Posted by: Timothy Ellis (The Tim)

Tim Ellis is the founder of Seattle Bubble. His background in engineering and computer / internet technology, a fondness of data-based analysis of problems, and an addiction to spreadsheets all influence his perspective on the Seattle-area real estate market.

168 responses to “Reader Question: Telltale Signs of Neighborhood Decline?”

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  1. Pegasus

    RE: wreckingbull @ 99 -New law says they get to only do it 8 times per individual. Married I am guessing that makes 16. That law cut their revenues to almost a third of prior years. In 2009 there were actually 241 people who did at least 51 loans at these scam operations. It shows you the kind of skunks that were running those scams and what they were really all about. About 44,000 people in Washington maxed out the eight turns on the loans in 2010. About one out of 12 defaulted(did not pay ON TIME) and about 1 out of ten requested an installment repayment. As to how many that actually never paid the money back and it went to a collector it’s obviously a lot less than the one out of 12 who did not pay on time but for some strange reason the industry and Washington State don’t feel it is necessary to provide that information because it might piss us off even more.

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  2. Kary L. Krismer

    RE: Pegasus @ 96 – They won’t loan at 36% because that would be a money losing proposition, especially given the more limited ability to sue people in the military, but even without that it would be a money loser.

    It’s not like it’s 36% profit! Probably even at 400% it’s not 36% profit.

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  3. Kary L. Krismer

    By Pegasus @ 97:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 95 – If you know when someone’s paycheck gets automatically deposited and you have an authorization to debit electronically that account through various authorizations the same day do you really have a big risk? Nope. . . . Keep making up stuff to justify the kleptocracy. It’s hilarious! .

    I commented on your post-dated check comment. That was one of three things just in this thread that you were wrong about. That is funny.

    I’m not the one making stuff up. So that’s a fourth thing you are wrong about–just in one thread.

    Wait. A fifth thing you are wrong about. A payroll deduction doesn’t mean no risk. Bankruptcy trumps the deduction.

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  4. Kary L. Krismer

    By Pegasus @ 100:

    RE: One Eyed Man @ 98 – Another defender of the Kleptocracy arrives to attempt make it all OK to hammer the poor and minorities when exorbitant rates are charged . . .

    Did it ever occur to you that as a lawyer, OEM also isn’t influenced by the nonsense arguments that influences you? Seriously, if you can’t respond to an argument, you attack with claims that suggest we’re cold hearted. In actual fact, your trying to help the poor is more likely to hurt them because you don’t understand the issues involved or their circumstances.

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  5. Kary L. Krismer

    By Pegasus @ 1:

    RE: wreckingbull @ 99 -New law says they get to only do it 8 times per individual. Married I am guessing that makes 16. That law cut their revenues to almost a third of prior years. In 2009 there were actually 241 people who did at least 51 loans at these scam operations. It shows you the kind of skunks that were running those scams and what they were really all about. About 44,000 people in Washington maxed out the eight turns on the loans in 2010. About one out of 12 defaulted(did not pay ON TIME) and about 1 out of ten requested an installment repayment. As to how many that actually never paid the money back and it went to a collector it’s obviously a lot less than the one out of 12 who did not pay on time but for some strange reason the industry and Washington State don’t feel it is necessary to provide that information because it might piss us off even more.

    Hey, I have an idea. There are people that abuse alcohol daily. We should make it illegal!

    Glad to see though that you’re aware of the limitations on how often they can borrow.

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  6. One Eyed Man

    RE: Pegasus @ 100

    In case you missed it, I never said that payday lenders shouldn’t be banned or that they should or shouldn’t be subject to stricter interest limitations. All I did was present the fact that the 36% APR military limit appeared to only yield a fee of about $7.50/ loan, that borrowers already had a right to extend their loans which would lower the APR to some extent, and that payday lenders charged about 4 times as much for a 2 week loan as my credit card company charged for an equivalent cash advance. Why does that simple factual information threaten you so much? It doesn’t mean your opinion is wrong nor does it even mean that I disagreed with or was attacking your opinion.

