Posted by: The Tim

Tim Ellis is the founder of Seattle Bubble. His background in engineering and computer / internet technology, a fondness of data-based analysis of problems, and an addiction to spreadsheets all influence his perspective on the Seattle-area real estate market.

79 responses to “King 5: Alki “The Bermuda Triangle of Real Estate””

  1. Ray Pepper

    I pulled up one of Randi’s 600k listings. The dues were OVER 500 a month and taxes were 5k a year. Thats a 1000 already just on taxes and dues. Heck, I love Alki but I’d MUCH rather rent. With 20% down you will see a payment at 4000+ a month.

    What do those rent for 1500? They are only 1400 sq feet.

    They wonder why they are not selling.

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  2. AMS

    RE: Ray Pepper @ 1

    Purchase price: 600k
    Annual rent: 18k

    Purchase price to annual rent = 33x

    Alternatively, of the $1,500 in monthly rent, $1,000 is spent by the landlord in taxes and dues.

    $500 per month plus the $1,000 per month in taxes and dues to live in a $600k place.

    5% interest (opportunity cost for the cash buyer) = $2,500 per month [=$30,000 per year].

    I can hear it all now:
    “You’re scum if you rent.”
    “You won’t make all that money when you go to sell.”
    “Think about your taxes!”
    blah, blah, blah

    Now I am not suggesting that Alki doesn’t command a premium, but why isn’t the premium reflected in the cost to rent?

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  3. EconE

    RE: The Tim @ 3

    It appears that the 1.6M listing is also for rent for $4500.

    What a bargain!

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  4. Ray Pepper

    RE: The Tim @ 3

    the last thing she’s willing to do is cut down on price–That was just a STUPID remark on her part.

    Its also very easy to say when YOU’RE not making the payments on MTG, taxes, insurance, etc.

    How do these Agents feel after seeing themselves on King 5? The other Agent looked equally stupid saying they could not give them away for FREE. I mean come on…What if you are the Seller and you see YOUR agent say that on TV! Walking through YOUR CONDO!!!

    So many idiots in this profession it makes me sick!

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  5. AMS

    RE: EconE @ 4 – Purchase price to annual rent ratio of about 30. The ratio might be fine, but my guess is both the 1.6M and $4,500 are too high.

    That said, if we assume the 1.6M to be a good number, which it clearly is not, then:

    $54,000 annual rent
    $12,000 taxes
    =======
    $42,000 net before other expenses on $1.6M investment?

    That’s less than 3% before other expenses.

    Reduce the annual rent to $32k [=$2,650/mo], and we’re down to $20k after taxes, or 1.25% on $1.6M.

    CRAZY!

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  6. AMS

    RE: Ray Pepper @ 5 – And she’s a paid professional?

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  7. EconE

    RE: AMS @ 6

    Totally crazy.

    FWIW, I’ve spent some time noodling through public records for million dollar trophy condos and it appears that once you buy it…you OWN it.

    Or is it the other way around?

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  8. Dave0

    RE: The Tim @ 3 – Wow… 1333 Harbor Ave SW #301 has been on the market for 2 years! That strategy of holding firm on price doesn’t appear to be working so well for Randi. Randi, here’s a reminder, your job as an agent is to FIND A BUYER! One thing is for sure, if you want your house to get sold, don’t use Randi Stone as your listing agent.

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  9. shawn

    I bet we all look back and kick ourselves for not getting in now before we are priced out forever. I clearly heard the Realtor say she would “not ever lower prices”. Unless someone dare say she is disingenuous! I guess it still bothers me (a lot) that we have snake salespeople out there peddling property. When, if ever, will this industry work to gain some credibility?

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  10. shawn

    RE: Ray Pepper @ 5
    Ray said “So many idiots in this profession it makes me sick!”
    its a good thing you are a nurse :)

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  11. shawn

    RE: Dave0 @ 9 – two years! Get it while it is hot, hot, hot! Lots of foot traffic, things are picking up, this place will go fast, hurry, the price will never be lowered, lightening bolt seen stiking a Realtor, God saying “enough is enough.”

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  12. cutienoua

    This is a stupid title. Nothing disappeared in Alki, or they are talking about shadow inventory?!

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  13. cheapseats

    RE: The Tim @ 3 – She clearly needs to raise the prices. What is she thinking?

