house and ask if they have an extra beer.
    3) When greater than 35% of the neighboring houses have had their electricity shut off due to not paying their electric bills.
    2) When you finally get fed up enough to call the cops only to learn they are too afraid to venture into your neighborhood after dark.
    1) When you are feeling extremely wired and look up and notice a dozen or so syringes are sticking from your ceiling just above your favorite chair.

    Bonus round: When you wake up one morning next to your beautiful wife and realize she is only 12-years-old.

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  24. 24
    ray pepper says:

    relatively easy…here is a few more observations you should look out for:

    When the bus stop has police cars parked there before the buses drop off.
    When no one would rob the candy lady because they know she packin’.
    When you call a pizza delivery and they ask you “when are you coming to pick the pizza up”.
    When the local Church has a fence with spikes around the parking lot.

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  25. 25
    David Losh says:

    This isn’t the same as the 1970s. There are a lot of things that will change communities that mostly have to do with what the banks do with the inventory they are holding off market. If there is a wave of foreclosures many communities will lose the integrity they currently enjoy.

    At the same time, those neighborhoods with high equity positions should be safer. Neighborhoods with the highest per cent of properties owned free, and clear should hold up better than those that are leveraged to the hilt. That’s one of the reasons I have concerns about town homes. They are about 10 years old, still have mortgages, have probably been refinanced to lower rates, and will continue to lose value.

    I would look for grand mother’s house in a grand mother neighborhood. In my opinion that is the safest long term bet.

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  26. 26
    David Losh says:

    RE: Colonel Sanders @ 18

    We have a Global Economic Open Thread. Everything you have mentioned has been discussed there into the ground.

    Scotsman’s world view is extremely conservative, pun intended, compared to the links he uses to substantiate his claims of impending doom.

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  27. 27
    The Tim says:

    It seems like a lot of the commenters here didn’t read the question. It’s not “how do I tell if a neighborhood is shady?” It’s “how do I tell if a neighborhood is in decline?”

    The current state of a neighborhood is easy to ascertain. The trend of the quality of life in a neighborhood—is it getting worse, or getting better—is a bit harder to determine.

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  28. 28
    Colonel Sanders says:

    By Ross Jordan @ 19

    The US dollar is the *worst* currency, except for all the others.

    Chinese yuan as a reserve currency? You want a communist government controlled non free floating currency as reserve? Back to pound sterling? Back to gold? Russian Ruble? The (crashing) Euro? The (20 year declining) Yen, The Canadian dollar (which Iceland has hinted they might use – it’s probably the best of the bunch, but not a large currency).

    Petroleum settlements is important, but Iran is a relatively small part of that market, and and even smaller part of the overall market. Other than perhaps gold, USD remains the best of a bad bunch. The reserve currency is USD because more people across the world distrust it the least, not because of what big countries choose.

    “A new study from the Brookings Institution suggests that in the long run, the ascendance of the yuan to reserve-currency standing is likely.”
    http://blogs.reuters.com/macroscope/2012/02/08/china-renminbi-as-reserve-currency-yuan-a-bet/

    There are two major petroleum bourses; the New York Mercantile Exchange (NYMEX) in New York City, and the International Petroleum Exchange (IPE) in London & Atlanta. Both bourses are controlled by US corporations (NYMEX is owned by a conglomerate including BP, Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley).

    Iran’s oil bourse traded $1.4 billion from Jan to Feb 2012. Iran has 9.3% of the world’s oil reserves and represents 5% of global oil production. So, yes, this is but a small fraction of the total volume traded.

    However, considering that powerful factions such as the IMF, World Bank, China, Russia, and India all openly seek an end to US dollar petrodollar and reserve status, and great strides have been taken to curb the dollar in their transactions, it is only a matter of time before faith in the US dollar falls and the momentum of this effect snowballs and crashes the debt-loaded currency. Why else would the central banks of China, Russia and India be purchasing gold the last several years?

    No country holding US dollars (roughly 65% of all central bank holdings, worldwide) will want to be the one holding the bag when the currency crashes. All it will take is a few small steps to unleash the avalanche. Look at the size of the players involved.

    Taking this up a notch, when one examines the intentions of the central bankers behind UN Agenda 21, it becomes clear that UN Agenda 21 is the framework by which to mold the political, social, and economic landscape after a US dollar crash has taken place. In other words, central bankers (note that these folks likely have partial ownership in the NYMEX and IPE bourses) welcome a system reboot as it will usher in a more stable world and regional structure that they will benefit from, for the very long term.

    Valuable resources for drawing this conclusion are: Limits to Growth (published by the Club of Rome), The First Global Revolution (published by the Club of Rome) and the Crisis of Democracy (published by the Trilateral Commission). Read them, if you have not already.

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  29. 29
    The Tim says:

    RE: Colonel Sanders @ 28 – Please stop posting under different names and different emails. Every time you post with a new name or new email it requires me to manually approve your comment, which is both annoying and time-consuming.

    Quoting from the comment policy which is linked right between the comment box and the submit button:

    We ask that you pick one name and stick with it. Changing names every few days or weeks is annoying to other people trying to participate in the community, and it’s more unnecessary administrative work for me. If you are found to be changing names, your comments may be deleted.

    Fair warning.

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  30. 30
    Colonel Sanders says:

    By The Tim @ 29:

    RE: Colonel Sanders @ 28 – Please stop posting under different names and different emails. Every time you post with a new name or new email it requires me to manually approve your comment, which is both annoying and time-consuming.

    Quoting from the comment policy which is linked right between the comment box and the submit button:

    We ask that you pick one name and stick with it. Changing names every few days or weeks is annoying to other people trying to participate in the community, and it’s more unnecessary administrative work for me. If you are found to be changing names, your comments may be deleted.

    Fair warning.

    Apologies for wasting your valuable time. I hope the quality of my posts makes up for it.

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  31. 31
    Jonness says:

    RE: The Tim @ 27 – On a more serious note, we can’t even agree on what indicators are meaningful to or indicative of short term future price trends. How are we going to agree on a meaningful way to measure whether a neighborhood will decline in the future?

    After I bought, I realized the neighborhood was in decline, and I sold about two years later.

    Obviously, the neighborhood did not go to heck in a handbasket in 2 years. Most likely, the poster failed to perform due diligence prior to getting giddy and buying the house. Shortly after moving in, he realized, the neighborhood was not as nice as he originally believed.

    So my best advice is perform due diligence prior to buying. Too many people buy with their emotions as opposed to using logic. Learn from your costly mistake, and don’t repeat it. Most of all, spend as much time as possible in the home and in the neighborhood prior to making a purchase offer. Ask as many questions about what you might be stepping into from as many people as possible.

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  32. 32
    David S says:

    Change is a tough one to see sometimes. Often it depends on the rate of change. If the change is slower and more subtle, spread out over a decade it might go un-noticed.

    One day I noticed the grade school children were using more profanity than I remembered three years prior. Foreclosure rates and empty housing units picked up significantly in three years. The number of rats spotted ticked up significantly.

    So to answer your question Tim, I think the time scale or rate of declination of a neighborhood’s quality is going to have the most impact on whether or not you can see it changing and not the actual signs themselves. Easier to miss the trend on the decade scale than seeing the same signs on the three year trend.

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  33. 33

    RE: Scot B. @ 1

    This Came from a Building Contractor’s Mouth

    The best way to find out if the building contractor will charge way too much is look at their car, if its a shiny new large truck watch out, if its an old station wagon with scratches and years use….now there’s the best contractor to hire…

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  34. 34

    RE: Peter Witting @ 2
    There’s One Flaw in Your Allegation, Besides Lack of Reference Rationale

    FCs are caused by illnesses, layoffs and divorces….believe me, its equally distributed throughout Seattle, no special neighborhoods. I hear from past SB reports though that banks tend to hold off selling FC stock in richer neighborhoods to give the illusion and yes, price declines in richer neighborhood units hurt banks’ pocket books far more per unit as they press prices downward, so its logical.

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  35. 35

    RE: Ira Sacharoff @ 13

    Look for Business Turnover and Lease Signs

    Empty buildings too. LA Fitness takes over a lot of the excess lease and empty grocery stores from what I see; but let’s face it, Golds Gym is going away and LA Fitness will too….anything that is a luxury and not a necessity is suspect and won’t last long IMO….

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  36. 36

    RE: Colonel Sanders @ 18

    North of I-90 is Immune?

    And I’ve got a bridge I can sell ya…

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  37. 37
    No Name Guy says:

    Talk to the folks that live there, period.

    Take a walk around the ‘hood on a sunny day. If you see folks out in their yards, a quick “hi, how’s it going. Hey I’m thinking of moving into this neighborhood, care to provide me any insights?”

    I’ve been in my place approaching 17 years – I could tell you what it was like in the mid 90’s, mid aughts and today.

    In my case, I’d say my part of Lynnwood is “stable” – what you see is what it has been, more or less, since I’ve been there. Neither haughty nor trashy – basically decent working folks.

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  38. 38
    ARDELL says:

    Elementary School – % on Free Lunch – increasing or decreasing?

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  39. 39
    ARDELL says:

    RE: softwarengineer @ 36

    1,000 days and nights of SOLD property in King County as reported via the mls system not counting AT Courthouse steps activity or other outside of the mls transactions.

    North of I-90 – 13% of all sales were Bank Owned
    South of I-90 – 39% of all sales were Bank Owned

    North of I-90 – 10% of all sales were Short Sales
    South of I-90 – 17% of all sales were Short Sales

    One might say that the Short Sale stats being closer together is a positive sign, but no. An area’s ability to sell short as a means of foreclosure avoidance is a sign of area strength.

    North of I-90 had 23% “distressed” property sales, of which 42% were able to sell short vs end up in foreclosure.

    South of I-90 had 56% “distressed” property sales, of which 31% were able to sell short vs end up in foreclosure.

    North of I-90 “immune”?…no. Different?…yes.

    Required Disclosure: Above Stats not compiled, verified or published by The Northwest Multiple Listing Service.

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  40. 40
    Peter Witting says:

    RE: softwarengineer @ 34

    But I wasn’t referencing anything to do with foreclosures specifically, SWE. I was making a general observation based on personal experience about leading indicators of a neighborhood that might be in decline.

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  41. 41
    ARDELL says:

    RE: softwarengineer @ 34

    Drop the “equally distributed” BS…because it just is not true, and you have repeated that numerous times regardless of actual facts presented.

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  42. 42

    RE: ARDELL @ 39
    Good info, Ardell. What you have stated in the past is that there is no one single Seattle area market. What happens in Houghton is entirely different than what happens in Skyway. It’s very true, but it’s also true that , while there is more poverty and crummy neighborhoods south of I-90, there are also different markets south of I-90 and north. Mountlake Terrace has more short sale listings and foreclosures than Greenlake. What happens in Sea-Tac is entirely different than what happens along Cascadia in Mount Baker or in Fauntleroy.
    It’s such a weird market, overall. Five years ago, prices were going up everywhere in the Seattle area, south of I-90 and north alike, and crummier neighborhoods were actually rising more. That was a bubble, and it changed. What’s happening now won’t stay the same either. But I don’t know what will happen.

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  43. 43
    Mike says:

    There is certainly a lagging indicator effect, but the direction of school test scores may be useful. If you focus on elementry schools the feeder areas are small enough that they are probably a reasonable proxy for the general area. Office of Superintendent report cards are a great source of that data, with the option to see historical info going back serveral years:

    http://reportcard.ospi.k12.wa.us/Summary.aspx?groupLevel=District&schoolId=1&reportLevel=State&year=2010-11

    LOTS of other factors will be involved in what direction test scores are moving over time, but you can also gleen a fair amount of demographic data from the OSI pages as well. I’m pretty sure agents are not allowed to help you redline an area, and liberal Seattle would rather it not be discussed, but the data itself is just data and you can apply your own biases and prejudices about what direction the area feeding an elementry is going in. OSI is probably one of the most readily available sources of “predictive” or at least trend based information though.

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  44. 44
    MichaelB says:

    How can you tell if a neighborhood is on the way down?

