Around the Sound: Sales Slip In More Counties

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Let’s have a look at our housing stats for the broader Puget Sound area. Here’s your July update to our “Around the Sound” statistics for King, Snohomish, Pierce, Kitsap, Thurston, Island, Skagit, and Whatcom counties.

First up, a summary table:

July 2016 King Snohomish Pierce Kitsap Thurston Island Skagit Whatcom
Median Price $555,000 $405,000 $285,000 $290,500 $269,950 $317,000 $285,500 $317,000
Price YOY 14.4% 11.6% 15.4% 3.8% 5.9% 13.6% 5.7% 7.1%
Active Listings 3,554 1,680 2,655 912 1,095 527 522 863
Listings YOY 0.1% -21.6% -14.2% -9.3% -5.1% -13.3% -17.8% -21.7%
Closed Sales 2,803 1,278 1,400 417 503 180 204 299
Sales YOY -3.3% 10.6% 0.6% -6.7% 14.6% -4.8% 6.8% -5.4%
Months of Supply 1.3 1.3 1.9 2.2 2.2 2.9 2.6 2.9

King and Pierce counties saw the biggest bump in prices compared to a year ago, King was the only county that isn’t still bleeding inventory, and a few other counties joined King in seeing sales slip.

Here’s the chart of median prices compared to a year ago. Every county was up, with King, Snohomish, Pierce, and Island all still seeing double-digit gains. The smallest gains were in Kitsap and Skagit counties.

Median Sale Price Single-Family Homes

Listings were down significantly from a year earlier in most counties. King County was the exception to the trend, with listings basically flat from a year earlier. The biggest drop in listings was in Whatcom County, followed very closely by Snohomish County.

Active Listings of Single-Family Homes

A few other counties joined King in the sales decline in July. King, Kitsap, Island, and Whatcom counties all saw fewer sales in July than a year earlier. Pierce was basically flat.

Closed Sales of Single-Family Homes

Months of supply is still terrible for buyers across the board. We’ll need quite a few more months of increasing inventory and decreasing sales before we start to see anything even remotely resembling a trend toward a buyer’s market for months of supply.

Months of Supply Single Family Homes

Finally, here’s a chart comparing the median price in July to the 2007 peak price in each county. King, Snohomish, and Whatcom counties are still the only counties to have prices above the 2007 peak.

Peak Median Sale Price Single-Family Homes

In summary: It’s still a strong seller’s market, and will most likely continue to be at least through the end of this year. We’re seeing a few signs of moderation, but they are fairly weak, and not enough to flip the market very quickly.

If there is certain data you would like to see or ways you would like to see the data presented differently, drop a comment below and let me know.


About The Tim

Tim Ellis is the founder of Seattle Bubble. His background in engineering and computer / internet technology, a fondness of data-based analysis of problems, and an addiction to spreadsheets all influence his perspective on the Seattle-area real estate market.

162 comments:

  1. 1
    tina says:

    The dip in sales could be mainly due to the low inventory from April-June. We should see the sales go up from Sep based on current inventory if my hypothesis is correct. In April-May, the SFH active listing is 10-15% lower in king county than last year from your previous post(http://seattlebubble.com/blog/2016/06/07/may-stats-preview-another-terrible-month-buyers/), so i won’t be too concerned about the current sale numbers.

  2. 2
    uwp says:

    RE: tina @ 1

    That makes sense.

    What a tough market out there.

  3. 3
    redmondjp says:

    By uwp @ 2:

    RE: tina @ 1

    That makes sense.

    What a tough market out there.

    Maybe for buyers . . . not so much for sellers who are looking to leave the area. Get out with your equity while you can. Run for the hills!!!

  4. 4
    jon says:

    60 jobs gone from Moz and 100 from Boeing! It’s all coming apart!!!

  5. 5
    Blurtman says:

    RE: jon @ 4 – Too late! Better stay put.

  6. 6
    Chikin says:

    Funny 60 jobs from seo company moz. The sky is falling! What about Amazon?

  7. 7
    SFraz says:

    HongCouver is coming to a standstill…… “If the bubble has indeed burst, things are about to get very ugly. Eilers says that in the 1980 housing crash, prices dropped by 40 to 60% within a year and took six years to recover. “So your $2 million house became $800,000 in five months. There’s a lot of economists and a lot of wise people that believe that our financial structure is much closer to that structure from a corrections’ point of view,” Eilers explained.” http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-08-18/vancouver-housing-market-implodes-average-home-price-plunges-20-1-month-market-devas

  8. 8
    Sam Zell says:

    I’m looking forward to selling my house next spring 10% higher from here once the market revs up again. Not sure if that will be the top but either next year or the one after it’s going to finally feel bubbly. Looking forward to renting in a cheaper market for a while and being liquid.

  9. 9
    The Tim says:

    RE: Chikin @ 6 – As someone who works at Moz and was not one of the 60 whose jobs were eliminated, I don’t find it particularly “funny.”

  10. 10

    By jon @ 4:

    60 jobs gone from Moz and 100 from Boeing! It’s all coming apart!!!

    Reminds me of Ray Pepper saying “They’re all coming back!”

    BTW, although the Boeing news is undoubtedly very disturbing for those directly affected, as far as Boeing goes it’s hardly news at all. Boeing transfers people in and out constantly, and their Puget Sound employment numbers probably fluctuate by far more than 100 every month. Also, not all of those will lose their jobs.

  11. 11
    Jordan Chang says:

    With the Vancouver foreign investment tax in place, wouldn’t he Chinese just invest in another city? The nearest city is Seattle.

  12. 12

    RE: Jordan Chang @ 11 – Yep, but there may be reasons for them to go to other Canadian cities. Not sure, but Seattle probably has been less expensive for quite some time, so something kept them going to Canada. Maybe they don’t like the US withholding rules when they sell?????

  13. 13
    ess says:

    By Kary L. Krismer @ 12:

    RE: Jordan Chang @ 11 – Yep, but there may be reasons for them to go to other Canadian cities. Not sure, but Seattle probably has been less expensive for quite some time, so something kept them going to Canada. Maybe they don’t like the US withholding rules when they sell?????

    By Jordan Chang @ 11:

    With the Vancouver foreign investment tax in place, wouldn’t he Chinese just invest in another city? The nearest city is Seattle.

    According to my Vancouver BC area in-laws, the reason why Canada is more popular than the US for many foreign investors is that Canadian tax law is more advantageous than US tax law for those with investments in counties around the world. It isn’t because they have sunnier winters than us that they gravitate towards Vancouver BC rather than Seattle. But perhaps with the foreign tax on real estate transactions, more investments will come this way. That tax will not only hurt foreign investments, but the majority of investors who are residents that bought in the past year or so. Some other in-laws of mine just sold a one bedroom condo and bought a two bedroom one – they can’t be thrilled by what suddenly and without warning happened.

  14. 14
    Doug says:

    RE: Sam Zell @ 8 – What exactly in the affordability measures look bubbly to you?

    Real estate is one of the few assets looking like a great long term hold right now.

  15. 15
    gabe says:

    Tim, I have just finished Mohamed Al-Arian’s latest book, ‘The Only Game in Town’ (Al Arian is the chief strategic investment officer at Allianz and former Pimco CEO). In the book he covers many macro themes related to asset class valuations and the probable outlook over the next few years due to 7+ years of Central Bank action and the risks that come with unconventional policy.

    He describes two equally likely outcomes: the bearish one is continued sub-par global growth with a resetting of asset prices to match the true fundamentals of underemployment and low wage growth. The bull case is that fiscal policies are enacted and the cash comes off sidelines to put capital to work reigniting the global economy.

    My question as it pertains to the Seattle bubble – how do you see each of these outcomes impacting Seattle? Obviously the bull case would lead me to believe that I should buy now. But if we are looking at the bearish case I find myself at a loss for pricing in years of possible deflation.

  16. 16
    Eastsider says:

    RE: gabe @ 15 – Hmm… either you make money or lose money. ROFL.

  17. 17
    Sam Zell says:

    @Doug. I am speaking from my own personal circumstances since I live in a fairly expensive home. I do not see the more expensive homes in Seattle going up anywhere near how the starter home category has on a percentage basis last several years. I just don’t see much more room to run on my home value. It will hit a wall soon and if there is a recession and there will be one at some point, you are going to see a correction in home prices.

  18. 18
    Anonymous Coward says:

    RE: gabe @ 15 -“: the bearish one is continued sub-par global growth with a resetting of asset prices to match the true fundamentals of underemployment and low wage growth”… With respect to the local economy, just how great of a difference do you think there is between housing prices and true employment and wages? Hint: I don’t think there is much, if any. And if there is, I would expect “deflation” to look like flat lined nominal prices while 2% inflation does it’s thing.

    The big driver for pricing here will be supply and demand. The run up in prices has been due to a lowering of interest rates and an increase in high wage jobs without a corresponding increase in housing units. Yes, the bears will argue that interest rates have to come up and that will put downward pressure on pricing. But the only way you get rising interest rates is if you’re no longer in the bearish deflationary scenario*, in which case you have incomes and employment rising along with interest rates.

    *Or do you really think the fed is going to *raise* rates while employment and wages are trending down?

  19. 19
    Joe says:

    In Vancouver a lot of people bought at 14x gross salary. If the market goes down a modest 30%, they lose 4 years of their salary. How would you like to work 4 years for nothing? In Seattle most people are buying at 6x gross salary, so an equivalent drop would cause them to only lose about 2 years of salary, and say 20 years of savings if they save 10% per year. Not too bad.

  20. 20
    George says:

    Why should I care about short term fluctuations in the market if I am going to spend the same amount of money on either mortgage or rent? We put 10% on a house last year and our monthly expenses are about the same as we would pay for rent for the same type of property. Yes, I have to do the lawn and fix a few small things here and there but it is worth for the good feeling to own your home and not having to move your family at your landlords whim.
    I have no plans on selling in the next 10 years, and if something happens, I prefer renting it out. I am not a speculator and will not try to time the market. I focus on increasing my salary vs saving a few bucks a month if the market goes down. It may go down, it may go up, at the end of the day I don’t give a s***, invest for the long term and enjoy my life.