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  14. DavidB

    Easy for Randi Stone to say she’s not willing to cut the condo price. I’m sure Randi has given the owner the wrong impression that they’ll be selling their condo at their “dream” price. I wonder how long the owner can continue to keep making payments on the condo. It seems like they’re better off cutting the price so it sells.

    I think too many people have the idea that real estate prices will jump back up in the next year to 2007 level prices.

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  15. AMS

    RE: cutienoua @ 13 – “Nothing disappeared in Alki”

    Where are the buyers?

    When a potential buyer enters the Alki Zone, he may never be seen again. lol.

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  16. Kary L. Krismer

    “The situation actually doesn’t look nearly as dreary as they make it sound on the news report.”

    What a shock. A news source trying to sensationalize the news! ;-)

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  17. Masaba

    RE: Ray Pepper @ 5

    Ray, I saw this segment on King 5 and thought the exact same thing. Five minutes of FREE publicity and she spends it saying:
    1) We won’t lower prices
    2) We aren’t giving condos away for free (ie. buyers must be stupid to think that we will lower prices)
    3) The market has to come back, it just has to (Do I sense some desperation?)

    She could have done her clients a favor by borrowing a line from the used car industry, “Rock bottom prices, every offer considered, everything must go!”

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  18. anonymous

    The prices aren’t dropping much in Alki, but that doesn’t mean many are selling at the current price. There are 2 places in Seattle I go by once in awhile that are just inundated with for sale and for rent signs. Alki and Mercer Island. Each has about 5 times the signage of anywhere else I can think of.

    I think the standoff between sellers and buyers is still going strong in those neighborhoods. Sellers won’t budge (much) on price, therefore there are almost no buyers.

    “Everything will even out, it will get better. It just will,” Can you hear the desperation in that?

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  19. AMS

    RE: anonymous @ 19 – “I think the standoff between sellers and buyers is still going strong in those neighborhoods.”

    Yet cheap rent just keeps getting cheaper.

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  20. anonymous

    Also, “She believes condos are a luxury item”

    Of course. Who wouldn’t rather listen to their neighbors walking around upstairs and fornicating on the other side of the bedroom wall than live in a quiet, boring house? The extra sound effects from the neighbor’s subwoofers while watching TV are worth a grand a month alone!

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  21. anonymous

    RE: AMS @ 20 – I just did a Craigslist search for Alki rentals. Holy Smokes! You weren’t kidding!

    Tough to filter out all the Delridge/White Center listings though. I wish Craigslist had a map search for rentals.

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  22. AMS

    RE: anonymous @ 21 – A believer! Yes! I guess the theory is that as a believer (and likely member of the Church of Real Estate):

    1. Fornication is not possible, as only married people occupy the condos.
    2. Condos, like all other real estate, can only go up in value.
    3. Lesser people think differently, and have a higher likelihood of fornicating, but these non-believers don’t live in condos.

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  23. Kary L. Krismer

    A while ago I was looking at waterfront on Hood Canal, and almost nothing was selling. The only thing I saw in the area I looked at was an estate sale situation.

    That is a bit different than your typical fight between sellers and buyers, because waterfront is a more limited commodity than your average home, and thus if you own it the time is not really great to sell. Stated differently, waterfront has a better chance of recovering a greater portion of the lost value. The Alki properties here would be somewhere in-between in that it’s really just view property, and view property is much more common.

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  24. AMS

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 25 – How much less does a Hood Canal place that’s not on the waterfront sell for, in percentage terms?

    As prices go down, does the percentage discount for not being waterfront go up (i.e. a larger price gap)?

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  25. Lake Hills Renter

    Year and a half? That’s nothing. There’s a house on my way to work that’s been for sale for the better part of 4 years now. Last time I looked (~year ago) they’d dropped the price a whole $20k — on a $550k (asking) house.

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  26. softwarengineer

    A Silver Lining

    Folks snapping up $300-600K waterfront condos aren’t likely in the $15/hr avg per capita Seattle pay area; 1.2 incomes per home owner or not. They don’t possibly qualify.

    These folks buying in Alki thought it was an investment at the time and many had or still have $60-100K type per capita incomes; way above the Seattle area avg pay.

