Monday Open Thread (2012-04-09)

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Here is your open thread for Monday April 9th, 2012. You may post random links and off-topic discussions here. Also, if you have an idea or a topic you’d like to see covered in an article, please make it known.

Be sure to also check out the forums, and get your word in the user-driven discussions there!


About The Tim

Tim Ellis is the founder of Seattle Bubble. His background in engineering and computer / internet technology, a fondness of data-based analysis of problems, and an addiction to spreadsheets all influence his perspective on the Seattle-area real estate market.

53 comments:

  1. 1
    Pegasus says:

    Speculators Cut Wagers as Fed Signals Less Stimulus: Commodities

    Hedge funds reduced bullish bets on commodities for a second consecutive week as the Federal Reserve signaled it may refrain from more monetary stimulus, increasing concern that growth will slow and curb demand for raw materials.
    Money managers lowered net-long positions across 18 U.S. futures and options by 2.8 percent to 1.1 million contracts in the week ended April 3, data from the Commodity Futures Trading Commission show. Bets on higher corn prices fell to the lowest since February, while those on hogs dropped by the most since May. Speculators cut wagers on costlier crude oil for a third week, and are now the least bullish in two months.
    The Standard & Poor’s GSCI gauge of 24 commodities rose more than 80 percent from December 2008 to June 2011 as the central bank set rates at a record low and bought $2.3 trillion of debt in two rounds of quantitative easing.
    “The market is addicted to stimulus,” said Jeffrey Sica, the Morristown, New Jersey-based president of SICA Wealth Management who helps oversee $1 billion of assets. “This market has risen because of the liquidity push and the market will decline when it’s deprived of liquidity.”

    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/hedge-funds-cut-wagers-fed-200000671.html

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  2. 2

    RE: Pegasus @ 1

    Perhaps

    But the stock market sure has been bullish since QEs were eliminated. Why you ask? I’m really not sure, but could guess the rich and retirement fund managers buy equities anyway, because bank savings account interest is a joke.

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  3. 3

    RE: softwarengineer @ 2 – Wouldn’t it just be the fear of rising interest on bonds?

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 0

  4. 4

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 3

    Lower Interest Does keep Longterm Bond Interest High

    But most rich investment folks don’t want to lock in like 5-6% for the next 30 years, so they would of traded in short term treasuries, like 0.2%, but decided there’s more gain in stock equities? Its a messy guess to figure out why.

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  5. 5
    Dirty Renter says:

    ‘Painter of Light’ Thomas Kinkade died this weekend. I would suggest that if anyone owns an original oil or acrylic on canvas…you might want to keep it. Rockwell, much like Kinkade, was pooh-poohed by the art critics. Try to buy an original Rockwell today. I’m not a fan of Kinkade…either his work or his de-listed stock…just saying. I’ve been trying, the last few years, to buy an original Eyvind Earle…with no luck. I hear that his daughter lives in this area. She must have some amazing memories of that wonderful man, whom I would humbly submit, is an American Master.

    http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/04/06/11064422-painter-of-light-artist-thomas-kinkade-dies-at-age-54?chromedomain=todayentertainment

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  6. 6
    Blurtman says:

    RE: Dirty Renter @ 5 – Not my taste as well, but I heard that Goldman Sachs has a hit squad that knocks off collectable artists, of course, after GS buys up a good quanity of art. And Barack Obama said that while many Americans may not like the killing of artists by Wall Street, that no crimes had been committed.

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  7. 7
    Hugh Dominic says:

    RE: Blurtman @ 6 – +1

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  8. 8
    pfft says:

    Maybe this will finally end the hysteria that is the labor participation rate…at least until I have to post it again next month.

    About 35 percent of the people who have dropped out of the labor force since the recession began in 2007 do want a job, but they’ve become too discouraged to fire off resumes. That’s not good. The other 65 percent are people who have left the labor force and don’t want a job. Some of them are young and perhaps decided to go back to school. But the biggest chunk, by far, seems to be composed of Baby Boomers who have decided to retire early.

    Where do people go when they drop out of the labor force?
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/post/where-do-people-go-when-they-drop-out-of-the-labor-force/2012/04/08/gIQAMPsz3S_blog.html\

    That should settle that.