  21. 21
    Blurtman says:

    RE: Joe @ 19 – You can’t live in an underwater stock.

  22. 22

    By Anonymous Coward @ 18:

    The big driver for pricing here will be supply and demand. The run up in prices has been due to a lowering of interest rates and an increase in high wage jobs without a corresponding increase in housing units.

    There’s also the issue of delayed buying, by people who were afraid to buy after 2009. That pushes demand above “normal” levels.

  23. 23
    Blurtman says:

    The 5 month make-over almost doubles the price. Flip that shack.

    08/18/16 Listed for sale $825,000+71.9%
    03/24/16 Sold $480,000+2.1%

    21515 SE 22nd St,
    Sammamish, WA 98075
    4 beds 4 baths 2,550 sqft

    http://www.zillow.com/homes/21515-SE-22nd-St,-Sammamish,-WA-98075_rb/

  24. 24
  25. 25
    GoHawks says:

    Funny hearing the local bears talk about the tax in Vancouver. Won’t that just push more buyers down here?

  26. 26
    Joe says:

    RE: GoHawks @ 24

    The short answer is “no”. Talk of the bubbles popping is scaring the heck out of investors, who already knew real estate was pricy. People will sit on cash before buying real estate at this point in time. Once these things start, they don’t reverse, and they don’t stop. The 2008 bubble popped in the glamour cities first, just like now. It took 6-12 months to hit the mainstream. I remember prices started leveling off in Spring 2007. Prices dropped hard from the peak in later 2007 as builders had to unload their inventory. As prices started falling, the defaults and foreclosures started. It was a continual downward slide for four years. The disbelievers followed it all the way down to bottom, always 6 months behind the market, never believing it was happening.

    One the trend is broken, look out below.

  27. 27
    GoHawks says:

    RE: Joe @ 25 – Hi Joe. You are implying that buying activity in that city just dried up on it’s own or those buyers no longer exist. The drop off in sales is due to a serious tax increase. Many of the buyers impacted still want to buy something. My assumption is they just look elsewhere.

  28. 28
    StupidLifeDecisions says:

    By GoHawks @ 26:

    RE: Joe @ 25 – Hi Joe. You are implying that buying activity in that city just dried up on it’s own or those buyers no longer exist. The drop off in sales is due to a serious tax increase. Many of the buyers impacted still want to buy something. My assumption is they just look elsewhere.

    Right now, I agree with you. I hope this doesn’t end up happening though. I’m really tired of the housing prices here. I like Joe’s theory better, since it’s more advantageous for me.

  29. 29
    Lester Halt says:

    We have the worst traffic given Seattle’s size in the country, the worst weather, and now because of tech and the influx of douchebags forced to move here cause they couldn’t afford SF, the worst people in the country as well. All of these facts point to one thing, paying three times what a house is worth in Sesttle is just logical. It’s a bastion for techpreneuers who’s only waking desire is using ones and zeros to exponentially widen the wealth gap. And where else is your only basketball team female and soccer more than a ridiculous euro trash sport you’re supposed to outgrow by age 10.

    From here on out, if you purchase a home, it means you’re f&%ing retarded with money, and because only hyper-specialized, one-dimensional, socially inept, Audi-driving, soccer commies are valued in this so-called “new” economy, sellers will never run out of fools to sell to. The cycle of stupidity continues.

    NOTE: According to Zillow, it’s been 12,496 days since a white middle class family purchased a rambler for an appropriate price.

  30. 30
    Blurtman says:

    If we are heading into an economic slowdown, over the longer term, that may lower prices. The incoming president is frequently the bag holder for previous can kicking.

  31. 31

    By Blurtman @ 28:

    The incoming president is frequently the bag holder for previous can kicking.

    And visa versa.

  32. 32
    GoHawks says:

    RE: StupidLifeDecisions @ 27 – I think that is how 95% of us on here evaluate the market and future outcomes……..by how they impact us, not by what we think will really happen!

  33. 33
    Joe says:

    Good read. Sales down 10% nationwide. Down more than 20% in many cities.

    http://wolfstreet.com/2016/08/21/good-reason-not-to-panic-about-plunging-home-sales-in-july/

  34. 34
    pfft says:

    Just a thought on a Sunday night. Most of the time stocks are hitting an all-time high. With real estate it’s probably the same. It’s more than just the Fed…

    Do you wonder why you never hear how Fed policies are only inflating stocks, home values and commodities anymore? You know why? Commodities got hit hard for awhile. Commodities are still below their summer of 2008 levels. Most people when they argue just throw stuff at the walls and hope something sticks. That is why commodities are no longer mentioned. The goalposts are just moved and they are on to the next argument. Fact free and no memory! Thinking about why commodities have tanked even though the Fed is printing money would just be too hard for some people. THey’ve made up their mind, facts be damned. anything evidence that gets in they way of their beliefs is forgotten until it can be used again.

  35. 35
    pfft says:

    I have also been thinking why homes values are so high. I think when interest rates were higher it held home values in check. But with lower rates the adjustment has been made to home values.

    We are also in the midst of a period where there the number of occupants per dwelling has been falling for awhile.

    We are also in a period of time when in some cities whole buildings are being converted into single family homes…often the occupant doesn’t live there most of the year.

    There is one more point that people don’t know. Our cities as a whole are safer, cleaner and healthier than they have been in decades, if not in recorded human history when it comes to those factors. In NYC garbage was thrown into the streets until the middle of the 1800s I believe. The city was 200+ years old by then We don’t have pandemics in cities like we used to. Our cities are safer than they’ve been in 50 years. Pollution, mostly notably from carbon sources, is in decline. It’s more advantageous to live in cities than maybe ever before. Could that be the reason home prices have begun their march?

  36. 36
    Mike says:

    By Joe @ 25:

    RE: GoHawks @ 24

    The short answer is “no”. Talk of the bubbles popping is scaring the heck out of investors, who already knew real estate was pricy. People will sit on cash before buying real estate at this point in time. Once these things start, they don’t reverse, and they don’t stop. The 2008 bubble popped in the glamour cities first, just like now. It took 6-12 months to hit the mainstream. I remember prices started leveling off in Spring 2007. Prices dropped hard from the peak in later 2007 as builders had to unload their inventory. As prices started falling, the defaults and foreclosures started. It was a continual downward slide for four years. The disbelievers followed it all the way down to bottom, always 6 months behind the market, never believing it was happening.

    One the trend is broken, look out below.

    The 2008 bubble popped in the glamour cities first, just like now.

    That’s not what I recall. The bubble pop started in the less glamorous suburbs and exurbs and hit those areas the hardest.

  37. 37
    Joe says:

    Mike, you must recall that Vegas, Phoenix, and California and Florida were hit extremely hard. Home prices plummeted 40-60% in those areas. Also, Washington Mutual was the first big bank to fold due to the propensity of Seattle residents to overextend themselves with loans for homes, private education, and expensive cars. I wouldn’t say Seattle residents are conservative when it comes to finances, so when trouble starts, we got a problem

  38. 38
    Cap''n says:

    RE: pfft @ 33

    You are right, I think. Lower interest rates have been priced into home values. But long term, I think it will play out like how the high cost of oil was priced in and never backed out. Remember when it was 150 plus a barrel and you got every industry raising prices? Of course they had to, and they told the consumer, sorry your plane ticket, groceries, anything that arrives by transport, we have to raise prices just to stay afloat… Goes to 50 a barrel and you still get 1.5 percent price increases, no correction. Sure the pump prices went down, but everyone else just held steady. Same, I think, with home values. Low rates were priced in, but so is the total amount people owe. Just because the rate environment changes, I can’t imagine equity holders backing off in price demand unless it is a crisis or if they can take a hit and still margin positive. Folks will hold if they can, limiting supply, keeping prices up. It won’t be 2008 because now everyone knows, just ride it out if at all possible…

  39. 39

    By Joe @ 35:

    Also, Washington Mutual was the first big bank to fold due to the propensity of Seattle residents to overextend themselves with loans for homes, private education, and expensive cars. I wouldn’t say Seattle residents are conservative when it comes to finances, so when trouble starts, we got a problem

    I can only assume you don’t know about Washington Mutual. It expanded into other parts of the country, including some of those areas that got hit hard. For example, I know they were in the Phoenix area because I remember seeing their signs there. They made extremely risky mortgages in those areas. And they totally ignored their department which was warning them about the risk of their positions.

    But the main reason it went down so early was a Senator from NY state caused a bank run.

    Seattle, or even Washington had little to do with it (prices hadn’t declined that much when it went down). Homestreet Bank, which was not quite as diverse, got into some problems, but survived, as did BECU.

  40. 40
    [troll] says:

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  41. 41

    RE: Sam Hunter @ 38 – I know I shouldn’t feed the troll, but it’s pretty pathetic how desperate you are for attention that you have to through my name out there to get some attention. Feel better now?

  42. 42
    Ray Pepper says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 10

    But, they all did come back Kary! Through shortsale, foreclosure, and Conventional sales. *They all came back and are priced at their current market value! The bag holders are happy because home values have risen and those who were not braindead, and let theirs go, are quite happy. Their credit has been back over 700 for the last 2-3 years! Most rebought a couple years ago and life moved forward!

    *most came back but then there are the lingering ones. We are still holding 2 of these “lingerers” . mediation takes years in this State when the lenders have nothing and the loan has been transferred in excess of 5 times!”

    Btw Kary did you hear about the ” checks in the mail” that all of us received who were defrauded by the past Lenders. You would of jumped off the Narrows bridge, mid span, if you saw what we got. Good Lord!

  43. 43
    [troll] says:

    R: < hrf='#cmmnt-257164' rl="nfllw">Kry L. Krsmr @ 39 –
    Kry nly mntn yr nm bcs y r th bggst ffndr nd bggst lsr n trms f bng wrng.

    ts nt tht hrd t lk bck nd s tm nd tm gn, wht cms t f ths crsty ld lps s jst jk. f smn crtd n nvrs Kry KrspyKrm Krmr ndx thy wld b rch mn.

    ts yr sd lttl g tht kps spwng xprt dvc. sk, wht xprt s wrng ll th tm?!