    That’s why they can sit at high prices and wait for the imminent RE bottom and price escalation future they predict. I should loan them my Stephen King “Under the Dome” book I’m reading; the fantasy story fits right into their overly optimistic predictions…LOL

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  27. AMS

    RE: Lake Hills Renter @ 27 – I’d love to see how they value the delay of sale by four years. I’d price the delay at about 10% per year. Even if they sell for the full asking price, the delay in time has cost 30-40%. I am also willing to bet that when the person purchased the place they did not price the risk of not being able to sell for four years. What does this say about the liquidity of real estate?

    Who wants to wait four years to sell a place?

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  28. AMS

    RE: softwarengineer @ 28 – We all must cash our chips in at some point…

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  29. softwarengineer

    RE: AMS @ 29

    Most Don’t Have Adequate Cash Savings and have Financial Limits to Wait Time

    Especially with an imminent job loss or a household income’s unemployment extention ran dry early this year.

    The bargain vultures will be able to swoop down on some nifty foreclosure deals very soon, especially the cash rich ones.

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  30. AMS

    RE: softwarengineer @ 31 – Let’s assume the owner is adequately capitalized. What’s the cost of delaying a sale for four years, even if the asking price is realized?

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  31. softwarengineer

    RE: AMS @ 32

    Good Point

    Buying bad condo deals and sitting on them in any investment scenario is like buying a new car off the lot and expecting it to go up in price…LOL

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  32. AMS

    RE: softwarengineer @ 33 – The problem is that the asking price probably won’t be realized, yet the owner will cash his chips in sooner or later. (I am assuming that it’s a natural person who owns, not an infinite life entity, such as a corporation.)

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  33. Kary L. Krismer

    RE: AMS @ 26 – I didn’t look for that, and so little was selling that it would really be impossible to say. You’d really need to go back maybe to 2007 to get a percentage like that.

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  34. AMS

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 35 – What did you base your conclusion that the waterfront properties have a greater chance to recover in value faster?

    Faster than what?

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  35. CCG

    Reality would set in a lot faster if people understood opportunity cost. There’s a place near me for lease for $1800/month. I offered $1000 (what I’m paying now for a comparable place). No dice. That was a year ago. $12,000 pissed away.

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  36. AMS

    RE: CCG @ 37 – That’s not opportunity cost, but rather loss minimization. I suspect that the $1,800 per month is near the break-even point. Rather than take a loss of $800 per month, the owner would rather take a loss of $1,800 per month. We do not know if there is someone who would pay $1,200, however.

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  37. Gilly

    There are discounts even in Alki. Couple of weeks ago I got an eflyer for “boutique condos” on Alki in the $500ks, it claimed prices were reduced by $300k. The building is 1350 Alki.
    http://www.redfin.com/WA/Seattle/1350-Alki-Ave-SW-98116/unit-2N/home/17382057

    Presumably a builder’s bankruptcy or foreclosure; there are more of those on Alki being held off the market in hope the market recovers.

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  38. shawn

    RE: anonymous @ 22 – I use a craigslist filter, you can find them on download.com

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  39. EconE

    RE: Gilly @ 39

    I toured those condos a couple years ago during an open house. Wasn’t extremely impressed with the quality. Told the agent that they’d be going back to the bank before they sell for 700k+.

    Lo and behold.

    The bank kept them off the market for quite some time and are currently pricing them to recoup 100%+ of the construction loan. 9 of the 10 units are empty and the loan was around 4.5 million.

    Still not worth what they are asking.

    A “discount” does not equate to a reasonable price.

    Of course, I’d never expect a realtor to EVER say something is overpriced.

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  40. Kary L. Krismer

    RE: AMS @ 36 – That it’s a more limited resource. And by recover faster I simply mean go up in value faster. I wasn’t trying to say it would match the peak.

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  41. AMS

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 42 – There are lots of limited (or scarce) resources. There is no correlation, that I know of, between scarcity of a resource and how fast prices recover.

    In economics terms, you are suggesting that the Quantity is fixed, but that does not speak to Demand. Simply put, what if the area is becoming unfavorable to consumers for some reason. Going further, you suggest that the recovery rate is faster. I’ll assume that you mean go up in value faster than some other properties. We don’t know what the supply and demand is for the other properties, nor how it might shift based on consumer behavior.

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  42. AMS

    RE: EconE @ 41 – 1/10 occupancy–That one person is living in a ghost building.