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  9. 9
    pfft says:

    By Blurtman @ 6:

    RE: Dirty Renter @ 5 – Not my taste as well, but I heard that Goldman Sachs has a hit squad that knocks off collectable artists, of course, after GS buys up a good quanity of art. And Barack Obama said that while many Americans may not like the killing of artists by Wall Street, that no crimes had been committed.

    I KNOW WHO YOU ARE! Matt Taibbi.

    Nobody should have any illusions about where he stands on Wall Street corruption after this thing[JOBS Act]. Boss Tweed himself couldn’t have done any worse.

    http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/why-obamas-jobs-act-couldnt-suck-worse-20120409#ixzz1rbz1yxye

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  10. 10
    pfft says:

    who said that growth would come from manufacturing? moi.

    BOFA: 3 Reasons America Is Having A Major Manufacturing Renaissance
    http://www.businessinsider.com/bofa-economist-3-trends-american-manufacturing-renaissance-2012-4#ixzz1rc3dnCwG

    lower dollar=manufacturing boom=economic recovery.

    Right now we are at record exports. I guess we don’t manufacture anything though?

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  11. 11
    Tatiana Kalashnikov says:

    RE: pfft @ 10

    “Right now we are at record exports. I guess we don’t manufacture anything though?’

    Well, I understand that America is exporting quite a bit of natural gas.

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  12. 12

    RE: pfft @ 8 – Is being forced to retire early because the economy sucks a good thing? Sometimes it is if the employer makes a good offer to the employee and the employee’s situation is setup well. Other times it will mean the employee will suffer economically the rest of their life.

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  13. 13

    RE: Tatiana Kalashnikov @ 11RE: pfft @ 10 – Low natural gas prices here was the third reason given in pfft’s article about manufacturing increases here. To the extent we start using less coal, that price advantage will disappear.

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  14. 14

    RE: pfft @ 8

    You Should Re-title Your MSM Article

    Where does America’s ghost Unemployed end up?

    Back to school? Pfft, they couldn’t get a job with their first degree, why is more school gonna help?

    Retired early?

    Try living on a forced $1000-1500 a month as a sole income, then you’ll know why the retired folks want their jobs back again, even if they’re all gone.

    How about they barely survive and many live in their parents’ basement, sponging off their parents for food and health care.

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  15. 15

    RE: Tatiana Kalashnikov @ 11

    How about just take the word “natural” from the sentence….lol

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 0

  16. 16
    Blurtman says:

    RE: pfft @ 8 – It does indeed seem to support the claim that the US economy under president Obama is worse than under his predecessor, as hard as it is to state that, at least from a labor force participation rate.

    Do you know if a discouraged worker who returns to school full time is no longer counted as a discouraged worker? It has already been reported by numerous sources that the young are returning to school to pursue advanced degrees because there are no jobs.

    And I suppose you would argue that boomers are retiring early because they are flush with cash? They are biting the bullet because they cannot get hired.

    And the increased numbers of folks going on SSI disability is merely an indication of worker related injuries because more and more folks are working? Folks are desparate, and likely can find sympathetic doctors to go alonbg with the claim.

    Your link merely anlayzes the declining labor participation rate, but does not at all support the contention that the economy is improving. It merely analyzes where the jobless go. Some stay put as discouraged workers, some return to school, and some are forcibly retired.

    It does clarify one fact – the the 65 and older population have never been counted in the labor force participation rate, and so that wave of retiring boomers has no bearing on the data.

    Obama – Big Fail. Shouldn’t expect too much from a junior Senator with little experience.

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  17. 17
    wreckingbull says:

    Will someone please explain the dogmatic, unwavering support people like pfft give to a single politician or political party? I honestly find it a bit fascinating, especially from a psychological perspective. Cult of personality, I guess.

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  18. 18

    RE: wreckingbull @ 17 – I’m not so sure that doesn’t describe the majority of Americans! Many people have their positions on things like taxes and global warming set by their political affiliations. Their analysis of those issues never went beyond accepting the position of someone they know is liberal or conservative (democrat or republican).

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  19. 19
    wreckingbull says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 18 – Not unlike my mother in law, who rails against socialism, yet goes to Medicare-paid doctor appointments about 2-3 times per week, and who retired at age 41 (with older husband), living almost completely off social security for the past FORTY FIVE years. I have seen the enemy, and it is (most of) us……equally distributed between the big two political parties.