  44. 44
    Justme says:

    Meanwhile, redfin has many not-so good explanations why national home sales 11% in July

    https://www.redfin.com/blog/2016/08/home-sales-fell-11-percent-in-july-but-theres-good-reason-not-to-panic.html

  45. 45
    Ray Pepper says:

    I haven’t been here on Bubble for a couple years and Kary is STILL getting beat up on!!!??

    What’s up with all of you? Maybe his tone is not very pleasing but he held his property through the crash. That’s worth something correct? Morally correct decisions should NOT go unnoticed!!

  46. 46
    Justme says:

    (I was trying to get an edit in above before the time ran out, had to repost).

    Meanwhile, Redfin has many not-so good explanations why national home sales fell 10.9% in July.
    Specifically, nationwide sales count was -12% momo and -10.9% yoyo.

    https://www.redfin.com/blog/2016/08/home-sales-fell-11-percent-in-july-but-theres-good-reason-not-to-panic.html

    No good excuses about why median prices fell. Seattle clocked in at -2.4% momo and +9.8% yoyo.

  47. 47

    By Sam Hunter @ 41:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 39
    Kary I only mention your name because you are the biggest offender and biggest loser in terms of being wrong.

    Name one time I’ve been wrong. Most others here panic over every little thing. I’m practically the only one here who remains calm.

    But name one instance I’ve been “wrong” on anything.

  48. 48
    Justme says:

    Chirp…chirp…chirp…all I hear is crickets while the housing inflation cheerleaders are trying to digest the rather indigestible new market data.

  49. 49

    By Ray Pepper @ 43:

    I haven’t been here on Bubble for a couple years and Kary is STILL getting beat up on!!!??

    What’s up with all of you? Maybe his tone is not very pleasing but he held his property through the crash. That’s worth something correct? Morally correct decisions should NOT go unnoticed!!

    LOL, give it up Ray. You’re either insolvent or you lied to the IRS when you did your offer in compromise. Which is it? And what’s it like living with a circa 500 credit score?

    But hey, I guess I should get financial advice form the guy who doesn’t have a pot to piss in (which is a reference to what someone else here said about David Losh–amazing how people here think that complete failures are investment geniuses). You’re in no position to judge me because your financial situation has been a disaster.

  50. 50
    Ray Pepper says:

    688 Equifax. 712 Experian 732 transunion. just pulled last week because I finally decided on a new Toyota Tacoma TRD off-road. 36200 at a juicy 5.02% rate with Sound Credit Union. Check out the pics on FB. Now that’s competent spending!

    Oh anyway. Pot to piss in? I won’t start that again with you. You only own 1 home that is leveraged and that says everything. People with no portfolios should give no advice on real estate or what to buy.

    Yes a Chp 13 to force mediations take their toll on credit but it’s very temporary Kary when you have zero debt and you don’t follow through with it. Stall tactics? Utilizing the system? Say what you will. IRS judgement non collectable post 10 years? They are off the radar. You see Kary, you must learn the field your playing on in order to competently understand HOW to play the game.
    As you stated in the past “. You just don’t know… What you don’t know”.

  51. 51
    Doug says:

    RE: Justme @ 46 – 1 down month? Nothing moves in a straight line.

    Mortgage rates…still at an all-time low. Inventory…still non-existent. Economy…doing fine.

    The only thing that has changed is that there is now a lot of Chinese money looking for a new home. There’s a better chance that we double from here than decline by the 40% you’re hoping for.

  52. 52

    By Ray Pepper @ 48:

    688 Equifax. 712 Experian 732 transunion.
    . . .
    Yes a Chp 13 .

    How gullible you think people are here (that’s obviously a rhetorical question, because some people here are extremely gullible). Being a defendant in a judicial foreclosure on a long delinquent mortgage and a recent Chapter 13 does not add up to a high credit score.

    But whatever happened to your claim that you’d never file bankruptcy?

    Although it wouldn’t surprise me that you could get a new vehicle. I had at least one Chapter 13 client get a vehicle while they were actually in bankruptcy that they shouldn’t have gotten because the auto dealer was too stupid to know that they shouldn’t do that.

    Finally, leveraged? You really need to learn how to read Realist what what a HELOC is. Amazing that you represent buyers not even knowing the basics. How do you negotiate when you don’t have a clue what the seller’s situation is?

  53. 53
    Ray Pepper says:

    Kary … R u serious?? Heloc? We wrapped all the mortgages with Helocs and then let them go in 2007. How do you think we got our cash back after each purchase? It’s asset protection (encumbering) but that’s beyond your scope. When the assets depreciated then the Helocs suffered greatly. Didn’t really matter when you got your initial investment back. Get the picture?

    And Kary please. With your Heloc on your mortgage thats draining the equity you have. Hopefully you didn’t Max it out. We always took all the cash out of them the day they funded.
    Chp 13 was done but only to preserve the value of 2 Mortgages. I was hesitant but went down, paid the 100.00 and It stopped the foreclosure of 2 Pierce County Assets. It placed it back in mediation, continued the almost 10 years of Lender payment of Mortgage, taxes, and insurance and still no sale date in sight. In addition credit score dropped 100 points but with no debt 2 lines of credit with zero balances your credit scores sky rocket after its dismissed which it was 30 days later. I believe this can be done 1 additional time if the situation dictates.

    Eventually these last 2 Lenders will see it our way! Both are even going Judicial. That will be a party. Imagine making 3 trial payments in 2012, bank accepting them via contract, then transferring the loan to another lender and not honoring the note THEY produced!! That will be a great day in Court! We just keep waiting salivating. Everything In writing, documented, and fraud perpetrated on an “unsuspecting” homeowner!

  54. 54

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 10
    Yeah Like 737 Outsourcing

    To China.

    Their stock keeps riding high as Seattle gets the stomach punch.

  55. 55
    Anonymous Coward says:

    RE: Ray Pepper @ 48 – You didn’t answer the important question, which some of us are dying to know: “You’re either insolvent or you lied to the IRS. Which is it?”

  56. 56

    RE: Ray Pepper @ 51 – Well Ray, at least you’re honest about some things–you’re the one who noted you did an offer in compromise, and yesterday a Chapter 13, and now a second judicial foreclosure. I wonder if that bank is being stupid enough to waive a deficiency too?

    Very odd decision on the part of the first bank, because the only benefit to their waiving a deficiency is a 4 month shorter redemption period. They’ve wasted probably about 4x that time by just dragging their feet. I know banks don’t make the best decisions, but you would think they would do better when they’re being advised by attorneys. I have an alternative theory on that, but I’ll keep it to myself.

    You do realize though that even if the banks proceed all the way and waive a deficiency that you’ll owe taxes on the amount waived–unless of course you’re insolvent, which is likely the case. But unless you are insolvent, your free rent is not really free rent, but that’s something you should know because a bank releasing you from debt somehow may very well be what lead to your offer in compromise. It sure wasn’t income from selling real estate! ;-)

    BTW, you can quit worrying about the balance of my HELOC. Total debt against my house right now is in the 4 figure range.

  57. 57
    Ray Pepper says:

    Oh I’m sorry. Not insolvent and I lie to nobody. File tax returns every year and ALWAYS pay what is owed!

  58. 58
    Ray Pepper says:

    I don’t worry about your debt Kary. I’m fairly certain you owe nothing on it. You appear quite conservative like my brother, probably pay cash for everything, use no leverage, and I remember you stating you still drive an old pick up. Nothing wrong with that lifestyle.

    Kary, I’m also certain you know my portfolio. A simple search on Realist discloses everything and the LLCs. The portfolio is the best it has ever been with the surge in real estate prices. You saw me sell the 2 gig harbor homes 9 months ago and the recent flip. Market is too strong not to take profits and shuffle dough around. Just bought another in the 98332 and adding a massive garage as we speak which just maybe my final resting place. Just got get the last kid through Stadium HS. It’s either 98332 or 89403 in retirement. Just turned 50 and still deciding.

  59. 59

    By Ray Pepper @ 55:

    Oh I’m sorry. Not insolvent and I lie to nobody. File tax returns every year and ALWAYS pay what is owed!

    Which is why you did the offer in compromise, right? ;-)

    (BTW, I’m pretty sure that filing and paying future taxes is a condition of your offer in compromise. If so, the delay by that bank is a huge favor. If I’m right and they delay long enough that it no longer impacts your offer in compromise you should send their attorneys a pizza in appreciation! That assumes that they haven’t already sent you a 1099 on that transaction as may have been required by the IRS regs.)

  60. 60

    As long as we’re dwelling on the past and prior positions, I’ve noticed that recent appellate cases out of Washington involving foreclosure defenses have not been going well for the borrowers. I’m not sure one has prevailed in the last two years.

    After the Washington Supreme Court’s decision on MERS deeds of trust I was surprised by the lack of any significant change in industry practices, but apparently that was justified. About the most significant thing that seems to have happened is the state has cracked down on trustee entities which don’t have a physical presence in Washington.

    Anyway, the future there too was quite different than what many here were predicting.

  61. 61
    Blurtman says:

    RE: Ray Pepper @ 51 – Had you taken out CDS’ on the securitized mortgages, you could be Hank Paulson.

  62. 62
  63. 63
    Blurtman says:

    New realtor sales campaign roll out.

    Talk about closing the deal! Realtor is busted for having sex with a man in a house she’d just sold after cops catch them in a ‘passionate rendezvous’
    Kayla Marisa Seloff, 22, had sold the house in Friendswood, Texas, on Friday
    But police found her at the house with Joshua Leal, 27, on Saturday
    Seloff told them she and Leal were married and had bought the house
    She came clean after police escorted her to her car to get ID and found marijuana
    The new homeowners filed charges as they did not approve the couple to be there and the pair have been charged with criminal trespassing
    In a biography on a real estate site, Seloff boasts of her ‘honesty and integrity making her an unparalleled partner for success in real estate’

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3754733/Realtor-busted-having-sex-man-house-d-just-sold.html#ixzz4IAldRlIR

  64. 64

    RE: Blurtman @ 61 – Must be one of those 6% full service agents. ;-)

  65. 65
    Justme says:

    RE: Blurtman @ 61

    This is what you get when you hire a realtor named Sell-off!

