Wisdom wanted on savings

edited March 2008 in The Economy
So here I am, where I didn't want to be. Sold my house, now I'm renting. I want to get my sizeable former equity moved into a reasonably safe place to wait out more of the bubble pop.

I can look up on bankrate.com and find "high yield" savings accounts (like US Bank's 0.40% deal!). But I'll take into consideration any input from other Seattle Bubblers, and with great appreciation. Any experiences with the high-yield savings banks that were so bad I should not test their waters myself?

I don't want to take any big bets or risks, since I'll use the money for another house someday, but I am aware that staying in the US dollar may well be a bet of sorts. For now I'm willing to take the risk that the FDIC will answer the phone if my bank fails (for $100K max).

Do you think the dam will break in the next few years, so that CD rates are, say, 7+% again?
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Comments

  • Berkshire Hathaway.
    Silver.
    US Treasuries.

    The higher the interest rate offered by a bank, the more desparate they are for cash and the more likely your money will be tied up by FDIC paperwork.
  • Markor -
    I thought you just bought your house recently. What gives?
  • markor, you don't indicate whether or not you might need that money in the near term, or an intermediate term, so I will tell you what I recommended to my brother who is in a somewhat similar situation: build a ladder of CDs and Fed bonds, and keep the CDs in digestible pieces that never exceed $100,000. Were I you I would choose something like $20,000 pots for any one bank or credit union. I know, this is like having a lot of $20 bills in your pocket, but it is not so much that if tied up in a reorganization of a bank would change your life.

    Of most of us working stiffs and retirees a 10 year ladder is reasonable and should enable you to catch any interest rate increases along the way. This assumes you don't plan to use all of it sooner.

    If you plan to buy another home in say two years consider what you would put down on the house (lending standards will be much tighter, so budget 20% at least). Manage your ladder so that much money will be available by your target date.

    As my Mother used to tell me when I went shopping, don't spend all your money in one place.
  • Nell's advice is pretty solid, but I would avoid tying my money up in short term (6mo/1yr) CDs because the rates are so low (3.1%). ING, HSBC, Emigrant, and other online banks offer plain savings accounts that are fetching 3.4%-3.8% for savings and MMAs. And the money is completely flexible, so you can move the money to 6mo/1yr/5yr CDs if they become more lucrative. I personally wouldn't put more than $50k in any one pool.

    I don't know a lot about bonds but they may have a bit better interest right now, but obviously tie your money up for a longer time.

    The question as to how soon you may want to tap this money is significant to your approach. If you're planning on renting for 5 years, that changes the equation a bit.
  • my personal risk tolerance right now is that i am less worried about losing to inflation that i am about losing principle in a market crash. in august 07 i liquidated 1/2 of my mutual fund IRA and moved it to a local bank CD based IRA. i sleep alot better. i am considering moving the other 1/2 soon. to put things into perspective, i lost an 11 yr pension fund becasue the company i worked for was bought out, and the purchaser played games with the pension fund (ala enron, converted it all to company stock) and then went bankrupt. this IRA represents the last 10 yrs at another company, and i dont want to be burned 2x.
  • deejayoh wrote:
    Markor -
    I thought you just bought your house recently. What gives?
    It was a contingent offer that fell through.
  • Nell's advice is pretty solid, but I would avoid tying my money up in short term (6mo/1yr) CDs because the rates are so low (3.1%). ING, HSBC, Emigrant, and other online banks offer plain savings accounts that are fetching 3.4%-3.8% for savings and MMAs.
    Yeah, that's my inclination too, although I'm willing to do 6/mo CDs for a higher rate.

    I agree with Alan that higher savings/MMA rates mean greater risk of dealing with the FDIC. I read that they expect 100-200 bank failures in the next couple years, up from 4 last year. They're adding to staff in anticipation. Scary stuff. Supposedly they reimburse depositors within 2 days, but I doubt it. With 100-200 bank failures, who knows what expediency you'll get, if any.

    I suspect what will happen is that the housing bottom won't hit until after it's no longer prudent to have money in the banks, and I suspect that day will come without advance notice, like one day all accounts will be frozen. Call me a pessimist!

    Read today that Alabama's largest county is facing bankruptcy and may default on their municipal bonds. Hasn't happened since Orange County about 10 years ago.

    I think the advice of $20K to $50K max per account is sound, just for diversification (needed only when banks are failing).

    Berkshire Hathaway and silver, gold etc. is appealing, but probably has more volatility (ups & downs) than I'm looking for. I don't want to be 20% down when I'm next in the market for a house. Then again, it has a safety feature; I don't need the FDIC, I just need a working stock market. I'll consider that further.
    The question as to how soon you may want to tap this money is significant to your approach. If you're planning on renting for 5 years, that changes the equation a bit.
    I'll rent as long as it seems to be the better deal. Probably 2+ years.
  • mking wrote:
    my personal risk tolerance right now is that i am less worried about losing to inflation that i am about losing principle in a market crash.
    Me too. I think it's going to be tough to do that. Just like how you lost your pension, all the big players are going be looking to zap money from the little guys. If the US wasn't $9+ trillion in debt, with criminals in the White House, I'd have more faith in treasuries and the FDIC.
  • Markor,

    Criminals will always be in the White House, no matter which party it is.

