Here’s a question for the group from Ray (of 500 Realty), who shares an anecdote of a buyer who had their own agent asking for assistance from a listing agent to see a home when their agent was unavailable:
The buyer asked for assistance in seeing his listing because his agent was elsewhere. He reminded the listing agent that he was getting paid 3% (he assumed) to sell the property and should do everything in their power to get it sold. Buyer even offered to show the listing agent his preapproval letter. The listing agent refused.
So my question to Bubble Readers is:
Would you hire an agent to sell your home that REFUSED to show YOUR HOME to EVERY POTENTIAL QUALIFIED CLIENT? Represented or not?
IF I WERE A SELLER, and I found this out, I would IMMEDIATELY terminate my listing agreement!
I think Ray makes a good point. Although it may not strictly be the listing agent’s “job” to show their listing to a buyer who is already represented by another agent, and it’s certainly somewhat of a failing on the part of the buyer’s agent that they aren’t available, but it just seems like something basic that you would do if you were really trying to sell the home.
What say you? If you were a seller, would you expect your agent to accommodate any and all requests from qualified potential buyers? I think I would.
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When hiring ANY agent to sell your home and pay those OUTRAGEOUS listing fees I would strongly recommend all sellers ask their LA this exact question. You never want to limit your potential sale or EVEN WORSE hire someone who would limit it.
If I found this out as a seller I would FIRE my LA quicker then Kary could “walk” to his pc in the morning or clear a bowel obstruction!
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“If you were a seller, would you expect your agent to accommodate any and all requests from qualified potential buyers?”
Yes.
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We also encountered a listing agent unwilling to show his listing when our agent could not get out right away.
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On the other hand, if you have an agent to represent you as a buyer, that agent is supposed to be working for you. If your agent can’t even get to the house to open the door for you to let you in, what good is he? Typically, the total commission is 6%, 3% to the listing agent and 3% to the buyers agent, and comes out of the sales price paid for by the seller. But it’s “built in” to the asking price, so if you’re a buyer, where is the seller getting the money to pay these commissions? From you, the buyer. So it’s sleight of hand: You’re paying the commission, but it appears as though the seller is paying it.
If I were a listing agent, I would endeavor to get the place sold, even if it meant accommodating a buyer’s agent who couldn’t make it. So of course I’d show it and not complain about it, that would fall under my obligation to my seller. But if I were a buyer and had my own agent to represent me, I’d be a little upset that I was being thrown to the wolves, that my own agent couldn’t find the time to show me the house. I wouldn’t feel very well represented.
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If a listing agent holds open house, perhaps he/she does not need to entertain these requests. However, many listing agents do not hold open houses and yet refuse to show properties under such circumstances. Those agents need to be fired, IMHO.
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As I have stated in the past. I don’t like anyone “showing” me anything. Simply open the door and let me do my tour. If I have questions about the home I would like to know the answers from the seller so I can evaluate it for accuracy and truthfulness. Then I rely on my inspection for further concerns . Asking a LA or a BA about a property, that most know nothing about, other then what was told to them by seller is 3rd person verbiage and we all know how facts get distorted as it gets passed person to person.
Do your Own DD friends and realize the only one who truly looks at for your best interests in life should b U!!
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I show my listings to buyers, and if they don’t have an agent I strongly suggest that they get one. It’s in no one’s interest, IMHO, for the buyer to be unrepresented.
The one defense the listing agent could have in this story is a scheduling conflict. Also, sometimes the agent isn’t located near the listing, but even that would depend. Just last week I drove up to Marysville to let an appraiser in because the buyer’s agent wasn’t available.
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By Ray pepper @ 6:
Did you forget who you were signed on as? We can have a new poll: Guess Ray’s “consumer” alter ego on SB! ;-)
Seriously, if your buyer’s agent cannot contribute information to the showing, they should be fired. Most buyers are not that experienced looking at houses, and most agents know that. It’s surprising some don’t.
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I disagree. I find buyers are more astute then ever. They know what they want and are very cautious. Rightfully so. The bubble had educated a new generation of Buyers how truly dysfunctional and useless the typical agent is.