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 62

    Only she appears to have forgotten that the FULL service is supposed to be for the seller, or the buyer, and not some OTHER dude :)

  66. 66
    Justme says:

    RE: Doug @ 49

    >>The only thing that has changed is that there is now a lot of Chinese money looking for a new home.

    Have you not read that the Chinese government is getting very strict about enforcing the $50k/year limit? Also, did you notice what Kary said in post 12 above about withholding taxes on US capital gains by foreigners?

    Here are some relevant sections from the IRS regulations:

    The transferee must deduct and withhold a tax on the total amount realized by the foreign person on the disposition. The rate of withholding generally is 15% (10% for dispositions before February 17, 2016).

    A foreign corporation that distributes a U.S. real property interest must withhold a tax equal to 35% of the gain it recognizes on the distribution to its shareholders.

    Reference: https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/firpta-withholding

    So, the demand based on ill-gotten china money is falling, AND whatever demand remains will rather go to Calgary and Edmonton than to the US.

  67. 67
    Justme says:

    A good source for factual information about the availability and prevalence of China-sourced hot-money in Canada (Vancouver), Australia, New Zealand and elsewhere is Ben Jones’s blog. For example,

    http://thehousingbubbleblog.com/?p=9750

    Almost every week, there are reports of how China hot-money is becoming more scarce.

  68. 68

    RE: Justme @ 65
    The Chinese Investors Face Prison or Death if They Buy Foreign RE

    Sounds like their vetting process against this law is improving?

  69. 69
    Justme says:

    RE: softwarengineer @ 66

    Was that from some other source? It was not in my link. Anyway, I don’t think it is owning foreign property that is illegal, but rather the smuggling out of money to pay for it.

  70. 70

    By Justme @ 63:

    Only she appears to have forgotten that the FULL service is supposed to be for the seller, or the buyer, and not some OTHER dude :)

    Maybe that’s how the town got its name?

  71. 71
    m-s says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 68
    Hi-
    Actually, the town was founded by Quakers (viz., The Society of Friends) in the late 1800’s.

  72. 72
    Anonymous Coward says:

    RE: Ray Pepper @ 55 – How does one get the IRS to agree to an offer in compromise without being insolvent? Or, rather, how does one get the IRS to agree to an offer in compromise AND to agree to let one keep a comfortable pile of assets?

  73. 73
    Ray Pepper says:

    Well in my case we must look at the time this took place. When assets were underwater and there was little to no value when you factor in the cost to sell that played a huge part in addition to documented medical expenses from wife’s cervical cancer. So when that was all presented pennies on the dollar gets accepted. I assume when anyone shows hardship the IRS is quite friendly. I did include equity in partnerships LLCs but because of multiple partners that was NOT a factor that had a basis in my offer.

  74. 74
    Ray Pepper says:

    RE: Anonymous Coward @ 70 – I also remember the attorney using some doubt as to liability clause and that much info was not even required. They didn’t seem too much interested in the medical bills or the partnerships. I think it has something to do with that clause.

  75. 75

    RE: Ray Pepper @ 72RE: Ray Pepper @ 71RE: Anonymous Coward @ 70 – Also they’re probably looking at the debt on the two properties being judicially foreclosed, which on one at least far exceeds its value, and Ray probably is not counting that in his solvency analysis.

    I’m actually shocked/relieved that Ray actually used a professional to do the Offer in Compromise.

  76. 76
    ess says:

    http://www.marketwatch.com/story/existing-home-sales-wobble-as-inventory-stays-tight-and-prices-march-higher-2016-08-24

    Interesting article for a number of reasons:

    Availability of single family residences is tight all around the country.

    Sales have declined YOY, but one commentator indicated it was not a desire to buy, but a lack of interesting inventory that is keeping people on the sidelines. It certainly isn’t high interest rates.

    Prices are 5% higher in the US – higher than wages and rents. Higher home prices and less sales should keep the rental market fairly healthy.

    The Puget Sound housing prices have been increasing more than the US average. That may be a result of more demand and less availability in an area that is perceived to be a good place to live and work. The good news for homeowners is that the rest of the country is also experiencing both higher prices and limited inventory, and thus higher prices are not just a Puget Sound phenomena. It will be interesting to observe prices as well as rents in this area over the next year.

  77. 77
    Ray Pepper says:

    It was cheap .. Why not… I have no problems using “professionals” if it’s cheap. Unless your talking healthcare. Then I blow the dough on the best!

    For instance and real life quotes…” I’m 99% sure you do not have cervical cancer”. Opinion 1. Then when you hear the news you want very few get a second opinion. We did. 2nd Doctor. ” you have stage 2. Must take immediate action”.

    Really? You both are idiots. Bammm right to Swedish in SEATTLE. Confirmed stage 3. Wife would be dead if we listened to first doctor. Trust no professionals. Get second opinions. And even 3rd!!

  78. 78
    Voight-kampff says:

    Ray Pepper is back!
    Is he back because he is worrying the housing market is in trouble?
    Btw Ray, you have a fan-boy on this site. His name is Erik. He gushes about you all the time.

  79. 79
    Ray Pepper says:

    Good. U can never have enough fans!!! Find those Gems, buy those Toyotas, let’s spend some money! Party light is on!!! If market ever corrects again and Dow hits 6k we can do it all again! We can Let all the crap go one more time and reload!!

  80. 80

    RE: Ray Pepper @ 75 – That you found a cheap OIC attorney does cause me some concern.

    In my attorney practice I had dozens and dozens of clients with tax issues, but for very tiny percentage was an OIC a good solution. And there’s only one attorney I know in the Seattle area I would trust to make that determination because he can determine whether the tax is legitimate in the first place, knows the enforcement powers, knows the bankruptcy remedies and knows about OIC issues.

    Unfortunately taxes and OIC are sort of like owners of underwater houses and short sales. If you go to an attorney that only knows and does OIC they will recommend an OIC, just as if a homeowner goes to an agent that does short sales, they will recommend a short sale, or if they go to an attorney that does bankruptcy they will recommend a bankruptcy. It’s very hard to get advice from someone who understands all the issues, and that advice might not be cheap.

  81. 81

    RE: Justme @ 67
    Same Thing

    You progressive types hate truth if it disagrees with you?

    I suppose you also find the Clinton Foundation ethical? LOL

    You and Gates and the rest of you pig headed progressives [or Fascists?] are all alike. Vote for Hillary anyway…..LOL

  82. 82
  83. 83
    Justme says:

    RE: softwarengineer @ 79

    Jeez, I thought we could be anti-bubble friends. Not in the mood to talk about Clinton. She gives me a headache.

  84. 84

    RE: Justme @ 81 – For your headache I would prescribe a six figure donation to the Clinton Foundation. For anything more she requires at least 7 figures.

  85. 85
    Erik says:

    RE: Voight-kampff @ 76
    Ray helped save me a crap load of money last crash. Corndogs and Ray know about investing in real estate. I read everything they say and think about it.

  86. 86
    Erik says:

    RE: Voight-kampff @ 76
    Ray helped save me a crap load of money last crash. Corndogs and Ray know about investing in real estate. I read everything they say and think about it. They both know a lot more than me. I wish they’d mentor me.

  87. 87

    RE: Erik @ 86 – Yes, that way you too can be insolvent when you’re middle age, do your own offer in compromise on taxes you can’t pay and be sued on mortgage debt you can’t pay, and still be facing more discharge of indebtedness income in the future.

    Given how gullible you are, you probably are a graduate of Trump University.

    Edit: I forgot to mention file your own Chapter 13! The benefits of that mentoring will be endless!

  88. 88
    Ray Pepper says:

    Kary, you seem to really not know what you are speaking of or how offer and compromise works. Facing discharge of indebtedness in the future? You obviously did nothing in regard to real estate law , foreclosures judicial/non judicial, insolvency, and IRS rights we have as tax payers. Or… Like me with my RN license you haven’t practiced so long your not up to date on current practices on all the aforementioned.
    Insolvency? Again. Look up the address to my Brokerage building I own. Find the LLC and match that LLC with the ” insolvent” properties you state. You will count 13 in Pierce County alone. Then cross check if there are any mortgages owed? Zero! Was I up to 23 or 31 at some point? Perhaps? Am I going to let these 2 little Pierce County gems go without further battles? Probably not! They are income producing (albeit a decade of non payment) makes that obvious but when a loan gets transferred 5-7 times AFTER accepting a trial modification you can be damn sure the proof WITH RECEIPTS will be brought before the judge! Salivating for the day in court. Should be sometime in 2017-18. In the meantime $$$ renters gotta rent!
    Check Realist. I know you love too!

  89. 89

    RE: Ray Pepper @ 88 – You’re the one who doesn’t know how things work, which is amazing since I already mentioned it above.

    You’re the one who mentioned two judicial foreclosures. I only know of the one, but as I mentioned, unless they already sent you a 1099 on that one, you’ll have future discharge of indebtedness income. If you can’t pay the tax when due that might trigger the prior tax being owed again (not sure that’s still a term of OIC transactions, but it used to be.) And as an aside, if you did get a 1099 back then it might have made sense to contest it back then, since the debt wasn’t actually discharged, but other things might have been in play.

    You only think you’re getting free money, but instead you’re getting a future tax liability.

    But in any case, please don’t teach Eric these things. He doesn’t need to be led down the path of ruin that you’re on.

  90. 90
    Ray Pepper says:

    Oh good lord. Coming from a guy that has one property leveraged with a heloc that he lives in giving real estate/investment advice. That’s akin to getting medical advice from a biology student at Tacoma Community College. Bring on the ruin! ??

    Btw. How can I be headed to financial ruin if I’m insolvent now?

  91. 91
    Erik says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 89
    I followed mr. Peppers advice last bubble and it worked great. Hard to argue with success. My new dream is to own 10 homes and not pay the mortgage on them for 5 years while collecting rent. I will go buy houses for cash at the auction as rent comes in.

    Ray helped me think the effective way. Until Ray is wrong, I’ll do what he says.

    It seems like Ray knows how to make money in real estate and you do not.

  92. 92
    Ray Pepper says:

    Oh. Good god!! ????