    1. Public school is trending down
    2. Military base population is expanding
    3. Crime rates are increasing
    4. Percentage of homes being upgraded / remodeled – Are other people investing?
    5. Number of homes with cars on the lawn is increasing
    6. Number of kids wearing pants half way down their ass and acting like gang bangers
    7. Number of payday loan shops increasing
    8. Number of families on food stamps increasing
    9. Gang graffiti increasing – saw a big increase in Everett from 2006 onward – http://nwgangs.com/western-wa-gangs.html

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  45. 45
    ARDELL says:

    RE: Mike @ 43

    Actually “Redlining” is a lender prohibited practice. The Agent prohibited practice is the opposite…”Steering” to vs away from.

    Eliminating Financial Services within a “Redlined” area is prohibited for banks and financial institutions.

    “Steering” home buying clients to an area that has more “like-kind people” is the agent violation.

    The NAR has kool-aided the issue so as to promote selling anything to anyone at anytime…as Brokerages would like all agents to do. There is no law against telling people where the good and bad areas are…as long as you are not changing your tune based on who the client is and is not along protected class lines. You can’t be two-faced about it depending on who is asking the question.

    There is no law against an agent or even full Brokerages working only in areas that meet a certain minimum standard. There is a law against Financial Institutions refusing to have bank branches and financial services by imposing that same minimum standard.

    The Agent needs to stay away from “Steering” and “Blockbusting”. Lenders: “Redlining”.

    The main reason an agent is told to say “oh, I really couldn’t say” is to promote maximum sales for the Brokerage. Never pay a buyer’s agent who wears duct tape on their mouth about anything that is important to the home buying process.

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  46. 46
    ARDELL says:

    RE: Ira Sacharoff @ 42

    You are correct that one can’t say never or always…but it is also true that if you draw a line in the sand before sifting for “gems”, there will be higher odds of finding more of them on one side of the line than the other. Neither has NONE. But the odds improve in the area that is known to have more of them.

    For local folks…not so important. For relocating home buyers…HUGELY important. There has to be some answers, and asking the neighbors is not the answer.

    I like this strategy. When you pick a house to buy (assuming you are not using a savvy agent or one at all) call to see 3 other homes with three other listing agents of homes both nearby and a bit away from it. Tell those 3 agents that you are about to make an offer on X home, but wanted to see their listing first to be sure. Those 3 agents who want to sell you their listing vs your making an offer on “the subject home” will tell you every bad thing there is to know about the house you are about to make an offer on that is not their listing. Works pretty well. :)

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  47. 47
    The Tim says:

    By MichaelB @ 44:

    How can you tell if a neighborhood is on the way down?

    9. Gang graffiti increasing – saw a big increase in Everett from 2006 onward – http://nwgangs.com/western-wa-gangs.html

    RE: MichaelB @ 44 – If you’re going to continue this weird obsession with attempting to troll me based on where I bought my home, you should at least put in some real effort. Everett is not a neighborhood, and that link doesn’t give any quantitative information about gang graffiti trends. Troll fail.

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  48. 48
    ChrisM says:

    RE: Jonness @ 31 – Most likely, the poster failed to perform due diligence prior to getting giddy and buying the house.

    Hi Jonness. You win the prize, as I wrote the original e-mail. You are correct. I had relied on a buyer’s agent. Knowing what I know now, the buyers agent screwed me over big time. But at no time was I giddy…

    There’s a thread on patrick.net on how to find a good real estate agent, and the advice there isn’t very good. I’ve raised that topic here, and not found any insightful advice. I’m still unclear on how to find a good agent.

    So… someone off the street, looking to buy a house – they can’t rely on their agent, they don’t even know how to select an agent. What to do?

    I’ve learned so much in the past five years (not that I wanted to!), and still I’m unclear on if I can even evaluate a neighborhood for the next 5-20 years.

    Those advocating purchasing a place for the next 30 years – how do you evaluate the neighborhood?

    Tim was correct – the majority of responses were unhelpful – obviously I know how to tell if an area is a POS *today* – what I’m concerned about is 5-25 years in the future.

    I now wonder if renting is a more reasonable action than purchasing a place, since I can’t tell if (for instance) the zoning will change and a low-income apartment gets built next door.

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  49. 49
    ChrisM says:

    RE: MichaelB @ 44http://nwgangs.com/rest-in-peace.html

    MichaelB – this seems to be a site promoting gangs. If you think I’m incorrect, why the RIP page?

    How is this supposed to be helpful? I’ve personally painted out “taggings” aka vandalism, and as far as I’m concerned, the fewer gangbangers the better. No need whatsoever for a gangbanger RIP page.

    “Suspect: Shot by U.S. Marshals” – cry me a river.

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  50. 50
    John Bailo says:

    There have been a number of articles about the coming population declines…especially in cities.

    In the state of Oregon, deaths now outnumber births. Washington is headed down that road as immigration ground to a halt starting in 2006.

    That will mean the potential for many abandoned homes possibly in random patterns. Seattle is also a place where there are many dissociated adults — people with no immediate family, but lots of age contemporary friends. There could be a huge dieoff in the next 20 years, leaving vast swaths of homes uninhabited.

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  51. 51
    nwbackpacker says:

    This is a really tough/good question…one more item I don’t think has been mentioned would be where improvements/development is being planned by the city and others. New rail lines, updated schools, etc would be an indicator of positive change.

    Also, does an increasing yoy Great Schools score mean anything? Not sure how much folks trust that…

    Don’t laugh at me but climate change could have a regional effect and change things for the better/worse. I’m not aware of any ‘Florida-like’ danger. Maybe it’ll get warmer/sunnier ;-)

    Here’s my speculative guess about the future: The trend here and elsewhere will be the rich get richer (shocking!) and everyone else gets poorer. This will mean the top ~10% (or less) of neighborhoods will improve, the next 20% hopefully will hold steady, the next 30% will go into decline and the last 40%…it could get ugly as far as schools, etc. Basically society loses in this scenario and you would want to live in a really good neighborhood or just rent.

    Hopefully I’m just pessimistic and none of this comes true.

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  52. 52
    Scotsman says:

    RE: nwbackpacker @ 51

    I think your guess about an ongoing bifurcation is pretty good. Poorer areas will continue to deteriorate while solid middle class or upper class areas will hold. There isn’t likely to be much real wage growth over the coming decade so it will be harder for the lower tiers to hold on in terms of maintenance, let alone improvements. And governmentnt will have less to spend on improvements and services.

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  53. 53
    David Losh says:

    RE: Scotsman @ 52RE: nwbackpacker @ 51

    Here’s an observation I have about the lower tier. I know people think my fascination with the Central Area, or White Center is race related, but it has more to do with community.

    Many who live in what you call poverty are actually very frugal. You’ll find many families live together. Many people pay off the family home. Those junk cars are all paid for. There is a thriving shadow economy, and in many cases the dollars remain in the community.

    At the same time those people with big mortgages, big car payments, student loans, and kids in preschool, to the best scools, don’t have a pot to pass in. They may live in the same neighborhoods, but they aren’t a part of the community. My bet is that those who you call living in poverty will survive much better than those paying debt service.

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  54. 54

    By softwarengineer @ 33:

    RE: Scot B. @ 1

    This Came from a Building Contractor’s Mouth

    The best way to find out if the building contractor will charge way too much is look at their car, if its a shiny new large truck watch out, if its an old station wagon with scratches and years use….now there’s the best contractor to hire…

    I think it works the same way with real estate agents. ;-)

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  55. 55

    By softwarengineer @ 34:

    I hear from past SB reports though that banks tend to hold off selling FC stock in richer neighborhoods to give the illusion and yes, price declines in richer neighborhood units hurt banks’ pocket books far more per unit as they press prices downward, so its logical.

    I don’t have data to back this up, but I think the banks are better at processing short sales in the better neighborhoods. Larger loans get more attention.

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  56. 56
    SG says:

    Aren’t parts of Bellevue south of I-90? :)

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 0

  57. 57
    Scotsman says:

    RE: SG @ 56

    Yup.. Issaquah, too. Kiss ‘em goodbye.

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  58. 58
    Blurtman says:

    RE: David Losh @ 53 – In the field of immunology, it is actually a bad thing if you live in too aseptic an environment. Better to get out and roll in the dirt. Some of the best food starts out as “peasant food.” That’s not to say that people with money have no soul. Why, just look at Mitt Romney. And look at the clever wordsmithing of those 1%’ers. Substituting “dodgy” for “fraudulent” and “criminal.” Brilliant!

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  59. 59
    Pegasus says:

    Simply lie down in the road and see if anyone stops to help you……..

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  60. 60
    David Losh says:

    There are two sets of 1%s. The very rich, and the very poor. Well, you would have to define poor, because many people living in poverty have a better lifestyle than those that are on the tread mill, pun intended, of debt.

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  61. 61
    Jonness says:

    RE: ChrisM @ 48 – Chris:

    I’ve worked with about a dozen RE agents over the course of my life. The number is high because I kicked most of them to the curb prior to completion of a deal. From my perspective, most agents don’t give a rat’s rear end about their clients. They pretend they do, but the RE sales commission model is horribly flawed, such that it makes it too powerful of a lure to screw the client. Man have they tried to rip me off! The nicer they seem, and the more they smile, the more crap goes on behind my back. It’s like a used car lot out there.

    However, from my experience, it is possible to find a good agent who will work in your best interest. But you have to do some serious weeding out along the way. So don’t be afraid to hurt anybody’s feelings. You are the guy forking out the $10K commission, not them.

    I really have no way of telling if a neighborhood will decline or not. I tend to look over each neighborhood extremely well and spend a whole lot of time in it prior to considering a house there. I also make sure I talk to as many neighbors as possible. I’m always surprised at how much good info I can glean out of the neighbors.

    But my main method of knowing which neighborhoods are right and which houses represent good values is to look at tons of each and compare and contrast them. I know that’s what people think agents are for, but the truth is, you have to do the work yourself. Some people get lucky, but IMO, for most people to get the right deal, they have to wade in up to their necks and muck around in the mud with all the fish. Only then can they truly know if the deal makes sense or not.

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  62. 62
    Jonness says:

    By Kary L. Krismer @ 54:

    I think it works the same way with real estate agents. ;-)

    I agree, as long as they’ve been around long enough to learn the ropes.

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  63. 63

    By Scotsman @ 57:

    RE: SG @ 56

    Yup.. Issaquah, too. Kiss ‘em goodbye.

    Most of Mercer Island is also south of I-90. Once Paul Allen realizes this, he’ll be sure to flee to Lynnwood.

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  64. 64
    David Losh says:

    RE: ChrisM @ 48RE: Jonness @ 31

    I’m the first to agree that Real Estate agents have lost a lot of credibility. Thousands, or millions of people entered Real Estate for the commissions. It’s a stupid way to make a living.

    Some agents are active in the business of Real Estate investing. They are some times better informed, but many times don’t care about driving some one around to a hundred homes.

    You will never have the same experience in a neighborhood as a Real Estate agent who works there.

    What I suggest is to find a neighborhood, or community. Spend time there, go to the community council meetings, get to know the business owners, and pull some city stats on building permits, crime, and schools. Go to open houses, and see who has the most listings. Meet those agents who are working the neighborhood for more than two years. Interview the agents. Find some one who is a fit for you.

    Most people, buyers, and sellers, don’t spend enough time on the agent interview process. You should know your product, you should know your community, but the agents that work there will always see more, and solicit more product in the future. There are very few good Real Estate agents, but they are out there working, and you deserve the best.

    If more people would concentrate on paying good agents, rather than the broad scatter approach of hiring any one who looks good, maybe we could weed out some of the rif raf.

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  65. 65
    ray pepper says:

    “but many times don’t care about driving some one around to a hundred homes. ”

    Thats ME !! Thats ME! Not only would I NOT show anyone 100 homes I surely would NEVER place them in my car to show them even 1. I require Buyers to have driven the neighborhood prior and have done their DD before even engaging with a home tour.

    With the all the information that exists today to the consumer they would have to be VERY uninformed to let a real estate Agent do anything more then open doors and prepare the P&S agreement. If you are still relying on real estate agents for advice, after being a Seattle Bubble reader, then you are truly without hope..

