Seattle Bubble Forum Archive

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An informative Newsweek article IMHO. A selection of "experts" provide opinions with respect to our economy -

Maybe it's just me, but I find it a little silly all the print that has been dedicated to the financial pain Americans are going through right now. Stressful? Certainly. Frustrating? Absolutely. A lower standard of living? Quite possibly. But pain? Real true pain? I don't think so.

What does this "financial pain" even mean? It doesn't seem to mean that a significant number of people are going hungry, homeless, or undressed. Yes, some people fall into those categories, and I have no doubt the number is growing right now, but by and large this isn't the case.

People are eating hamburger instead of steak, losing their house and going back to renting, and probably wearing older less stylish clothing rather than buying new outfits quite as frequently. So here's my challenge, in what historically justified sense of the word is any of this pain?

RCC said-
.....So here's my challenge, in what historically justified sense of the word is any of this pain?....

Interesting point RCC. During May 2007 I spent $303.20 for gasoline. Last May I spent $376.87 without significanlty changing my driving habits. (Yes, I really do keep records of this type expense) This increase of a non-discretionary expense does not really affect me personally as I can comfortably absorb the increased cost, but what about those people who really do live from paycheck to paycheck?

It is at least as appropriate as a mass suicide at jonestown reference in you posting name

Maybe that's for 2 cars.

DJO-

I may have been misleading. I did say "I" spent $303.20 where in fact "we" spent....

Two cars, mine is a 2006 Nissan Frontier (averaging 15.5 mpg), hers is a 2001 Nissan Pathfinder (averaging 16.5 mpg). We live in a semirural area where it is miles to anywhere and between the two of us we average about 1600 miles per month combined.

Suppose you traded in one of your vehicles for a hybrid that averaged 50 mpg and replaced 90% of miles in one car with the hybrid. You could reduce the gasoline cost from approximately $190/month to $60/month. That $130/month applied to a five year loan at 1% would pay off approximately $7500. A Honda Civic hybrid has a base MSRP of $22600. You could probably get around $12k for your Frontier. It doesn't look like you come out ahead quite yet, but I don't think gas has to rise much more before you do.

Alan –

Yes, I've been thinking alot about those type scenarios. I didn't mention that we also have a 1993 Ford Explorer. So we have two mid-size SUV's and a mid size pick-up. I think I fit into the typical American gas-guzzler consumer profile pretty well.

I can't wait until this car becomes available (see link below). This really is the technology of the future


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From what I understand, the major stumbling block for marketing hydrogen fuel cell technology is the lack of hydrogen fueling stations. When that problem is resolved, what's there not to like?

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Redmondjp-

I think "financial pain" can be relative. The people you were describing I would call "destitute". They crossed the "financial pain" threshold long ago and that is a tragic situation. Personally, I would be stressed if I was living paycheck to paycheck without any reserve for when something goes wrong, and something always goes wrong, eventually.
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Yeah the car thing is off topic, but I like cars and I like keeping track of new technologies. Maybe this discussion should be moved to the "Everything Else" part of the Off -Topic Forums if anyone is interested in continuing the discussion. Supposedly, Honda has developed a system to produce hydrogen using solar power. I guess the question is to whether this can be done on a massive scale?


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Two thoughts. First off, thanks redmondjp for joining me on the "real pain" side of the fence. I mean, sure there's such a thing as relative standards for pain. But it's not like I defined pain based on the 1600's when real pain was starving to death or dying of flu at age 18. Shoot, I didn't even define real pain as sitting in a trench in WW I.

What I see, is people being forced to make the "hard" decisions like; should I combine all my shopping trips for the week/month into one trip to save on gas or can my child carpool to a sporting event rather than have me drive them in a SUV with just 2 passengers. That stuff is annoying, but little more.

I'll call it real pain when I see a measurable portion of the population is destitute or when a statistically significant portion of the population finds it difficult to purchase nutritious food.

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About hydrogen cars...there are a huge number of technological and business problems with hydrogen power for now.

1) It can't be transported easily. We use pipes for gasoline, which works great, but hydrogen leaks out and is highly corrosive. It tends to eat through pipes. When it does spring a leak, it's harder to find and fix than leaks in gas lines.

2) Hydrogen is not free to make. You have to free it from something (water would be ideal, but usually it's coal or natural gas as redmondjp's article pointed out). In other words, it doesn't actually free us from fossil fuels, but it does make them far less efficient.

3) It's difficult to store. The press tells you that you burn it, it combines with O, forms water, and drips out of your car (or steam goes into the air). But It takes complex, expensive, and heavy equipment to store a tank of it. They are looking at some other options of molecules which will hold hydrogen with a low energy threshold to release it, or using buckyballs to trap the hydrogen, but those options require energy to free the hydrogen as well as meaning you'll have waste material that needs to be disposed and recycled.

4) It's not that efficient. Eventually we need to free it from something cheap and available, like water, but that's a very lossy exchange (both in terms of energy and raw hydrogen).

5) Filling up is also complex. It's not a liquid, you can't just "top it off". This makes for far more expensive infrastructure.

6) It's truly explosive. Movies exaggerate how shooting a gas tank can make a car explode, but it's not true. Gasoline needs to be mixed to explode in an engine. Hydrogen on the other hand really is explosive. At least this would help Hollywood I guess.


Long story short, hydrogen is an expensive boondoggle, and is unlikely to replace fuel for automobiles (aircraft is another story). Plug-in hybrids are far more likely to succeed, and are a better use of our resources/infrastructure. Most people rarely drive more than 50 miles in a day anyways, so plug-in hybrids with a 30-50 mile range will generally use grid electricity, which is generally more efficient than gasoline or hydrogen power.