  93. 93

    By Ray Pepper @ 90:

    Oh good lord. Coming from a guy that has one property leveraged with a heloc that he lives in giving real estate/investment advice. That’s akin to getting medical advice from a biology student at Tacoma Community College. Bring on the ruin! ??

    Btw. How can I be headed to financial ruin if I’m insolvent now?

    Ray, just because I no longer invest (other than my house, which I don’t consider an investment) doesn’t mean I don’t about investing in real estate. When I was 12 years old I knew the difference between buying subject to a mortgage and assuming it. I’ve forgotten more about investing in real estate than you ever will know. If you knew anything about me, you’d know that.

    I don’t think real estate agents can function well if they are also investing (“getting high on their own supply”). Most of those who were doing that back in 2007 got into trouble. And speaking of which, let’s not forget that you own that house in Tacoma that is in foreclosure because you bought it to flip at the wrong time and ended up getting stuck with it. Hardly an real estate investment genius by any means.

    Finally, you really need to learn what the term leveraged means. Seriously, wasn’t it Losh that also didn’t know what that term meant? What is it with agents Erik likes? Tax liens and failing to understand basic real estate terms? Wow. Talk about a contrarian indicator of agent quality.

  94. 94
    Ray Pepper says:

    Ok. Let’s talk about the Tacoma house. Paid 300k. Brick Tudor. Put 20% down with Wa Mu pick a pay option arm. 40 year amort. Lived in it about 2 years. Refinanced it when it appraised at 430k ish. Now owed 400k to Countrywide. Took my initial capital back plus about 38k 1.5 years post purchase. Moved out and it became a rental during market crash. Almost 7 years later still a rental. Biggest cash cow I ever had. Did I plan on this no. Did I attempt loan mods yes. Did I do my due diligence yes. But, it was only a house. Always comfortable because I knew I had my original capital back. In fact every property I bought I always arranged my original capital back. You never hang onto upside down assets as an investor. You play the hand you are dealt. I played it well and game is still on. Btw. Doesn’t even appear on credit report. Know why? Because I never took out a loan with Bank of NY Mellon. They assumed the debt and do not report from past original servicer 6 banks ago.

  95. 95
    greg says:

    I am sensing a bromance blossoming, maybe you guys should just go to a bar and hash it out….

  96. 96
    erik says:

    RE: Ray Pepper @ 94
    Kary is angry because you mopped the floor with him last battle and you are doing it again. Kary usually writes well, but I can tell he’s getting flustered because his last comment was missing words and didn’t make as much sense. Time for a knockout punch!

  97. 97
    Erik says:

    RE: greg @ 95
    There will never be love between these two. Kary is jealous and too pig headed to take advise from his master. Ardell and Ray are experts and Kary is a junior agent. Kary needs to admit it and move forward so we can all just get along here.

    This reminds me of the good ole days when Ardell would give Kary a 40 comment beating and Ray would jump in to spank him too. Then for Kary to boost he’d ego he’d beat on the man dying of cancer that was probably on all kinds of pain killers. The entire time I’d feed the fire.

  98. 98
    Som says:

    RE: Justme @ 83 – If only Caffeinator Schultz had run for President. Make coffee great again.

  99. 99
    Som says:

    Top 5 neighborhoods for investment condos anyone?

  100. 100
    Erik says:

    RE: Som @ 99
    Anywhere in Seattle with a view of the the water. Or university district seems promising since Uw will probably get bigger. I bought an alki condo so I can rent to someone retired. Baby boomers are retiring, so I like alki.

    Here is the rule of thumb I made up… Rent to the person or couple with the lowest testosterone. Old people are low t. Women are low t. You don’t want to bring some smoking hot 20 something female because she will attract a high testosterone male, which is bad news for you. Rent to someone old or a couple of fat lesbians. A computer programmer would be good too. They typically have low testosterone. Johness was a commenter on here that was a programmer that would make a great renter. Johness is in a longterm relationship with a female, but he almost hooked up with his male realtor because his testosterone and estrogen are out of whack. Again, typical for the computer science males.

  101. 101
    LetsgoSounders says:

    So far in 2016 what was the best month to be a seller of your home for multiple offers and maximum sale? I am still thinking of getting out of here next March. From what I see houses in Capitol Hill sold for more in March/April anyway for some reason even though a bunch hit at once. Must have been people waiting all winter for listings to hit or what?

  102. 102

    RE: Ray Pepper @ 94 – Why don’t we talk about your futile/incompetent attempt(s) to sell that property? I was selling our old house about the same time and I made adjustments and succeeded, while you failed miserably. You remind me of my old cat Spike who got out of control running through the house and then after crashing into a table got up and acted like “I meant to do that!”

    You’re just a real estate investor with very questionable abilities who is also a real estate agent so that you can be your own agent, just as you have been acting as your own attorney. That doesn’t mean you’re good at either task. I don’t think you understand the big picture, and instead are just focusing on the moment.

    Me on the other hand, I choose not to invest in real estate, no longer invest in the stock market and no longer bet at Emerald Downs. That doesn’t mean anything, other than I no longer enjoy those things. And it has absolutely nothing to do with your dire financial situation–that you bring up my not investing is just you deflecting so that you can continue to attract suckers to your scams, such as Erik.

  103. 103
    Ray Pepper says:

    Sell the property? Please elaborate. Did I throw it on the MLS? When? I may have when we moved out prior to renting. I honestly don’t remember? Over the last 25 years I Sometimes I throw my stuff on the MLS In between tenants. Then when rented remove from MLS. Was it on less then 30 days?

  104. 104
    [troll] says:

    Th tm ws nc wrm mnth n th yr 2006. Kry, lw tststrn ml, nc gn rfsd t by hs ftr th dt cm crsh. Smthng smthng rsk s scry h kpt mttrng ndr hs fl ld mn brth.

    Bt th mrkt ws n fll bll swng, jst lk hs wf ws tkng th lv f hr bll lvr. Kry lvd t wtch ths ctvty s hs LW T prvntd hm fr stsfyng hs wf. Nw w gt glmps s t why Kry Krspsy Krm Krmr hts th bll mrkt! ts frm hs wn nblts! dgrss.

    Kry wntd t gt bck t th bll. H wld fnlly by hs. Bm… lmst lk clckwrk Kry bght hs t th pk f th 2007/2008 bbbl. H wll cry… yd yd hs ws nt n nvstmnt… yd yd… m gng t hld t dsn’t mttr!! Kry wns!! Bt Kry ds nt wn. Kry lss. Kry s n xprt rmmbr… h knw th crsh ws cmng bt h bght t lmst th pk f th mrkt. Ys ths s tr ppl. Dlsn nd dmnt fr r frnd Kry.

    Lckly mn nmd Ry Pppr ws grcs ngh t lt Kry lv n hs bsmnt whl h strggld wth th blls. ftr ll drng th dwntrn smn wth n sklls hs trbl fndng wrk.

    n dy th wtr stppd wrkng n th bsmnt nd Kry tld ry t fx t r h wld b t! Ry, bng Hgh T ml dcdd t pt Kry th Lw T n hs plc. Kry… th nly wtr wll gv y s th swt frm my blls. Kry ws trgd!!! H ws vry ngry, bt s thrsty. ftr fw dys f hldng t h wnt t Hgh T Ry nd sd pls Ry nd th wtr. Kry drnk th wtr nd t ws swt.

    Kry, pls stp gvng dvc, bcs y hv bn wrng vry sngl tm. GN ND GN. ts lk y r s ld nd stbbrn y rfs t lrn, wll my frnd ths rfsl t lrn s yr dwnfll.

    m lmtng yr pstng. nly n pst pr blg. Tm snt m mssg nd grs.

    Thnks,
    Sm Hntr

    PS. S y t th scvngr hnt.

  105. 105
    Ray Pepper says:

    That was absolutely hilarious. So well thought out. You have an amazing way with words. I almost felt him being right there in my basement!!?. Which also reminds me wasn’t there a limit per blog entry? Yes, Kary did buy at the height of the market his only home. We don’t discuss that too often. Why make him relive that nightmare. If he could have held off a couple years he could of gotten it at nearly 1/2 off. Realtors giving ANY advice should ALWAYS be scrutinized heavily and valued as much as the neighbors advice on real estate. Because, after all they are Realtors, slaves to the MLS, and puppets in a profession as valuable to society as the car salesman.

  106. 106
    uwp says:

    This is truly the feel-good thread of the year!

  107. 107
    Justme says:

    RE: Sam Hunter @ 104 – I guess user Sam Hunter == user Erik. They write the same stuff. That being said, can Erik (and Sam Hunter) stop with the bullying, false tales and assorted putdowns of Kary? Kary does not need me to defend him, but still. Erik/Sam, if you cannot argue facts with Kary, what do you think that tells the reader? I’ll explain it to you: It tells the reader that the facts are not on your side.

    As for Ray Pepper, I have not followed his previous tales and exploits. Perhaps Ray can post a timeline of his purchases and sales and various financial dispositions, judgements, OIC with IRS, etc etc, then we can judge for ourselves.

  108. 108
    Erik says:

    RE: Justme @ 107
    Really? I have no idea who Sam hunter is. How long have you followed this site? Kary is a notorious bully that will even beat down cancer patients and then talked poorly of them after they pass. He constantly bullies others with his law knowledge. Now there is blood in the water and we are attacking. Don’t feel sorry for Kary. He has all of this coming and more.

  109. 109
    Ray Pepper says:

    RE: Justme @ 107 – Ask Kary. He can pull everything up on Realist. I have no secrets! You can even drive the properties. Just don’t bother the tenants!! Kary is correct that I’m an investor more then an agent. I don’t work with first time homebuyers. Only investors. I got my license about 20 years ago to save 3% when I bought and 3% when I sold. Started with Pepper Realty at 3928 N Cheyenne in 98407 ..sold the building. Then started the EMPIRE that is 500 Realty.

  110. 110
    Erik says:

    RE: Justme @ 107
    I take it as a major compliment after reading Sam hunters post. Well laid out and executed Sam.

    I especially liked the part about Kary getting his thirst quenched off Ray’s sack. Thanks for that visual.

  111. 111
    Ray Pepper says:

    I must defend Kary on this. I don’t believe none of us knew David Losh had pancreatic cancer. He kept it a secret. If I knew I would of been ALOT nicer to him too.

