Posted by: Timothy Ellis (The Tim)

Tim Ellis is the founder of Seattle Bubble. His background in engineering and computer / internet technology, a fondness of data-based analysis of problems, and an addiction to spreadsheets all influence his perspective on the Seattle-area real estate market.

472 responses to “Politics & Economics Open Thread”

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  1. Macro Investor

    I would like to point we have new data on the Seattle median price, and it’s great news for folks waiting for better prices. Maybe banks are really discounting the shadow inventory to blow it out the door, or higher end houses aren’t selling as well. Either way, it’s a good 10% lower than it was a year ago. And this is with the lowest rates in history and a somewhat functional economy.

    Happy new year, and be careful out there. The bubble has a long, long way to go:

    (see altos chart on Tim’s home page for details)

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  2. Scotsman

    I’m surprised I beat pfffffft to this one:

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  3. Kary L. Krismer

    Here’s a story I find interesting on how individual people deal with economic issues.

    http://www.aljazeera.com/news/africa/2012/01/20121119555928543.html

    Nigeria is ending its subsidy of gasoline, previously at 44 cents a liter. The masses are apparently upset, apparently thinking that’s where they want their government benefits to go.

    Politically it doesn’t seem too wise because they didn’t announce anything to pair with it. Perhaps a nice annual rebate check, like Alaska has (had?).

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  4. Pegasus

    For pfft: Krugman: Time For A Skullf%c*ing

    This fool continues to prove that having a Nobel is actually a sign of stupidity rather than intelligence.

    It would be nice if Krugman, before shooting off his mouth with statements that have a basis in fact (you’re fine so long as you increase output more than you increase debt) would actually look to see whether the nation has managed to do this at any time in the last 30 years on an aggregate basis. If he had, he would have recognized, using nothing other than the Fed Z1 and BEA GDP series, that it had not and thus his claimed tonic was a crock.

    And so, once again, is Krugman.

    http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=199975

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  5. pfft

    the demise of the dollar has been greatly exaggerated.

    Dollar Demise Refuted With 13% Gain Since 2008
    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-01-02/dollar-s-demise-exaggerated-as-13-gain-since-2008-proves-currency-s-value.html

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  6. pfft

    By Macro Investor @ 1:

    I would like to point we have new data on the Seattle median price, and it’s great news for folks waiting for better prices. Maybe banks are really discounting the shadow inventory to blow it out the door, or higher end houses aren’t selling as well. Either way, it’s a good 10% lower than it was a year ago. And this is with the lowest rates in history and a somewhat functional economy.

    Happy new year, and be careful out there. The bubble has a long, long way to go:

    (see altos chart on Tim’s home page for details)

    I’ve started to wonder lately if people are listing homes only because sentiment. how many people will take their homes off the market if we get a slowing of the decline or even an outright upturn prices?

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  7. pfft

    By Scotsman @ 2:

    I’m surprised I beat pfffffft to this one:

    months old. funny though.

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  8. pfft

    By Pegasus @ 4:

    For pfft: Krugman: Time For A Skullf%c*ing

    This fool continues to prove that having a Nobel is actually a sign of stupidity rather than intelligence.

    It would be nice if Krugman, before shooting off his mouth with statements that have a basis in fact (you’re fine so long as you increase output more than you increase debt) would actually look to see whether the nation has managed to do this at any time in the last 30 years on an aggregate basis. If he had, he would have recognized, using nothing other than the Fed Z1 and BEA GDP series, that it had not and thus his claimed tonic was a crock.

    And so, once again, is Krugman.

    http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=199975

    krugman has been more right about this crisis than almost all so-called gurus like peter schiff or ron paul. these people have been disastrously wrong while krugman has been right the whole time.

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  9. pfft

    green shoots long since vindicated.

    PMI went into expansion and has been there since the summer of 2009 when the recession ended.

    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ruc6uiFwoaE/TwMYfOS6wJI/AAAAAAAALxc/b5VE2byays4/s1600/ISMMfgDec2011.jpg

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  10. pfft
  11. Kary L. Krismer

    I can’t find the thread, but last week there was some discussion of the effect of inflation on government, where I brought up the fact that inflation benefits the government somewhat, in that they pay back the debt in devalued dollars (which offsets to some extent their higher borrowing costs going forward).

    One thing that has since occurred to me is that in such a market, people are going to be wanting out of their existing government bond investments. Those people will need other investors to buy their bonds, at the same time the government is trying to sell bonds to fund existing operations. Obviously the government has been through this in the past, but not with so many bonds outstanding. I could see it starting a vicious circle, because the government would have to offer higher rates, which could lead to even more selling.

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  12. pfft

    how did I miss this?

    A Christmas Message From America’s Rich
    http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/a-christmas-message-from-americas-rich-20111222

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  13. One Eyed Man
  14. Kary L. Krismer

    RE: One Eyed Man @ 13 – Maybe other things are countering that news, like Europe and Iran.

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  15. pfft

    preach it keynes!

    “The boom, not the slump, is the right time for austerity at the Treasury.” So declared John Maynard Keynes in 1937, even as F.D.R. was about to prove him right by trying to balance the budget too soon, sending the United States economy — which had been steadily recovering up to that point — into a severe recession. Slashing government spending in a depressed economy depresses the economy further; austerity should wait until a strong recovery is well under way.

    Keynes Was Right
    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/30/opinion/keynes-was-right.html?_r=2&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

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  16. David Losh

    On NPR the Mexico City correspondent for the New York Times made an observation about immigration in Central America. People are coming down from the hills to work in urban centers on construction of housing units.

    He used Oaxaca Mexico as an example. They are converting close in farm land into residential building lots. That sounds very familiar.

    Next we will be hearing about the number of people who are behind on mortgage payments in Oaxaca, and that will be a crisis for the financial markets.

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  17. David Losh

    RE: Macro Investor @ 1

    As long as I’m here “new data on the Seattle median price” is completely meaningless. It always has been, always will be.

    Unlike those ETrade stock picks that everybody loves to play with, Real Estate, each unit, has a value. Real Estate has an economic viability.

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  18. Kary L. Krismer

    By David Losh @ 17:

    As long as I’m here “new data on the Seattle median price” is completely meaningless. It always has been, always will be.

    Not completely. It is an indicator of market health.

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  19. Blurtman

    RE: pfft @ 5 – Great news if you want to buy foreign currencies.

