demographic inversion

jonjon
edited August 2008 in Seattle Real Estate
Interesting article on how the demographics of cities are changing.

http://tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=2 ... be122ac1a9

Certainly explains what is happening to Ballard.

Comments

  • Jon,

    That was a good read, I love this article

    http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/06/16/subu ... newssearch

    Mostly because I find this theory fascinating:
    But as the market catches up to the demand for more mixed use communities, the United States could see a notable structural transformation in the way its population lives -- Arthur C. Nelson, director of Virginia Tech's Metropolitan Institute, estimates, for example, that half of the real-estate development built by 2025 will not have existed in 2000.

    Yet Nelson also estimates that in 2025 there will be a surplus of 22 million large-lot homes that will not be left vacant in a suburban wasteland but instead occupied by lower classes who have been driven out of their once affordable inner-city apartments and houses.

    The so-called McMansion, he said, will become the new multi-family home for the poor.

    "What is going to happen is lower and lower-middle income families squeezed out of downtown and glamorous suburban locations are going to be pushed economically into these McMansions at the suburban fringe," said Nelson. "There will probably be 10 people living in one house."
  • "What is going to happen is lower and lower-middle income families squeezed out of downtown and glamorous suburban locations are going to be pushed economically into these McMansions at the suburban fringe," said Nelson. "There will probably be 10 people living in one house."

    Apparently this is exactly what happened to the big gas-guzzling cars of the '70s. They used to be driven by the wealthy, but once gas became extremely expensive they became undesirable and were sold for cheap to poorer people that couldn't afford newer more fuel efficient cars. As a result the only people you see driving those once glamorous cars around are gang bangers in the inner city.
  • I resemble that remark.
  • Its always the schools that make the parents move out to the burbs. At some point that will flip, with the upscale parents staying close in to all their friends. Once in-city schools have a critical mass of involved parents, then those will become the desirable schools.

    When I lived in Boston there was a ring around the metro area where the best schools are. In Seattle it is more concentrated into Bellevue and Mercer Island. Bellevue especially has become a major city in its own right, with better schools that the outer burbs that surround it.
  • I think capital hill is kind of an example of this, mansions turned into multi-family rental housing, now heading back the other way.
  • Jon,

    I don't think that has been true of the bellevue school district for quite some time.

    In most cases with cities of decent size the older the city and district are the lower their ranking goes as the population is more diverse and there is a longer financial legacy. Bellevue is a good school district, but I have never seen them ranked above Lake Washington or Issaquah which are the surrounding districts. MI is generally the top district in the state and is a pretty special case that really is "different".

    http://www.schooldigger.com/go/WA/districtrank.aspx

    We have been in an environment for 50-80 years where it was almost always cheaper and easier to push development out further out and create more suburbs and exurbs than it was to repair and renovate older areas as well as deal with the existing population. There are a number of forces converging both economic and psychological which are going to change this quite a bit going forward.
  • garth, thanks for the correction about Bellevue. When i moved into the area I was mostly focused on evaluating elementary schools because my kids were younger. Bellevue still has a many elementary schools near the top, but overall they are not as highly ranked as I once thought.

    The question then is will Bellevue become more like Medina or more like Seattle. I think it is still close enough to the top that it will remain attractive to parents and its close proximity to jobs will keep it near the top.
  • garth wrote:
    Jon,
    We have been in an environment for 50-80 years where it was almost always cheaper and easier to push development out further out and create more suburbs and exurbs than it was to repair and renovate older areas as well as deal with the existing population. There are a number of forces converging both economic and psychological which are going to change this quite a bit going forward.

    What are the forces? I hear people talk about gas prices, but I thought the current gas prices were so high that technology would produce alternatives? The alternatives must by definition be cheaper otherwise we wouldn't produce them. So if we all end up with cheap electric cars in 10 years, won't we all decide that living further out is a better idea again?

    it will always be cheaper to expand in areas with less density. Take Seattle for example. That Mercer Mess and fixing that to deal with the additional Paul Allen Biotech area will cost a lot more than expanding 405 or 520 at the Redmond end (which is planned BTW). Ultimately, if a business is coming in from out of town and doesn't have an existing presence and employment base in downtown Seattle to consider, they're less likely to choose Seattle than they are to choose Bellevue or Redmond or other similar areas.