    Now, after his death, I don’t think Kary would still slam him. I cannot confirm because I have been off Bubble for awhile. David was a nice guy. Met him with The Tim at some bar in many years ago by UW.

    Is Ira, Ardell, Jillayne still here? What about the buffoon from Everett newspaper. Steve Tytler I think his name was?

  112. 112
    [troll] says:

    gss sr Jstm == sr Kry Krsmr. Thy wrt th sm stff. Tht bng sd cn Jstm stp dfndng th prsn wh s chrnclly wrng? Nt nly tht bt h pss s rl stt prfssnl! ts kn t hvng 300lb bs prsnl trnr. Jstm f y cnnt rg th fcts hr, wht ds ths tll m?

    wll xpln t t y: Kry s wrng lmst ll th tm, nt nly tht bt h pt hs mny whr hs mth ws, nd ws… wll… WRNG! H hs bn wrng fr th pst 10 yrs strght.

    nd Jstm, pls stp swngng ff Kry’s ld sggy blls. ts nt ttrctv.

    Thnks bd.

    ~Sm Hntr

  113. 113
  114. 114
    uwp says:

    But…
    Where are the GEMS?!?!

  115. 115
    Erik says:

    RE: Ray Pepper @ 111
    Kary still beat up an someone with cancer. After David passed away, Kary kept saying how dumb Losh was.

  116. 116
    pfft says:

    I bet you guys would love it if I derailed this thread now wouldn’t you?

    the bookies have clinton at an 80% chance of winning. everyone else has her chances much higher.

    http://predictwise.com/politics/2016-president-winner

  117. 117
    Som says:

    RE: LetsgoSounders @ 101 – You are right. March/April and I will say May as well were the best months to sell this year. Last year was very very unique in my personal observation – there was an influx of out of state buyers who were all holding on to buy in winter when market subsides. I personally know twelve separate families who moved in and were renting month to month waiting for winter. Winter never came. They grew desperate and March/April turned out to be a seller’s market like I have never seen before.

  118. 118
    Som says:

    RE: Erik @ 100 – lol very accurate. I fear the low T computer programmer. Odds are they will get supplements at some point and then their urges may cause hooker activity.

    Fat lesbians are the way to go.

  119. 119
    greg says:

    RE: pfft @ 116

    bookies have trump at 3.5 /1 and 3/1 meanwhile Clinton is at 2/9

    I think it is clear the bookies think Clinton is a dead cert at this point.

  120. 120

    RE: greg @ 119
    Wrong Again

    The best way to get Trump supporters actually to the voting booths IN GROVES is tell ’em they’re behind when they’re ahead using a scientific poll MSFT and Apple aren’t MANIPULATING.

    Like this one:

    http://graphics.latimes.com/usc-presidential-poll-dashboard/

  121. 121
    Macro Investor says:

    By softwarengineer @ 68:

    RE: Justme @ 65
    The Chinese Investors Face Prison or Death if They Buy Foreign RE

    Sounds like their vetting process against this law is improving?

    Where can we report violators? I’m sick of them coming here and ruining our housing markets, taking jobs, writing lousy software…

  122. 122

    By Sam Hunter @ 104:

    Kary, please stop giving advice, because you have been wrong every single time. AGAIN AND AGAIN.

    Sam, I asked you before to name one time I was wrong. You failed to respond, because you don’t know of any such time. You’re just another stupid troll.

    Also quit wasting your time trying to be funny, because you’re not funny at all. You’re just stupid and juvenile.

    Edit: I did though want to correct something I said about Ray’s concerns that was wrong. I don’t think discharge of indebtedness income is necessarily his biggest concern on the judicial foreclosure, because a lot of that will probably be offset by interest deductions. I was so focused on his being able to probably claim the insolvency exception in the future that I wasn’t thinking that through all the way.

  123. 123

    By Erik @ 108:

    RE: Justme @ 107
    Really? I have no idea who Sam hunter is. How long have you followed this site? Kary is a notorious bully that will even beat down cancer patients and then talked poorly of them after they pass.

    David Losh was nothing but a troll, even attacking my pieces on whether or not to do a short sale, and as noted, no one knew he was sick until he was gone.

    That a moron died of cancer doesn’t make him a genius, although also death didn’t lower his IQ that much. I get sick of hypocrites that praise their enemies after they die (e.g. liberal politicians praising conservative judges and visa versa). I did though feel bad for his widow because David left her in a financial mess. That part was sad.

  124. 124

    By Ray Pepper @ 103:

    Sell the property? Please elaborate. Did I throw it on the MLS? When? I may have when we moved out prior to renting. I honestly don’t remember? Over the last 25 years I Sometimes I throw my stuff on the MLS In between tenants. Then when rented remove from MLS. Was it on less then 30 days?

    You really don’t remember? But since you asked . . .

    After buying the place in June 2007 for $269,000 and apparently doing extensive repairs to fix it up (based on the listing language) you listed it in August for $365,000. Then, presumably because the market had already peaked, you raised the price $10,000. That listing did only last less than 30 days, but not because you rented it, but because you thought it was better to cancel and relist than to lower the price. (Pro move there!) You then lowered the price a few more times down to $335,000 before raising the price back to $369,000 and then marking a “for sale” listing as “rented” about 20 minutes later (wow). Total time on market about 2.5 months or so.

    In your defense, that’s not the worst manipulation of listing data I’ve seen by an agent who owns listed property.

    But anyway, that’s what I based my claim that you only own the property because you bought a flip in Tacoma at the wrong time and were unable to sell it.

    I love that you think it’s a good practice to try to sell and rent at the same time. I always say that’s a good way to accomplish neither! A renter isn’t going to want to rent a property where the owner is interested in selling, and a buyer isn’t going to want to buy a place that is a rental.

  125. 125
    Ray Pepper says:

    Oh no Kary. Once a property rents I never sell it until tenant moves out. Then , I do the same in between tenants. However, I always remind tenants that if they want to buy let me know. It’s only happened twice with my tenants in over 2 decades.

    Yes. That’s the judicial one. Thought we were talking about the one 3 homes west up the street. Time line is about the same. I paid 300k for that one then refi’d it for 400k. Both of those have been in Loan Mod and in/out of foreclosure since 2007. Nearly a decade. Servicers paying taxes and insurance too. But, the Servicers were bad boys! Sucking up trial modification payments. 5-6 different servicers over the last decade. My last two remaining of the housing crash. Perfect examples of fraud perpetrated on Home Owners. They paid numerous times with ” checks in the mail” to pacify homeowners of their wrong doings. For me they still must pay. I refused their attempts at ” huge short sale incentives and deed in lieus” in excess of 25k. They knew they were bad boys. I held and continue to fight.
    Best part is neither show up on credit anymore. All signs of housing crash GONE from credit reports. Apparently you cannot report “legally” post 7 years of original debt no matter how many times you transfer loan. Lexington Law for 4 months took care of that.
    Will keep you posted on results. I only have 2 of these left. Wonder how many still exist out there from 2007? I’m certain hundreds in King and Pierce.
    From what I have read as of late the Courts will revert it back to the Lender at some moment in time. Until then I’m very VERY patient. What’s the rush? $$$

  126. 126
    greg says:

    By softwarengineer @ 120:

    RE: greg @ 119
    Wrong Again

    The best way to get Trump supporters actually to the voting booths IN GROVES is tell ’em they’re behind when they’re ahead using a scientific poll MSFT and Apple aren’t MANIPULATING.

    Like this one:

    http://graphics.latimes.com/usc-presidential-poll-dashboard/

    Sorry mate, but you could not be more wrong if you tried.

    The bookies are the only players that matter. Everyone else is just trying to get attention, bookies are putting their money on the line.

    Bookies have been closer than any other group for decades. Of course it does not make good TV, no need for maps, charts and big angry debates…. the odds speak for themselves.

  127. 127
    Erik says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 123
    Now that’s cold and heartless.

  128. 128
    Dave says:

    RE: Erik @ 100

    Erik as far as I’m concerned this is best post and possibly only piece of wisdom in this entire thread.

    Back in the 80s/90s UCLA had Fraternities(Boys) west of campus and Sororities(Girls) east of campus. As someone that refused to live in the dorms and student housing(LGBT) north of campus, I moved around.

    As a freshman living west of UCLA, it was loud, dirty, stinky, party neighborhood. Fun to visit but you get sick of living there and the boys trash everything, literally.

    As a junior living east of UCLA, it was quiet, clean, relaxing, even had the light smell of flowers and hot girls in abundance. So far beyond fun to visit that I lived there for a while even after graduation.

    Your advice is confirmed. Stay away from the testosterone if at all possible if you’re renting your own property.

    BTW I’m a well built 6’4″ straight guy, making me an authority on this topic.

  129. 129
    Macro Investor says:

    By Kary L. Krismer @ 123:

    By Erik @ 108:

    RE: Justme @ 107
    Really? I have no idea who Sam hunter is. How long have you followed this site? Kary is a notorious bully that will even beat down cancer patients and then talked poorly of them after they pass.

    David Losh was nothing but a troll, even attacking my pieces on whether or not to do a short sale, and as noted, no one knew he was sick until he was gone.

    That a moron died of cancer doesn’t make him a genius, although also death didn’t lower his IQ that much. I get sick of hypocrites that praise their enemies after they die (e.g. liberal politicians praising conservative judges and visa versa). I did though feel bad for his widow because David left her in a financial mess. That part was sad.

    You and Pft were the reason Tim had to place limits on comments. You ruined every thread with useless rubbish in a narcissistic attempt to get the last word… with what is most likely a computer bot. Congrats on being the genius here. We are all SO IMPRESSED.