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  20. Scotsman

    A pictoral history of the duration of the world’s reserve currencies:

    http://azizonomics.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/20120103_jpm_reserve.png?w=500&h=423

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  21. Scotsman

    30 year Treasury yields- time for a rebound? (it’s a picture, pfffft)

    http://azizonomics.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/untitled.jpg

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  22. whatsmyname

    http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/01/14/things-were-supposed-to-be-quiet-about/

    Working harder, getting less? Well don’t be spouting off at the 1%; that’s just envy. It’s not like they were taking it from you. Or were they?

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  23. NESeattleSeller

    Commercial office space increasingly absorbed and rents rising:
    http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2017234515_office14.html

    Unemployment is down. Boeing is moving some jobs to the PNW. SFR house rents are rising. It seem like, however slowly, the economy here is improving.

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  24. Scotsman

    RE: NESeattleSeller @ 23

    Indeed, indeed! Bears to the right and left are cpitulating and admitting their mistakes, even CHS:

    http://www.oftwominds.com/blogjan12/wrong-about-everything01-12.html

    “The economy has not just dodged recession, it’s in full-blown recovery. The only two indicators that are going down are the VIX volatility index, which might just fall to near-zero as investors realize there’s no longer any downside in the market and therefore no need to buy hedges, and the unemployment rate, which is steadily declining.

    2012 is like 1956, 1964, 1984 and 1996: the economy is booming, and a sitting president has wisely overseen the application of brilliant policies by the Pentagon, the State and Treasury departments and the Federal Reserve. The policies were simple: when “more of the same” didn’t work, do even more of the same. That did the trick in everything from waging war to finding new energy sources to stabilizing the financial and housing markets.

    This quote from President Calvin Coolidge neatly sums up 2012: If you see ten troubles coming down the road, you can be sure that nine will run into the ditch before they reach you. All we as a nation had to do to get through the rough patch of 2007-2011 was just do more of what we were doing before. And voila, all our troubles ran into the ditch. We have abundant energy, expanding opportunity, a growing economy, limitless credit and enjoy the highest possible levels of political liberty and human freedom.

    And it’s now obvious that this renewed prosperity will easily last to 2022 and beyond. The only question for the coming decade is how much better everything will be for everyone in 2022

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  25. Kary L. Krismer

    From 18 Months Later Thread:

    By softwarengineer @ 37:

    RE: Scotsman @ 20

    There’s Two Sides to This “Tax the Rich” Conundrum

    The billionaire Buffet side is the rich don’t pay enough taxes, including Romney at $41M income …

    More than two sides.

    I think you need to distinguish between Romney, who pays 14+ percent because it’s largely investment income, and Gingrich, who pays over 30% because it’s largely income from services.

    If you tax those like Romney more, fewer people will be employed in the private sector so that the public sector can spend more. And the increased spending will likely be necessary–for unemployment benefits.

    If you tax those like Gingrich more, there will also be a decrease in employment in the private sector, but it will be indirect and likely less. Fewer people will be employed at Tiffany’s (assuming he’s still married to the wife with the $500,000 account there).

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  26. Scotsman

    The debt generation:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnDyXrSwJnA

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  27. Trigger

    RE: Scotsman @ 26 – Scotsman – if there is no debt there is no money in circulation. If everybody paid off the debt there would be no money in circulation. So we are in a debt driven economy. This is normal.

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  28. Kary L. Krismer

    When you don’t have any ideas, break laws. Yeah, that will work to sway public opinion. Morons.

    http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/01/28/10260959-oakland-assesses-city-hall-damage-after-occupy-break-in

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  29. pfft

    By Kary L. Krismer @ 28:

    When you don’t have any ideas, break laws.

    you did a rick perry oops!

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  30. Kary L. Krismer
  31. Scotsman

    So the FOMC is saying that it would like inflation to be about 2% annually, but is expecting it only to be 1.4 to 2.0% over the next 3 years. Putting 2 and (less than) 2 together, the FOMC is telling us that, based on its price stability objective alone, the Fed is expecting inflation to be lower than it would like. In other words, even if the economy were at full employment, a little more stimulus would be called for. And of course, nobody thinks the U.S. is anywhere close to full employment. The Fed’s forecast is for an unemployment rate between 7.4 and 8.1% for 2013.

    Interpretation: the Fed is expecting to exert some additional stimulus. Large-scale asset purchases– referred to popularly as more “quantitative easing”– are the primary tool available. So, if your motto is “don’t bet against the Fed,” then I wouldn’t bet against more QE during 2012

    http://www.econbrowser.com/archives/2012/01/inflation_expec_1.html

    .

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  32. David Losh

    RE: Scotsman @ 31

    Actually, it appears more stimulus is deflationary.

    Had the fed done nothing, had they stayed out of the way, there may, or may not have been a collapse of the financial markets. That would have been extremely inflationary.

    As it is there is so much money in the system, money that makes money by just being there, that there is no need to drive up the cost of goods. As a matter of fact there is so much much cash in the system globally no one knows how to spend it all.

    We have global wealth.

    I know you like to talk about debt, but debt is money, debt makes money. Debt is attempting to suck cash out of the economy, and that isn’t working.

    What happened? Computers happened, accounting got easier, and we can track the smallest movement in any market.

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  33. Kary L. Krismer

    By pfft @ 29:

    By Kary L. Krismer @ 28:
    When you don’t have any ideas, break laws.

    you did a rick perry oops!

    Once again, you don’t know what you’re talking about.

    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2012/01/31/MN7E1N0JU1.DTL

    Even those within the movement have a problem with what I was complaining about.

    Although in your defense, I did have two more links to share, but I can’t remember what they are. ;-)

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  34. pfft

    By Kary L. Krismer @ 33:

    By pfft @ 29:
    By Kary L. Krismer @ 28:
    When you don’t have any ideas, break laws.

    you did a rick perry oops!

    Once again, you don’t know what you’re talking about.

    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2012/01/31/MN7E1N0JU1.DTL

    Even those within the movement have a problem with what I was complaining about.

    Although in your defense, I did have two more links to share, but I can’t remember what they are. ;-)

    so go to a GA and and put in a proposal that they propose ideas. looks like you might be there awhile though.

    http://occupyoakland.org/generalassembly/ga-proposals/

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  35. Kary L. Krismer

    RE: pfft @ 34

    My first proposal would be to rethink the whole idea of having a 24/7 protest during a period of high unemployment. You just attract homeless unemployed people, and appear to be the same. Also, two 12 hour protests weeks apart would be more effective than a 24/7 protest during that same timeframe.