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  20. 20

    RE: wreckingbull @ 19 – Here’s an even better example. This guy doesn’t realize that higher taxes and even the talk of higher taxes results in lower employment.

    http://content.usatoday.com/communities/theoval/post/2012/04/obama-tax-the-rich-to-grow-the-economy/1#.T4Ro0VGWfcE

    ;-)

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  21. 21
    Dirty Renter says:

    RE: Tatiana Kalashnikov @ 11
    We’re exporting some petroleum products but not natural gas per se. It will be 2 years before Cheniere completes the first NG export facility in Louisiana. The problem is that you have to freeze(liquify) it before loading it into a special ship for export. From what I understand, the facility has been approved but the Feds has not yet approved final exportation.The funny thing is that Cheniere had just completed an import facility when the glut began!

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  22. 22
    Dirty Renter says:

    RE: wreckingbull @ 17
    We had 2 good presidents in Bush1 & Clinton….so I guess we deserve these last 2 bummers.
    I’m still undecided if Obama is worse than Bush2. That’s a pretty steep hill….what with 2 unfunded wars & huge tax cuts.

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  23. 23
    pfft says:

    By wreckingbull @ 17:

    Will someone please explain the dogmatic, unwavering support people like pfft give to a single politician or political party? I honestly find it a bit fascinating, especially from a psychological perspective. Cult of personality, I guess.

    gosh, I don’t think you’ve been around here long. I’ve criticized Obama many times. If you’ve read my comments on healthcare or deficit reduction you’d know that.

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  24. 24
    pfft says:

    By Tatiana Kalashnikov @ 11:

    RE: pfft @ 10

    “Right now we are at record exports. I guess we donâ��t manufacture anything though?’

    Well, I understand that America is exporting quite a bit of natural gas.

    I am not sure. I don’t think that there is another ports for that. I think that’s why the natural gas price is so low, because it’s a domestic market instead of an international one like oil.

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  25. 25
    pfft says:

    By softwarengineer @ 14:

    RE: pfft @ 8

    You Should Re-title Your MSM Article

    Where does America’s ghost Unemployed end up?

    Back to school? Pfft, they couldn’t get a job with their first degree, why is more school gonna help?

    Because when you get out of school you’ll have a better resume that will pay well and your chances of being unemployed are reduced. if you have a college education the unemployment rate among your group is 4%. for Phds I think it’s even lower.

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  26. 26
    pfft says:

    By wreckingbull @ 19:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 18 – Not unlike my mother in law, who rails against socialism, yet goes to Medicare-paid doctor appointments about 2-3 times per week, and who retired at age 41 (with older husband), living almost completely off social security for the past FORTY FIVE years. I have seen the enemy, and it is (most of) us……equally distributed between the big two political parties.

    there wasn’t a recent study that said a lot of people don’t know they are on a government program when they are…

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  27. 27
    Blurtman says:

    RE: wreckingbull @ 19 – At least with regards to Social Security, you should not be able to withdraw more than you put in. And if you die prematurely without accessing SS, your contributions should be returned to your heirs.

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  28. 28
    Scotsman says:

    RE: wreckingbull @ 17

    Thinking is hard work, but emotions flow freely, even in the unschooled. Thinking in a productive manner requires some education so as to establish a reference or perspective that allows validation. Education takes a lot of work. Hell, I get tired just thinking about all that work. It’s much easier to just vote for the best looking/tallest guy or gal who promises the most benefits, then sit back and wait for the checks to arrive. then you can watch TV or play video games, or go for a hike.

    The real mystery is why it took us 200 years as a country to get to this point. With the odds weighted heavily in favor of a majority voting themselves more free stuff we should have come to the same end 50 years sooner.

    The only thging that will save us is the checks bouncing.

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  29. 29
    Scotsman says:

    RE: pfft @ 25

    “Because when you get out of school you’ll have a better resume that will pay well and your chances of being unemployed are reduced. if you have a college education the unemployment rate among your group is 4%.”

    Complete BS:

    “Among the members of the class of 2010, just 56 percent had held at least one job by this spring, when the survey was conducted. That compares with 90 percent of graduates from the classes of 2006 and 2007″

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/19/business/economy/19grads.html

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  30. 30

    RE: pfft @ 25

    Last I Heard/Documented

    Experienced professionals with degrees had a higher unemployed rate than the conglomerate. Engineers’ unemployment rate today is twice normal. This shortage they all preached for professional groups is hogwash to overpopulate and decrease wages.