    But it does mean that your buttons are easy to push and that I think you often present a one sided version of the facts to support your socio-economic theory regarding “kleptocracy” and “banksters” and the corresponding need for additional unspecified regulation to protect the public. There are other opinions with facts and theories to support them, such as those expounded by market libertarians (who I respect even though I often disagree with) that regulation should be kept to a minimum because regulation is an impediment to economic activity and freedom, and markets are the most efficient method of implementing human economic choice.

    IMHO it also means that your claim to being a purveyor of “truth,” is only valid to the extent that you only express, tolerate and respect, facts and information that support your opinion. Your rhetoric, whether you intend it or not, makes it appear that any other facts and information are to be disrespected and denegrated as lies spread by agents of the evil “kleptocracy.” It’s one thing to disagree with those having opposing views, like market libertarians, its another to suppress and/or summarily dismiss facts which may support their opinions.

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  7. wreckingbull

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @105 – Nice straw man. Bravo!

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  8. David Losh

    RE: One Eyed Man @ 6

    Nice come back, and you did cover the main point. Credit Cards are a thousand times more dangerous than pay day loans, and nothing is ever said about them.

    Let me repeat, nothing is said about credit cards because they are the back bone of our financial markets. Consumer credit makes our world, or global economy go around.

    Should pay day loans be shut down, absolutely. There is no reason for pay day loans, or pawn shops, to be allowed to exist. Commerce should be done by straight business, cash, on cash. If some one wants to sell something, and some one wants to buy, fine, but lending is completely out of hand.

    Kary was making arguments a while back that business runs on credit, it doesn’t. Business runs on investment, with reasonable returns.

    I could go on, but what is the point. This is a totally ridiculous set of comments by a couple of attorneys who make a living out of paper products, most of which having to do with who can get the upper hand.

    We are rapidly coming to a point where all the paper promises won’t mean a thing.

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  9. Pegasus

    RE: One Eyed Man @ 106 – Ah you are the one spewing rhetoric here trying to desperately trying to convince everyone here that it is A-OK to charge 390% in interest charges to minorities and people serving our country in the military and get away with it. SHAME ON YOU! The military put a stop to the payday scum from abusing their own in 2007. Are you living in the past? You are now trying to unsuccessfully trying to twist your way out of defending the Kleptocracy that you so far have idolized constantly here on the Bubble. You created a FALSE scenario of borrower default in the name of the fabricated rare and obscure “toaster” defaulter to justify extremely high interest rates. Pssst… it’s not one sided to dare and call crooks by their real names instead of making constant and ridiculous excuses as to why crooks should be able to screw their clients. Speaking of pushing buttons you and Kary are so easily baited that it has become hilarious. Try sticking to the facts instead of twisting them . It has been proven that the payday loan sharks were primarily ripping off minorities and the military in this state. The state and the military moved to stop some of the abuse. Credit cards charge about FIVE percent of what the payday scammers charge in interest for about the same risk. Stop trying to obscure the facts with irrelevant bullchocolate. Your intent was to detract from negative info about payday loan scammers.

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  10. Pegasus

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 5 – Unfortunately you were not aware of any of the true facts surrounding the payday loan scammers but you defended them as a necessary evil didn’t you. Maybe, once again, you should do some homework before you and OEM open your yaps. You are making fools out of yourselves. Again.

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  11. Pegasus

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 3 – Your counter arguments have gone from bazaar to idiotic. Well done clown! Where is your defense of why payday loan scammers are a “necessary evil” like you profess when they have charged exorbitant beyond the Mafia interest rates, targeted minorities and the military and were given an almost free ride to financially rape and pillage the populace for over ten years before the legislature and the military finally tried to stop some of their predatory behavior? Please tell us why these type of organizations need to exist in Washington state when they can’t operate in the same manner in most states? We are waiting….clown.

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  12. Kary L. Krismer

    By wreckingbull @ 7:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @105 – Nice straw man. Bravo!

    Hardly. Pegasus’ argument is that some people are so stupid that they need his protection, and that he should decide what financial transactions they should enter into. He after all is all knowing and understands their situation better than them, and therefore should be able to make their decisions for them.