    My second proposal would be to try to find someone who actually has a job, and find out who employs them. Try to avoid coming up with proposals thereafter that would simply cost people jobs (e.g. their don’t buy things campaign and trying to shut down ports).

    My third proposal would be that if there really all that concerned about high income people, attack it from a shareholder perspective, using shareholder rights. I doubt they’d get too far, but they would accomplish more than the nothing they’ve accomplished before.

    My fourth proposal would be for them to realize that while attacking income of corporate officers might be a good thing, that there’s nothing that you can do to prevent the wealthy from having power. By definition they will have better stuff and be able to do more things. For example, you can tell just by looking that this guy is not a greeter at Walmart.

    http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/sites/default/files/2012/01/rupert_murdoch_wendi_deng.jpg

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  36. David Losh

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 35

    The wealthy have no power, they have fear. Once you stop playing by the rules the world is completely open to you.

    You can call it criminal, or anarchy, or illegal, but I know for a fact, I can walk out the door today, and live well, for the rest of my life without a JOB. It takes no money, or savings, or government hand outs.

    It’s the same life that corporate leaders live. They take.

    Rather than accumulate you just use what you need, and move on. It’s been going on for decades in other parts of the world, we are just late to the party, and it is a party.

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  37. pfft

    By Kary L. Krismer @ 35:

    RE: pfft @ 34

    My first proposal would be to rethink the whole idea of having a 24/7 protest during a period of high unemployment. You just attract homeless unemployed people, and appear to be the same. Also, two 12 hour protests weeks apart would be more effective than a 24/7 protest during that same timeframe.

    My second proposal would be to try to find someone who actually has a job, and find out who employs them. Try to avoid coming up with proposals thereafter that would simply cost people jobs (e.g. their don’t buy things campaign and trying to shut down ports).

    My third proposal would be that if there really all that concerned about high income people, attack it from a shareholder perspective, using shareholder rights. I doubt they’d get too far, but they would accomplish more than the nothing they’ve accomplished before.

    My fourth proposal would be for them to realize that while attacking income of corporate officers might be a good thing, that there’s nothing that you can do to prevent the wealthy from having power. By definition they will have better stuff and be able to do more things. For example, you can tell just by looking that this guy is not a greeter at Walmart.

    http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/sites/default/files/2012/01/rupert_murdoch_wendi_deng.jpg

    Occupy Oakland should become a corporation then you’ll make every excuse in the world for whatever they do!

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  38. Kary L. Krismer

    RE: pfft @ 37 – Nice non-responsive answer. Just go on pretending that OWS is an effective organization.

    I don’t care for the Tea Party either, but at least they accomplish things they set out to accomplish. Wait, it goes beyond that. At least they have something they want to accomplish.

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  39. David Losh

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 38

    Let’s go way back to 1968. There was nothing in that era about peace, or love. It was a time of militancy. The President of the United States had been assasinated, his brother killed, and the leader of the non violent African American movement was also killed. It was a time of riots that elected Nixon on a law, and order platform. He went on to bomb the heck out of Laos, and Cambodia.

    1968 also gave us the rise of the Black Panther Movement.

    It all kind of fell apart with Woodstock, but the premise was the same. Militancy was the only way to make change.

    The Tea Party is a disaster, for America. It high lights everything that is wrong with the world today. They are self interest with no regard for who gets hurt along the way.

    The anarchy movement on the other hand is about no leaders, no government, no Wall Street. That’s who you have in the streets today. It is kind of masked by the huge homeless population, but the movement is still there.

    Now you should be gratefull for the anarchists. They are the ones that are keeping everything together. The problem that is coming is militant. It’s already happened in Europe, Africa, South America, Mexico, and small parts of Asia, including Russia.

    It hasn’t happened here because we are all so fat, and happy. God forbid if we ever have a growing poverty rate. Oops.

    Did you not see that coming? It’s anarchists. It’s not occupy anything, it’s anarchists. That movement has been growing for decades. It is well organized, just look at WTO here in Seattle. It’s also global.

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  40. Kary L. Krismer

    By David Losh @ 39:

    The anarchy movement on the other hand is about no leaders, no government, no Wall Street. That’s who you have in the streets today. It is kind of masked by the huge homeless population, but the movement is still there.

    That would lead to virtually everyone being virtually homeless, like a third world country, which is part of my problem with OWS. They don’t know what their goals are or what their policies should be. They’re very naive.

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  41. Kary L. Krismer

    Is the 243,000 net jobs added for January a non-seasonally adjusted number? If so, that seems really strong for January.

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  42. Scotsman

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 41

    TrimTabs: “Actual jobs outstanding, not seasonally adjusted, are down 2.9 million over the past two months”

    More black box numbers for public consumption. It’s all total B.S.

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  43. Your boss at Centcom

    Pffft,

    I’ll bet you spend a lot of time finding and thinking about items to post here. How many hours per week do you do this on various web sites like this one?

    I found an article I think you will like.

    U.S. military says Metal Gear sock puppets are real
    http://www.tgdaily.com/security-features/54733-us-military-says-metal-gear-sock-puppets-are-real

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  44. Blurtman

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 28 – Maybe they were searching for WMD’s.

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  45. pfft

    By Kary L. Krismer @ 38:

    RE: pfft @ 37 – Nice non-responsive answer. Just go on pretending that OWS is an effective organization.

    I don’t care for the Tea Party either, but at least they accomplish things they set out to accomplish. Wait, it goes beyond that. At least they have something they want to accomplish.

    income inequality wasn’t on the radar before OWS. now even Republicans are going all OWS. deal with it.

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  46. pfft

    By Scotsman @ 42:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 41

    TrimTabs: “Actual jobs outstanding, not seasonally adjusted, are down 2.9 million over the past two months”

    More black box numbers for public consumption. It’s all total B.S.

    of course it is. it isn’t what scotsman wants so he invents yet another bogus stat nobody has ever heard of.

    “TrimTabs: “Actual jobs outstanding, not seasonally adjusted, are down 2.9 million over the past two months”

    huh? who even cares? who has even heard that number before?

    don’t act like seasonal adjustments are some blackbox that was just invented. didn’t you brag about going to MIT?

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  47. pfft

    By Your boss at Centcom @ 43:

    Pffft,

    I’ll bet you spend a lot of time finding and thinking about items to post here. How many hours per week do you do this on various web sites like this one?

    I found an article I think you will like.