They earned their position right next to the used car sales person as a career! Rightfully so!!!
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Well, if the buyer buys the house based on the showing is the listing agent the procuring cause? If the buyer proceeds with a transaction, and comes to a dispute claiming the listing agent told them something, who’s liability insurance covers that?
Listing agents routinely have open houses, so I don’t see how opening a door is an issue, as long as the communication is between listing, and buyer’s agent.
The buyer contacting the listing agent for the showing is very sub par for a buyer’s agent to do.
I might go along with this whole thing if Ray didn’t talk about OUTRAGEOUS listing fees, or how truly dysfunctional and useless the typical agent is.
This is a very thinly disguised attempt by Ray to make sales at his outrageously high commission structure.
Ray’s comment #6 gaurantees you his company will do nothing for the buyer, or the seller. He will however collect a commission for giving you that gaurantee.
Sorry Ray, nice try, but you are a Broker, and know better. If you want to discuss, great, but park the sales hype.
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Perhaps We Need a Complete “Angies List” of All Types of Real Estate Professionals
With grade marks and past record histories from users.
To possibly weed out the wannabes from the real deals.
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RE: David Losh @ 10 –
David I have said it on numerous occasions and I will say it again..DONT USE ME!
If you are going to LIST utilize an MLS 4 Owners type company and if your going to BUY find an agent who will give you back as much of YOUR money back as possible.
Remember paying less and getting more does NOT equate to lesser standards of service.
Competency on the part of the seller or buyer is!
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By softwarengineer @ 11:
I would go farther and ask Redfin to allow people who have viewed a home to leave comments as well. I don’t know how you would screen out those who are serious about it, but I would find others opinions useful.
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RE: David Losh @ 10 –
and David one more thing…………..Is Tim so stupid as to let me utilize his Bubble to draw sales away from his employer which is IN FACT a competing company?
“This is a very thinly disguised attempt by Ray to make sales at his outrageously high commission structure”
and I agree….3900 minimum with an avg per customer of 10-20 hours is 400 per hour! It is insane…But, not nearly as the SHAM of Agents getting 12-15k for the same work…That is an OUTRIGHT CRIME!
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By softwarengineer @ 11:
It’s a good idea. Right now, pretty much any idiot out there can become a real estate agent, and plenty of them have. There aren’t that many agents out there who are effective advocates on their client’s behalf. Besides the drooling moron types who can barely fill out a form, there are also those agents out there who have a primary goal of making money fast, the slick salesman type. What’s good for them isn’t necessarily good for you. Doesn’t matter if they don’t have satisfied customers, they can always find new suckers.
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RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 8 –
Kary, can you please elaborate on what a buyers Agent “can contribute to a showing” that justifies earning 3% of a commission…
Give me some REAL LIFE examples of what YOU OFFERED to the client that justified the 3% Buyers Agent Commission that was not covered by Inspection, Title, Escrow, or boiler point MLS forms.
“Most buyers are not that experienced looking at houses”…Insane Statement in 2012!
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RE: ray pepper @ 14 –
That’s more sales hype. Try to calm down.
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RE: ray pepper @ 12 –
No one should use your Brokerage for all of the reasons you repeat.
Anyone can provide your menu of services for less, and do more.
The issue is value. redfin isn’t competing with you, nor you with them. They provide an online experience. They are paid for providing a service.
You’re a Broker who is attacking your own business model, so, yeah, I would put you on redfin forums.
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“Right now, pretty much any idiot out there can become a real estate agent, and plenty of them have”
Truer words were never spoken. ;-)
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I’d answer this, but the last thing this thread needs is another comment from a real estate agent. :)
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I bought a home 2 hours away from where my agent lived. This means that I exclusively used listing agents to show homes. Many homes. I never once had this problem.
I think this post is more of an infomercial attempt by Ray.
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By Ray pepper @ 9:
Like you, they don’t know what they don’t know. I’m actually surprised how few buyers even know anything at all about the different types of siding that are out there. Once you get inside the house, there are a lot more things the typical buyer doesn’t know about.