    Good thing he’s not a real estate broker. He could then argue that there are some people who are too stupid to use a limited service broker and that therefore limited service brokers should be illegal. After all, the harm that could be caused by a limited service broker far exceeds the $75 harm that we’re talking about on these payday loans, or even the $4,000 if one is done every week of the year.

    BTW, I would also suggest you learn something about Prohibition and the arguments that were made to put it into effect.

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  13. Kary L. Krismer

    RE: Pegasus @ 9 – Is there an argument there based on fact, or are you just having an emotional breakdown? Seriously, try to make an argument not based entirely on hyperbole. Your entire position on this topic has been nothing but hyperbole.

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  14. Pegasus

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 113 – Where can you demonstrate that payday loans are a “necessary evil” that Washingtonians need to endure versus what we used to have before they were made legal here in 1995? How have we benefited from payday 390% loans when other states have kicked these type of operations out? Please justify why they are allowed to discriminate primarily against minorities? Why were they allowed to do the same thing to military people before the military got a national law to stop the abuse? Please demonstrate how you know there is more risk in their operations then credit card operations thus justifying charging 20 times more in interest. Please tell us why the state recently was forced to change the law to prevent some of their ongoing abusive practices.Try putting up some real facts and history of allowing these operations to exist instead of trying to ridicule my facts and answers that you are unable to refute. Just the facts please, no baloney.

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  15. Kary L. Krismer

    RE: Pegasus @ 14 – Some of the legislation you’re describing is because there are a lot of politicians like you that erroneously think they know better what is best for people, and refuse to allow people to make their own choices. They want to control peoples’ lives. They are on a power trip. Just because legislation exists doesn’t mean it’s a good thing.

    Again I’ll go back to the Washington state legislator who thought that no homeowner should ever be allowed to take an offer from a scammer, and instead would be better off losing everything to foreclosure or be forced to file bankruptcy. That might be the choice she thinks she would make if she were in that situation, but in actual fact if she ever were in that situation she might very well like to have the option of getting $10,000 cash.

    Glad though that you like the nanny state. We’re heading more and more in that direction every day, so you should be happy in the future.

    BTW, I’ll point out that pawn brokers have been around a long time, and that many of the same issues are involved with them. This isn’t a new problem. Unlike you, however, I think they should be controlled rather than exterminated, because they do provide a useful service for some people.

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  16. Pegasus

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 115 – Please answer all of my questions in post 114, Kary. No more misdirection. Please respond and demonstrate with actual facts.

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  17. Kary L. Krismer

    RE: Pegasus @ 116 – Why should I answer a bunch of stupid questions? Here goes . . .

    Do you really think that these companies target minorities because of their race? Or could it be something else, like perhaps that economic wealth is not distributed equally by race, or that certain races have higher unemployment. It’s their economic status which makes them customers, not their race.

    Or another stupid question: Why is there more risk making an unsecured short term loan to someone who either doesn’t qualify for a credit card or has maxed out all of their credit cards. Seriously? You really think that’s a question?

    I think the power grabbing control freak politician answer covers all of your other questions.

    You really have very little understanding of the real world. It’s scary sometimes the things that you write. I mean really, your question about risk compared to credit cards, that would be like some billionaire asking why there are soup kitchens when people could instead just go to Canlis. You are so out of touch it’s amazing to me.

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  18. Pegasus

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 117 – Please answer all of my questions in post 114, Kary. No more misdirection. Please respond and demonstrate with actual FACTS not speculation on your part.

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  19. Kary L. Krismer

    RE: Pegasus @ 118 – Learn to read. I did.

    You’re odd. You make five misstatements of fact, and you claim I am wrong.

    You repeatedly ask for the same questions to be answered, and then you accuse me of misdirection.

    I think you’re confusing me for an image you’re seeing in a mirror.

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  20. Pegasus

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 119 – Please answer all of my questions in post 114, Kary. No more misdirection. Please respond and demonstrate with actual FACTS not speculation on your part.

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  21. David Losh

    RE: Pegasus @ 120

    Better you than me, but you will get nowhere with this.

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  22. Pegasus

    RE: David Losh @ 121 – I know. He can’t produce the facts and he is stuck so he tries to misdirect, ridicule and bloviate around the facts. It’s hilarious!