    -David
  • .
    You might want to consider municipal bonds. I don't think somone as saavy as Mr. Buffet would offer to be an insurer if there really was increased risk of default.

    Muni market full of buried treasures

    In a topsy-turvy market of worry and low interest rates, investors are finding deals in a place they might not generally look—municipal bonds.....

    .....In recent weeks, the prices of even the safest of municipal bonds have declined because of factors that have little to do with whether states and cities will make good on their promises.....

    .
  • Criminals will always be in the White House, no matter which party it is.
    I disagree. For example, if Bill Clinton had been a criminal, we almost certainly would not have enjoyed his obviously excellent leadership, esp. fiscally. There would have been no budget surplus; it would have gone all to pork projects and $trillions more borrowed on top of that, also for pork, just like we see now, like we saw with Bush Sr., and like we saw with Reagan.
  • TJ_98370 wrote:
    You might want to consider municipal bonds. I don't think somone as saavy as Mr. Buffet would offer to be an insurer if there really was increased risk of default.
    I don't know what his strategy is, but it seems likely he just saw an undervalued deal. Insurance companies buy their own insurance, called reinsurance, so who knows what his risk really is. For example, maybe he figures that if as much as 10% of all muni bonds default, he'd still profit handsomely. I'm certainly no Buffett when it comes to predicting, but I think there's a good possibility of many muni bond defaults in the next couple years, given municipalities' obvious exposure to the housing downturn. I don't trust the bond ratings; it seems those have long been exposed as optimistic if not fraudulent.

    Mostly I'm just chicken to bet my future house on anything somewhat risky. I acknowledge that muni bonds may be less risky than CDs and MMAs though, given the likelihood of many bank failures and the unlikelihood that the FDIC will deal with those in a timely manner. So I'll look into muni bonds further. Thanks for the suggestion and the search link. Great article.
  • Markor wrote:
    Criminals will always be in the White House, no matter which party it is.
    I disagree. For example, if Bill Clinton had been a criminal, we almost certainly would not have enjoyed his obviously excellent leadership, esp. fiscally. There would have been no budget surplus; it would have gone all to pork projects and $trillions more borrowed on top of that, also for pork, just like we see now, like we saw with Bush Sr., and like we saw with Reagan.

    Ah, I get it, so only if they have an (R) after their name are they designated as criminals. Sorry, I'm still trying to get used to this new way of thinking.
  • Ah, I get it, so only if they have an (R) after their name are they designated as criminals.
    Yes, because the GOP is a quasi-criminal enterprise, legal only because they sufficiently control the laws. It's not a coincidence that of the last four presidents, only the (R) ones, and all three of them, put the country on a fast track to insolvency while their wealthiest supporters became fabulously wealthier due to that track.
  • I don't usually like to get political, but out of context, but here's a few thoughts.

    A) Isn't Clinton the only (or at least most) criminal president since Nixon? I believe perjury is generally a felony.
    B) While neither W Bush has little justification for attempting to bankrupt the country, Reagan was also trying to bankrupt (successfully) the USSR, and Bush Senior attempted to reign in the massive budget deficits of Reagan. Senior just just happened to be president during a major recession however, which is the worst time to be fixing budget deficits (as some deficit spending during economic downturns is justified).
    C) Our fiscal policy was screwed up during the Carter administration as well. And at least some of the credit for Clinton's budget surpluses can be attributed to economic growth of the time, some portion of which was its own dotcom bubble.
    D) C can be partially blamed on Nam, which was started during a democratic presidency.

    Not that I am trying to support the republicans per-say, but lets admit that both parties make mistakes, and both parties commit unethical or criminal actions.
  • I don't usually like to get political, but out of context, but here's a few thoughts.
    I think those points are all covered in spades elsewhere. Of course I agree with the liberal takes on them. Suffices to say I think the history books, if they are fair, will find the last three (R)s culpable for most of what led to the US' downfall, that needn't have happened, and Clinton will be seen as having greatly improved the country on the whole.
  • If the history books don't give Jimmy Carter his credit for how bad he fu*ked things up and all the crap that Clinton did, then I don't want my children reading those history books.

    Are you so politically biased that you are blind? Don't forget that the popping of the dot-com bubble and the recession we had in the early 2000's was CLINTON's recession. Any economist will tell you that. But I guess you don't believe that because Bush was in office. And what if there just happens to be a recovery in 3Q of this year? Will you give him credit for that? Or will credit go to individuals with (D) behind their name, namely in the Congress that has a LOWER approval rating than the president and hasn't done shit except for to push their uber-liberal agendas through only to get vetoed? This is a party that will waste our time and taxpayer money trying to impeach a president who only has 9 more months left in office (see Boulder City Council, Vermont Legislature, etc). Now, if the D's don't win the White House (you still won't win "flyover" country or the south) in November, what is the solution? Violence? Riot? Moving to Canada? Or just pouting like the last time? I think there's going to be a lot of surprised people the morning of November 5, especially in the media and Seattle.