    U.S. military says Metal Gear sock puppets are real
    http://www.tgdaily.com/security-features/54733-us-military-says-metal-gear-sock-puppets-are-real

    how many hours per week do you care about what I post? get over it. I have a different opinion than you.

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  48. pfft

    I will be enjoying another 4 years of obama!

    Unemployment Rate Drops to 8.3%; Payrolls Jump
    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-02-03/payrolls-in-u-s-jumped-243-000-in-january-unemployment-rate-drops-to-8-3-.html

    in the last 5 months 1 million private sector jobs have been created.

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  49. Scotsman

    RE: pfft @ 46

    Stupid facts, ruining pfffffffffts day again:

    “Either there is something massively changed in the income tax collection world, or there is something very, very suspicious about today’s BLS hugely positive number,” adding, “Actual jobs, not seasonally adjusted, are down 2.9 million over the past two months. It is only after seasonal adjustments – made at the sole discretion of the Bureau of Labor Statistics economists – that 2.9 million fewer jobs gets translated into 446,000 new seasonally adjusted jobs.” A 3.3 million “adjustment” solely at the discretion of the BLS? ”

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/trimtabs-explains-why-todays-very-very-suspicious-nfp-number-really-down-29-million-past-2-mont

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  50. pfft

    By Scotsman @ 49:

    RE: pfft @ 46

    Stupid facts, ruining pfffffffffts day again:

    “Either there is something massively changed in the income tax collection world, or there is something very, very suspicious about todayâ��s BLS hugely positive number,” adding, “Actual jobs, not seasonally adjusted, are down 2.9 million over the past two months. It is only after seasonal adjustments â�� made at the sole discretion of the Bureau of Labor Statistics economists â�� that 2.9 million fewer jobs gets translated into 446,000 new seasonally adjusted jobs.” A 3.3 million “adjustment” solely at the discretion of the BLS? ”

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/trimtabs-explains-why-todays-very-very-suspicious-nfp-number-really-down-29-million-past-2-mont

    no so! did you ever stop and think wow that is a really large number? maybe it isn’t true?

    Employment: The “Not in Labor Force” actually declined in January
    http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2012/02/employment-not-in-labor-force-actually.html

    but hey you are in good company- zerohedge and rick santelli. just your crowd.

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  51. Blurtman

    RE: pfft @ 48 – Wake me when it is 5 and sustainable.

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  52. David Losh

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 40

    The Occupy Wall Street movement is very organized, with goals, and accomplishments. Number one it is global. We have seen demonstrations in Europe at the same time as protests here. http://articles.cnn.com/2011-10-15/world/world_europe_occupy-europe_1_protesters-black-bloc-anarchists?_s=PM:EUROPE

    The goal is the disruption of the financial markets. They won before they ever started. Occupy Wall Street is just a slogan to a much longer political presence.

    It’s now a common topic that even the right wing nut crowd discusses.

    The Tea Party on the other hand is what is wrong with the world today. This negative group seized on health care as an economic burden. They formed a political branch to be elected, and we now have members of Congress obstructing legislation in order to promote a personal agenda. They’ll have to be voted out, but will cost the tax payers billions of dollars in the process.

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  53. Scotsman

    RE: pfft @ 50

    Nope- try it will real verifiable numbers:

    http://market-ticker.org/cgi-ticker/akcs-www?post=201459

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  54. Kary L. Krismer

    By pfft @ 48:

    I will be enjoying another 4 years of obama!

    Unemployment Rate Drops to 8.3%; Payrolls Jump
    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-02-03/payrolls-in-u-s-jumped-243-000-in-january-unemployment-rate-drops-to-8-3-.html

    in the last 5 months 1 million private sector jobs have been created.

    Jobs created and unemployment are two different things, even if you don’t accept Scotsman’s numbers. I don’t think there’s much doubt that most of the drop in unemployment is due to people simply giving up. I’m basing that on the claim that you need something like 200,000 jobs a month just to keep even with population growth.

    If you accept that, a lot of people are still unemployed, so the lower unemployment numbers won’t affect that many votes. People will know that they’re still unemployed, that family members are still unemployed and that friends are still unemployed. Now maybe they won’t be able to afford the gas to go vote, but other than that, I think it’s reality that drives things when you’re dealing with a voter component which is larger than 5% of the population.

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  55. Kary L. Krismer

    By David Losh @ 52:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 40

    The Occupy Wall Street movement is very organized, with goals, and accomplishments.

    . . .

    The goal is the disruption of the financial markets.

    That’s one way to end economic inequality. Make everyone lower than welfare destitute!

    Reminds me of the joke about the guy who when granted three wishes asked that his dick would hit the ground, and the next day woke up with 4″ legs.

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  56. Kary L. Krismer

    By David Losh @ 52:

    The Tea Party on the other hand is what is wrong with the world today. This negative group seized on health care as an economic burden. They formed a political branch to be elected, and we now have members of Congress obstructing legislation in order to promote a personal agenda. They’ll have to be voted out, but will cost the tax payers billions of dollars in the process.

    I wouldn’t attack the Tea Party here. A lot of the posters here agree with it. What the Tea Party is against is deficit spending, as are many here.

    They also don’t like Obamacare, but not based on economic reasons as you claim. They believe it’s unconstitutional. I think it’s both unconstitutional and an economic time bomb.

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  57. pfft

    By Blurtman @ 51:

    RE: pfft @ 48 – Wake me when it is 5 and sustainable.

    you just hate the fact that things are getting better.

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  58. pfft

    By Kary L. Krismer @ 55:

    By David Losh @ 52:
    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 40

    The Occupy Wall Street movement is very organized, with goals, and accomplishments.

    . . .

    The goal is the disruption of the financial markets.

    That’s one way to end economic inequality.

    higher taxes on the rich.

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  59. pfft

    By Kary L. Krismer @ 56:

    By David Losh @ 52:
    The Tea Party on the other hand is what is wrong with the world today. This negative group seized on health care as an economic burden. They formed a political branch to be elected, and we now have members of Congress obstructing legislation in order to promote a personal agenda. They’ll have to be voted out, but will cost the tax payers billions of dollars in the process.

    I wouldn’t attack the Tea Party here. A lot of the posters here agree with it.

    that explains a lot.

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  60. pfft

    By Kary L. Krismer @ 54:

    By pfft @ 48:
    I will be enjoying another 4 years of obama!

    Unemployment Rate Drops to 8.3%; Payrolls Jump
    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-02-03/payrolls-in-u-s-jumped-243-000-in-january-unemployment-rate-drops-to-8-3-.html

    in the last 5 months 1 million private sector jobs have been created.

