Define middle class in Seattle
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Ubersalad
Bubble Bloviator
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2007 4:15 pm
Posts: 350
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 Re: Define middle class in Seattle Dave0 wrote: Ubersalad wrote: IMO, class is representation of income and asset, with more weight on the asset.
100k income with 2 million asset (solid executive) comparing to 300k income with no asset (RE agent/Mortgage Broker). Who do you think is better representative of middle class? Assets are a consequence of income. Class is based on income, and the assets people associate with a certain class are what a financially responsible person should be able to buy with that class' income. A RE agent making $300,000 a year is upper class without a doubt, even if they blow it all on real estate and end up bankrupt. This is where we disagree. Where are you getting your information from? Perhaps I don't understand the definition of class.
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| Tue Aug 19, 2008 1:02 pm |
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Alan
Bubble Banter Boss
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2007 7:08 pm
Posts: 780
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Re: Define middle class in Seattle Quote: Assets are a consequence of income. Actually, income is a consquence of assets. Someone with $2M in assets should be able to earn $100k-300k on those assets without "working". Assets can be inheirited or 'found' (as in a lottery or being on the right end of a bubble). Someone earning $100k a year will require decades of living frugally and saving and investing aggressively to reach $2M in assets.
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| Tue Aug 19, 2008 1:20 pm |
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TJ_98370
Bubble Banter Boss
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 8:40 am
Posts: 844
Location: Poulsbo
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Re: Define middle class in Seattle Middle class means being able to maintain the same level of conspicuous consumption as what your middle class friends and neighbors do.
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| Tue Aug 19, 2008 1:26 pm |
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WestSideBilly
Bubble Banter Boss
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 1:41 pm
Posts: 562
Location: Land of entitlement
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Re: Define middle class in Seattle Dave0 wrote: Lower Class = bottom 20% of income distribution
Lower MIddle Class = next 20% of income distribution above Lower Class
Middle Class = next 20% of income distribution above Lower Middle Class
Upper Middle Class = next 20% of income distribution above Middle Class
Upper Class = top 20% of income distribution
So using the data biliruben linked above, the classes are as follows:
Lower Class: <$25,000/year
Lower Middle Class: between $25,000 & $45,000 per year
Middle Class: between $45,000 & $70,000 per year
Upper Middle Class: between $70,000 & $120,000 per year
Upper Class: above $120,000/year This is a gross oversimplification. The wealth of your parents (and how much they help you financially), your family situation (a single guy making $70k is probably upper middle, parents with 3 kids making $70k is lower middle?), how you spend/save your money, and other variables all come into play.
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| Tue Aug 19, 2008 1:31 pm |
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Dave0
Bubble Blatherer
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:15 pm
Posts: 66
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Re: Define middle class in Seattle Ubersalad wrote: This is where we disagree. Where are you getting your information from? Perhaps I don't understand the definition of class. I may be wrong, I'm just going off what I remember (or chose to remember possibly) from my econ classes in college.
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| Tue Aug 19, 2008 1:32 pm |
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Civil Servant
Bubble Blatherer
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:05 am
Posts: 93
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Re: Define middle class in Seattle David M., what are PAW and UAW? I don't know those. (Anyone remember "UHB," from "Metropolitan"?)
I also know a lot of schoolteachers, and I work in the public sector. Say what you will about the public sector -- I have probably said it myself -- without it many many people without college educations would be barely hanging on in the workforce. In the public sector they can start around $35K as clerks or admins, and the regular pay bumps and COLA increases allow them to gain an increasingly solid financial foothold and also a non-financial investment in the community. I see single mothers making it work on $50K, even closer to $40K. I don't know how they're doing it, and they are certainly not property owners, but they are doing it, and I don't hear them complaining. (Which is a big part of the reason that poormouth lawyertalk chaps my *ss like it does.) As Elizabeth Warren points out, income stability is so key. I wonder how many junior real-estate agents will see their previously coursing income stream dry up in the next few years. Will they look with regret on stable office jobs they passed up or quit?
I like "working" class instead of "middle" class. More descriptive! For the same reason I liked David Losh's use of "worker housing units" in a comment thread the other day.
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| Tue Aug 19, 2008 1:36 pm |
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Dave0
Bubble Blatherer
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:15 pm
Posts: 66
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Re: Define middle class in Seattle Alan wrote: Quote: Assets are a consequence of income. Actually, income is a consquence of assets. Someone with $2M in assets should be able to earn $100k-300k on those assets without "working". Assets can be inheirited or 'found' (as in a lottery or being on the right end of a bubble). Someone earning $100k a year will require decades of living frugally and saving and investing aggressively to reach $2M in assets. I think in most cases income is a consequence of occupation, which is a consequence of education (or dumb luck). If people are smart, they'll take this income and buy income producing assets like you say above, but income producing assets are not the starting point in my opinion.