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By softwarengineer @ 11:
The problem is the consumer would typically have no idea. I’ve mentioned in the past the bankruptcy client who thought her divorce attorney was fantastic and the husband’s attorney an idiot. It was actually the other way around, but the client liked her attorney better because her attorney made arguments on her behalf. The same would be true of client/agent relationships.
Picking a good professional to represent you is a very difficult task in most situations.
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By ray pepper @ 12:
But you said above that you can’t contribute anything to the showing. That you should just shut up and step aside so that the buyer can do their thing. How is contributing nothing going to ever have value?
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By ray pepper @ 16:
Most often it involves having the client not buy a property, or not even make an offer on a property. For example, on a topic we’ve discussed here before, steering clients away from bank owned properties on septic, or investors planning on renting away from any property on septic. A mistake there could easily cost a client $20,000, but those properties look attractive to many clients because they are typically priced significantly lower.
Another time a client was interested in a house that had both LP siding and a recalled Pabco roof product. The client didn’t know about either of those things, but after learning about them they did not make an offer on that property.
Another time a client was interested in a house with a Masonite style roof (which btw originally had LP siding too, which was covered with vinyl). He wanted to make an offer on it, in part based on a drive by roof bid he obtained. The roofer’s bid didn’t include sheeting the entire roof with particle board/plywood because he couldn’t determine that was necessary from the drive by.
And relying on inspectors? Yet another area. The worst inspectors are typically the ones where the client finds them based on a referral of a friend or relative. Just the referral process of an inspector by the agent can be valuable (assuming the agent isn’t looking for inspectors that just brush over important conditions). Two of the worst missed condition situations I’ve had in my career were both where the client picked the inspector. One of them could have been deadly.
As to a transaction which actually closed, I’ve had three or four multiple bid situations this year where my client won without bidding the most money. In one case we were outbid by more than both agent’s commissions put together–more than 6%. The bank actually accepted a higher offer, but we kept pushing explaining why our bid was better, and the bank revoked its acceptance of that higher offer. Going back to the prior year, my client won out in a bankruptcy multiple bid offer without making a higher offer because I understood the bankruptcy process and knew when to keep my best offer off the table. Both those houses were what I would consider my clients’ dream houses–and they both got them without having to outbidding another buyer, but most importantly they got the house. That was very important to the client in each situation.
What I find shocking is that a real estate agent wouldn’t see the value that a good buyer’s agent brings. That really says a lot.
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By wreckingbull @ 21:
You might be right about Ray, but I think there are some lazy listing agents out there. I wouldn’t venture a guess on the percentage. His allegation is not entirely unfounded.
Not mentioned in this thread are the listing agents which put comments in their listing that say the selling office commission is some reduced number if the buyer’s agent isn’t present at all showings. That is the type of listing agent I would avoid. The seller’s goal is to sell their house, and that does not in any way further that goal.
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RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 25 – Kary your examples prove my point on so many levels but good job on getting those buyers homes! They simply would have ended up with a bad deal without u!
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RE: wreckingbull @ 21 –
wrecking bull….as Kary says…”you just don’t know what u don’t know.”….Your 1 CASE study on your own purchase is not typical.
Alas we find a problem here…The individual Agent’s SELF VALUED IMPORTANCE of themselves to a transaction. Buyers and sellers will NOT tolerate this 6% SHAM forever. But, until that day AGENTS…………………..Enjoy the Buffet!
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I had Sunny and Greg Butler selling my McMansion in Woodinville. They refused to show the house to the guy who ultimately bought it, so I did. I was shocked. I basically sold my house myself, and had to pay Sunny and Greg for the right to see their plastic smlies and for them to advertise to buyer clients in front of my house. Sick.
They are the biggest realtors in Woodinville. I now use Redfin.
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By Suitably Skeptical @ 29:
First, showing the house yourself is the last thing you should have done. Too many security and liability issues. Ideally, sellers should never meet buyers.