    Jobs created and unemployment are two different things, even if you don’t accept Scotsman’s numbers. I don’t think there’s much doubt that most of the drop in unemployment is due to people simply giving up. I’m basing that on the claim that you need something like 200,000 jobs a month just to keep even with population growth.

    If you accept that, a lot of people are still unemployed, so the lower unemployment numbers won’t affect that many votes. People will know that they’re still unemployed, that family members are still unemployed and that friends are still unemployed. Now maybe they won’t be able to afford the gas to go vote, but other than that, I think it’s reality that drives things when you’re dealing with a voter component which is larger than 5% of the population.

    in the article above.

    1) The decline in the participation rate was entirely due to the population change.
    2) The employment-population ration would have increased 0.3 (good news) without the population change.

    http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2012/02/employment-not-in-labor-force-actually.html

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  61. David Losh

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 55

    There is no welfare in anarchy. The Tea Party, on the other hand is asking the government to fix everything.

    And I wish you would stop using the term ObamaCare. Obama proposed a 10 page legislation that was looking very much like single payer insurance. Republicans didn’t like that, and went on a summer long campaign to insert a lot of nonsense, that probably is unConstitutional. That’s when the Tea Party was inflicted on us.

    The Republican Party is trying desperately to make Obama a bad guy. He’s not. He has done a hundred time more than I ever expected.

    As far as the economy of health care goes we will have to have an expansion of the Veterans Administration, and public health systems. The sooner that is accomplished the better it will be for Medicare, and Medicaid, which are economic time bombs.

    The government system of health care is already in place, it is a reality, and we should all be allowed access to it. Denying access to government administrated health care, as a matter of national security, is another gift Republicans want to give to the private Insurance Industry.

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  62. Kary L. Krismer

    By David Losh @ 60:

    There is no welfare in anarchy.

    That’s why I said they would make everyone lower than welfare destitute. If there were welfare, that would be the minimum level (Romney’s “safety net”) but without a functioning financial system, there would not be welfare.

    There would be nothing. No electricity, no public water or sewer, nothing.

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  63. David Losh

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 62

    How do you figure that?

    Do you think that at this late stage of the game all things would cease? No food, no water, no electricity, because the bank wouldn’t be in control? This is like your argument that businesses would fail without credit. You mean banks would fail without credit. Banks aren’t business. Insurance isn’t business. The financial markets aren’t business. They aren’t commerce.

    Banks, Insurance, and financial markets are the leeches of society. They are the welfare state that all politicians want to perpetuate. That’s why the Tea Party is such a sham. The Tea Party got scared that they would lose the welfare system they hold on to.

    Read the Constitution. There is nothing in there about banks, insurance companies, or the financial markets. Those people wrapped themselves in the flag while they loot the American People.

    It’s interesting that you are basing an argument on “There would be nothing. No electricity, no public water or sewer, nothing.” Those are government built projects that are now a part of the over all financial system. How did that happen?

    We need to take our country back from the financial marketeers. The anarchist of the 1700s may have advocated dismantling the government, but today most people recognize the financial markets as the true enemy to eliminate.

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  64. David Losh

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 62

    Let me put this article here from 2001, http://monthlyreview.org/2001/09/01/anarchism-and-the-anti-globalization-movement#top it explains more about today’s anarchy movement, but obviously a lot has changed since it was published. Number one was a global economic collapse. It was a goal.

    I always like to include that here in the United States we have the problem of the Bill of Rights that says “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”

    We are a shining light in the libertarian, socialist, and anarchist movement.

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  65. Kary L. Krismer

    By David Losh @ 63:

    How do you figure that?

    Do you think that at this late stage of the game all things would cease? No food, no water, no electricity, because the bank wouldn’t be in control? This is like your argument that businesses would fail without credit. You mean banks would fail without credit. Banks aren’t business. Insurance isn’t business. The financial markets aren’t business.

    Without those things there is very little business. Small shops like in third world countries.

    Why do you think there are corporations? So people can pool their resources and accomplish more than by themselves.

    Why do you think that within about 5 days of 9/11, Congress passed the victims’ compensation act? It wasn’t for the victims. Congress wouldn’t act that quickly for mere victims. It was to save the insurance industry, because without insurance, almost all business would cease.

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  66. Kary L. Krismer

    By David Losh @ 63:

    Read the Constitution. There is nothing in there about banks, insurance companies. . .

    What? There’s no mention of farms either. Do you think farms are illegal?

    As to banks, the decision allowing national banks (as opposed to state banks) is almost 200 years old.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCulloch_v._Maryland

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  67. pfft

    green shoots? nah, so 3 years ago. slow recovery? yes.

    Recovery Measures
    http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2012/02/recovery-measures.html

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  68. David Losh

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 65

    You are right that it was to save the insurance industry, one of the greatest bail outs ever performed, and set the stage for all future bail outs. Then we had Hurricane Katrina, which was another insurance industry give away.

    Propping up these corporate structured entities is the welfare system of the United States. It’s a very failed socialist system that in the 1950s was going to take care of the citizens from cradle to grave. It didn’t work.

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  69. David Losh

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 66

    There is nothing illegal about banks. Banks have the full protection of the law. They just have be broken up, have a higher standard of regulation, and be closely monitored.

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  70. David Losh

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 65

    Let me also say that the Third World has a very sophisticated way of doing business that is much more in tune with who they serve. It has been going on for thousands of years rather than a couple of hundred.

    Most people forgot about, or ignored, the anti globalization movement that goes back to the 1970s. They win, you lose, and it’s just getting started.

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  71. Kary L. Krismer

    By David Losh @ 68:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 65

    You are right that it was to save the insurance industry, one of the greatest bail outs ever performed, and set the stage for all future bail outs. Then we had Hurricane Katrina, which was another insurance industry give away. .

    911 compensation wasn’t that big. Not sure why you think Katrina involved an insurance industry give away. People are not covered for what they to not buy coverage for (flooding).

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  72. Kary L. Krismer

    By David Losh @ 69:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 66

    There is nothing illegal about banks. Banks have the full protection of the law. They just have be broken up. . .

    I would agree, and have made similar comments here. Your problem isn’t with the Constitution, it’s with the lax enforcement of anti-trust laws (both in banking and other areas).