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  66. 66

    RE: ray pepper @ 65 – Some people value their time more. Those that don’t can hire you. It’s a choice.

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  67. 67

    By ray pepper @ 65:

    ” If you are still relying on real estate agents for advice, after being a Seattle Bubble reader, then you are truly without hope..

    It’s amazing to me how someone could be a real estate agent and actually think that. How could you possibly discount the value of your own experience so much?

    Seriously, while Seattle Bubble covers a lot of good topics, what has it taught people here about the different types of siding, or water issues in crawlspaces, or types of roofing, etc.?

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  68. 68
    wreckingbull says:

    RE: David Losh @ 53 – Debt slavery just as common for the poor as well. For the rich(er), debt slavery may be in the form of home loans, car loans, student loans, and credit card debt.

    For the poor, it rears its head in the form of payday loans. Once someone is in the payday loan cycle, paying (much worse than) mob interest rates, they have little hope of breaking out.

    If there is one thing we can do to help the poor, it is to enable them the ability or desire to use real banks. Perhaps this will require some legislation. The lobby for these payday loan centers is fierce, and it will be difficult to get any reform, but it needs to happen.

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  69. 69

    RE: wreckingbull @ 68 – Payday loan reform is sort of like gun control. The anti-position people are so rabid and uninformed that they come up with solutions that make no sense and actually harm people.

    I agree it’s a trap people can fall into, but there are times where it’s the best solution.

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  70. 70
    ray pepper says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 67

    because Kary, I understand my role in real estate. While most do NOT! I will offer personal opinions when asked but furthermore advise the client its just an opinion. Their DD should supercede anyones “opinion” on what they should do with THEIR money.

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  71. 71

    RE: ray pepper @ 70 – But to do DD they need to have someone point out potential issues. For example, has side sewer scoping even ever been mentioned here?

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  72. 72
    ray pepper says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 71

    well of course Kary…Sewer Scoping is important… and when asked what could go wrong an Agent should ALSO explain these to seller or buyer along with another 1000 variables:

    The Buyer/Borrower:

    Does not tell the truth on the loan application.
    Submits incorrect information to the lender.
    Has recent late payments on credit report.
    Found out about additional debt after loan application.
    Borrower or Co-Borrower loses job.
    Income verification lower than what was stated on loan application.
    Overtime income not allowed by underwriter for qualifying.
    Applicant makes large purchase on credit before closing.
    Illness, injury, divorce or other financial setback during process.
    Lacks motivation.
    Gift donor changes mind.
    Cannot locate divorce decree.
    Cannot locate petition or discharge of bankruptcy.
    Cannot locate tax returns.
    Cannot locate bank statements.
    Difficulty in obtaining verification of rent.
    Interest rate increases and borrower no longer qualifies.
    Loan program changes with higher rates, points and fees.
    Child support not disclosed on application.
    Borrower is a foreign national.
    Bankruptcy within the last 2 years.
    Mortgage payment is double the previous housing payment.
    Borrower/co-borrower does not have steady 2-year employment history.
    Borrower brings in handwritten pay stubs.
    Borrower switches to job requiring probation period just before closing.
    Borrower switches to job from salary to 100% commission income.
    Borrower/co-borrower/seller dies.
    Family members or friends do not like the home that the buyer chooses.
    Buyer is too picky about property in price range they can afford.
    Buyer feels the house is misrepresented.
    Veterans DD214 form (Discharge Papers) not available.
    Buyer has spent money needed for down payment and closing costs and comes up short at closing.
    Buyer does not properly “paper trail” additional money that comes from gifts, loans, etc.
    Does not bring cashier’s check to title company for closing costs and down payment.

    The Seller:

    Loses motivation to sell (job transfer does not go through, reconciles marriage, etc.)
    Cannot find a suitable replacement property.
    Will not allow appraiser inside home.
    Will not allow inspectors inside home in a timely manner.
    Removes property from the premises the buyer believed was included.
    Is unable to clear up liens against their property – short on cash to close.
    Did not own 100% of property as previously disclosed.
    Thought getting partners signatures were “no problem,” but they were.
    Leaves town without giving anyone Power of Attorney.
    Delays the projected move-out date.
    Did not complete the repairs agreed to in contract.
    Seller’s home goes into foreclosure during process.
    Misrepresents info about home/neighborhood to the buyer.
    Does not disclose all hidden or unknown defects and they are subsequently discovered.
    Builder miscalculates completion date of new home.
    Builder has too many cost overruns.
    Final inspection on new home does not pass.
    Seller does not appear for closing and won’t sign papers.

    The Realtor(s):

    Have no client control over buyers or sellers.
    Delays access to property for inspection and appraisals.
    Unfamiliar with their client’s financial position – do they have enough equity to sell, etc.
    Does not get completed paperwork to the lender in time.
    Inexperienced in this type of property transaction.
    Takes unexpected time off during transaction and can’t be reached.
    Jerks around other parties to the transaction – has huge ego.
    Does not do sufficient homework on their clients or the property and wastes everyone’s time.

    The Property:

    County will not approve septic system or well.
    Termite report reveals substantial damage and seller is not willing to fix or repair.
    Home was misrepresented as to size and condition.
    Home is destroyed prior to closing.
    Home not structurally sound.
    Home is uninsurable for homeowners insurance.
    Property incorrectly zoned.
    Portion of home sits on neighbor’s property.
    Unique home and comparable properties for appraisal difficult to find.

    The Closing Agent/Title Company:

    Fails to notify lender/agents of unsigned or unreturned documents.
    Fails to obtain information from beneficiaries, lien holders, insurance companies, or lenders in a timely manner.
    Lets principals leave town without getting all necessary signatures.
    Loses or incorrectly prepares paperwork.
    Does not pass on valuable information quickly enough.
    Does not coordinate well, so that many items can be done simultaneously.
    Does not bend the rules on small problems.
    Does not find liens or any title problems until the last minute.
    The Appraiser:

    Is not local and misunderstands the market.
    Is too busy to complete the appraisal on schedule.
    No comparable sales are available.
    Is not on the lender’s “approved list.”
    Makes important mistakes on appraisal and brings in value too low.
    Lender requires a second or “review” appraisal.
    Inspectors:

    Pest inspectors too busy to schedule inspection when needed.
    Pest inspectors too picky about condition of property, hoping to create work for them.
    Home inspectors not available when needed.
    Inspection reports alarm buyer and sale is cancelled

    It goes on and on Kary………….But in the end………..Its the Buyers/Sellers DD and the Agents are simply facilitators…When you begin to feel you are anymore is when you are OUT of your scope of practice.

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  73. 73
    wreckingbull says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 69 Please don’t lump payday loan centers and the 2nd amendment together. The shotgun in my gun safe does not charge me a 350% APR.

    There are interesting solutions which can be a win for both the consumer and innovative companies who want to challenge the disgusting status quo. I hardly call this ‘rabid’.

    https://www.zestcash.com/ is an example. A bank specializing in consumer service to cultures who traditionally rely on payday loans is another.

    Legislation may not even be needed. All someone has to do is find a way to offer the consumer a better, fair, deal and still make a profit. I hope this happens and the current payday loan centers wither and die.

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  74. 74

    By wreckingbull @ 73:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 69 Please don’t lump payday loan centers and the 2nd amendment together. The shotgun in my gun safe does not charge me a 350% APR.

    I’m not saying the rights are similar. I’m saying those proposing changes are similar–rabid and uninformed.

    BTW, your shotgun might not charge you 350% interest, but someone charging much more than that for interest probably has a shotgun! ;-)

    Just the fact though that you refer to a 350% interest rate indicates you don’t understand the problem. These are short term unsecured loans to people in great financial difficultly. Of course the interest rate will be high if you annualize it. But which is worse, being charge 350% interest for a week or two, or being evicted from your apartment? Paying 350% interest for a week or two, or having your car repossessed and not being able to go to work? It’s the nominal dollars paid out which is important for the consumer, not the annual interest rate. Some of the protectors of consumers would enact legislation which would leave many consumers homeless, jobless or both.

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  75. 75

    By ray pepper @ 65:

    With the all the information that exists today to the consumer they would have to be VERY uninformed to let a real estate Agent do anything more then open doors and prepare the P&S agreement. If you are still relying on real estate agents for advice, after being a Seattle Bubble reader, then you are truly without hope..

    I’m going to go back and re-quote what you said, and quote more of it. You weren’t discussing a buyer doing their own due diligence. You were flatly saying that a buyer shouldn’t rely on an agent for advice. Maybe you’re confusing advice with supplying an end result. But the agent should advise a client as to what issues they see as being relevant for a particular property (or a particular buyer if the client is a seller).

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  76. 76
    MichaelB says:

    RE: The Tim @ 47

    I wasn’t trying to provide a statistical analysis to prove that gangs have increased in Everett over the last 10 years. That would be like trying to prove the sun sets in the West. I thought I made some valid points in general and happen to know the Everett area pretty well and saw a lot of gang graffiti pop up around 2006 onward. Just like others comment negatively on Rainier Valley, West Seattle, Tacoma, South of I-90, etc…. You don’t seem too concerned about those comments… Hmmm…truth hurts buddy.

    BTW – believing the market has bottomed based on some BS derivative you came up with cracks me up! Keep hoisting the RedFin / Real Estate Agent flag! The Seattle Bubble is only about 1/2 deflated and one day soon you will be able to buy a median home in Everett for around $150K or less. That’s what people earning $50k a year can afford….

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  77. 77
    David Losh says:

    RE: ray pepper @ 72RE: ray pepper @ 70RE: ray pepper @ 65

    Have you ever worked as a Real Estate agent Ray?

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  78. 78
    wreckingbull says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 74 – Kary, I don’t want to get in a match of accusing each other of not understanding the problem, but your example of using a payday lender to get out of a one-time jam is a very uncommon use case. Typically people get sucked in and it becomes a cycle and even a positive feedback loop.

    Can’t pay the bills, get a loan. When you get paid next week, the loan payment is deducted and then you can’t pay the bills. Rinse, lather, repeat. This is why APR is indeed a good measurement tool.

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  79. 79

    RE: wreckingbull @ 78

    Note what I said above:

    By Kary L. Krismer @ 69:

    I agree it’s a trap people can fall into, but there are times where it’s the best solution.

    Remember, when I was a bankruptcy attorney I represented a lot of debtors, so I have some understanding of what they’re going through.

    So if I had to sum up, I would say the payday lenders are a necessary evil, but that we do need some better controls on them. Those controls shouldn’t be so tight, however, that they make the legitimate uses of their services impossible. That’s the problem I have with a lot of the opponents.

    You didn’t like the gun control nuts analogy, so here’s another one. Back when they were passing the poorly written distressed property law one of the legislators said something to the effect that the people would be better off being foreclosed than to take a deal from a scammer. That simply is not true! People who want to protect other people want to control their lives, even though they don’t understand the details of those lives.

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  80. 80
    ARDELL says:

    “…people would be better off being foreclosed than to take a deal from a scammer. That simply is not true!”

    1) The owners who were taking a deal from the scammer did not agree…especially when it went sideways…as it often did. They complained in droves.

    2) The ones you reference who where perfectly happy with “a scammer”…who do you think they were scamming Kary, if not the owner? The lineholder for one.

    3) After scamming the lienholder into thinking the highest that could be had for the property was $200,000, they had already lined up a buyer to scam to tell the lowest was $260,000 so they could pocket the $60,000.

    Once you agree the legislation was to block “a scammer”, using your own words, who do you think it is OK for that scammer to scam?

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  81. 81
    Pegasus says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 79 – Payday lenders…..worse than the Mafia or is it the same people operating under a different name made legal by bought and paid for politicians?….Kary defends the Kleptocracy once again. We used to have laws that prevented that kind of abuse of the poor….now we promote it as a “necessary evil” while the poor are financially raped over and over again because it is for their own good and they can’t fight back. We need to bring back debtor prisons, too, to teach those lowlifes how to behave and pay their masters.