Not familiar with the Woodinville agents, but being well known in an area is not a very good indicator of quality. It most likely just means the agent has a significant advertising budget.
I would also point out that Redfin agents vary in quality too. Lawyers in law firms can vary in quality too. Doctors in clinics can vary in quality too.
Again, picking a good professional to represent you is a difficult task for consumers in many areas, not just real estate.
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RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 30 –
I agree and would not recommend showing the house myself either, Kary. However, I had a huge liability to sell….and it wasn’t happening without me. And, Lo and Behold! I sold it. Where’s my $54,000 payday?
As for Redfin, vs. a good agent, I have yet to meet a good agent. Buyers agents? They are always trying to sell me whatever house I’m in. Sellers agents? Always trying to sell themselves. At least my Redfin buyers agents have been suitably disinterested, which helps me. Not sure what I’ll do next time I sell.
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RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 30 – I’m curious as to why you think that sellers should not meet the buyers. This baffles me.
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RE: redmondjp @ 32 – First, the security concerns. Just having a For Sale sign in front of your house shouldn’t be an invitation to let anyone into it.
More importantly though, liability. If you meet them litigation can be much more drawn out. He said/she said makes summary judgment almost impossible. Yes they could lie about having met you, but most disputes in testimony are not lies. Each side believes they heard/said something.
Also, if you’ve never met there’s a better chance that any liability for misrepresentation would fall on the agent.
Finally, it can give away negotiating position, either as to price or inspection terms.
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By Kary L. Krismer @ 30:
While I appreciate your concern, I have personally bought and sold homes FSBO and I’ve acted as attorney for many, many buyers or sellers in FSBO deals and never had a problem. Yes, I know that is no guarantee of future results. Yes, there’s always a risk that someone will want to sue for misrepresentation. However, a prudent seller can take adequate precautions when it comes to showing their home. And the same goes for representations and warranties and the manner in which the contract is drafted.
I do agree that it is unwise for a typical buyer or seller to proceed with a FSBO deal without any representation especially when it costs so little to have an attorney on board to help with the process.
Many of my clients, in fact, have been other attorneys who were smart enough to realize they only learned enough about real property law to pass the bar exam and that was X number of years ago so better to hire an expert (if I may).
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If an agent that lists any of our properties would refuse to show to a buyer who already has an agent who might be unavailable they would be receiving a cancellation of listing right after that conversation.
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RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 33 –
risk risk risk..there is risk in everything. Personally, I want to ALWAYS speak to the seller in all of my purchases whenever possible. The more data I gain the better. Relying on Agents for information increases risk even more.
MLS4 Owners record speaks for itself with more then a BILLION in sales and I assure you they those closed with agents, attorneys, and conventional sellers.
Its all about DD and I will stress again BUYERS and SELLERS today are far more educated then they were in the past. The PNW has a high populace of educated people and the Buffet ride is ending. Enjoy it while you can Agents! You simply can’t believe in Santa forever filling your stockings!
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RE: ray pepper @ 36 – Ray, your whole office has 3 sales in 6 months and a total of 10 listings that are on the market for 500+ days? And last sale was in 8/03? You serious?
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RE: mukoh @ 37 –
u serious??…let me check that for accuracy…maybe we are spending too much time at the auctions? flipping? vacationing? golly retired agents..hang on..
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RE: ray pepper @ 38 – Sounds really huge.
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I see 9 sales in last 6 months..I know we have 5 pending and will probably wrap the year with 16 or 17 BUYER sales…So lets see…..Agents get minimum 2700 per transaction….office gets 1200…Office brings in about 20k + listing fees so I think we were good for 30k+ into the kitty with no debt. I think you are looking at Selling Office of 3. We do NOT push our $500 or $200 listings. We advise people to go to MLS4Owners because there is not enough dough in it! They have no Agents and that is their bread and butter. However, if people desire to we honor it and accept their pay pal listings.