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  23. ARDELL

    Kary said: Again I’ll go back to the Washington state legislator who thought that no homeowner should ever be allowed to take an offer from a scammer, and instead would be better off losing everything to foreclosure or be forced to file bankruptcy. That might be the choice she thinks she would make if she were in that situation, but in actual fact if she ever were in that situation she might very well like to have the option of getting $10,000 cash.”

    Kary, I wouldn’t keeping using the rationale that a scammer grabbing $10,000 of someone else’s money to give to the owner is better for the owner. Why stop at $10,000? Why not $100,000? Using defense of scammers as support for your other arguments isn’t helping.

    I’d be better off with all the money in the bank vault down the street…can you find me a “scammer” to get that for me, and convince everyone it’s OK because I will be better off after they give it to me?

    Just who do you think the “scammer” is getting that $10,000 from to give to the owner, who is better off as a result?

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  24. unstoppable

    yikes,

    I’m going to interject and return to the original question about how to evaluate a neighborhoods prospects. I think anyone purchasing property needs to think about future population and transportation trends. Over the last thirty years we have seen suburban flight slow and in many places reverse. I don’t see traffic getting any better nor do i think enough people will telecommute to make a huge impact. I would bet on places where you don’t have, to drive everywhere. I also find train commuting much more pleasant than driving, so nice communities that allready have rail acces could be a good bet. Look at the trees, neighborhoods with mature street trees hold value. Also look at the housing stock, neighborhoods don’t often exceed the class of people they were built for originally. This article about an area in amsterdam is a good read and might provide insight.

    Good luck and my final piece of advice is never buy an old house with a finished basement.

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  25. Kary L. Krismer

    By Pegasus @ 22:

    RE: David Losh @ 121 – I know. He can’t produce the facts and he is stuck so he tries to misdirect, ridicule and bloviate around the facts. It’s hilarious!

    Give it up. Ridicule is your game.

    You have a very narrow view of the world and simply don’t understand what those in financial distress are going though. As I mentioned, and you failed to respond to, these short term loans might be the difference between being evicted and/or being fired. That’s what makes them a necessary evil.

    You, on the other hand, wouldn’t mind if people are evicted and fired, just as long as some corporation doesn’t gross 400% interest (based primarily on fees).

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  26. Pegasus

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 125 – Please answer all of my questions in post 114, Kary. No more misdirection. Please respond and demonstrate with actual FACTS not speculation on your part.

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  27. Kary L. Krismer

    By ARDELL @ 23:

    Kary, I wouldn’t keeping using the rationale that a scammer grabbing $10,000 of someone else’s money to give to the owner is better for the owner. Why stop at $10,000? Why not $100,000? Using defense of scammers as support for your other arguments isn’t helping.

    Huh? The scammer isn’t likely to offer $100,000. I think you’re still failing to understand the scenario. The distressed property law was designed to stop people from coming in and offering a relatively nominal amount for someone’s equity. I was using $10,000 assuming they had equity more in the $50,000-$100,000 range. The scammer is not going to offer $100,000.

    I’d be better off with all the money in the bank vault down the street…can you find me a “scammer” to get that for me, and convince everyone it’s OK because I will be better off after they give it to me?

    Okay, that’s just totally off the wall. Perhaps you need to explain what you think I’m talking about.

    Just who do you think the “scammer” is getting that $10,000 from to give to the owner, who is better off as a result?

    Huh? The scammer has the cash. Don’t you understand the type of people that invest in real estate?

    In the real world back when the distressed property law was passed there were a lot of people who had equity in their homes, but were delinquent on their loans. Many if not most of those people procrastinated dealing with the delinquency. Some of those ended up within 10 days of foreclosure, at which point in time the only way to avoid the foreclosure was to either pay off the loan in full (presumably by selling) or by filing bankruptcy. Bankruptcy, however, might do little or nothing to save the house depending on the person’s situation. That left a sale that will pay off the loan. And once you get within the 10 days, the only likely buyer is a scammer looking for a good deal. So the owner’s option then was to take $10,000 (or whatever they can negotiate) or lose everything to the foreclosure. The Washington State Legislature, in passing the distressed property law, took that choice away, and left people only with the option of losing everything. And like Pegasus doesn’t like corporations earning 400% even if it means eviction and the loss of a job, those legislators felt good that the scammer couldn’t earn a profit, even if that meant that the homeowner was left with nothing but a foreclosure on their record.