    Even these figures get skewed when we no longer count ‘em. Hades an Electrical Engineer selling stuff at Radio Shack is considered not unemployed.

    Pfft, you always want MSM proof, even when your MSM is just fairy tales a lion’s share of the time lately.

    Raw data to extrapolate is the best proof, like Seattle Bubble uses, albeit the missing data is what everything hinges on and that is masked and hard to find IMO.

    So where are we in finding truth? One hades of a long way from the end. The Tim will be working this site for decades IMO.

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  31. 31
    Scotsman says:

    What comes next- inflation, deflation, muddle, collapse? Want to know more- here’s a good start:

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/artemis-volatility-worlds-end-deflation-hyperinflation-and-alchemy-risk

    I tend to agree with the author for the most part, but who knows.

    “In our postmodern economy it is very difficult to separate the reality of fundamental economic growth from the illusion of central bank backed-prosperity. Today’s markets are trapped in an Orwellian world of financial repression whereby equity and bond markets are not up, not down, but merely where ever central banks want them to be. When the monetary gods want you to buy risk assets, like it or not, you will be punished for not doing so in the form of ZIRP and lagging performance. What concerns me most is not how markets perform during monetary expansion but what occurs immediately thereafter. For the investor the equation is simple: when central banks are printing money volatility declines and risk assets increase, but when the printing stops… get the hell out of the way.”

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  32. 32

    RE: Scotsman @ 29

    And the Unemployed College Graduates Snowballs From Previous Years too Scotsman

    There’s no end to the added growth year after year. The good news, we don’t count ‘em unemployed, they haven’t worked yet.

    When did they start not paying degreed graduates for working and calling them interns? The last decade to my recollection.

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  33. 33

    RE: Scotsman @ 31

    We Get Inflation Until No One Can Buy Anything Anymore

    That is hard to predict, especially when we used credit cards a lot. This evolution to debit cards and cash as we go killed that golden goose.

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  34. 34
    wreckingbull says:

    RE: pfft @ 23 – The only criticism I have heard from you is that Obama did not spend enough, basically a parrot of Krugman’s tired old line. I must have missed all the other criticism.

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  35. 35
    wreckingbull says:

    RE: Blurtman @ 27 – Try telling that to the Baby Boomers :) You will be running full-tilt down the road, chased by pitchforks and torches.

    Actually maybe not. According to pfft, they are all retiring early since they are so flush with cash and well-prepared for life at Del Boca Vista, Phase III.

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  36. 36

    By Blurtman @ 27:

    RE: wreckingbull @ 19 – At least with regards to Social Security, you should not be able to withdraw more than you put in. And if you die prematurely without accessing SS, your contributions should be returned to your heirs.

    Social security is not an investment account. It’s more like life insurance–term life insurance.

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  37. 37

    By Scotsman @ 29:

    RE: pfft @ 25

    “Because when you get out of school youâ��ll have a better resume that will pay well and your chances of being unemployed are reduced. if you have a college education the unemployment rate among your group is 4%.”

    Complete BS:

    “Among the members of the class of 2010, just 56 percent had held at least one job by this spring, when the survey was conducted. That compares with 90 percent of graduates from the classes of 2006 and 2007″

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/19/business/economy/19grads.html

    I would guess that whenever you compare relatively new graduates to the entire group of graduates, the more recent ones would have more unemployment and underemployment. That number is higher now though. But both could be true (4% for all grads and 44% for recent grads).

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  38. 38

    By wreckingbull @ 34:

    RE: pfft @ 23 – The only criticism I have heard from you is that Obama did not spend enough, basically a parrot of Krugman’s tired old line. I must have missed all the other criticism.

    And he would have also preferred single payer. I’ll assume from that position that he’s critical of President Obama for not having taken any position at all as to what Obamacare should look like when it was moving through Congress.

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  39. 39
    No Name Guy says:

    By Kary L. Krismer @ 36:

    By Blurtman @ 27:
    RE: wreckingbull @ 19 – At least with regards to Social Security, you should not be able to withdraw more than you put in. And if you die prematurely without accessing SS, your contributions should be returned to your heirs.

    Social security is not an investment account. It’s more A PONZI SCAM

    Fixed it for you Kary. ;-) (And looking forward to pfft’s breathless assertions of unreality on how SS really works)

    You go Blurt. Too bad everyone is like Grandpa Simpson. (“I don’t need it and didn’t earn it, but there will be heck to pay if the checks stop showing up!”)