  130. 130
    Blurtman says:

    Tonight at Chateau St. Michelle:

    “My grandpa, he’s 95
    And he keeps on dancin’
    He’s still alive

    My grandma, she’s 92
    She loves to dance
    And sing some, too

    I don’t know
    But I’ve been told
    If you keep on dancing
    You’ll never grow old

    Come on darling
    Put a pretty dress on
    We’re gonna go out tonight
    Dance, dance, dance
    Dance, dance, dance
    Dance, dance, dance
    All night long

    I’m a hard working man
    I’m a son of a gun
    I’ve been working all week in the noon day sun
    The wood’s in the kitchen
    And the cow’s in the barn
    I’m all cleaned up and my chores are all done
    Take my hand, come along
    Let’s go out and have some fun

    Come on darling put a pretty dress on
    We’re gonna go out tonight
    Dance, dance, dance
    Dance, dance, dance
    Dance, dance, dance
    All night long

    Pick on

    Dance, dance, dance
    Dance, dance, dance
    Dance, dance, dance
    All night long

    Come on darling, don’t look that way
    Don’t you know when you smile
    I’ve got to say you’re my honey pumpkin lover
    You’re my heart’s delight
    Don’t you want to go out tonight
    You’re such a pretty lady
    You’re such a sweet girl
    When you dance it brightens up my world
    Come on darling put a pretty dress on
    We’re gonna go out tonight
    And dance, dance, dance
    Dance, dance, dance
    Dance, dance, dance
    All night long”

  131. 131
    Erik says:

    RE: Dave @ 128
    That sounds like a great time you must have had. If I was 6’4″ well built young male living near California college babes, I’d spend all my time chasing tail and never get any school work done. That wasn’t my situation so I got an en engineering degree. I’m probably better at reaching things lower to the ground, so I guess we all have our pros and cons.

  132. 132
    pfft says:

    By Kary L. Krismer @ 123:

    By Erik @ 108:

    RE: Justme @ 107
    That a moron died of cancer doesn’t make him a genius, although also death didn’t lower his IQ that much. I get sick of hypocrites that praise their enemies after they die (e.g. liberal politicians praising conservative judges and visa versa).

    you don’t sound like a very nice person.

  133. 133
    Erik says:

    RE: pfft @ 132
    I remember hearing in history class that back in midieval days when a knight fell off his horse in battle he was unable to get up because his armor was so heavy. He would lay there on the ground a a peasant would come stab the knight in the eyes through his armor. It has stuck with me because it was a bit disturbing to imagine.

    I see similarities between Kary and the peasants that would stab the Knights eyes out. Both Kary and the peasants will both do anything to win with no compassion for anyone but themselves. I’m not sure, but I think that is in modern days we call a sociopath.

    Kary, my mom and grandmother are republicans. They certainly care about people. Not having compassion for others is not a republican trait. Not having compassion for others makes you a sociopath.

  134. 134

    By Ray Pepper @ 125:

    Oh no Kary. Once a property rents I never sell it until tenant moves out.

    But a prospective tenant has no way of knowing that when they are looking at it. All they know is that the owner of the house they are interested in renting is also interested in selling it. So maybe next year when they go to renew they won’t be given that option. Or maybe the house will be put on the market in 11 months and they’ll have to deal with showings. And that’s why I say advertising a house for rent and sale at the same time is problematic (although that assumes signs on the property for both–otherwise it’s unlikely they would know).

    As a practical matter though, any well informed prospective tenant would also be put off by the foreclosure records against the property.

  135. 135
    whatsmyname says:

    By softwarengineer @ 120:

    The best way to get Trump supporters actually to the voting booths IN GROVES is tell ’em they’re behind when they’re ahead using a scientific poll MSFT and Apple aren’t MANIPULATING.

    Like this one:

    http://graphics.latimes.com/usc-presidential-poll-dashboard/

    Are you suggesting that Trump supporters will go to the voting booths in groups of trees? Or do you just mean Trump supporters will be voting in Groves Texas? This does not seem to be a powerful statement.

    Btw, your selected poll says “We ask voters who they expect to see win, regardless of which candidate they support. Over the years, asking voters their expectation about which candidate will win often has proved to predict elections more reliably than asking how they plan to vote. That’s particularly true when the election is still many weeks away.”

    Then they give it to Clinton 55 to 39.

  136. 136

    Tenants are always advised during their tenancy they have the option to purchase at any point but as I stated they rarely do. I also advise them that property will not be sold during their tenancy. Only once did a tenant request that be placed in writing. I decided to make that statement for 3 years. Kary, tenants just want a particular property. Renting virtually anything in King or Pierce has ALWAYS been very easy for myself. It’s the last concern when I purchase a rental property.
    Now if your talking about the 2 properties that I stated above the tenants for years have been given a rental offer they simply cannot walk away from. 500.00 under current market and they can terminate their lease at any point due to uncertain future. They have lived there many years but also have been well informed of possible outcomes..60 days , cash for keys, new servicer offering to extend, investor purchase outcomes. Renting in the 98406 250 yards from UPS is a GEM of a location for those wanting to live in Pierce.

  137. 137

    By Raymond pepper @ 136:

    Now if your talking about the 2 properties that I stated above the tenants for years have been given a rental offer they simply cannot walk away from. 500.00 under current market

    So you’re paying them $200 a month to live there? ;-)

    Seriously, I’m glad you’re up front with them.

  138. 138

    On the topic of Obamacare:

    Tennessee’s insurance commissioner said recently that the individual health insurance market in her state is “very near collapse.” Premiums for the biggest insurer are expected to increase by an average of 62 percent. Two competitors will post average increases of 46 percent and 44 percent.

    http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2016/08/28/us/politics/ap-us-health-overhaul-woes.html?_r=0

    I had not read that before, but other sources for the same news exist on Google.

    There must have been some Tennessee exception to Obamacare that allowed the insurance companies to offer “junk policies” the past two years. /sarc

  139. 139

    Oh absolutely. And remember over the years the Servicers have attempted to foreclose. They have gotten the servicer letters taped to their door, letters in the mail, etc. about 3 or 4x. They always just call me to update them especially the day prior and post sale. In the trustee sales letter it clearly depicts tenants rights and they know,at worst, they will get 60 days free rent plus the time it takes to evict if they choose that route. Think they will most likely take the 3k and a few months free. Seems to be the going rate. They figure the 3k and no rent for awhile will put 8-10k in their pocket. Maybe more. The banks are very slow to respond and my tenants are VERY in tune to their rights.

  140. 140
    Whatever says:

    Wow. What a sad comment thread. I think some moderation and a clean up/post removal is needed in here, it really lowers the tone of the blog.

  141. 141

    Returning to the topic of Tim’s post, I’ve been doing some work down in Thurston county, and the market down there is much more balanced than what the stats above would suggest (and was earlier this year too). Hopefully that means that if we get to even 2 months’ supply of active listings in King County that things will be much better for buyers without being too much worse for sellers (but obviously not as good as they’ve been).

    The point though is you really don’t get that much of a feel from just the stats.

  142. 142
    Bill Johnson says:

    Thanks for the relevant information, Kary. Much appreciated!RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 140

  143. 143
    Blake says:

    By Kary L. Krismer @ 138:

    On the topic of Obamacare:

    Tennessee’s insurance commissioner said recently that the individual health insurance market in her state is “very near collapse.” Premiums for the biggest insurer are expected to increase by an average of 62 percent. Two competitors will post average increases of 46 percent and 44 percent.

    http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2016/08/28/us/politics/ap-us-health-overhaul-woes.html?_r=0

    I had not read that before, but other sources for the same news exist on Google.

    There must have been some Tennessee exception to Obamacare that allowed the insurance companies to offer “junk policies” the past two years. /sarc

    http://www.marketwatch.com/story/why-insurance-monopolies-loom-in-obamacares-future-2016-08-28?link=MW_latest_news
    … “The new study, by the Kaiser Family Foundation, suggests there could be just one option for coverage in 31% of counties in 2017, and there may be only two in another 31%. That would give exchange customers in large swaths of the U.S. far less choice than they had this year, when 7% of counties had one insurer and 29% had two.”

    Blake sez: What is amazing is that even when they face so little competition where they can jack up rates at will, the health insurance corps are still bailing out because the pool of people on the exchanges are so sick and expensive to insure! What a mess…

  144. 144

    My HOA Community Has Repos

    The old owners are living there with attorney advice and not paying their dues.

    My neighbor’s example is an unit selling for as high as $160K in 2007, that owner now has a dilapidated storage room and leaky roof, a water valve break due to backyard improvements and digging in hard pan destroying and weakening pipes [then the valve breaks]. The house has multiple rot issues and the tax assessment is about $105K now….or worth say $120K in prime shape. I’d say the home is under water now at about $90K as a repo.

    How can a HOA put a lien on an underwater mortgage? How can you sell it? That’s why the old owner can live there forever and not pay HOA dues….LOL

  145. 145
    greg says:

    RE: Blake @ 141

    We need full unfettered public healthcare. Once everyone has an affordable reasonable option, suddenly the private insurers , hospitals and everything else can find ways to bring prices down.

    It works all across the developed world. Many countries manage to have good public healthcare and it drives private insurers and providers to work very hard to provide excellent quality care at much more competitive rates.

    Free / low cost public healthcare, takes the burden off of business and allows corps to compete better globally. It increases worker flexibility, and provides long term security that would prevent millions of foreclosures. more people could buy homes as they would not have to keep massive amounts of insurance . Older folk could retire to make way for younger and more productive workers who are underemployed due to older Americans being tied to work in order to keep healthcare…

    It is absolutely insane that we don’t provide full unfettered healthcare for 100% of our public. How special interests have managed to brain wash a nation into thinking that they are better off without low cost Ed and healthcare is simply stunning. We pay vastly more for drugs, and healthcare with no justification at all. The myth of American healthcare being the best in the world is a myth. It is better ONLY for the top few percent of people. Everyone else does not get the care even a working class numbskull in the EU can get. Preventative care is the care that helps you live decades longer, instead most Americans just get the tires kicked once a year and then massive intervention just before they die..

    and before anyone claims we cant “afford it” . I call bs, we already subsidize employers and we tie the govs hands preventing it from bargaining down costs. Public healthcare would mean that the average guy on the street would not have to worry about losing their kids college fund, they would not be forced to work while suffering with terminal cancer just to pay for treatment and avoid their family losing their home….

    the increase in taxes would be very minor compared to the increased living standards achieved from the long term security it provides.