    It’s not that complicated. I’m not sure why you’re not able to follow.

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  28. Pegasus

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 25 – Please show us where the majority of payday loan borrowers that are getting charged huge interest rates by predatory lenders that 36 other states have banned are circumventing being evicted or fired. You can’t…you just made that up as an excuse to keep on financially raping minorities.

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  29. Kary L. Krismer

    By Pegasus @ 128:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 25 – Please show us where the majority of payday loan borrowers that are getting charged huge interest rates by predatory lenders that 36 other states have banned are circumventing being evicted or fired. You can’t…you just made that up as an excuse to keep on financially raping minorities.

    I’m sorry you don’t understand the situation of people in extreme financial distress. If you’re being evicted and can’t come up with cash by the date in the eviction notice, the eviction proceeds. At a minimum you’re likely to owe more in attorney fees, and that would probably greatly exceed the charge on the short term loan.

    If your car breaks down, and your employer has already complained about days missed, that very well might be the end of your job unless you can get it fixed. But mechanics don’t release cars without payment. So absent getting a short term loan, the paycheck may be gone.

    Or perhaps you’re suggesting something else, like them prostituting their bodies, selling drugs, etc. You probably think that’s okay, because it keeps a company from earning 400% interest.

    You’re really out of touch with the world some people live in. Do you really think the situations I’m describing don’t exist? I’m sorry if I can’t come up with names and dates to document situations which occur constantly.

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  30. Pegasus

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 27 – Well Kary if there is equity in the home beyond what it takes to cure the foreclosure which a “scammer” would need to do under your proposed scenario then there is probably enough equity that the homeowner would receive some or more after the foreclosure sale. Say the house has 50,000 equity after curing the foreclosure costs. The “scammer” bids $20,000 over the bank bid and wins. The homeowner gets $20,000 after the foreclosure costs.

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  31. Kary L. Krismer

    RE: Pegasus @ 130 – ROTFLMAO.

    You think a foreclosure sale brings fair market value? At least you’re consistent in that in many areas you demonstrate a clear failure to understand how the real world works.

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  32. Pegasus

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 29 -You can fabricate all kinds of scenarios that “might” happen that justify charging 400% at least in your own mind but you have no proof that the majority of borrowers are experiencing your fabrications. There is proof though that minorities are intentionally targeted by these vermin that you seem to think are in need of this “necessary evil” and they need to be overcharged and preyed upon.

    Please answer all of my questions in post 114, Kary. No more misdirection. Please respond and demonstrate with actual FACTS not speculation on your part.

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  33. Pegasus

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 31 – You proposed the scenario of a home with equity, I did not. Years ago when that was normally the case they would go for fair value because there was equity. Today that is not so much a valid scenario anymore. Stick with your own scenarios, Kary.

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  34. Blurtman

    RE: Pegasus @ 132 – No one is going to defend usury, but why do you keep bringing up “minorities?” Aren’t the users of this service – the poor, military familes and middle class – descriptive enough, or are you implying that even wealthy “minorities” with excellent credit somehow are swayed by the siren call of a payday loan?

    Quit being a racist, please.

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  35. Pegasus

    RE: Blurtman @ 134 – There is a study that was done a few years back right here in little old Washington State that concluded that blacks were definitely being specifically targeted by the payday loan scammers. It also said that it was very possible that other minorities were likely being targeted but it was more difficult to discern. It also concluded that although it had a smaller sample to work with that the military also was being targeted. Not hard to figure out when all of these operations had an abnormal amount of branches located next to the military bases. Duh. The military solved that problem by getting a national law passed in 2006 to protect its members from this abuse. So is it racist to point out that blacks are specifically targeted or is it racist to try and pretend there is no race involved, that it is just economics at work as Kary tried to promote here without any facts to back up his bullchocolate? Oh and Kary definitely is defending usury without any facts to back up why we need these vermin operating in our state. Of course it is legal usury because the state made in so in 1995.