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| Tue Aug 19, 2008 1:38 pm |
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Civil Servant
Bubble Blatherer
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:05 am
Posts: 93
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Re: Define middle class in Seattle Quote: Middle class means being able to maintain the same level of conspicuous consumption as what your middle class friends and neighbors do. What was that study where the overwhelming majority of people said they'd rather be making $100K and live in a neighborhood where everyone else made $80K than be making $180K and live where everyone else made $200K? Ouch.
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| Tue Aug 19, 2008 1:40 pm |
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WestSideBilly
Bubble Banter Boss
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 1:41 pm
Posts: 562
Location: Land of entitlement
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Re: Define middle class in Seattle Civil Servant wrote: David M., what are PAW and UAW? I don't know those. (Anyone remember "UHB," from "Metropolitan"?)
Prodigious accumulator of wealth Average accumulator of wealth Under accumulator of wealth From the "Millionaire Next Door"
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| Tue Aug 19, 2008 1:40 pm |
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Dave0
Bubble Blatherer
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:15 pm
Posts: 66
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Re: Define middle class in Seattle Civil Servant wrote: I like "working" class instead of "middle" class. More descriptive! For the same reason I liked David Losh's use of "worker housing units" in a comment thread the other day. Interesting, I've always thought of "working class" as a politically correct term for "lower class," as in "working paycheck to paycheck" without the ability to save any money. Maybe I've been incorrectly translating that in my head this entire time.
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| Tue Aug 19, 2008 1:44 pm |
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Civil Servant
Bubble Blatherer
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:05 am
Posts: 93
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Re: Define middle class in Seattle Dave0, I think you're right about the context in which the use of "working class" arose. The use I am endorsing reflects a recalibration of financial and socioeconomic realities and increasing class stratification. I mean, aren't large swathes of what we'd historically call the middle class working paycheck to paycheck these days? I sure wouldn't want to be supporting myself + a kid on $50K with a job that I couldn't count on a few months down the pike.
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| Tue Aug 19, 2008 1:54 pm |
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Dave0
Bubble Blatherer
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:15 pm
Posts: 66
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Re: Define middle class in Seattle WestSideBilly wrote: Dave0 wrote: Lower Class = bottom 20% of income distribution
Lower MIddle Class = next 20% of income distribution above Lower Class
Middle Class = next 20% of income distribution above Lower Middle Class
Upper Middle Class = next 20% of income distribution above Middle Class
Upper Class = top 20% of income distribution
So using the data biliruben linked above, the classes are as follows:
Lower Class: <$25,000/year
Lower Middle Class: between $25,000 & $45,000 per year
Middle Class: between $45,000 & $70,000 per year
Upper Middle Class: between $70,000 & $120,000 per year
Upper Class: above $120,000/year This is a gross oversimplification. The wealth of your parents (and how much they help you financially), your family situation (a single guy making $70k is probably upper middle, parents with 3 kids making $70k is lower middle?), how you spend/save your money, and other variables all come into play. That may be a gross oversimplification, but that was kind of the point. I would like a concrete definition of class and this seems like the best way to break it out in my mind. What is your concrete definition of class? Why do you say that a single guy making $70,000 is upper middle? What characteristics does he portray that make him upper middle class?
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| Tue Aug 19, 2008 2:00 pm |
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TJ_98370
Bubble Banter Boss
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 8:40 am
Posts: 844
Location: Poulsbo
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Re: Define middle class in Seattle .
If you Google “working class” you will get a wide variety of definitions. In my personal experience, terms like “working class” or the phrase “works for a living” have been used in a context to mean that the individual or group actually do “work” or physical labor for a living, as opposed to a cubicle dweller who sits at a desk all day.
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| Tue Aug 19, 2008 2:05 pm |
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Civil Servant
Bubble Blatherer
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:05 am
Posts: 93
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Re: Define middle class in Seattle A bit OT but for anyone looking for a more sociological (less strictly financial) excavation of class and class structure, this book is wonderful. http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Class/ ... 251/?itm=1OK sorry -- onward to the battlements.
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| Tue Aug 19, 2008 2:07 pm |
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Dave0
Bubble Blatherer
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:15 pm
Posts: 66
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Re: Define middle class in Seattle Civil Servant wrote: Dave0, I think you're right about the context in which the use of "working class" arose. The use I am endorsing reflects a recalibration of financial and socioeconomic realities and increasing class stratification. I mean, aren't large swathes of what we'd historically call the middle class working paycheck to paycheck these days? I sure wouldn't want to be supporting myself + a kid on $50K with a job that I couldn't count on a few months down the pike. I agree that there are a large amount of middle class these days that are living paycheck to paycheck, but I also think that many of these people could be getting by on less and putting that money into savings if they really wanted to. I think it's a problem of people confusing needs with wants. There are a lot of people that think they need things, when they really could get by without them.
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| Tue Aug 19, 2008 2:39 pm |
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