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  82. 82
    ARDELL says:

    RE: Pegasus @ 81

    They were called Usury Laws and had a cap on interest rates that could be charged. They were State to State vs national, and the operations just moved to States without them. We need a Federal Usury law so abusers can’t just jump from State to State to get around them.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usury

    I grew up with The Mafia…many legitimate businesses today charge more than they did.

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  83. 83
    Pegasus says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 74 – Which is worse….being charged 350% while the lender has very little risk because he gets the money before you even get your paycheck or being charged 12% for taking a risk on you and the lender waits in line for your payment along with the rest of your creditors? Hmmmmm What a difficult question. In the old days they did not get to front run your paycheck. You just knew that if you didn’t pay they would break your leg or an arm. Now they are breaking your back and you will never recover. Everyone seems to recognize that except for you, once again.

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  84. 84
    Pegasus says:

    RE: ARDELL @ 82 – Absolutely. They are charging more than the Mafia and at least the Mafia had a heart when it came to collections. Nowadays it doesn’t matter if you are a mother of three who can’t pay or some drug abuser. It’s all the same in collections. The state usury laws got sideswiped when they passed a federal law stating that the state usury laws do not apply to banks that label themselves with the words “national”, these banks have been able to offer loans above the state usury limit.

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  85. 85

    By ARDELL @ 80:

    “…people would be better off being foreclosed than to take a deal from a scammer. That simply is not true!”

    1) The owners who were taking a deal from the scammer did not agree…especially when it went sideways…as it often did. They complained in droves.

    2) The ones you reference who where perfectly happy with “a scammer”…who do you think they were scamming Kary, if not the owner? The lineholder for one.

    3) After scamming the lienholder into thinking the highest that could be had for the property was $200,000, they had already lined up a buyer to scam to tell the lowest was $260,000 so they could pocket the $60,000.

    Once you agree the legislation was to block “a scammer”, using your own words, who do you think it is OK for that scammer to scam?

    Within 10 days of a foreclosure the only way to keep the property would likely be a bankruptcy. To get $10,000 and avoid a bankruptcy might be a choice many would make, and that an attorney would even advise them to take.

    I could also add that given the timing of passing distressed property law, with hindsight the goal of keeping a property at all cost wasn’t really such a great goal. So the scammers weren’t getting the great deal they thought they were.

    Again, you have to be able to deal with all the different situations, and not prevent people from making choices which might be their best choice simply because you don’t understand their situation.

    BTW, your #1-3 indicates you don’t even understand the situation I’m discussing. We’re talking scams that would either sell for a relatively small amount of cash or stay in the house for a period longer, not short sale fraud. Off the top of my head I don’t even think short sale fraud was covered by the distressed property law.

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  86. 86

    RE: ARDELL @ 82 – There are so many exceptions to usury laws that it’s hard to find a usury violation. You don’t even have to move to a different state, like credit card companies did, you can simply be a certain type of entity or certain type of business.

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  87. 87

    RE: Pegasus @ 83 – Once again you show a very limited understanding of the world. Corporations bad is not an analysis. It’s just ignorance, at best. You also show you’re easily convinced by those trying to push an agenda.

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  88. 88

    By Pegasus @ 83:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 74 – Which is worse….being charged 350% while the lender has very little risk because he gets the money before you even get your paycheck.

    How about understanding what you’re talking about before you post? Oh wait, that would prevent you from posting.

    They don’t get paid before they do. The payment is due when they get paid. If they don’t pay them, then they go to court. Hardly makes them worse than the mafia.

    “Corporations bad” is not an analysis, but that’s as far as you ever seem to get. It’s a rather ignorant view of the world.

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  89. 89

    By Pegasus @ 84:

    The state usury laws got sideswiped when they passed a federal law stating that the state usury laws do not apply to banks that label themselves with the words “national”, these banks have been able to offer loans above the state usury limit.

    Just another example of you know knowing what you’re talking about. Quit pretending that you’re a lawyer and spouting nonsense.

    You really think that you can walk into Bank of America and get a home loan or car loan (non-business) for more than 12% without them violating our state’s usury laws?

    You might want to read the state’s usury laws to find the exceptions to the laws. Here’s a hint: Payday loan companies are not national banks.

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  90. 90
    Pegasus says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 87 – No ignorance here, at least on my part…..Payday loans charge huge interest rates(close to 400% on some loans in Wa.) and prey mainly upon the poor and minorities. That’s a rather handsome return when you sit on their payment check that is cashed on their payday. Big risk there? I think not. Interest rates are at all time lows? Hmmmmmm. Years ago this was not possible or allowed. Most payday loan operations are affiliated with a national bank and yes I am aware that Wa, now has a special law to deal with these perps errr businesses to regulate the abuse. The primary function these operations serve is to separate the poor from their money as fast as possible. thus further depleting them of their few assets. Has there been some occasions where this system has benefited some? Of course but the main function of their business plan is to make people dependent upon them scoring maximum fees and interest. The state even tries to prevent some of that by annual limitations now because of the prior abuse. It was a huge “growth” industry. It is so typical that you would promote these operations as a “necessary evil” as they certainly are part of the Kleptocracy.

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  91. 91

    By Pegasus @ 90:

    Big risk there? I think not..

    Wow! You don’t think that payday loans are risky?

    So let’s see, just on this topic you: (1) Incorrectly think national banks are exempt from usury laws; (2) Think payday loans get repaid from a payroll deduction; and now (3) Think that making unsecured loans to people in extreme financial distress is not risky.

    Do the math. Using your 400% rate, the interest charged would be less than $8 per week for each $100 borrowed. That means if it weren’t for their other charges besides interest, that if eight percent of their borrowers defaulted each week, they would lose money.

    BTW, one more thing to add. Like most regulation it often protects the business more than the consumer, and that’s true of some of the regulations I’ve seen, which prevent the industry collectively from making some of the most risky loans.

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  92. 92
    Pegasus says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 89 – I referenced the historical demise of enforcing usury laws on a national level that occurred mainly in the early 1980’s when the banksters got the laws changed while they were dealing with high interest rates that exceeded most usury laws. Something that you are not probably aware of, again. I recall having to sign a statement that my margin loan at a local brokerage was for business purposes and was no longer a personal loan. It was the start of the slippery slope that has caused an almost complete destruction of usury laws across this nation. The public enjoys little to no protection against getting their pockets picked by unscrupulous interest rates and fees.

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  93. 93
    Pegasus says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 91 – Like I said Kary they are either sitting with a postdated check in their hands, have an automatic debit to the account where their paycheck gets deposited or they are able to actually attach their paycheck as a deduction in some cases. Big big risk clown. That sure justifies 400 percent rates doesn’t it because most likely those people are minorities and poor? Bad credit is not a problem…..

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  94. 94

    RE: Pegasus @ 92 – The business loan exception is one of the many state law exceptions.

    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=19.52.080

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  95. 95

    RE: Pegasus @ 93 – Wow, you think getting a post dated check from someone in financial distress is not risky? Quit it! You’re making my side hurt.

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  96. 96
    Pegasus says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 95 – Studies have proven that here in Washington State payday loans were primarily used by minorities and the military. These operations were not even legal in Washington until 1995 when firms like Money Tree lobbied heavily and bought the state’s politicians to allow the abusing to begin. After that the military, recognizing the abuse, got a law passed nationally in 2007 that limited the rate that could be charged to those in the military to an APR of 36 percent. Today there are almost no loans to those in the military here because there are other fish to fry that can be legally charged a 390% APR. There have been many attempts to cap that rate at 36 percent here for all but so far the politicians here like their payola more. Many states have gone to the 36% APR cap in recent years. Wa., in 2009, limited the amount of times the industry could re-lend to the same person in 2010 to eight times in order to slow the abusive industry down. 2010 figures show a dramatic drop in payday loans. Figures from 2009 show how abusive the system was. A drop to a reasonable 36% APR would about close the door on this abusive loan-sharking enterprise.

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  97. 97
    Pegasus says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 95 – If you know when someone’s paycheck gets automatically deposited and you have an authorization to debit electronically that account through various authorizations the same day do you really have a big risk? Nope. Ever wonder why every lender tries to get you to authorize a direct deduction from your account to make a loan payment? It’s called risk reduction for dummies! Statistics have shown because of how the payday industry operates that the default rate is about the same rate as credit cards where the average rate charged is about 15 to 20 percent for non prime credit borrowers. Big difference. 390% or 15% for the same risk? Hmmmmm. Bwahahah! Keep making up stuff to justify the kleptocracy. It’s hilarious! Maybe you should wear a uniform so people can automatically recognize you as a rote defender of the Kleptocracy.

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  98. 98
    One Eyed Man says:

    I have no interest in defending payday lenders in WA, or what kind of regulation is imposed upon them, but it might be of interest to look at some of the actual fee numbers and borrower protections in the WA law re payday loans before concluding that their fee is not proportionate to the risk, or that they are worse than the Mafia.

    The 390% APR on a $500 payday loan is based upon the max legal fee allowed under WA law for a $500 payday loan, which is $75. Assuming that the military limit of 36% APR would yield a fee equal to 10% of the fee for a 390% APR, that fee would be less than $7.50. That’s not much of a fee for me to set up an account for you and process your payment, etc, etc. Anybody out there want to loan me $500 unsecured for two weeks for the princely fee of $7.50? Trust me, I love you, the checks in the mail, and I promise I won’t ___________________ (well, you know).

    I’ll give you a direct withdrawal authorization, but if I need a new toaster, I might open a new account at some other bank and tell you I’d prefer a payment plan of at least 180 days for my $500 loan and under WA law I’ll pay no more than the max additional fee of $25. The Dept of Financial Institutions publication on payday loans says:

    “INSTALLMENT PLAN: Under Washington law if you notify your payday lender, on or before the date your loan is due, that you are unable to pay the loan when it is due, they are required to notify you that you are eligible for an installment plan. If your loan is $400 or less, the installment plan is at least 90 days; if your loan is over $400, the installment plan is at least 180 days. Your payday lender may not charge you a fee to enter into an installment plan. Your payday lender must either return your original check or destroy it if you instruct them to do so. The original ACH authorization is deemed void when you enter into an installment plan. The lender may accept new checks or ACH authorizations consistent with the terms of the installment plan. Your lender may charge you $25.00 if you default during the installment plan.”

    http://dfi.wa.gov/cs/pdf/payday-brochure.pdf

    Assuming that the payday lender is not allowed to charge any interest beyond the $25 additional fee (I didn’t check the statute to see if that’s true), that would make the APR on the 180 day loan something more like 80%. Still extremely high compared to other loans. But then again, if I take a 2 week cash advance on one of my credit cards, their 4% cash advance fee works out to an annualized rate of interest of about 100%. Clearly the 4% fee charged by my credit card company is much better than the 15% fee charged by a payday lender. But then again, if I go to a payday lender I probable either don’t have a credit card or have max’d out my cash withdrawal right. Either way, I’m probably higher risk than someone who can take a cash advance on their credit card.

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  99. 99
    wreckingbull says:

    I am a cold-hearted bastard, but what payday lenders do the the poor absolutely breaks my heart. Simple question for you, Kary. Let’s take you your example of a payday lender being a useful public service to help someone out of a bind. Let’s now assume that said bind occurs twice per year per borrower. Do you think today’s payday lenders would even be close to being profitable using this use case? Hint: No. If people actually used payday lenders the way you say they use them, these lenders would all go out of business.

    The fact is simple. They prey on the revolving borrower.

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  100. 100
    Pegasus says:

    RE: One Eyed Man @ 98 – Another defender of the Kleptocracy arrives to attempt make it all OK to hammer the poor and minorities when exorbitant rates are charged way beyond rates the Mafia used to charge and we are told its a good thing. Sorry but these businesses are being tossed out in other states for the same behavior or they are at least being much more highly regulated in the fees they get to ripoff errrr..charge people with. Here in Washington recent changes in the law made it more difficult for these crooks to stop their real intent which was to make as many people as possible become an indentured slave that needed to roll over their loan every two weeks. The industry was caught misbehaving wasn’t it and of taking unfair advantage. Do you think they are all suddenly are shooting for sainthood now? Nonsense. Once a crook always a crook. Ban these vermin from our state. Excuses are made how somebody might not actually pay them(buys toaster instead) on time and that makes it all OK to ripoff everyone else. Their risk factors are close to the credit card industry who has not yet figured out how to charge us 390% APR for all transactions and normally does not require a direct debit from your account to pay them although they strongly suggest it. Maybe you and Kary can spearhead a movement to jack up everyone’s credit card rate to 390% to make it fair for all. I am sure there are plenty of credit card users who DON’T have direct withdrawals for card payments, who also bought a “toaster” instead and who also have not paid their “minimum due” in a timely manner. That sure seems like a bigger risk to me. Ask Kary where he is buying his Defender of the Kleptocracy uniform and maybe he can pick one up for you at the same time?