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  43. AMS

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 42 – I just went out and my neighbor pulled up with a smashed vehicle. Thinking of your claim about “a limited resource going up in value faster,” I suggested that he now owns a “custom one-of-a-kind” vehicle–VERY LIMITED! I then suggest that according to Kary L. Krismer it’s sure to go up in value faster. He was not amused. lol.

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  44. softwarengineer

    RE: AMS @ 44

    Yes AMS

    Its makes the HOA dues a joke, when the total amount collected to keep the building from quickly deteriorating is a joke.

    Did I hear rental units?

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  45. AMS

    RE: softwarengineer @ 46 – Imagine the HOA meetings.

    That’s 9 for me, and 1 for you.

    Worse yet, think if you were the one trying to sell. The other party could always price you out. And what buyer wants to buy the only sold unit?

    It’s time for more popcorn!

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  46. EconE

    RE: AMS @ 44

    That’s not the only building along Alki at 1/10 occupancy or less. Many more…both new construction & conversions.

    Pass the popcorn please!

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  47. Kary L. Krismer

    RE: AMS @ 43 – Yes, we don’t know when or even if it will. That’s why I said greater chance of recovering faster.

    My opinion is probably affected considerably by the fact that I consider waterfront (on lakes and the Hood Canal) to be rather special property. Thus, while I wouldn’t suggest that someone buy or sell most land today based on what it might be worth 1-5 years from now, I would make an exception for waterfront. I wouldn’t sell now unless I had to. The buy side is a bit different. For buyers there are probably a lot of people now where waterfront is within reach but wasn’t before, so if waterfront was their long-term goal and they found the right property I’d suggest going for it. I know that sounds like buy now or be priced out forever, but with waterfront that is much more likely to be the case. That doesn’t mean I don’t think it couldn’t drop further, but at least the buyer could sit on their own beach knowing they’ve been able to fulfill a major goal of theirs. Worse things could happen.

    Oh, and again, I wouldn’t call Alki waterfront because the property for the most part is not actually on the water. It’s view property.

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  48. AMS

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 49 – As a devout believer in Hood Canal waterfront property value, it’s time for me to pass the donation vessel over for your required contribution to my Church of Real Estate.

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  49. voight-kampff

    RE: EconE @ 48

    for years Ive heard people here mention “get the popcorn”, or some such phrase. Is this suppose to refer to you watching this mess unfold as if in a movie? (Im not being a smart-a#@, Im really asking)

    if you are just observing, please remember that quantum mechanics tells us that even the observer influences their own reality/outcome/experiment :-)

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  50. Kary L. Krismer

    Just to put some numbers on this, as far as being within reach, using Lake Washington roughly south of I-90, between 8/23/09 to today there were three sales under $750,000, and only a total of 13 sales. The same period 06-07 there was only one sale at $975,000, and everything else was over $1,000,000. Surprisingly the mean/median didn’t change all that much.

    To try to give some sort of comparison, during the earlier period there were two Crescent Key listings that sold for roughly 2.5 million. This period there was one that sold for 1.35.
    For Hood Canal, from Belfair down to where it narrows before the bend, there were only five sales during the current period, and most of those were what I would call junk lots. The most expensive sale was only $365,000. The same period 06/07 there were only 2 of the 8 sales below $350,000, and the mean/median were both over twice that of the current numbers.

    I don’t mean to suggest these Hood Canal sales were of comparable properties, but only that there really aren’t a lot of buyers looking for high end properties in that area today. If you were such a buyer you’d have a fairly good bargaining position, and if you were a seller you’d have next to none.

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  51. AMS

    RE: voight-kampff @ 51 – Check these out:


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-LYWCqaVuY

    And the original Thriller:
    (specifically 3:30-4:05)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izS67QTVAjk

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  52. Scotsman

    RE: voight-kampff @ 51

    “if you are just observing, please remember that quantum mechanics tells us that even the observer influences their own reality/outcome/experiment :-)”

    Time for another poll- we need to get an updated bear/bull count so we can see which way this market is going to swing! Popcorn may be involved!

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  53. Scotsman

    RE: AMS @ 53

    Hard to believe that’s MJ- talk about evolution/devolution.

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  54. EconE

    RE: voight-kampff @ 51

    It’s pretty much as you say….only it’s like watching a movie that you’ve seen a thousand times so you know what’s coming. Perhaps something warped such as ‘Pulp Fiction’ or ‘A Clockwork Orange’.