    What happened? What the f**k happened?

    Sorry for the political rant, but I feel the need to call people on their shit.
  • Excuse me, but can anyone tell me where to find the "on topic" forums? :twisted:
  • Ok, my recommendation for savings is a nice MMA. :D
  • Thanks. That's the direction I'm going, because it will keep the money in "house dollars", so that as house prices fall, the money in the MMAs should buy more house (but not more of much else, since MMA rates are probably below the rate of inflation).

    I found that credit unions offer higher rates. They are insured not by the FDIC, but by the NCUA (National Credit Union Association), also backed by the US gov't (for now), and also for $100K per account. Here is a list of them in the Seattle area:

    http://local.yahoo.com/WA/Seattle/Legal ... dit+Unions

    Here's a gov't search form for banks. You can search for credit unions in Seattle:

    http://www.ffiec.gov/nicpubweb/nicweb/SearchForm.aspx

    I'm limiting the credit unions I use to those with multiple physical branches in the Seattle area. The big ones will take almost anyone as a member.

    The one question I've not found an answer to is, can MMAs return a negative rate? The rates are variable, and underlying money market funds can lose principal in theory, so can banks pass that on to the customer?

    On politics, my opinion is that the party most culpable for the US' downfall is encapsulated in this chart:

    Natl_Debt_Chart_2006.gif

    You can see that it took Clinton many years to eliminate the overspending of the Reagan / Bush Sr. years; it takes years to turn around a ship the size of the US. (And yes, Clinton gets credit. I remember reading in the paper almost weekly about him harping to Congress about the need to spend less--you hear the opposite from Republican presidents. The executive branch proposes the budget.) I think history will show that 99+% of the reason for the US' downfall is due to excessive deficit spending. As long as the prez balances the budget, he can have hookers in the Lincoln Bedroom for all I care.
  • Tax lien investing is high yield and fairly low risk, in certain states. In Texas, for example, you buy a tax lien ( the amount of unpaid taxes, fines, penalties, etc ) on a particular property, and the owner has a six month right of redemption. The vast majority of properties do get redeemed, and then they have to pay you a minimum 25% additional fine for redemption. If they don't redeem, you get the property;
    I know, that's all you need, some godforsaken mosquito infested property in Texas.
    But you can research the properties and make sure they are in good areas and worth far more than the lien costs.
  • Ira,

    I worked with a guy who bought land via a tax lien. He became the proud owner of 40 acres of undeveloped grassland near Poteau Oklahoma. I think he said be paid about $3,000. I couldn't quite understand why he thought he had a great deal. Maybe there was an undiscovered oil well on it or something.
  • That's the thing: there is tax lien an tax deed investing. The tax lien investing you generally do not get the property, it gets redeemed, with tax deed investing you get the property. I own some tax deed properties in Hot Springs, Arkansas..I went there to find the properties before I bid on them, and just sold a lot there to the Southern Baptist church, as they sent me an unsolicited offer to buy the lot, which was adjacent to the church and they wanted to expand...
    But generally, the liens are less risky than the tax deeds, but also less fun.
  • Markor,

    While I don't disagree with your political views, your chart might look different if it were graphed against who controlled Congress.
  • Markor -- I am currently in a similar position on savings, but with a smaller amount. Despite the big bounce up today, my conservative IRA MF's have lost too much prinicipal since I purchased them over year ago. I am bailing out soon to cut my losses, as I see this getting worse, and not getting back to what it was in March of last year for a long time, if ever.

    Going with a Credit Union is also one of my possibilities. Group Health Coop offers share certificates (both IRA and not), for anywhere from 6 months to years for a decent rate. The 9 month certificate is around 4.25% APY right now. Can't say what it will be next month.

    The other is in a TIPS fund, as the yield is considerably higher than a straight indexed fund, and expenses are very low. Vanuguard (VIPSX) is one I'm considering, that you might want to take a look at. You can always sell it when ready, and know you won't lose principal to inflation, at least that is the theory.
  • Twinstar Credit Union offer 4.25% on checking accounts.
  • ira s wrote:
    Twinstar Credit Union offer 4.25% on checking accounts.

    So avoid twinstar?
  • explorer wrote:
    Vanuguard (VIPSX) is one I'm considering, that you might want to take a look at. You can always sell it when ready, and know you won't lose principal to inflation, at least that is the theory.
    Thanks! I forgot about Vanguard. I like them for their low expense ratios. VIPSX is up 15% in the last year--that would be nice. High volatility though!
  • markor,
    Loved your graph. Makes me yearn for Gerald Ford.
  • Alan wrote:
    Markor,

    While I don't disagree with your political views, your chart might look different if it were graphed against who controlled Congress.

    ... and mean more if graphed as a percent of GDP rather than dollars.
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