    I for one think it is high time both the left and right absolutely insist their leaders work to build full and unfettered healthcare for every man woman and child in the USA.

    ok rant over, i just hate the whole winner takes all screw everyone else attitude the USA has been cultivating for the last 30 years .

  146. 146

    By Blake @ 141:

    Blake sez: What is amazing is that even when they face so little competition where they can jack up rates at will, the health insurance corps are still bailing out because the pool of people on the exchanges are so sick and expensive to insure! What a mess…

    The idea that competition would lower costs was part of the nonsense that was being spouted by Obamacare supporters. Medical insurance is regulated in probably every state, and that means rates are regulated and based on the cost of services provided. If anything having more competition would increase rates because the companies wouldn’t generate the same economies of scale as they could with fewer competitors.

    But yes, even with only one insurer in an area, if the costs of medical treatments increase for the customers of that insurer, the rates are going to increase. Insurance companies don’t just print free money, as the drafters of Obamacare seemed to think.

  147. 147

    RE: greg @ 143 – Look at the lies that were told to get Obamacare passed. (“You can keep your old doctor.” “You can keep your current plan.”)

    There’s no way a public system will pass until the current system collapses. Ironically, Obamacare may make that happen!

    In another report I saw that in some areas the Bronze plans are going away so that insurers can force people to buy the more expensive Silver plans. That’s a way for them to effectively increase rates considerably (and might be part of what happened in Tennessee). My bigger concern personally though is that all the carriers will just pull out of the individual market, leaving those of us who are self-employed uninsured. That is more and more likely as rates increase because more and more healthy people will drop out, causing the plans to implode.

  148. 148

    RE: softwarengineer @ 142 – There’s more than one type of HOA. Some have personal liability and some have a superpriority for 6 months of dues. There was a case a couple of years ago where one of those liens was foreclosed, someone bought fairly cheap (e.g. a couple of thousand of dollars), and the bank was not allowed to redeem from the sale. The statute has since been amended to allow redemption so that windfall would not happen today, but the HOA could still foreclose and get 6 months paid, and end a bad situation. But again, not all HOA’s have the superpriority.

  149. 149
    Justme says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 146

    softwarengineer @ 142 used the phrase “My HOA Community Has Repos”. Is this terminology correct, and what does it mean? Should he have said “My HOA has superpriority”?

    To find out these things for a particular condo complex, what is a good source for HOA CC&R documents apart from a title company? Does the King County recorder have copies online?

  150. 150

    RE: Justme @ 147 – For condos I think it depends on the time it was setup. The newer condos (e.g. ones less than maybe 20 years old) have the superpriority. I don’t have time to look at that now. Not sure about regular neighborhood HOAs.

  151. 151
    David 2000 says:

    By Macro Investor @ 121:

    By softwarengineer @ 68:

    RE: Justme @ 65
    The Chinese Investors Face Prison or Death if They Buy Foreign RE

    Sounds like their vetting process against this law is improving?

    Where can we report violators? I’m sick of them coming here and ruining our housing markets, taking jobs, writing lousy software…

    RE: Macro Investor @ 121

    You pea size brain racist moron

  152. 152
    Bingo says:

    RE: Justme @ 147

    Here’s how King County says to search for CC&Rs;

    Condominium declarations (also called “conditions, covenants and restrictions,” or CC&Rs). Because this text record is originally part of the initial establishing documents for a condominium, the Recorder’s Office usually has filed it along with the condominium site plan and survey. Search on the Recorder’s Office website by clicking Land Records and then Maps and then select the document type “Declaration of Condo” – even though it isn’t a map! Like the site plan and survey, the first declaration was probably filed under the name of the developer or the development company, but checking the condominium name as well is a good idea. If you do not find the original declaration here, continue your search on the Recorder’s Office website using the Official Public Records search engine and do not specify a document type.

  153. 153
    Justme says:

    RE: Bingo @ 149

    Thanks, Bingo. That worked after a bit of trial and error with the condo complex name.

  154. 154
    ess says:

    http://www.seattletimes.com/business/real-estate/portland-and-seattle-home-prices-rise-at-twice-the-national-rate/

    A quote from the article –

    “Still, nationwide prices are increasing more quickly than incomes as buyers compete for the dwindling supply of available homes. That could stifle sales in the coming months.”

    Interesting to note that prices are increasing all around the country, but faster in the Seattle area. A combination of plentiful high paying jobs and reduced supply no doubt contributes to the price increases.

    Housing prices should be supported in the immediate future, even if those prices slow down somewhat year over year.

  155. 155

    By Justme @ 147:

    “My HOA Community Has Repos”. Is this terminology correct, and what does it mean? Should he have said “My HOA has superpriority”?

    Here’s a more detailed answer. Note though I’ve never had to research this type of issue in depth. Thus there could be errors in this analysis, or additional rights that a specific HOA might have against a homeowner.

    There are at least three RCW chapters which could be applicable. RCW 64.38.005 et. seq covers neighborhood HOAs. I’m not seeing that they have a super-priority for 6 months dues. RCW 64.34.005 et. seq. covers condos formed after July 1, 1990, and they do get a super-priority based on RCW 64.34.364(3). Condos prior to that date are governed by RCW 64.32.010 et. seq., and I’m not aware of a super-priority for them. Note though that even without a super-priority the HOA could hold up a sale or refinance, and thus they have significant power.

    You can find all of those statutes here: http://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?Cite=64

    Note I’m only discussing lien rights. There may also be personal liability for the owners such that they could be sued and have the debt reduced to judgment and then garnished or otherwise executed against. Thus the situation may not be anywhere near as dire for HOAs as what SWE described, and that type of rumor can get homeowners in trouble. Most likely he’s just dealing with a situation where the dues are low, perhaps even under $100 a year, and it’s just not worthwhile to take any action as opposed to wait for a non-forced sale or refinance where they will collect the dues and late fees. Also note that the bankruptcy code does have some provisions creating an exception for certain HOA dues. Lots of issues, and I’m not addressing them all.

    Finally, glad you found your docs. If a condo you should have been given them both as part of your title commitment and the resale certificate. I remember mine were fairly well worn by the time I sold, but that was in part because I was on the board during most of my ownership.

  156. 156
    Justme says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 152

    I browsed the statutes. Is it generally true that these statutes are absolute, in the sense that they cannot be deviated from in the condo articles of incorporation (CCR or the like)? Or are they they just “default rules” that apply when nothing alternative has been written in the articles of incorporation, and duly recorded?

    By the way, where does it say that RCW 64.34 supersedes or overrides RCW 64.32, as of July 1, 1990?

    References:

    http://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=64.34.364
    http://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=64.32.200

    PS: This is not about some condo of mine, it is about some semi-random condo that caught my interest. That’s why I did not have the articles/CCR in the first place.

  157. 157

    By Justme @ 153:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 152

    I browsed the statutes. Is it generally true that these statutes are absolute, in the sense that they cannot be deviated from in the condo articles of incorporation (CCR or the like)? Or are they they just “default rules” that apply when nothing alternative has been written in the articles of incorporation, and duly recorded?

    By the way, where does it say that RCW 64.34 supersedes or overrides RCW 64.32, as of July 1, 1990?

    As to the first question, it depends on what the issue is. For some things the declaration/board would have some latitude and for others not. For example, I the declaration probably could not provide a super-priority for 12 months, but it could provide that the association wouldn’t have a lien at all.

    As to the second question see the statute linked below, but note there are some areas where the older condo statutes incorporate the new provisions, so it’s not black and white.

    http://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=64.34.010

  158. 158
    Ross says:

    By Kary L. Krismer @ 152:

    By Justme @ 147:

    “My HOA Community Has Repos”. Is this terminology correct, and what does it mean? Should he have said “My HOA has superpriority”?

    There are at least three RCW chapters which could be applicable. RCW 64.38.005 et. seq covers neighborhood HOAs. I’m not seeing that they have a super-priority for 6 months dues. RCW 64.34.005 et. seq. covers condos formed after July 1, 1990, and they do get a super-priority based on RCW 64.34.364(3). Condos prior to that date are governed by RCW 64.32.010 et. seq., and I’m not aware of a super-priority for them.

    Old act condos can get super-priority if they update their declaration with an amendment opting in to the super-priority language, though only for purchases which originate after the amendment. The rest of the declaration can stay the same, i.e. remain old act.

  159. 159
    Justme says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 154

    Is it largely fair to say that any right to deviate (“latitude”) would have to be described in the statute itself or some other applicable statute, and/or perhaps be established by case law that invokes/claims some interpretation of applicable statute?

  160. 160
    Justme says:

    RE: Ross @ 155

    I believe your statement is correct, but the interesting part is WHY your statement is correct. I think the answer to that is provided by the following paragraph of the new law.

    http://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=64.34.010

    “(2) The provisions of chapter 64.32 RCW do not apply to condominiums created after July 1, 1990, and do not invalidate any amendment to the declaration, bylaws, and survey maps and plans of any condominium created before July 1, 1990, if the amendment would be permitted by this chapter.”

    Stepping back for a moment: For the questions I have posed on this thread, I am not solely interested in the “answer”, I am interested in “WHY”, that is, how the answer is supported by a specific statute. I’m trying to learn how to fish, and where to look for fish, not to be given a fish, to use that old analogy.

  161. 161

    RE: Justme @ 156 – I think you’re asking a rather complex question that would depend a lot on specifics, sort of like the questions that arise pertaining to what the City of Seattle can do with respect to gun ordinances and rental ordinances given that the state preempts the former and prohibits rent control on the latter.

    To give you a taste you might want to review this fairly recent decision.

    http://law.justia.com/cases/washington/supreme-court/2015/90879-6.html

    Also, an attorney who has represented HOAs and condos would be a lot more familiar with these issues than I would. They might be reluctant to give you an answer though if it was adverse to several of their clients’ positions.

  162. 162
    Justme says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 158

    Interesting case. The court decision used the condo declaration itself to find that “leasing” was a form of “use”, and then the court applied RCW 64.34.264(4) that a 90% vote is required to modify (amend) the condo declaration with respect to “use” restrictions.

    It was however not a case of a condo declaration trying to specify a majority threshold other than the statutory 90% for voting on “use” cases. I suppose the correct interpretation is that RCW 64.34.264(4) would not allow that.

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