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  73. David Losh

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 72RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 71

    I’ll take both of these because they are related. The twin tower lawsuit is just now being resolved, however all of the individual lawsuits, or pay outs were a complete joke. We will never be made whole from the damage done by the actions committed. It depends on the policies, but I suspect this was considered an act of war.

    Hurricane Katrina was a natural disaster. The insurance industry should have been made to pay. The trick they used was flooding by causes off site of the property. It’s a tawdry trick, and there is an instance where our government should have intervened.

    You like the health insurance debate which was also gifted with the ability not to pay claims concerning AIDS. That was really the first salvo to an over all corrupt insurance system.

    Last, but hardly least is the insurance on mortgages. Where’s that? Oh yeah it’s the old 80%, 20% to avoid insurance pay outs. No one saw that one coming, except for the fact those mortgage backed securities were insured against losses, like at AIG. Even Geithner said that the insurance department of AIG was the strongest part.

    Taken all together, with what I’m sure are millions of example, the insurance industry collects money, spends it on expenses, like bonuses, fancy offices, Lear Jets, executive pay, and administration, but will quibble over paying claims.

    The system of insurance is broken, along with banking. It has nothing to do with anti trust. It is simply a broken system designed to pay executives excessively. The net drain to our economy is what is at issue.

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  74. Kary L. Krismer

    By David Losh @ 73:

    I’ll take both of these because they are related. The twin tower lawsuit is just now being resolved, however all of the individual lawsuits, or pay outs were a complete joke. We will never be made whole from the damage done by the actions committed. It depends on the policies, but I suspect this was considered an act of war.

    Hurricane Katrina was a natural disaster. The insurance industry should have been made to pay. The trick they used was flooding by causes off site of the property. It’s a tawdry trick, and there is an instance where our government should have intervened. .

    What twin tower lawsuits? Most if not all the victims took the government fund money, and the condition of doing so was not suing. That was the point of the program. Imagine how much money the insurance companies would have spent just defending the actions, and while they had, their solvency would have been called into question. Being insured by a possibly insolvent entity is not being insured, and that’s why it would have affected business.

    As to Katrina, flooding “causes off site of the property?” If you want flood insurance, you have to buy flood insurance. Same with earthquake. It’s not like you just buy homeowners’ insurance and are then covered no matter what happens to your house.

    As to AIG, most of that company was strong. It was one department which took it down.

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  75. David Losh

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 74

    The lawsuit for the twin towers was with Larry Silverstein, and the Port Authority. It only took ten years, and the reputation of the United States to get that settled. About the same amount of time it took us to get out of Iraq.

    Natural disaster is different than flooding, but again this was another indication that the United States is incapable of taking care of itself. We let a huge section of our country fall into bull dozable disrepair so insurance companies could hide behind the wording in a sales instrument.

    Well if AIG was so healthy, what was the problem? Surely they were insured against losses.

    We are exporting our insurance system to other parts of the world, just like we did with mortgages. Insurance companies take in pools of money, for what I have no idea, probably to invest. The whole thing is a house of cards.

    The anti globalization movement is now concentrated on excessive payments made to corporate executives. The ultimate goal is the collapse of this farce of creating an illusion that money is scarce. There is tons of money for everything, it’s being withheld, off market, in all of these schemes, that include taxation.

    Look at the facts. Workers pay into a system of mortgages, insurance, and taxation, and get nothing. Corporations play fast, and loose with the tax code, and get the full protection of the government. Corporations pay less, for everything, and get more.

    The Occupy Wall Street movement is now focused on the hive where these scams begin, and are played out. It’s a long time in the making, after decades of political wrangling.

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  76. Kary L. Krismer

    By David Losh @ 75:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 74 – The lawsuit for the twin towers was with Larry Silverstein, and the Port Authority. It only took ten years, and the reputation of the United States to get that settled. About the same amount of time it took us to get out of Iraq.

    I’m addressing the many lawsuits which would have been filed by the roughly 5,000 victims’ families, not just a suit over the building, which is what I assume you’re referring to.

    Natural disaster is different than flooding, but again this was another indication that the United States is incapable of taking care of itself. We let a huge section of our country fall into bull dozable disrepair so insurance companies could hide behind the wording in a sales instrument.

    Huh? Flooding is most typically a natural disaster. Flooding that isn’t (e.g. your refrigerator starts to leak) most likely would be covered.

    Well if AIG was so healthy, what was the problem? Surely they were insured against losses.

    Huh, again? They basically took the wrong side on mortgage derivatives. They weren’t insured against that, but I understand some of the parties on the other side of those contracts did take insurance on AIG performing. That wouldn’t help AIG, however, because their insurance companies would be subrogated to the rights of the insured, and could still sue AIG.

    You seem to have a hard time with accounting concepts. One part of a company can suffer losses so massive that it will bring down an entire entity. I think it was Orange County down in California where one trader made unauthorized trades which sent the county into bankruptcy. That’s basically what happened at AIG.

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  77. Blurtman

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 76 – One poorly performing division taking down an entire company is not that unusual. What is unusual is the government bail out. Recall in the AIG bail out, we bailed out folks who knowingly created toxic securities and insured the crap out of them, utlimately destroying AIG. We also bailed out speculators who did not own the underlying security and placed bets with AIG that the securities would tank. If a casino in Vegas goes under and you cannot collect on your Super Bowl bet, is the USG/taxpayer going to bail out the casino so that you can collect your winnings?

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  78. Kary L. Krismer

    By Blurtman @ 77:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 76 – One poorly performing division taking down an entire company is not that unusual.

    I would agree. I was just pointing out to Dave what happened, and giving another example.

    Perhaps explaining derivatives would be useful for Dave. Buying a call option on a stock is not that risky. All you can lose is your initial investment. Selling a call option (uncovered) is much more risky. Your loss is theoretically unlimited. AIG was taking more risky positions. Their potential loss was far greater than the revenue from each transaction, which was relatively low for each transaction.

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  79. Blurtman

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 78 – Yes, but if the seller of the call option (counter party) goes under, the loss from your unhedged position can be painful. And the CDS that AIG offered were not options, but something like insurance, with potentially unlimited losses to the insurer. Did AIG re-insure?

    Now imagine if you are the CEO of a company, and you take out a massive amount of puts on the company’s stock, and purposely execute a strategy that will destroy the company. What happens? Why, in addition to becoming fabulously wealthy, you get to become Treasury Secretary of the USA.

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  80. David Losh

    RE: Blurtman @ 79RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 78RE: Blurtman @ 77RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 76

    The two of you are brilliantly playing out the Occupy Wall Street movement, right here, in your comments.