    Keith at Housingpanic liked to use the phrase “Got Popcorn?” quite frequently…so…it has stuck with the old time bubble bloggers.

    http://housingpanic.blogspot.com/2007/08/got-popcorn.html

    Europe was an obvious disaster in the making too. Had to hit the snack bar for that one.

    This is what he said for them…

    “Got Popcorn” might do for the US. But in the UK and other parts of Europe, you’re gonna need more than that. Got popcorn, nachos, the supersize Coke, some Jelly Bellys, some Goobers, and hell even grab the Milk Duds.

    And get ready to enjoy the show.”

    http://housingpanic.blogspot.com/2008/04/worldwide-housing-crash-hits-europe-you.html

    What’s coming with regards to Alki Real Estate?

    Well…knowing much (but probably not all) of the shadow inventory in that area, seeing what has sold in the past, what people are asking, when they bought, what they paid etc. etc. it’s pretty obvious…people need to lower their prices if they want their condos to move.

    WRT quantum physics…

    I’ve been an observer of the bubble since 2004.
    I didn’t seem to have much effect on the way up or the way down.

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  55. Racket

    By Kary L. Krismer @ 49:

    RE: AMS @ 43
    My opinion is probably affected considerably by the fact that I consider waterfront (on lakes anI know that sounds like buy now or be priced out forever, but with waterfront that is much more likely to be the case.

    Again, I have to agree with Kerry.

    I just closed on a .60 acre lot on the waterfront in northern edmonds, for under $200k I couldnt afford it 10 years ago, 5 years ago, and certainly not 3 years ago when the property sold for almost $500k before some work was done.

    Raw land is really cheap right now. I honestly feel that if I didn’t but it now, I would be priced out forever.

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  56. AMS

    RE: Racket @ 57 – I hope it works out well for you. I have no idea if your land will go up or down in value significantly in the future.

    “I honestly feel that if I didn’t but it now, I would be priced out forever.”

    It’s time for me to pass the donation vessel over for your required contribution to my Church of Real Estate.

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  57. Kary L. Krismer

    RE: AMS @ 58 – The point isn’t whether or not it will go up or down from here. The point is he wanted waterfront property and hasn’t been able to buy it for at least the past 10 years (more likely his entire life) because of the price. The present day presents an opportunity.

    This is considerably different than wanting a 4 bedroom, 4.5 bath, 4200 square foot home on a 26,000 square foot lot. Those have gone down by a similar percentage, but the thing is those can be built in lots of places. But if at any given time you can’t afford one, you could always settle on a 4 bedroom, 2.5 bath, 2800 square foot home on a 12,000 foot lot. Thus, the concern about the future isn’t nearly as great. With waterfront, there is no substitute, other than maybe living near the waterfront at someplace like Alki.

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  58. AMS

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 59 – There is a big difference between suggesting that one will be “priced out forever” and “I am happy to buy at the current price.”

    There are plenty of purchases that people are happy with, even if the value quickly goes down. I’ve suggested my favorite is coffee, but others buy hookers and blow. I don’t suggest that I will be “priced out forever.”

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  59. Kary L. Krismer

    RE: AMS @ 60 – I’m not saying you will be priced out forever, just that it’s more likely with waterfront than other properties. Waterfront is more affected by population growth than other properties, so even if median income stayed the same for the next 20 years, if the population doubled in that time the price of waterfront would go up more than other properties (absent perhaps incomes equalizing–which I don’t see happening).

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  60. Racket

    By AMS @ 58:

    RE: Racket @ 57 – I hope it works out well for you. I have no idea if your land will go up or down in value significantly in the future.

    .

    With my projections, even if home values drop another 25% I can still sell the proposed house for a profit, a lesser profit, but still a profit. It’s going to take a lot of sweat to erect a structure, but this is the only way I can afford (even at current pricing) of owning a waterfront home in the 206, and 425 area codes.

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  61. AMS

    RE: Racket @ 62 – This is what I like to see: “With my projections, even if home values drop another 25% I can still sell the proposed house for a profit, a lesser profit, but still a profit.”

    Sounds like you made a good buy.