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  101. 101
    Pegasus says:

    RE: wreckingbull @ 99 -New law says they get to only do it 8 times per individual. Married I am guessing that makes 16. That law cut their revenues to almost a third of prior years. In 2009 there were actually 241 people who did at least 51 loans at these scam operations. It shows you the kind of skunks that were running those scams and what they were really all about. About 44,000 people in Washington maxed out the eight turns on the loans in 2010. About one out of 12 defaulted(did not pay ON TIME) and about 1 out of ten requested an installment repayment. As to how many that actually never paid the money back and it went to a collector it’s obviously a lot less than the one out of 12 who did not pay on time but for some strange reason the industry and Washington State don’t feel it is necessary to provide that information because it might piss us off even more.

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  102. 102

    RE: Pegasus @ 96 – They won’t loan at 36% because that would be a money losing proposition, especially given the more limited ability to sue people in the military, but even without that it would be a money loser.

    It’s not like it’s 36% profit! Probably even at 400% it’s not 36% profit.

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  103. 103

    By Pegasus @ 97:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 95 – If you know when someone’s paycheck gets automatically deposited and you have an authorization to debit electronically that account through various authorizations the same day do you really have a big risk? Nope. . . . Keep making up stuff to justify the kleptocracy. It’s hilarious! .

    I commented on your post-dated check comment. That was one of three things just in this thread that you were wrong about. That is funny.

    I’m not the one making stuff up. So that’s a fourth thing you are wrong about–just in one thread.

    Wait. A fifth thing you are wrong about. A payroll deduction doesn’t mean no risk. Bankruptcy trumps the deduction.

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  104. 104

    By Pegasus @ 100:

    RE: One Eyed Man @ 98 – Another defender of the Kleptocracy arrives to attempt make it all OK to hammer the poor and minorities when exorbitant rates are charged . . .

    Did it ever occur to you that as a lawyer, OEM also isn’t influenced by the nonsense arguments that influences you? Seriously, if you can’t respond to an argument, you attack with claims that suggest we’re cold hearted. In actual fact, your trying to help the poor is more likely to hurt them because you don’t understand the issues involved or their circumstances.

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  105. 105

    By Pegasus @ 1:

    RE: wreckingbull @ 99 -New law says they get to only do it 8 times per individual. Married I am guessing that makes 16. That law cut their revenues to almost a third of prior years. In 2009 there were actually 241 people who did at least 51 loans at these scam operations. It shows you the kind of skunks that were running those scams and what they were really all about. About 44,000 people in Washington maxed out the eight turns on the loans in 2010. About one out of 12 defaulted(did not pay ON TIME) and about 1 out of ten requested an installment repayment. As to how many that actually never paid the money back and it went to a collector it’s obviously a lot less than the one out of 12 who did not pay on time but for some strange reason the industry and Washington State don’t feel it is necessary to provide that information because it might piss us off even more.

    Hey, I have an idea. There are people that abuse alcohol daily. We should make it illegal!

    Glad to see though that you’re aware of the limitations on how often they can borrow.

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  106. 106
    One Eyed Man says:

    RE: Pegasus @ 100

    In case you missed it, I never said that payday lenders shouldn’t be banned or that they should or shouldn’t be subject to stricter interest limitations. All I did was present the fact that the 36% APR military limit appeared to only yield a fee of about $7.50/ loan, that borrowers already had a right to extend their loans which would lower the APR to some extent, and that payday lenders charged about 4 times as much for a 2 week loan as my credit card company charged for an equivalent cash advance. Why does that simple factual information threaten you so much? It doesn’t mean your opinion is wrong nor does it even mean that I disagreed with or was attacking your opinion.

    But it does mean that your buttons are easy to push and that I think you often present a one sided version of the facts to support your socio-economic theory regarding “kleptocracy” and “banksters” and the corresponding need for additional unspecified regulation to protect the public. There are other opinions with facts and theories to support them, such as those expounded by market libertarians (who I respect even though I often disagree with) that regulation should be kept to a minimum because regulation is an impediment to economic activity and freedom, and markets are the most efficient method of implementing human economic choice.

    IMHO it also means that your claim to being a purveyor of “truth,” is only valid to the extent that you only express, tolerate and respect, facts and information that support your opinion. Your rhetoric, whether you intend it or not, makes it appear that any other facts and information are to be disrespected and denegrated as lies spread by agents of the evil “kleptocracy.” It’s one thing to disagree with those having opposing views, like market libertarians, its another to suppress and/or summarily dismiss facts which may support their opinions.

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  107. 107
    wreckingbull says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @105 – Nice straw man. Bravo!

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  108. 108
    David Losh says:

    RE: One Eyed Man @ 6

    Nice come back, and you did cover the main point. Credit Cards are a thousand times more dangerous than pay day loans, and nothing is ever said about them.

    Let me repeat, nothing is said about credit cards because they are the back bone of our financial markets. Consumer credit makes our world, or global economy go around.

    Should pay day loans be shut down, absolutely. There is no reason for pay day loans, or pawn shops, to be allowed to exist. Commerce should be done by straight business, cash, on cash. If some one wants to sell something, and some one wants to buy, fine, but lending is completely out of hand.

    Kary was making arguments a while back that business runs on credit, it doesn’t. Business runs on investment, with reasonable returns.

    I could go on, but what is the point. This is a totally ridiculous set of comments by a couple of attorneys who make a living out of paper products, most of which having to do with who can get the upper hand.

    We are rapidly coming to a point where all the paper promises won’t mean a thing.

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  109. 109
    Pegasus says:

    RE: One Eyed Man @ 106 – Ah you are the one spewing rhetoric here trying to desperately trying to convince everyone here that it is A-OK to charge 390% in interest charges to minorities and people serving our country in the military and get away with it. SHAME ON YOU! The military put a stop to the payday scum from abusing their own in 2007. Are you living in the past? You are now trying to unsuccessfully trying to twist your way out of defending the Kleptocracy that you so far have idolized constantly here on the Bubble. You created a FALSE scenario of borrower default in the name of the fabricated rare and obscure “toaster” defaulter to justify extremely high interest rates. Pssst… it’s not one sided to dare and call crooks by their real names instead of making constant and ridiculous excuses as to why crooks should be able to screw their clients. Speaking of pushing buttons you and Kary are so easily baited that it has become hilarious. Try sticking to the facts instead of twisting them . It has been proven that the payday loan sharks were primarily ripping off minorities and the military in this state. The state and the military moved to stop some of the abuse. Credit cards charge about FIVE percent of what the payday scammers charge in interest for about the same risk. Stop trying to obscure the facts with irrelevant bullchocolate. Your intent was to detract from negative info about payday loan scammers.

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  110. 110
    Pegasus says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 5 – Unfortunately you were not aware of any of the true facts surrounding the payday loan scammers but you defended them as a necessary evil didn’t you. Maybe, once again, you should do some homework before you and OEM open your yaps. You are making fools out of yourselves. Again.

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  111. 111
    Pegasus says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 3 – Your counter arguments have gone from bazaar to idiotic. Well done clown! Where is your defense of why payday loan scammers are a “necessary evil” like you profess when they have charged exorbitant beyond the Mafia interest rates, targeted minorities and the military and were given an almost free ride to financially rape and pillage the populace for over ten years before the legislature and the military finally tried to stop some of their predatory behavior? Please tell us why these type of organizations need to exist in Washington state when they can’t operate in the same manner in most states? We are waiting….clown.

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  112. 112

    By wreckingbull @ 7:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @105 – Nice straw man. Bravo!

    Hardly. Pegasus’ argument is that some people are so stupid that they need his protection, and that he should decide what financial transactions they should enter into. He after all is all knowing and understands their situation better than them, and therefore should be able to make their decisions for them.

    Good thing he’s not a real estate broker. He could then argue that there are some people who are too stupid to use a limited service broker and that therefore limited service brokers should be illegal. After all, the harm that could be caused by a limited service broker far exceeds the $75 harm that we’re talking about on these payday loans, or even the $4,000 if one is done every week of the year.

    BTW, I would also suggest you learn something about Prohibition and the arguments that were made to put it into effect.

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  113. 113

    RE: Pegasus @ 9 – Is there an argument there based on fact, or are you just having an emotional breakdown? Seriously, try to make an argument not based entirely on hyperbole. Your entire position on this topic has been nothing but hyperbole.

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  114. 114
    Pegasus says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 113 – Where can you demonstrate that payday loans are a “necessary evil” that Washingtonians need to endure versus what we used to have before they were made legal here in 1995? How have we benefited from payday 390% loans when other states have kicked these type of operations out? Please justify why they are allowed to discriminate primarily against minorities? Why were they allowed to do the same thing to military people before the military got a national law to stop the abuse? Please demonstrate how you know there is more risk in their operations then credit card operations thus justifying charging 20 times more in interest. Please tell us why the state recently was forced to change the law to prevent some of their ongoing abusive practices.Try putting up some real facts and history of allowing these operations to exist instead of trying to ridicule my facts and answers that you are unable to refute. Just the facts please, no baloney.

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  115. 115

    RE: Pegasus @ 14 – Some of the legislation you’re describing is because there are a lot of politicians like you that erroneously think they know better what is best for people, and refuse to allow people to make their own choices. They want to control peoples’ lives. They are on a power trip. Just because legislation exists doesn’t mean it’s a good thing.

    Again I’ll go back to the Washington state legislator who thought that no homeowner should ever be allowed to take an offer from a scammer, and instead would be better off losing everything to foreclosure or be forced to file bankruptcy. That might be the choice she thinks she would make if she were in that situation, but in actual fact if she ever were in that situation she might very well like to have the option of getting $10,000 cash.

    Glad though that you like the nanny state. We’re heading more and more in that direction every day, so you should be happy in the future.

    BTW, I’ll point out that pawn brokers have been around a long time, and that many of the same issues are involved with them. This isn’t a new problem. Unlike you, however, I think they should be controlled rather than exterminated, because they do provide a useful service for some people.

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  116. 116
    Pegasus says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 115 – Please answer all of my questions in post 114, Kary. No more misdirection. Please respond and demonstrate with actual facts.

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  117. 117

    RE: Pegasus @ 116 – Why should I answer a bunch of stupid questions? Here goes . . .

    Do you really think that these companies target minorities because of their race? Or could it be something else, like perhaps that economic wealth is not distributed equally by race, or that certain races have higher unemployment. It’s their economic status which makes them customers, not their race.

    Or another stupid question: Why is there more risk making an unsecured short term loan to someone who either doesn’t qualify for a credit card or has maxed out all of their credit cards. Seriously? You really think that’s a question?

    I think the power grabbing control freak politician answer covers all of your other questions.

    You really have very little understanding of the real world. It’s scary sometimes the things that you write. I mean really, your question about risk compared to credit cards, that would be like some billionaire asking why there are soup kitchens when people could instead just go to Canlis. You are so out of touch it’s amazing to me.

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  118. 118
    Pegasus says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 117 – Please answer all of my questions in post 114, Kary. No more misdirection. Please respond and demonstrate with actual FACTS not speculation on your part.

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  119. 119

    RE: Pegasus @ 118 – Learn to read. I did.

    You’re odd. You make five misstatements of fact, and you claim I am wrong.

    You repeatedly ask for the same questions to be answered, and then you accuse me of misdirection.

    I think you’re confusing me for an image you’re seeing in a mirror.

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  120. 120
    Pegasus says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 119 – Please answer all of my questions in post 114, Kary. No more misdirection. Please respond and demonstrate with actual FACTS not speculation on your part.