    There was, and is, more than enough of a cash position to pay for any losses, from the twin towers, hurricane Katrina, and AIG, it’s just that no one wanted to pay.

    The language of the sales contracts was vague enough to stop payment.

    So we, the tax payers are on the hook, but the insurance industry gets a free pass, once again.

    If you want to talk about call options that is another can of worms that will be regulated, the way they are in some other countries.

    Kary, what you were claiming is that the Occupy Wall Street movement was disorganized, and without goals, or purpose. You are explaining the reason we need the Occupy Wall Street movement, and that it is exactly on target.

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  81. Blurtman

    RE: David Losh @ 80 – But Dave, leather clad dominatrix Suzie Ormand said to bail out AIG.

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  82. David Losh

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 78

    I understand the derivatives market extremely well. It now stands at $1.2 Quadrillion.

    http://www.dailyfinance.com/2010/06/09/risk-quadrillion-derivatives-market-gdp/

    What do you think the cash position is? and why don’t we simply tax the trades in derivatives, globally?

    Look it, I just picked the insurance industry as another example of a failed financial system, other than mortgages, which are a sham of over pricing asset values. Now you brought up derivatives. How much further do we need to go to demonstrate the need for financial reform?

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  83. Kary L. Krismer

    By David Losh @ 80:

    There was, and is, more than enough of a cash position to pay for any losses, from the twin towers, hurricane Katrina, and AIG, it’s just that no one wanted to pay..

    The twin towers was possibly more about uncertainty, but some insurers might very well have gone under.

    Katrina is obvious. No one wants to pay for something they are not contractually obligated to pay. If you feel differently, why don’t you go down to LA and find victims and give them as much money as you have.

    AIG there was not enough money. They were insolvent by several billion dollars. Their insolvency threatened the solvency of many other entities.

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  84. Blurtman

    RE: David Losh @ 80 – There likely was enough value in the break-up of AIG to pay off the gamblers who purchased the AIG FP CDS. But that would have taken considerable time, and Goldman Sachs would have imploded under the weight of the toxic dreck they had created purposely to short using AIG FP. So their criminal ex-CEO, who just happened to be the US Treasury Secretary, had the US taxpayer bail out Goldman Sachs via AIG. Many other banks were also so bailed out.

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  85. Kary L. Krismer

    By David Losh @ 82:

    How much further do we need to go to demonstrate the need for financial reform?

    We may need financial reform, but nothing you have discussed indicates that.

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  86. Kary L. Krismer

    By Blurtman @ 84:

    RE: David Losh @ 80 – There likely was enough value in the break-up of AIG to pay off the gamblers who purchased the AIG FP CDS..

    That was before President Obama’s verbal attacks on AIG, which at the time the government effectively owned, and before the government’s running of AIG reduced the value even further as time went on.

    Has anyone seen any news reports of the talent drain at AIG? There were well publicized reports on what happened at their airplane leasing company, but I’d suspect the same thing happened throughout the company.

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  87. David Losh

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 85

    Your discussion with Blurtman is demonstrating the need for financial reform. I’ve only pointed out discrepancies that should indicate the need.

    As far as contractual obligations that’s what lawsuits are made of, and we have plenty of those clogging our system.

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  88. Kary L. Krismer

    By David Losh @ 87:

    As far as contractual obligations that’s what lawsuits are made of, and we have plenty of those clogging our system.

    Yes we do, but the discussion is often biased toward the result of having the insurance company pay being a good thing. It’s as if insurance companies magically create money out of thin air. In fact, the money they pay comes from their customers, and the more they pay out the more they have to charge. The more things you cover, the higher the cost of insurance.

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  89. David Losh

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 88

    Or insurance companies are pools of money used for investment. Of course the consumer, once again, pays for any losses the company may have.

    I’m just pointing out a broken system that may well be insolvent. Our government keeps propping it up. Lawsuits are another strain on our tax resources, but insurance companies can afford that.

    This is a discussion about the Occupy Wall Street movement. You were saying these people, who ever they may be, are intermingled with the homeless. The homeless are a canary in the mine shaft. The more desperation there is, the more the movement will morph into militancy.

    It’s just a fact of life. The Occupy Wall Street movement is growing out of, or is a result of, a global economic collapse. The financial markets are out of control. The more focus that can be placed at the source of the problem the better.

    On the other hand, asking our government, or any government, to fix a financial market’s problem is wrong. The financial markets have enough cash to resolve the damages they have created, and they should be to ones to pay, and pay back the governments who bailed them out.

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  90. Kary L. Krismer

    By David Losh @ 89:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 88 – Or insurance companies are pools of money used for investment. Of course the consumer, once again, pays for any losses the company may have.

    But people forget that over and over and over. Legislators add more and more things to what health insurance has to cover, and then they complain that health insurance is rising faster than the rate of inflation. Duh!

    You could require homeowners’ insurance cover flooding damages for those living under sea level in New Orleans, but then the cost of insurance there would skyrocket, making it less affordable to live and causing property values to plummet.

    Sometimes the change is relatively minor, like requiring uninsured/underinsured auto coverage to include incidents where the other driver is committing a criminal act like trying to run into someone. Those incidents are so rare I don’t really have a problem with that one. But other changes are significant to the people who have to pay the insurance bills–consumers.

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  91. David Losh

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 90

    You by passed the $1.2 Quadrillion in the derivatives market http://www.dailyfinance.com/2010/06/09/risk-quadrillion-derivatives-market-gdp/
    and focussed instead on the insurance industry. We can live, and live well without insurance, but if we have insurance it would need to be government run. There needs to be some accountability.

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  92. Kary L. Krismer

    RE: David Losh @ 91 – Sorry, didn’t mean to avoid derivatives. They are beneficial and risky, in the way the stock market is beneficial and risky. I’m not sure I buy the argument that they allow too much risk to be taken, but that’s possible. I think there’s more risk though from having one or a handful of entities becoming too big, where their success or failure determines the success or failure of the entire economy, or the economies of virtually every significant country in the world.

    As to insurance, it is a heavily regulated industry. People just don’t understand that due to incomplete information. For example, despite what has probably been 10%+ increases in rates for 5+ years, Primera has less in reserves than it did five years ago. Rising premiums aren’t the problem, they are the symptom.

    And to throw in what I know is your favorite topic, it’s like California during the energy crisis, where consumers got mad at their utilities, even though they were losing billions and billions of dollars to keep the lights on. The consumers didn’t understand the difference between a utility and a producer of electricity. Fairly simple concepts really, but totally over their heads.