    For anyone who cares to be honest and look at how SS actually works in the real world, it’s a take from the current workers, the relatively young and poor and turn around and is handed directly to the elderly and relatively rich who were similarly fleeced in their younger days – classic ponzi. Shut off the spigot of the young (the new suckers at the bottom of the pyramid) and the whole thing will implode, just as all ponzi schemes do when the supply of new suckers drys up.

    Oh, and (phtt, this is for you, since you’re obviously financially challenged) an IOU to yourself (e.g. SS, being part of the government, holding IOUs of the Government, e.g. treasury bonds) is NOT an asset. As proof, put $100 in your left pocket. This is the SS “Trust” fund. Now, take the $100 out of the left pocket and put it in the right pocket, your general fund, replace said $100 in the left pocket with an IOU to yourself (a treasury bond). Blow the $100 in the right pocket (the general fund) at the local casino, on booze, ladies of the night, on welfare, a bridge to nowhere, a solar power company, handouts to your bed buddies at GE, or what ever. Now, how much money do you have in the “trust” fund? Yes, that’s right kiddos, IT’S BROKE. The IOU to yourself is worth zero, nadda, nothing, zip, zilch.

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  40. 40
    David Losh says:

    RE: No Name Guy @ 39

    Okay, Okay, Okay, it’s a treasury bond based on the ability of the United States government to pay. Our government has the ability to pay, and then some.

    What pfft keeps saying is that the United States government has income, which they do. The United States government has unlimited income potential that is being deliberately spent on military, health care, and yes, social programs.

    The global economy is changing. For me personally I wouldn’t want to be anywhere else right now, but here, in the United States. A little trade deal with Mexico, and Canada would go a long ways in increasing our government’s potential income, so I don’t see the problem.

    If we can trade with the Pacific Nations, and Asia, we will be even better for it.

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  41. 41
    whatsmyname says:

    RE: No Name Guy @ 39
    “Now, how much money do you have in the “trust” fund? Yes, that’s right kiddos, IT’S BROKE. The IOU to yourself is worth zero, nadda, nothing, zip, zilch.”

    But if No Name Guy buys that IOU (treasury), it magically becomes worth something in his pocket.

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  42. 42
    Scotsman says:

    60% would move if they could. Since they can’t they’ll work to improve what they have:

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/10/us-usa-communities-survey-idUSBRE8390M720120410

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  43. 43
    pfft says:

    By whatsmyname @ 41:

    RE: No Name Guy @ 39
    “Now, how much money do you have in the â��trustâ�� fund? Yes, thatâ��s right kiddos, ITâ��S BROKE. The IOU to yourself is worth zero, nadda, nothing, zip, zilch.”

    But if No Name Guy buys that IOU (treasury), it magically becomes worth something in his pocket.

    the SS trust fund is just like any other Treasury bond owned by a rich guy or a foreigner. something about the idea of the SS trust fund holding treasuries just drives people bonkers though.

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  44. 44
    pfft says:

    By Scotsman @ 28:

    RE: wreckingbull @ 17

    The only thging that will save us is the checks bouncing.

    nope. As I’ve said a million times. all we have to do to stabilize our debt is to repeal the unfunded bush tax cuts fro the rich.

    Economic Downturn and Bush Policies Continue to Drive Large Projected Deficits
    http://www.cbpp.org/cms/?fa=view&id=3490

    shortcut for the lazy:

    http://www.cbpp.org/images/cms//5-10-11bud-f2.jpg

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  45. 45
    pfft says:

    By Scotsman @ 29:

    RE: pfft @ 25

    “Because when you get out of school youâ��ll have a better resume that will pay well and your chances of being unemployed are reduced. if you have a college education the unemployment rate among your group is 4%.”

    Complete BS:

    “Among the members of the class of 2010, just 56 percent had held at least one job by this spring, when the survey was conducted. That compares with 90 percent of graduates from the classes of 2006 and 2007″

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/19/business/economy/19grads.html

    1. that won’t last for every.

    2. why no numbers for 2008 or 2009? I would naturally think it’s tougher to get a job straight out of college.

    3. does that number include those who lost a job or quit a job and went back to school to get a Masters or a Phd?