But, if you look closely you will see a few flips that brought in 50k,55k, and 40k…I’m gonna start cracking the whip on Eric, Nik, Amarjit, Chris, and Eugene. In fact no XMAS party for them since you brought this to my attention!! I DEMAND PRODUCTION! NO MORE VACATIONS!
But, to be honest……I wouldn’t change a thing!…Our numbers are perfect and when we accept someone as a client it is a GIFT to them! We break our Agency agreements..NEVER our Clients!….
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RE: mukoh @ 39 –
Never doubt us….We are an empire:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4tHDmYMo3E
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RE: ray pepper @ 40 – Oh totally not knocking it. I just get a laugh out of production of the new places even like Redfin when you look at overhead and the amount of sales that they have at margins, no wonder profits are nowhere around the corner.
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RE: mukoh @ 42 –
RedFin is a dead fish. They had a small window of opportunity. Investing in any RE Companies will meet the same fate as : http://finance.yahoo.com/q?d=t&s=ZIPR
There will be no more VC added to RF and it will be interesting to see how long it can self-sustain. As rates begin to move up, commissions begin to slide down, and this panic buying begins to subside it will be a LONGGGGGGGGGGG slog for Agents and Mortgage Reps that will take its toll.
Ahhh what a bloody ride it will be with the niche players that have no overhead smiling for years to come.
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Strikes me that this thread has turned into a self promotion fest, a declaration that no model works except for mine. Ray’s talking about how all buyer’s agents are morons, so you might as well use the cheapest one. Marc, who happens to be an attorney who sells real estate, responds how it’s important to have representation as a buyer, but guess what? He says you’re best off with an attorney who sells real estate..Kary, who happens to be a real estate agent, talks about how valuable and useful agents are to their clients, and it goes on. The thread was kind of interesting in the beginning. Now it’s a circle jerk.
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By ray pepper @ 36:
That’s looking at it from the buyer’s point of view, and I wouldn’t necessarily disagree. But I was addressing why a SELLER wouldn’t want to show a house to a buyer. That’s from the seller’s point of view.
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RE: Ira Sacharoff @ 44 – To be fair, Ray asked for my contribution. If unrequested I would have promoted myself as a listing agent–so that I would be on topic! ;-)
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RE: Ira Sacharoff @ 44 – Just looked up the meaning of circle jerk and busted out laughing at it being used in a sentence:
When a group of males all stand in a circle and everyone jerks the person to either the right or the left of them.
“Hey, are you guys up for a circle jerk, lets all go right.”
**”Ok, but I will have to stand out, I’m left handed”**
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RE: ray pepper @ 47 –
Some people I worry about offending. But I also had a feeling it wouldn’t be Ray, that he’d appreciate it.
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RE: Ira Sacharoff @ 48 – when I was looking up your circle jerk on urban dictionary, and was laughing, I then clicked on soggy biscuit which is another variation of the game…I barfed up a lil acid in my mouth after reading it..uggh
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OK, ya’ll win. Your sense of class, wit, compassion, and professionalism have convinced me. I’m never going to use a real estate agent of any kind again. Craigslist ads, a listing service, and my attorney will get it done. I’ll save money, the buyer will save money, and nobody will feel like they have to go home and shower after every encounter.
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In this climate, the listing agent should also be informing the seller that the bank is not eliminating the debt at closing. ALL REALTORS should be informing their sellers to amend the Escrow Instructions to include that the lender MUST provide the original note prior to closing marked “Paid in Full.” This document must be provided with sufficient time prior to closing to authenticate the document. The crimes that are happening on the foreclosure end are also happening on the non-default end of the real estate transaction.
Title companies are reconveying properties with a document called, “Lost Note Affidavit.” What this means, is the original note is not being extinguished when the property is being reconveyed (which means the house gets sold and title is vested in new homeowner’s name.)
In addition to requesting that the lender provide the cancelled note, the Realtor needs to recommend to the buyer of the property to buy the most comprehensive title coverage. I would suggest that the buyer insist that they are provided coverage for all the printed exemptions to title policies. The exemptions are there so the title companies do not have to insure against all the corruption on title that the banks have committed in the last decade.
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