    That's assuming they come to the Seattle area at all and don't set up shop in Austin! We can only hope that house prices continue to come down, and the cranes in Bellevue keep building too much. In the next expansionary business cycle, that will set us up for getting a lot of companies coming here.

    (consume with pinch of salt)
    http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2008/fsb ... index.html
  • The biggest one is the nature of the housing bubble itself and the drive until you quality philosophy.

    This David Stiff guy and his "Housing Bubbles Collapse Inward" article lays it out much better than I could:

    http://www2.standardandpoors.com/spf/pd ... llapse.pdf
  • garth wrote:
    The biggest one is the nature of the housing bubble itself and the drive until you quality philosophy.

    This David Stiff guy and his "Housing Bubbles Collapse Inward" article lays it out much better than I could:

    http://www2.standardandpoors.com/spf/pd ... llapse.pdf

    OK, that makes a lot of sense to me. The "drive until you qualify" really has an implication, though, and the implication is that you would - in the past - have bought a property in a location in which you wouldn't have considered living in if it weren't for the "certainty" of getting rich with appreciation.

    This doesn't necessarily mean that suburbia is doomed, as a lot of people want to live there anyway. Suburbia was populated prior to the bubble after all. Issaquah, for example, has great schools, quiet neighborhoods, and so on. People didn't move out to Issaquah because they couldn't afford a place in Greenlake. Those people likely moved to Northgate, or West Seattle, or Burien, as they valued the "in city" locations more highly.

    I think you have to look at each area and evaluate if it has any value separate to any potential capital gains on the house. Good schools? Quality of life/surroundings? Location close to job centers/amenities? If it's just a piece of dirt, then you're probably screwed right now.

    The reason I focused on the energy part of the equation is that I'm getting fed up with people making long term statements with short term constants. For example, back before the nationwide bubble burst, the mantra was that prices would never go down because unemployment was low and prices never go down when unemployment is low. So, unemployment will never go up?

    Same with gas prices. Gas prices are high, therefore everyone will move out of the suburbs and it will be a wasteland of empty McMansions. So gas prices will never go down? EVs, or plug-in hybrids won't get more popular? Honda won't come out with a hybrid version of their popular Fit next year? That's right, they will! All that's going to happen in the suburbs is a painful and short term readjustment of energy consumption and expectation of future energy price. When you have a 16MPG SUV (as I do) it's pretty darn easy to trade it in for something that uses half the gasoline, even with old technology. I could use 1/3 of the gasoline if I decided to go for a Prius. If I actually *used* my car much, I'd get rid of it in a heartbeat.

    Not ranting at anyone in particular, just the general lack of long term thinking of the MSM and people talking their book (Belltown condo developers, I'm talking to you!).
  • We are in a changing culture. What would happen if a technological breakthrough suddenly allowed fairly regular and practical telecommuting for a significant portion of commuters? It is happening to me, which is one reason I am moving to the Tennesee area. I do think this thing will collapse from the exurbs in, but it will reach all the way in, as they all do. Then flatten, then repeat the old pattern. But each one is different. After all, there are recessions, and there is the great depression, which gave us a rather nasty war. It will be interesting to see how this one plays out. One thing is for sure, only PART of the turmoil going on in the world is economic, and only part of it is housing related.

    Also, someone mentioned the old inefficient cars going to poor people. When I was a kid, they were called dinosaurs. However, these McMansions are not inefficient. The opposite is true. OTOH, I do consider them the 21st century equivalent of mobile homes. They certainly don't come with any actual real estate, hence the popularity of rechargeable electric lawn mowers.
  • The problem with going to Tennessee to take advantage of telecommuting is that you never know when they will prefer someone who is telecommuting from India. The jobs that will remain in the US are the ones that require face time, and that is why I think the major metro areas have gotten an even higher premium than they once did.
  • jon wrote:
    The problem with going to Tennessee to take advantage of telecommuting is that you never know when they will prefer someone who is telecommuting from India. The jobs that will remain in the US are the ones that require face time, and that is why I think the major metro areas have gotten an even higher premium than they once did.
    I agree. Mine is a special case. My job depends on communication skills among other things. I will say this: I don't think american workers are worth more than indians or anyone else by virtue of their being american. However, I work with a LOT of Indians, and the language barier is a major issue. Still.
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