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  121. 121
    David Losh says:

    RE: Pegasus @ 120

    Better you than me, but you will get nowhere with this.

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  122. 122
    Pegasus says:

    RE: David Losh @ 121 – I know. He can’t produce the facts and he is stuck so he tries to misdirect, ridicule and bloviate around the facts. It’s hilarious!

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  123. 123
    ARDELL says:

    Kary said: Again I’ll go back to the Washington state legislator who thought that no homeowner should ever be allowed to take an offer from a scammer, and instead would be better off losing everything to foreclosure or be forced to file bankruptcy. That might be the choice she thinks she would make if she were in that situation, but in actual fact if she ever were in that situation she might very well like to have the option of getting $10,000 cash.”

    Kary, I wouldn’t keeping using the rationale that a scammer grabbing $10,000 of someone else’s money to give to the owner is better for the owner. Why stop at $10,000? Why not $100,000? Using defense of scammers as support for your other arguments isn’t helping.

    I’d be better off with all the money in the bank vault down the street…can you find me a “scammer” to get that for me, and convince everyone it’s OK because I will be better off after they give it to me?

    Just who do you think the “scammer” is getting that $10,000 from to give to the owner, who is better off as a result?

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  124. 124
    unstoppable says:

    yikes,

    I’m going to interject and return to the original question about how to evaluate a neighborhoods prospects. I think anyone purchasing property needs to think about future population and transportation trends. Over the last thirty years we have seen suburban flight slow and in many places reverse. I don’t see traffic getting any better nor do i think enough people will telecommute to make a huge impact. I would bet on places where you don’t have, to drive everywhere. I also find train commuting much more pleasant than driving, so nice communities that allready have rail acces could be a good bet. Look at the trees, neighborhoods with mature street trees hold value. Also look at the housing stock, neighborhoods don’t often exceed the class of people they were built for originally. This article about an area in amsterdam is a good read and might provide insight.

    Good luck and my final piece of advice is never buy an old house with a finished basement.

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  125. 125

    By Pegasus @ 22:

    RE: David Losh @ 121 – I know. He can’t produce the facts and he is stuck so he tries to misdirect, ridicule and bloviate around the facts. It’s hilarious!

    Give it up. Ridicule is your game.

    You have a very narrow view of the world and simply don’t understand what those in financial distress are going though. As I mentioned, and you failed to respond to, these short term loans might be the difference between being evicted and/or being fired. That’s what makes them a necessary evil.

    You, on the other hand, wouldn’t mind if people are evicted and fired, just as long as some corporation doesn’t gross 400% interest (based primarily on fees).

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  126. 126
    Pegasus says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 125 – Please answer all of my questions in post 114, Kary. No more misdirection. Please respond and demonstrate with actual FACTS not speculation on your part.

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  127. 127

    By ARDELL @ 23:

    Kary, I wouldn’t keeping using the rationale that a scammer grabbing $10,000 of someone else’s money to give to the owner is better for the owner. Why stop at $10,000? Why not $100,000? Using defense of scammers as support for your other arguments isn’t helping.

    Huh? The scammer isn’t likely to offer $100,000. I think you’re still failing to understand the scenario. The distressed property law was designed to stop people from coming in and offering a relatively nominal amount for someone’s equity. I was using $10,000 assuming they had equity more in the $50,000-$100,000 range. The scammer is not going to offer $100,000.

    I’d be better off with all the money in the bank vault down the street…can you find me a “scammer” to get that for me, and convince everyone it’s OK because I will be better off after they give it to me?

    Okay, that’s just totally off the wall. Perhaps you need to explain what you think I’m talking about.

    Just who do you think the “scammer” is getting that $10,000 from to give to the owner, who is better off as a result?

    Huh? The scammer has the cash. Don’t you understand the type of people that invest in real estate?

    In the real world back when the distressed property law was passed there were a lot of people who had equity in their homes, but were delinquent on their loans. Many if not most of those people procrastinated dealing with the delinquency. Some of those ended up within 10 days of foreclosure, at which point in time the only way to avoid the foreclosure was to either pay off the loan in full (presumably by selling) or by filing bankruptcy. Bankruptcy, however, might do little or nothing to save the house depending on the person’s situation. That left a sale that will pay off the loan. And once you get within the 10 days, the only likely buyer is a scammer looking for a good deal. So the owner’s option then was to take $10,000 (or whatever they can negotiate) or lose everything to the foreclosure. The Washington State Legislature, in passing the distressed property law, took that choice away, and left people only with the option of losing everything. And like Pegasus doesn’t like corporations earning 400% even if it means eviction and the loss of a job, those legislators felt good that the scammer couldn’t earn a profit, even if that meant that the homeowner was left with nothing but a foreclosure on their record.

    It’s not that complicated. I’m not sure why you’re not able to follow.

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  128. 128
    Pegasus says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 25 – Please show us where the majority of payday loan borrowers that are getting charged huge interest rates by predatory lenders that 36 other states have banned are circumventing being evicted or fired. You can’t…you just made that up as an excuse to keep on financially raping minorities.

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  129. 129

    By Pegasus @ 128:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 25 – Please show us where the majority of payday loan borrowers that are getting charged huge interest rates by predatory lenders that 36 other states have banned are circumventing being evicted or fired. You can’t…you just made that up as an excuse to keep on financially raping minorities.

    I’m sorry you don’t understand the situation of people in extreme financial distress. If you’re being evicted and can’t come up with cash by the date in the eviction notice, the eviction proceeds. At a minimum you’re likely to owe more in attorney fees, and that would probably greatly exceed the charge on the short term loan.

    If your car breaks down, and your employer has already complained about days missed, that very well might be the end of your job unless you can get it fixed. But mechanics don’t release cars without payment. So absent getting a short term loan, the paycheck may be gone.

    Or perhaps you’re suggesting something else, like them prostituting their bodies, selling drugs, etc. You probably think that’s okay, because it keeps a company from earning 400% interest.

    You’re really out of touch with the world some people live in. Do you really think the situations I’m describing don’t exist? I’m sorry if I can’t come up with names and dates to document situations which occur constantly.

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  130. 130
    Pegasus says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 27 – Well Kary if there is equity in the home beyond what it takes to cure the foreclosure which a “scammer” would need to do under your proposed scenario then there is probably enough equity that the homeowner would receive some or more after the foreclosure sale. Say the house has 50,000 equity after curing the foreclosure costs. The “scammer” bids $20,000 over the bank bid and wins. The homeowner gets $20,000 after the foreclosure costs.

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  131. 131

    RE: Pegasus @ 130 – ROTFLMAO.

    You think a foreclosure sale brings fair market value? At least you’re consistent in that in many areas you demonstrate a clear failure to understand how the real world works.

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  132. 132
    Pegasus says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 29 -You can fabricate all kinds of scenarios that “might” happen that justify charging 400% at least in your own mind but you have no proof that the majority of borrowers are experiencing your fabrications. There is proof though that minorities are intentionally targeted by these vermin that you seem to think are in need of this “necessary evil” and they need to be overcharged and preyed upon.

    Please answer all of my questions in post 114, Kary. No more misdirection. Please respond and demonstrate with actual FACTS not speculation on your part.

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  133. 133
    Pegasus says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 31 – You proposed the scenario of a home with equity, I did not. Years ago when that was normally the case they would go for fair value because there was equity. Today that is not so much a valid scenario anymore. Stick with your own scenarios, Kary.

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  134. 134
    Blurtman says:

    RE: Pegasus @ 132 – No one is going to defend usury, but why do you keep bringing up “minorities?” Aren’t the users of this service – the poor, military familes and middle class – descriptive enough, or are you implying that even wealthy “minorities” with excellent credit somehow are swayed by the siren call of a payday loan?

    Quit being a racist, please.

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  135. 135
    Pegasus says:

    RE: Blurtman @ 134 – There is a study that was done a few years back right here in little old Washington State that concluded that blacks were definitely being specifically targeted by the payday loan scammers. It also said that it was very possible that other minorities were likely being targeted but it was more difficult to discern. It also concluded that although it had a smaller sample to work with that the military also was being targeted. Not hard to figure out when all of these operations had an abnormal amount of branches located next to the military bases. Duh. The military solved that problem by getting a national law passed in 2006 to protect its members from this abuse. So is it racist to point out that blacks are specifically targeted or is it racist to try and pretend there is no race involved, that it is just economics at work as Kary tried to promote here without any facts to back up his bullchocolate? Oh and Kary definitely is defending usury without any facts to back up why we need these vermin operating in our state. Of course it is legal usury because the state made in so in 1995.

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  136. 136
    Blurtman says:

    RE: Pegasus @ 135 – Haven’t read the studies, but if your business model, irrespective of how despicable it is, targets poor folks with bad credit, and “minorities” are disproportionately represented in this target market, are you targeting “minorities?” Do you think the payday loan folks stayed away from poor non-“minority” markets? There are numerically more poor non-“minorities” in the USA than “minorities.” (I would agree on a percentage basis that is not the case.) Do you think payday loan companies are not targeting these, too?

    Years ago activists claimed that a job qualification that required a college degree was designed to exclude “minorities,” and was therefore racist. It may have excluded “minorities” disporportinately, but if the job really required a college degree, was the company being racist, or just functioning in the environment that if finds itself, no matter what your view of that reaility might be?

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  137. 137
    Pegasus says:

    RE: Blurtman @ 136 – The study was done by comparing zip codes overlaid with residents based on race. It was pretty clear that blacks were specifically targeted. It also was able to dispel various myths that surround people with specific income levels. Based on what they found you would be unable to claim that since some blacks have low incomes that was the reason they placed all of the stores in their backyards when that was not true for other similar low income areas where the residents were predominately not black.

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  138. 138
    Blurtman says:

    RE: Pegasus @ 137 – What could possibly motivate that type of focus? If there is a market in ripping off poor people with bad credit, why stop at black neighborhoods? Something doesn’t smell right. But as I have not read the studies, I can only wonder.

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  139. 139
    Pegasus says:

    RE: Blurtman @ 138 – Hard to say for the real motivation and to who directed it. The study also thought other minorities were also targets but the evidence was not as strong or clear. These types of predatory loan-sharking operations were banned nationwide several generations ago. At the time of the banning many years ago blacks were being heavily targeted. Washington State has authorized interest rate charges of 390% APR as being allowed. There is a state out there that forced the industry to turn over information about payday loan operational risk and charge-offs and determined that the charge-offs were about 3 percent for the payday loan industry at the same time credit card companies were experiencing 2.7% charge-offs and charging about 15-20 percent in interest. Our state gave their permission to the payday loan industry to gouge Washington citizens in 1995. Many states now once again have banned this type of industry or limited the interest rate charges to 36 percent as the military did. Why are we still allowing the gouging of minorities and the poor?

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  140. 140

    By Pegasus @ 32:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 29 -You can fabricate all kinds of scenarios that “might” happen that justify charging 400% at least in your own mind but you have no proof that the majority of borrowers are experiencing your fabrications. There is proof though that minorities are intentionally targeted by these vermin that you seem to think are in need of this “necessary evil” and they need to be overcharged and preyed upon.

    Please answer all of my questions in post 114, Kary. No more misdirection. Please respond and demonstrate with actual FACTS not speculation on your part.

    Why do I have to prove, or even care, if the majority of the borrowers are facing those issues? The point is, this type of loan can be a very valuable tool for some people. You can’t take away everything from everyone that some people might use. What you can to is try to regulate it, which is what I’ve been supporting. I don’t try to control everyone’s life with limited information, like you tend to do.

    As to your extremely stupid questions, I’ve already responded to them. Learn to read.

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  141. 141

    By Pegasus @ 33:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 31 – You proposed the scenario of a home with equity, I did not. Years ago when that was normally the case they would go for fair value because there was equity. Today that is not so much a valid scenario anymore. Stick with your own scenarios, Kary.

    Now you’re just making stuff up. Remember, I was a bankruptcy attorney during the days when people had equity. I have some familiarity with what was recovered at foreclosure sales.

    While of course there have been some houses in the course of human history that have gone for FMV at foreclosure, that has always been a very rare occurrence. I even reported on one last year. Typically, however, 80% is about the best that is done.