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  62. AMS

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 61 – You are making the basic assumption that in the future there will be more demand for waterfront property. I don’t know what you base this assumption on. That is, how do you know that in the future waterfront property will be in greater demand based on population. Possibly consumers will seek other properties. If you are right that there will be an increase in demand for a limited resource, then it does follow that prices will go up, but what we do not know is if prices will go up faster than other properties which might be in even greater demand. Also if the other properties start at a lower point, possibly they will recover faster, as the waterfront properties started high at the onset of “recovery.”

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  63. Kary L. Krismer

    By AMS @ 64:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 61 – You are making the basic assumption that in the future there will be more demand for waterfront property. I don’t know what you base this assumption on. That is, how do you know that in the future waterfront property will be in greater demand based on population.

    I think that’s a fairly safe assumption to make, unless perhaps the press starts covering drownings as the next big threat to personal safety. ;-)

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  64. AMS

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 65 – Well, I never made and don’t make that same assumption…

    (What would happen to waterfront prices if everyone did make the same assumption?)

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  65. Scott Weitz

    “it will get better, it just will”….what a great economic analysis supported by fundamentals.

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  66. Scott Weitz

    RE: EconE @ 56

    That blog is a joke. He’s way to political.

    Neither party can fix the great debt unwinding that is underway.

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  67. AMS

    By Scott Weitz @ 68:

    Neither party can fix the great debt unwinding that is underway.

    Pass the popcorn!

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  68. EconE

    RE: Scott Weitz @ 68

    Where did I say anything about politics?

    I was asked about the popcorn comments.

    I would expect better reading comprehension from an esssquire.

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  69. MooseGH

    Re: waterfront properties. IMO, waterfront within comfortable commuting distance of the larger cities will always be highly sought after and priced accordingly. Waterfront which is further out in the sticks (like Hood Canal) I believe will not be able to sustain high values as well in the future. Why? Look who lives there – a large percentage of retired folks. As the baby boomers begin to pass on more quickly than the pace of folks retiring, a lack of demand will be created. Many people who would love to live on Hood Canal simply can’t because of the need for a daily drive in to work somewhere. This will be compounded by the fact that many potential buyers will have to postpone retirement awhile longer than planned to make up for their wiped out portfolios.

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  70. Kary L. Krismer

    RE: MooseGH @ 71 – Hood Canal is well within commuting range for PSNS (or whatever it’s called now), and even Bangor (which I think also has the same name as PSNS now).

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  71. AMS

    RE: MooseGH @ 71 – All of this “waterfront property” will always be in high demand is based on personal opinion about such. I know plenty of people who have suggested that this or that will always be in high demand, and then consumer behavior shifts. I am not suggesting that waterfront property will change, but rather, I’d like to see some methodology other than personal opinion.

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  72. Scott Weitz

    RE: EconE @ 70

    I was talking about the blog that you recommended (not your reference to it). The blog writer is far too politically motivated, and clearly a far lefty.

    The “pass the popcorn” reference is great, although I think he may have stole that from Terrel Owens.

    FYI: For a great economic blog: http://market-ticker.denninger.net/

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  73. MooseGH

    Kary and AMS – you are both correct. However I would submit to Kary that the PSNS, while certainly a large area employer, doesn’t draw the crowds that Seattle, Tacoma, etc do. And AMS I certainly have no facts or data to back up my opinion – it’s just a hunch, really, based on my own casual observations. Perhaps colored by the fact that I have always dreamed of waterfront but watched that ship sail off into the distance almost a decade ago. Disclaimer: I have no RE experience other than buying the home I currently live in and reading this blog. Feel free to assign the value to my opinion that you paid for it, or, as my wife usually does, blow it off entirely LOL…

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  74. AMS

    RE: MooseGH @ 75 – And let me say that I have no data to dispute that the properties won’t go up. In other words, I am not sure that the waterfront properties will recover better or worse than the general market. I suspect that the supply of Alki homes will keep prices low in that area, however.

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  75. NoahFect

    The elephant on the beach, of course, is the Viaduct.

    Nobody wants to live in West Seattle because when they tear down the viaduct, commuting will be, er, a bit more “challenging.”

    “Challenging,” as in, if you don’t enjoy getting up at 4 AM to go to work, you’d better buy a helicopter.

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  76. Racket

    9/10 people don’t think that way.

    If we could give a couple making $40k a year a loan on a $800K condo, they’d all be sold.

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  77. Steve Roth

    RE: The Tim @ 24

    Check out padmapper.com. Much better interface and data updating, and sucks listings from apartments.com and others as well as craigslist.

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