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  46. 46
    pfft says:

    By wreckingbull @ 34:

    RE: pfft @ 23 – The only criticism I have heard from you is that Obama did not spend enough, basically a parrot of Krugman’s tired old line.

    it’s not tired. it’s simple math. spend enough during a liquidity trap to close the ouptput gap. the output gap this year is $1 trillion dollars. it’s multiple trillions over the last few years.

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  47. 47
    pfft says:

    By wreckingbull @ 35:

    RE: Blurtman @ 27 – Try telling that to the Baby Boomers :) You will be running full-tilt down the road, chased by pitchforks and torches.

    Actually maybe not. According to pfft, they are all retiring early since they are so flush with cash and well-prepared for life at Del Boca Vista, Phase III.

    never said that. stop lying. I only posted a survey. do you have a better one? if so post it and don’t make up stuff that you think I said.

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  48. 48

    By No Name Guy @ 39:

    By Kary L. Krismer @ 36:
    By Blurtman @ 27:
    RE: wreckingbull @ 19 – At least with regards to Social Security, you should not be able to withdraw more than you put in. And if you die prematurely without accessing SS, your contributions should be returned to your heirs.

    Social security is not an investment account. It’s more A PONZI SCAM

    Fixed it for you Kary. ;-) (And looking forward to pfft’s breathless assertions of unreality on how SS really works)

    It’s only a Ponzi scheme because for at least 15 years Congress has been unwilling to do minor things to tweak it, and because for the past year the President has been stealing from it to provide stimulus.

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  49. 49
    Blurtman says:

    RE: pfft @ 43 – Well, they are “Special Treasuries” that are apparently not subject to market forces. For example, don’t you think the interest rate on US Treasuries would skyrocket if President Obama threatened that bondholders might not get paid? Obama did this regarding the “Special Treasuries,” but I doubt that Timmay increased the interest rate on these “Special Treasuries.” So in that regard, they are theoretical. They cannot be traded on the open market. And they are treated like a second class citizen to marketbale US Treasuries by the President. And so it may be natural to assume that the promise to pay the Special Treasuries, by issuing marketable Treasuries, is not as solid as the promise to pay the marketable Treasuries. And why not hold marketable Treasuries in the SS Trust Fund? I guess cause that would increase the deficit by a few trilion. And there is another way to cheat the benficiaries of the “Special Treasuries.” Extend the retirement age, for example. This would be equivalent in a way to changing the 30 year term into a 32 year term. Can’t do that, the bond market would erupt. Can do that to SS recipients, hence, the “Special Treasuries” are a poor cousin to marketable Treasuries.

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  50. 50
    Blurtman says:

    RE: pfft @ 46 – By the way, that last Krugman vingette you posted where he analyzed the increase in employment among the 25-54 year old working population, and asked if that meant we were in a recovery is absolutely poor methodology, and poor reasoning, betraying his corruption and bias. In a cannabaistic downward spiraling economy, one might see the same thing, as the labor market becomes more and more a hirers market. One must suspect that not only is Krugman biased, but lazy, too. Why not look at the change in the particpation rate among the very young, and the older worker, and compare that to his cherry picked 25-54 cohort?

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  51. 51
    David Losh says:

    RE: Blurtman @ 47

    So what? I think we are way down the road from Timmy, and Bernanke, and what they wanted to happen. It makes no difference now anyway.

    Social Security, and Medicare are now a big part of our economy. I can not think of a single scenario where they wouldn’t, or couldn’t be funded.

    Show me where I’m wrong, but show me. No one has said, linked, or shown anything other than hysterics about OMG there is no money, or the checks will bounce. We have a military, and those people are getting checks. We have bank bail outs that netted us nothing but more problems.

    We could even expand Medicare into single payer health care if you are concerned about that. I’d buy, and maybe 53 million other Americans would buy, that.

    There’s a lot that can be done, and will be done. It’s good economy. You take older workers out of the work force so younger people can have jobs. Show me the problem there, because it’s going to be done, it has to be done. If it hasn’t been dismantled before now it will have to continue.

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  52. 52
    Scotsman says:

    RE: David Losh @ 49

    ” I can not think of a single scenario where they wouldn’t, or couldn’t be funded.”

    Really? Not one?

    I bet they will be funded, but at present levels, with dollars that have devalued so much they won’t buy a fraction of what people think they will. Sure, you’ll get your $2200/mo SS check, but a loaf of bread will be $50 and a gallon of milk $85. Good luck.

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  53. 53

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