    So I am sticking with my own scenario, but using facts which are likely in real life, not completely made up facts. You should try that sometime.

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  142. 142

    By Blurtman @ 34:

    RE: Pegasus @ 132 – No one is going to defend usury, but why do you keep bringing up “minorities?” Aren’t the users of this service – the poor, military familes and middle class – descriptive enough, or are you implying that even wealthy “minorities” with excellent credit somehow are swayed by the siren call of a payday loan?

    Quit being a racist, please.

    That was part of what I was referring to when I mentioned that Pegasus should look in a mirror. He accused me of misdirection, but earlier claimed that these loans are racist.

    But I think you may be right. He thinks wealthy minorities use these services sometimes. He brought up credit card rates, and claims there is no greater risk to these loans, so he apparently thinks that people with other credit options use payday loan services.

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  143. 143
    Pegasus says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 140 – You have not answered ANY of my questions posed with post 114 with any FACTS, only BALONEY. Please answer all of my questions in post 114, Kary. No more misdirection. Please respond and demonstrate with actual FACTS not speculations or hot air on your part.

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  144. 144

    By Pegasus @ 35:

    Oh and Kary definitely is defending usury without any facts to back up why we need these vermin operating in our state. Of course it is legal usury because the state made in so in 1995.

    Oxymoron much?

    Seriously, it’s either usury or it’s not. I suppose now you’re going to claim that virtually all credit cards are legal usury because they charge rates over 12%.

    Also, I would again point out that fees are not technically interest, and as OEM pointed out that’s how you get to your 400% figure.

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  145. 145
    Pegasus says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 42 – Now you are just lying. No facts just fiction….Kary’s way.

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  146. 146
    Pegasus says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 44 – That’s why I added the term “legal usury” The state made it legal but everyone but you knows it is improper and usurious and designed to fleece certain citizens in Washington. That’s why 36 other states have said ‘NO MAS” to these operations. That’s why the miltary got a NATIONAL ban against these payday loan scammers that restricted interest rates to 36% to protect its members from abuse.. A far cry from the 390% still charged to minorities and poor here in Washington isn’t it? It’s called gouging and it is proven to be targeting black people. What’s with that, Kary?

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  147. 147
    David Losh says:

    RE: Blurtman @ 138

    The study was cultural about the migration of money. Black neighborhoods have a financial drain to outside of the community. Black business owners have said that for years.

    Asian communities are much more likely to retain money circulating within asian owned community businesses.

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  148. 148

    By Blurtman @ 38:

    RE: Pegasus @ 137 – What could possibly motivate that type of focus? If there is a market in ripping off poor people with bad credit, why stop at black neighborhoods? Something doesn’t smell right. But as I have not read the studies, I can only wonder.

    Studies are often designed with their outcome predetermined or incomplete analysis (perhaps to accomplish the former). I suspect Pegasus found one of those and fell for it hook line and sinker.

    This is a good example of the latter as it pertains to traffic tickets:

    http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1314&dat=20000720&id=YrszAAAAIBAJ&sjid=Q_IDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6758,6698686

    As the article notes, there could be many reasons for the disparity, including economic reasons.

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  149. 149

    By Pegasus @ 43:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 140 – You have not answered ANY of my questions posed with post 114 with any FACTS, only BALONEY. Please answer all of my questions in post 114, Kary. No more misdirection. Please respond and demonstrate with actual FACTS not speculations or hot air on your part.

    This is getting tiring. What are you? Ten years old?

    I get it. You want to keep others from doing things that might be in their interest because corporations that you don’t like might profit from it. You want to make such decisions based on your incomplete and inaccurate view of the world. You really should become a religious figure or politician. You’d fit right in because you have the aptitude for wanting to make stupid decisions that control other peoples’ lives.

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  150. 150

    By Kary L. Krismer @ 42:

    By Blurtman @ 34:
    RE: Pegasus @ 132 – No one is going to defend usury, but why do you keep bringing up “minorities?” Aren’t the users of this service – the poor, military familes and middle class – descriptive enough, or are you implying that even wealthy “minorities” with excellent credit somehow are swayed by the siren call of a payday loan?

    Quit being a racist, please.

    That was part of what I was referring to when I mentioned that Pegasus should look in a mirror. He accused me of misdirection, but earlier claimed that these loans are racist.

    But I think you may be right. He thinks wealthy minorities use these services sometimes. He brought up credit card rates, and claims there is no greater risk to these loans, so he apparently thinks that people with other credit options use payday loan services.

    By Pegasus @ 45:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 42 – Now you are just lying. No facts just fiction….Kary’s way.

    How is that in any way a lie? You said those things above. You brought up the race topic. You said compared the risk of a payday loan to that of a credit card, despite the fact that the people getting payday loans likely either don’t have credit cards or have maxed them out.

    Talk about misdirection. When the facts don’t suit you, claim the other person is lying.

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  151. 151
    Pegasus says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 148 – Misdirection, Bozo. Stick with the facts. Traffic tickets have nothing to do with gouging black people. Try answering my questions posed in post 114 with facts and not misdirection and fiction….we are waiting Kary. Can’t provide any facts to support your assertion that we need these operations to gouge people, specifically black people?

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  152. 152
    David Losh says:

    It’s very simple that businesses don’t have to make excessive profits to be profitable. Risk is compounded if you attempt to cheat people. Pay day loans are like that. The risk is that the check won’t be good. It’s a matter of odds, like gambling.

    Should gambling be illegal? It would happen anyway, that’s why it’s legal, the same with liquor.

    The difference is that most people won’t go to court over debt issues, and will simply collect, which is allowed. In Washington State I’m allowed to collect my own debts. That just leads to other crime.

    The government prefers this type of theft by Pay Day Loan companies because it fills a niche that will use legal means to cover the risk. The government can also collect taxes associated with this risk, loan sharking it is a shadow economy.

    This industry should be highly regulated.

    That doesn’t change this exchange of comments which was fruitless. Once again Kary has insulted the topic into the ground without facts, or a point that is based in today’s circumstances. It’s another train wreck that we look at as we drive by.

    Really, what was the point other than an attempt to belittle some one?

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  153. 153
    Pegasus says:

    Payday loans….here is how it was for people in the military until the military got a national law in place to protect it’s members…..

    “Liz Kosse, director of the Naval-Marine Corps Relief Society in Bremerton, sees sailors who are in so deep that they can’t get out on their own.
    People like the naval petty officer who racked up $5,433 in fees on one $500 loan before turning to the society and her commander for help.”

    Read more: http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/Payday-loan-outlets-tempt-soldiers-and-sailors-1174182.php#ixzz1pZjvqdbE

    Here is why they passed the law protecting the military from predators:

    http://www.responsiblelending.org/payday-lending/policy-legislation/congress/military-and-payday.html

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  154. 154

    By Pegasus @ 151:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 148 – Misdirection, Bozo. Stick with the facts. Traffic tickets have nothing to do with gouging black people. Try answering my questions posed in post 114 with facts and not misdirection and fiction..

    If I link to facts you claim they are irrelevant because you cannot understand the simple English I used which explained why I posted the link. I pointed out how studies can be flawed.

    But talk about not posting facts! You’re talking repeatedly about this study, but have not posted a link or described it in a way which would allow it to be found. You’re the one just making things up. Again, you need to look in the mirror when you make claims about others. You’re only describing yourself.

    And again, what are you 10 years old? I already answered the questions in post 114. Read posts 115 and 117. That covered all of them. If you understood English you would know that.

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  155. 155

    By David Losh @ 52:

    The government prefers this type of theft by Pay Day Loan companies because it fills a niche that will use legal means to cover the risk. The government can also collect taxes associated with this risk, loan sharking it is a shadow economy.

    You actually bring up a good point. Washington state probably prefers this because it’s better than the “mafia” alternative which Pegasus supports. Contrary to his claim, loan sharks are not that nice of people, and they don’t tend to follow rules.

    During prohibition, people died from illegal alcohol not meant for human consumption. When abortions were illegal, women died from illegal abortions. Those are the types of results you get when you think like Pegasus and try to control other peoples’ lives while not understanding how the real world works.

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  156. 156
    Pegasus says:

    Here is why they passed the law protecting the military from predators:

    http://www.responsiblelending.org/payday-lending/policy-legislation/congress/military-and-payday.html

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  157. 157
    David Losh says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 154

    These are points you should have made earlier. You didn’t make any points.

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  158. 158
    Pegasus says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 54 – Haha. Now I “support the Mafia” according to Mr. No Facts Only Fiction Man? Give us some real facts Kary. Tell us all about the profit margins for the payday loan scammers. Cat got your tongue? Well just make something up as usual. Tell us why we did not need these scammers who were outlawed for generations and suddenly we “needed” them to save us?

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  159. 159
    Pegasus says:

    Payday loans….here is how it was for people in the military until the military got a national law in place to protect it’s members…..

    “Liz Kosse, director of the Naval-Marine Corps Relief Society in Bremerton, sees sailors who are in so deep that they can’t get out on their own.
    People like the naval petty officer who racked up $5,433 in fees on one $500 loan before turning to the society and her commander for help.”

    http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/Payday-loan-outlets-tempt-soldiers-and-sailors-1174182.php#ixzz1pZjvqdbE

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 0

  160. 160

    By David Losh @ 55:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 154

    These are points you should have made earlier. You didn’t make any points.

    Out of curiosity, how do you consider repeatedly pointing out someone could be evicted or lose their job to not be making any points?

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  161. 161

    By Pegasus @ 56:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 54 – Haha. Now I “support the Mafia” according to Mr. No Facts Only Fiction Man?

    It’s pretty sad when you can’t even comprehend what you write.

    By Pegasus @ 84:

    RE: – Absolutely. They are charging more than the Mafia and at least the Mafia had a heart when it came to collections.

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  162. 162
    Pegasus says:

    Payday lenders survive by keeping customers caught in long-term debt, and before 2007, members of the American military service were not off-limits. In fact, payday loan stores clustered around bases, promising quick cash to military families in need, who, when they borrowed from a payday lender more often than not ended up caught in debt at triple-digit interest.

    Congress acted to protect military families from this predation by including a measure in the Defense Authorization Act of 2006 that prohibits payday and title lenders from charging higher than 36 percent APR. The lawmakers were responding to a 92-page report from the Department of Defense documenting widespread and ongoing financial difficulties among military families due to predatory practices like payday and car title lending.

    http://www.responsiblelending.org/payday-lending/policy-legislation/congress/military-and-payday.html

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  163. 163
    Ray pepper says:

    Tim, not that your even monitoring this but what does all this crap on pay day loans have to do with topic on hand. Again, why was this not sent to your vast waste land of off topic comments. Nothing wrong with Peg or Kary because I love watching popcorn style slam debates. What IS wrong is your monitoring and choosing at your whim what is off and what is on topic.

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  164. 164

    RE: Ray pepper @ 163 – If the neighborhood has a lot of payday loan places nearby, it’s heading downhill. ;-)

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  165. 165
    Pegasus says:

    Dear Chairman Bernanke, Director Cordray, Acting Chairman Gruenberg, and Acting Comptroller Walsh:

    We write to urge the federal regulators of our nation’s banks to take immediate action to stop banks from making unaffordable, high-cost payday loans.

