thoughts on Beacon hill, etc.

[eskercurve]

Hi everyone,

My wife and I are in the market to rent for a while to save up some money and buy a home. We were taking a look around and we were surprised that there are areas of Beacon Hill and Holly Park that look nice but are really cheap.

So our thought was, rent in the Eastlake or Northgate areas until the market bottoms (which according to my crystal ball is going to be in roughly six months) and then buy perhaps in Beacon Hill. We would think about West Seattle but ... for some reason the other half is really opposed to the idea

So ... any clue as to why the Beacon Hill area is so cheap? I looked online and at least it didn't seem dangerous or strange. We drove through it at night and there wasn't anything which seemed inherently dangerous... no more so than the U district at night these days. Also, anyone know what the area's like in terms of culture, feel,, etc?

Other areas we would consider are Ballard (noticed prices dropping there), around Northgate (most areas anyway), and Greenwood.

We are mid 20s and plan to have children in the future. So ... not being a seasoned Seattlite I'm not in the best position to say whether any of these areas seem non-family-friendly.

[Angie]

Beacon Hill is great. I've lived a little ways away (in Columbia City) for almost ten years and I know a lot of folks who live on Beacon.

The RE market is perhaps being hit harder in the south end than the north, more foreclosures, because (a) more lower-income people losing what they had owned and perhaps too zealously refinanced, and (b) I'll bet a lot of weird half-assed real estate "investment" happened down here during the fast and furious RE years, because houses were generally lower priced, and is now falling apart. So, I'm not surprised you could find good deals down here.

So why is/was it lower priced in the first place? There's some weird thing in Seattle culture that is very north-centric. It's like the city forgets that anything exists between I-90 and SeaTac. I moved here in 1992 to go to grad school and never really considered this until friends of mine moved to Hillman City from Wallingford in 1997 or so. Wow! Who knew this was all there?

I think part of it is about race. The Rainier Valley was one of the few places (with the CD) where blacks lived. Beacon had and still has a high concentration of Asians. There are plenty of white people down here too, make no mistake, but I think the major media outlets (both mainstream and high-profile alternative) are pretty north-end focused, and the Asian and black communities have their own media...anyway, I think that's part of what has historically kept the south end "off the radar", and still does to some extent.

Anyhow: There are lots of nice places along Beacon, from the north end near Amazon and all along the ridge. Close to downtown, several walkable urban districts, good parks and green spaces. Beacon does have more airplane noise than other neighborhoods but my friend who live there say it is not bad. I love where I am but I could easily see enjoying life on the Beacon ridge.

The south end in general has a bad reputation for crime, but in truth, if you look at the police stats by neighborhood, it is not any worse than other parts of the city. Certainly not Beacon Hill per se. Downtown, the U district, and Fremont have crime stats as bad or worse--go look at the police web page and see for yourself. Every part of the city has sketchy areas and you'll know them when you see them (like the intersection of Rainier and Henderson).

The elementary schools closer to the north end (Kimball, Beacon, Maple) have better reputations than the ones farther south (Dearborn Park). Lots of families from Beacon send their kids to Orca in Columbia City too, if you're into the alternative school mode.

The middle and high schools in the south end don't have a great reputation, but I have a feeling that the demographic shift from the last ten years of gentrification in the south end are going to play out and make some changes in the upper grades as they have in the elementaries. If you don't have kids yet you have a long while to worry about this, though.

A great way to get your fingers on the pulse of a neighborhood is to of course visit/hang out there, and to find local blogs. Bear in mind that as with topic-focused blogs, neighborhood blogs tend to be run by busybodies and dwell more on what needs improving than on what's going well. (Present company included, of course.)

Hope this is helpful! Good luck with your house search, whenever it comes along.

[mike2]

Holly Park used to have a lot of public housing projects. Much of it was replaced when New Holly was built. The light rail project has changed the appearance of the neighborhood greatly. When construction started along MLK, it looked as though a 3rd world shanty town had been bulldozed. My last visit to Beacon Hill was in the summer of 2007 (shortly before I left Seattle) and back then I was a little surprised that more affluent shopping areas weren't filling in yet. I expected more given how much the neighborhood has gentrified over the last decade.

When I considered moving down there, my biggest issue was the lack of a decent grocery store. The safeway on Othello and the QFC on Rainier are (or were) really lousy markets. I haven't shopped at either in a while, so perhaps they've improved.

Real estate values started shooting up when the light rail line route was chosen. The area saw some ridiculous appreciation way beyond other more estabilshed neighborhoods. My take on it 2-3 years ago was that homes there were horribly overpriced given the lack of ammenities and poorer demographics. That seems to be improving, but I'd keep a close eye on the schools if you're ultimate goal is to raise a family there.

[ira s]

I completely agree with Angie. I've been in the Seattle area 30+ years, and have lived north, south, and central. There's always been this eastside/northend snobbery not really based on anything.
Yes, there are parts of the Southend to avoid, but all too often the entire area gets painted with a broad brush and it is assumed that anything south of I-90 is gang infested or dangerous. Beacon Hill is great, especially north Beacon Hill. Columbia City, Mount Baker, Seward Park/Lakewood, and other neighborhoods are also just fine.
Schools? A lot of parents in the Seattle school district are very dissatisfied, north end or south, but that hasn't hurt real estate prices.
I think that the light rail line , combined with the fact that the south end has relative bargains, will mean that the area will either appreciate more than the rest of the city, or at least fall less.