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  93. David Losh

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 92

    The energy producers are the target. The fact the government fails to regulate energy is another indication of a need for the Occupy Wall Street movement. More to the point would be that governments fail to adequately tax energy producers so they can fund further research into alternative energy resources. Had government taxed the heck out of oil, coal, and natural gas we would be in a much better place today, economically.

    Occupy Wall Street is demanding over sight of the financial markets. Health Care Reform is an excellent example, but small potatoes in the Quadrillion Dollar scheme of things.

    We have excessive new construction of state of the art health care facilities. We have doctors making obscene amounts of money, nurses who demand more collective bargaining while being over worked, and supported by Certified Nurses Assistance who help to cut costs. Put all of that aside and look at administrative costs over seen by executive directors, and boards who get paid billions of dollars. Throw in Insurance executives who make the other billions, and you don’t have profit, just excessive expenses.

    Occupy Wall Street first targeted executive pay. Today I think they can expand on that.

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  94. Kary L. Krismer

    By David Losh @ 93:

    The energy producers are the target. The fact the government fails to regulate energy is another indication of a need for the Occupy Wall Street movement.

    Energy regulation in California costs everyone billions of dollars, and your response to that is calling for more regulation? LOL.

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  95. David Losh

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 94

    The topic is the Occupy Wall Street movement. Executive pay in energy is very much on target.

    Your having a hard time with the topic itself, but keep bringing up examples of the need for reforms. I also followed up with the need to use taxation to bring large corporate entities in line with the greater public good.

    If you want to keep throwing out examples the next one would be agribusiness. There is a distinction between the family farm, and those attempting to create a monopoly.

    The people need more protection from today’s financial system. We need more protection from corporation that work against the public good in favor of creating wealth for a very few.

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  96. Kary L. Krismer

    RE: David Losh @ 95 – Executive pay is a nonsense issue. Why the F should they care what companies they don’t own pay anyone? As I mentioned, if they want to take on that issue they should do it as shareholders, using shareholder rights. They’ll soon discover though that their position is likely a minority position.

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  97. David Losh

    This is like beating my head against a wall twice a day.

    What tangible nonsense are they going to go after? Let’s be more direct, who are the 1%?

    They are people you will never see. You can go back to the 1970s, or 1980s, and rehash a bunch of conspiracy theories, or you can pick the person in front of you.

    Shareholders have no rights, they will never vote in a large enough block. You know that, so why bring it up?

    The discussion is the Occupy Wall Street movement. What about that movement don’t you understand, and why do you think the Tea Party has made any differences at all?

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  98. Kary L. Krismer

    By David Losh @ 97:

    The discussion is the Occupy Wall Street movement. What about that movement don’t you understand, and why do you think the Tea Party has made any differences at all?

    The Tea Party had solid things they were against (e.g. deficit spending), not just whining that they didn’t like their relative level of success in the world, and jealousy of others’ success.

    The Tea Party got candidates elected. Some of them were Democrats, because they managed to get too conservative of candidate through the primaries. It this point I don’t see OWS affecting a single race in the entire country–either positively or negatively to what they want to accomplish.

    OWS needs a viable platform, with specifics, and they need to actually accomplish something besides getting the attention of the press. It’s easy to get the attention of the press, but you don’t accomplish anything.

    http://www.lifewhile.com/news/139460/detail.html

    Finally, a reminder I don’t like either group. I’m just pointing out that one is somewhat effective and one totally ineffective.

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  99. David Losh

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 98

    First, you can agree that the Tea Party was a response to the Obama Health Care Reform. You said so earlier. That much is true. The deficit spending debate is hindering progress, it is whining, for whining sake.

    I suppose Ara Tripp, a performer, has something to do with this discussion. You are probably talking about publicity, which is different than protesting.

    I always love discussing the jealousy of other people’s success. It is the Republican response when people object to abuses of our financial system.

    Financial success is pretty easy. You just have to play. You need to know the rules, and follow them. Following the rules is a bizarre way to gage success. I just love it when some wall streeter, or Donald Trump starts in on the dog eat dog world they live in. Now there is some publicity, or publicist at work.

    The successful are the ones who get out of poverty to live well. It’s the other 1% who make it in the world, even if it is only having food on the table, and kids in college. That is success.

    The guy working two jobs, one at Safeway while he learns to do tax return for H & R Block, he’s the success story.

    Some Harvard guy who gets a million a year for doing nothing, but signing papers, or knowing which papers to sign, is a complete loser in the big scheme of things. All the trust funders in the world today? Have you met them? Come on, where’s the success in that? Calling your buddy at Goldman Sachs for today’s tip? Come on.

    How can you not see what a farce our financial system is?

    The Occupy Wall Street movement, are a highly organized global protest. You are only looking at year one in a decade long set of protests, that have all next summer to build on. We need them to be highly successful in this coming year.

    As long as we are throwing out random information: “Consumer borrowing rose by $19.3 billion in December after a $20.4 billion gain in November, the Federal Reserve said Tuesday. The two increases were the biggest monthly gains in a decade.”

    You’re a bankruptcy attorney, can you see the problem we have here. It needs to be fixed. The government won’t, or can’t fix it, so it will be up to the people.

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  100. Kary L. Krismer

    By David Losh @ 99:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 98 -First, you can agree that the Tea Party was a response to the Obama Health Care Reform. You said so earlier. That much is true. The deficit spending debate is hindering progress, it is whining, for whining sake.

    I always love discussing the jealousy of other people’s success. It is the Republican response when people object to abuses of our financial system.

    It’s probably both Obamacare and deficit spending. More the latter than the former IMHO, but really both.

    As to the jealousy comment, that’s focused on the fact that they don’t have any solutions! That’s my biggest problem with OWS. All they do is complain about the status quo without offering solutions. Their solutions should be aimed at helping people rise up. Thus for example, and very oddly, perhaps they should take a page from Stantorum’s (sp?) economic policy book, and develop a proposed tax policy that would encourage employment in this country, rather than just taxing all high income people more, which could hurt employment. Probably though all OWS people about Santorum is that he’s an extreme right winger, which is true. But he, of all people, has proposed something that would help lower income people more than anything OWS has done. (To be clear though, I’m not talking about his entire tax plan, just part of it).

    BTW, how many people do you think the top 1% is responsible for employing? How many people do Buffett entities employ? How many people do Gates’ entities employ?

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