    Wells Fargo, US Bank, Fifth Third, Regions, and Guaranty Bank’s deposit “advance” loans are structured just like loans from payday loan stores – carrying a high-cost combined with a short-term balloon repayment. Research has long shown that these loans trap borrowers in a cycle of expensive long-term debt, causing serious financial harm to borrowers, including increased likelihood of bankruptcy, paying credit card debts and other bills late, delayed medical care, and loss of basic banking privileges because of repeated overdrafts.
    >
    >
    >

    Sincerely,

    National Organizations

    AFL-CIO
    Americans for Financial Reform
    Center for Responsible Lending
    Church of England Ethical Investment Advisory Group
    Consumer Action
    Consumer Federation of America
    Consumers Union
    Demos
    First Nations Development Institute
    Green America
    Jesuit Conference
    Jewish Reconstructionist Federation
    Leadership Conference for Civil and Human Rights
    Main Street Alliance
    Missonary Oblates, US Province
    NAACP
    National Advocacy Center of the Sisters of the Good Shepherd
    National Association of Consumer Advocates
    National Community Reinvestment Coalition
    National Consumer Law Center (on behalf of its low income clients)
    National Fair Housing Alliance
    National People’s Action
    NETWORK, A National Catholic Social Justice Lobby
    Mercy Investment Services
    Pax World Funds
    PICO National Network
    Progressive Asset Management
    Responsible Endowments Coalition
    Sisters of Charity of the Blessed Virgin Mary
    Sojourners
    The Greenlining Institute
    Trillium Asset Management
    United Church of Christ Justice and Witness Ministries
    US PIRG

    State and Community Organizations

    AccountAbility Minnesota
    Action for Children North Carolina
    Action North Carolina
    Adrian Dominican Sisters (Seattle, WA)
    Alabama Appleseed
    Alliance to Develop Power (Springfield, MA)
    American Friends Service Committee – South East New England Office
    Aquinas Associates (Dallas, TX)
    Arizona Advocacy Network
    Arizona Community Action Association
    Arizonans for Responsible Lending Coalition
    Arkansans Against Abusive Payday Lending
    Arkansas Advocates for Children and Families
    Arkansas Community Organizations
    Baltimore CASH Campaign (Baltimore, MD)
    Bell Policy Center (CO)
    Better Choices for a Better Louisiana Coalition
    California Church IMPACT
    California Reinvestment Coalition
    Casa Latina (Seattle, WA)
    Center for Economic Integrity (Tuscon, AZ)
    Central Alabama Fair Housing Center (Montgomery, AL)
    Chhaya CDC (Jackson Heights, NY)
    Children’s Alliance (WA)
    Christopher Reynolds Foundation (New York, NY)
    Citizen Action Illinois
    CitySquare (Dallas, TX)
    Cleveland Housing Network (Cleveland, OH)
    Coalition of Religious Communities (Salt Lake City, UT)
    Coalition on Homelessness & Housing in Ohio
    Coastal Enterprises Institute (ME)
    Coloradans for Payday Lending Reform
    Colorado Progressive Coalition
    Communities Creating Opportunity (Kansas City, MO)
    Communities United for Action (Cincinnati, OH)
    Community Financial Resources (CA)
    Community Union (Van Nuys, CA)
    Connecticut Association for Human Services
    Consumer Credit Counseling Service of Forsyth County (Winston-Salem, NC)
    Consumer Credit Counseling Service of Greater Greensboro (Greensboro, NC)
    Courage Campaign (CA)
    Credit Counseling Agencies of North Carolina Association
    Democratic Processes Center, Inc (Tuscon, AZ)
    District Council 37 (New York), AFSCME (New York, NY)
    Dominican Sisters of Hope (Ossining, NY)
    Dominican Sisters of Sparkill (Sparkill, NY)
    East LA Community Corporation (Los Angeles, CA)
    Economic Fairness Oregon
    EMERGE Community Development (Minneapolis, MN)
    Empire Justice Center (NY)
    Fair Housing Center (Toledo, OH)
    Fair Housing Council of Northern New Jersey
    Faith Action Network (WA)
    Fifth Avenue Committee (New York, NY)
    Financial Protection Law Center (NC)
    Florida Consumer Action Network
    Florida Minority Community Reinvestment Coalition
    Foreclosure Relief Law Project (MN)
    Friends Fiduciary (Philadelphia, PA)
    Fuse Washington
    Genesee Co-op Federal Credit Union (Rochester, NY)
    Glenmary Home Missioners (Fairfield, OH)
    GRO-Grassroots Organizing (MO)
    Habitat for Humanity of Mahoning County (Sturthers, OH)
    Heartland Alliance for Human Needs (IL)
    Housing Action Coalition (RI)
    Housing Action Illinois
    Housing Research & Advocacy Center (Cleveland, OH)
    IIRON (IL and IN)
    Illinois People’s Action
    Insight Center for Community Economic Development (Oakland, CA)
    Interfaith Housing Center of the Northern Suburbs (Winnetka, IL)
    Iowa Citizens for Community Improvement
    ISAIAH (Minneapolis, MN)
    Jesuit Social Research Institute, Loyola University (New Orleans, LA)
    Jewish Community Action (MN)
    LeadingAge Ohio
    Legal Assistance Resource Center of Connecticut
    Legal Services of Southern Piedmont (Charlotte, NC)
    Lorain County Urban League (Elyria, OH)
    Louisiana Budget Project
    Lutheran Public Policy Office of Washington
    Lutheran Social Service of Minnesota
    Maine Center for Economic Policy
    Maine Equal Justice Partners
    Maine People’s Alliance
    Maine Women’s Lobby
    Maine’s Majority
    Mainstream Oklahoma Baptists
    Marine Corps Installations East
    Maryland Budget and Tax Policy Institute
    Maryland CASH Campaign
    Maryland Consumer Rights Coalition
    MDC (Durham, NC)
    Memphis Responsible Lending Coalition (Memphis, TN)
    Metanoia Centers for Innovation (Champaign, IL)
    MFY Legal Services (New York, NY)
    Miami Valley Fair Housing Center (Dayton, OH)
    Mid-Minnesota Legal Assistance
    Midwest Coalition for Responsible Investment (St. Louis, MO)
    Minnesota Community Action Partnership
    Minnesotans for a Fair Economy
    Mission Asset Fund (San Francisco, CA)
    Missionary Servants of the Most Holy Trinity (Silver Spring, MD)
    Montana Community Foundation
    National Association of Social Workers-North Carolina Chapter
    Neighborhood Economic Development Advocacy Project (NEDAP) (New York, NY)
    Neighbors Helping Neighbors (New York, NY)
    Neighborworks Blackstone River Valley (RI)
    Neighborworks Rochester (Rochester, NY)
    New Baptist Covenant Midwest Region
    New Hampshire Legal Assistance
    North Carolina Community Development Initiative
    North Carolina Council of Churches
    North Carolina Housing Coalition
    North Carolina Institute for Minority Economic Development
    North Carolina Justice Center
    North Carolina State AFL-CIO
    Northeast Ohio Legal Services
    Oakland Allen Temple Church (Oakland, CA)
    Office of Peace and Justice, Sinsinawa Dominican Sisters (Sinsinawa, WI)
    Ohio Conference of Seventh-Day Adventists
    Ohio Conference Seventh-Day Adventist Schools
    Ohio Poverty Law Center
    Oklahoma Policy Institute
    OnTrack Financial Education & Counseling (Asheville, NC)
    Pisgah Legal Services (NC)
    Policy Matters Ohio
    Pratt Area Community Council (Brooklyn, NY)
    Progress Florida
    Progress Mass (MA)
    Progress Missouri
    Progress Ohio
    Progress Texas
    ProgressNow Colorado
    ProgressNow Nevada
    ProgressNow New Mexico
    Reinvestment Partners (NC)
    Rensselaer County Housing Resources (Troy, NY)
    Rural Dynamics (MT)
    SEIU Local 26 (Minneapolis, MN)
    Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth (Convent Station, NJ)
    Sisters of St. Francis of Assisi (St. Francis, WI)
    Sisters of St. Francis of Philadelphia (Philadelphia, PA)
    Sisters of St. Francis of Tiffin, Ohio
    Sisters of St. Joseph of Springfield, Massachusetts
    South Carolina Appleseed Legal Justice Center
    Southsiders Organized for Unity and Liberation (Chicago, IL)
    St. Michael’s Parish (Providence, RI)
    Statewide Poverty Action Network (WA)
    Syracuse United Neighbors (Syracuse, NY)
    Take Action Minnesota
    Teamsters Local 237 (New York, NY)
    The Economic Progress Institute (RI)
    The Financial Clinic (New York, NY)
    The Support Center (NC)
    Toledo First Church of Seventh Day Adventists (Toledo, OH)
    Triangle Congregations Associations and Neighborhoods (Durham, NC)
    Tri-State Coalition for Responsible Investment (Montclair, NJ)
    United Federal Credit Union (NY)
    United Way of Erie County (Erie, OH)
    Ursuline Sisters of Tildonk, U.S. Province (NY)
    Virginia Citizen’s Consumer Council
    Virginia Poverty Law Center
    Virginians Against Payday Lending
    VOCAL – NY (Brooklyn, NY)
    Washington State Labor Council, AFL-CIO
    Western New York Law Center
    Woodstock Institute (Chicago, IL)
    Xaverian Brothers (Baltimore, MD)

    Individual Advocates (organization provided for identification purposes)

    Alan Reberg, Raleigh Mennonite Church (Raleigh, NC)
    Amy Greer (RI)
    Anders Blewett, State Senator (MT)
    Anne Hansen Gathje, Hansen Law LLC (St. Paul, MN)
    Benjamin J. Thorpe, Hispanic College Fund (Washington, DC)
    Bill Lerman, Jewish Community Action (Minneapolis, MN)
    Billie Dougherty, AARP Volunteer Advocacy Team (AR)
    Carol Bromer, Jewish Community Action (Minneapolis, MN)
    Caroline Peattie, Fair Housing of Marin (Marin, CA)
    Connie Russell, HOPE NC (Raleigh, NC)
    Daniel P. Rhodes, Emmaus Way Church (Durham, NC)
    Debbie McCune Davis, State Senator (AZ)
    Donna Goodell, New Horizons Community Learning Center (Newark, OH)
    Doug Seay Committee on Church and Society, North Alabama Conference, United Methodist Church
    Douglas Micko, The Schaefer Law Firm LLC (Minneapolis, MN)
    E. Michelle Drake, Attorney at Law (Minneapolis, MN)
    Fr. Gerry Creedon, Holy Family Catholic Church (Dale City, VA)
    Idalia Fernandez, Hispanic College Fund (Washington, DC)
    Jean Stultz, Bragg Mutual Federal Credit Union (NC)
    Jonathan Motl, Morrison, Motl and Sherwood (Helena, MT)
    Judith Wylie-Rosset, UU Congregation at Shelter Rock (Manhasset, NY)
    Kai Richter, Attorney At Law (Minneapolis, MN)
    Margaret Weber, Congregation of St. Basil
    Marisa Katz, PLLP (Minneapolis, MN)
    Matthew Dunbar, Habitat for Humanity, (New York, NY)
    Michael Warren, Washington State Alliance for Retired Persons
    Nancy Kenyon, Fair Housing Marin (Marin, CA)
    Nicholas DiNardo (Cincinnati, OH)
    Peter F. Barry, Consumer Rights Lawyer (Minneapolis, MN)
    Louis Ruis, State Representative (KS)
    Rev. Dr. Sharon Stanley, Fresno Interdenominational Refugee Ministries (Fresno, CA)
    Rev. Londia Granger Wright, St. Luke’s United Methodist Church (Kansas City, MO)
    Rev. Stephen Copley, Arkansas Interfaith Alliance
    Richard A. Fisher (Cleveland, TN)
    Richard Fuller, The Schaefer Law Firm LLC (Minneapolis, MN)
    Rita L. Haynes, President and CEO of Faith Community United Credit Union, Retired (OH)
    Robert Cloar, Attorney at Law (Fort Smith, AR)
    Sam Glover, The Glover Law Firm, LLC (Minneapolis, MN)
    Sonia Kowal, Zevin Asset Management LLC (Boston, MA)
    Stephanie Fairchild, Ohio Valley ESC (Marietta, OH)
    Theresa Watson, Community Development, City of Jacksonville (Jacksonville, AK)
    Tim Iglesias, Professor of Law, University of San Francisco School of Law

    http://www.responsiblelending.org/payday-lending/policy-legislation/regulators/letter-to-bank-regulators-re-bank-payday-lending.html

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  166. 166

    RE: Pegasus @ 165 – No need to waste so much space. I’ll stipulate that there are a lot of stupid people running organizations in this country.

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  167. 167
    Blurtman says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 166 – It is a requirement.

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  168. 168
    Blurtman says:

    RE: Pegasus @ 65 – What!!!! Consumers are the raw material of industry, to be depleted and discarded to fuel progress. The future, Mr. Gittes.

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