[ira s]

Mike2,
The Safeway on Othello is still a lousy store, though it's supposed to get remodeled. The Safeway in Rainier Beach is brand new, and the QFC on Rainier has been remodeled...There's also a Grocery Outlet store @ Rainier and McLellan, and PCC Seward Park. Martin Luther King has a huge new Viet Wha supermarket, which used to be a really run down ghetto mart, but now is comparable in size and inventory to Uwajimaya.

[Angie]

Mike is right, I forgot about "New Holly"--it was a Hope VI redevelopment of public housing into a mix of market-rate and subsidized housing. I think there is still building going on there, or there are still phases to go--is that right Ira?

The same kind of redevelopment is ongoing near Rainier and Alaska where Rainier Vista used to be. The west side of MLK is finished (and some places are still unsold) and development is still underway on the east side of MLK. They seem to be fairly well planned, lots of amenities and nice community open spaces mixed in, from what I've seen.

Speaking of MLK, we drove down it on the way to the airport last week and it's looking great now that the light rail construction is all wrapped up. Can't wait til the trains are running. And, to bring it back to Beacon, there'll be a stop for the light rail right across the street from the Red Apple.

Re: grocery stores--I think the Grocery Outlet by McClellan is closing, the light rail construction kept people away too much for too long. However, the PCC on Seward is rumored to be expanding in the near future. They bought (or maybe already owned?) the parcel right to the south, where the auto repair used to be, but the auto repair business got kicked out due to impending expansion of the grocery.

Oh, and how can we forget McPherson's fruit stand on 15th and Columbian?? Best deal in town!

[ira s]

Oh, and how can we forget McPherson's fruit stand on 15th and Columbian?? Best deal in town!

Can't say enough about McPherson's...Much more than a fruit stand, great quality, extremely low prices, a fun place to shop, a real Seattle treasure!

[ira s]

I think there is still building going on there, or there are still phases to go--is that right Ira?


What's going on now is the final stages of the nearby Othello Station development, very close to and done by the same people as New Holly, a little closer to the light rail station.

[davidlosh@davidlosh.com]

The areas leading to the air port are more industrial. There are flight paths for commercial airlines to consider as well as the smaller planes from Boeing Field.

Raineer Avenue may look more urban, but for many years it was a row of commercial industrial activity. Farmers used to grow produce for the Farmers Market. You see spots of warehousing along what used to be a truck route.

As the Kent Valley filled up with warehouses the character of Raineer has changed, but it is a slow process.

[eskercurve]

Thanks for the input everyone! It sounds like this area would be awesome, just gotta stay away from the S. Rainier valley. The wife works downtown so when the light rail system comes online that will be awesome.

In terms of kids ... we're thinking that it will be a couple years before we start having them. She said that she'd like the Eastside and I don't mind that, but I'd prefer something closer to the city. As resistant I am to living in the burbs, I do also face the reality that the public schools there have at least a better reputation.

Anyway, thanks again for all the good input guys. So far Beacon Hill is a contender!

[wreckingbull]

My advice to you:

Don't take anyone's advice here

Spend time where you want to live. Walk the streets at night. Do you feel safe? Do you feel comfortable? One of my greatest regrets in my past real estate purchases was that I did not take the time to know a neighborhood. My perception of my neighborhood and reality had a big collision after I moved in.

[rose-colored-coolaid]

[davidlosh@davidlosh.com]

Crime is everywhere people want to be.

I think what the rose is referring to is gang activity. Yes there are gangs along Raineer Avenue and around parts of Beacon Hill. There are rules when living in areas with maurading teen agers. Most of the activity is harmless, some of the activity is more desperate. It's a learning curve that some people adapt to.

I have lived in many of the areas along Raineer. It's different, and it has changed with gentrification. It used to be,and in some respects still is, where people talked to each other and kind of self regulated. You got to know everybody real quick. Now, it's a slower process with the new people who have moved in and stay to them selves.

I'll be real frank here and say that Seattle's Asian population is growing. All along Raineer you see more signs in foriegn languages. There are many cultural differences. It's hard to sort out.

With the increase in Asian population there has been some displacement. Lower income families have lost cheap rentals or sold houses. You have the redevelopment of what we called the "projects" into multi cultural and economic diversity. It's pretty much a cluster of sorts.

Light Rail went South to the airport along the path of least resistence. Many people speculated in the area. Over the course of the next few years it will be interesting to see what happens. In my opinion tensions will rise, Real Estate Holdings will lose value, and as they do, more elements of questionable value will move in.

[Angie]

Oh, absolutely, the best way to get to know a place is to physically be there. No doubt about it.

What chaps the hide of southenders is the expectation of graffiti and window bars. I'd be willing to bet cash money that if we looked in the grittier parts of Ballard/Fremont or many places along Aurora we'd find graffiti and window bard.

I'm sure there are people who wouldn't dream of living within a few miles of Rainier Beach...

Not here:


Or here:

Or here:

Or here:

All within easy walking distance to downtown RB, my friends.

Or, a little less breathtaking, but this place:

is literally right across the (side) street from Kubota Gardens, which is another absolutely amazing southend jewel. Wish I were ready to buy another house, I'd absolutely love to live in that location!

[davidlosh@davidlosh.com]

Be careful of the Windermere links, they freeze up.