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  36. Blurtman

    RE: Pegasus @ 135 – Haven’t read the studies, but if your business model, irrespective of how despicable it is, targets poor folks with bad credit, and “minorities” are disproportionately represented in this target market, are you targeting “minorities?” Do you think the payday loan folks stayed away from poor non-“minority” markets? There are numerically more poor non-“minorities” in the USA than “minorities.” (I would agree on a percentage basis that is not the case.) Do you think payday loan companies are not targeting these, too?

    Years ago activists claimed that a job qualification that required a college degree was designed to exclude “minorities,” and was therefore racist. It may have excluded “minorities” disporportinately, but if the job really required a college degree, was the company being racist, or just functioning in the environment that if finds itself, no matter what your view of that reaility might be?

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  37. Pegasus

    RE: Blurtman @ 136 – The study was done by comparing zip codes overlaid with residents based on race. It was pretty clear that blacks were specifically targeted. It also was able to dispel various myths that surround people with specific income levels. Based on what they found you would be unable to claim that since some blacks have low incomes that was the reason they placed all of the stores in their backyards when that was not true for other similar low income areas where the residents were predominately not black.

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  38. Blurtman

    RE: Pegasus @ 137 – What could possibly motivate that type of focus? If there is a market in ripping off poor people with bad credit, why stop at black neighborhoods? Something doesn’t smell right. But as I have not read the studies, I can only wonder.

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  39. Pegasus

    RE: Blurtman @ 138 – Hard to say for the real motivation and to who directed it. The study also thought other minorities were also targets but the evidence was not as strong or clear. These types of predatory loan-sharking operations were banned nationwide several generations ago. At the time of the banning many years ago blacks were being heavily targeted. Washington State has authorized interest rate charges of 390% APR as being allowed. There is a state out there that forced the industry to turn over information about payday loan operational risk and charge-offs and determined that the charge-offs were about 3 percent for the payday loan industry at the same time credit card companies were experiencing 2.7% charge-offs and charging about 15-20 percent in interest. Our state gave their permission to the payday loan industry to gouge Washington citizens in 1995. Many states now once again have banned this type of industry or limited the interest rate charges to 36 percent as the military did. Why are we still allowing the gouging of minorities and the poor?

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  40. Kary L. Krismer

    By Pegasus @ 32:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 29 -You can fabricate all kinds of scenarios that “might” happen that justify charging 400% at least in your own mind but you have no proof that the majority of borrowers are experiencing your fabrications. There is proof though that minorities are intentionally targeted by these vermin that you seem to think are in need of this “necessary evil” and they need to be overcharged and preyed upon.

    Please answer all of my questions in post 114, Kary. No more misdirection. Please respond and demonstrate with actual FACTS not speculation on your part.

    Why do I have to prove, or even care, if the majority of the borrowers are facing those issues? The point is, this type of loan can be a very valuable tool for some people. You can’t take away everything from everyone that some people might use. What you can to is try to regulate it, which is what I’ve been supporting. I don’t try to control everyone’s life with limited information, like you tend to do.

    As to your extremely stupid questions, I’ve already responded to them. Learn to read.

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  41. Kary L. Krismer

    By Pegasus @ 33:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 31 – You proposed the scenario of a home with equity, I did not. Years ago when that was normally the case they would go for fair value because there was equity. Today that is not so much a valid scenario anymore. Stick with your own scenarios, Kary.

    Now you’re just making stuff up. Remember, I was a bankruptcy attorney during the days when people had equity. I have some familiarity with what was recovered at foreclosure sales.

    While of course there have been some houses in the course of human history that have gone for FMV at foreclosure, that has always been a very rare occurrence. I even reported on one last year. Typically, however, 80% is about the best that is done.

    So I am sticking with my own scenario, but using facts which are likely in real life, not completely made up facts. You should try that sometime.

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  42. Kary L. Krismer

    By Blurtman @ 34:

    RE: Pegasus @ 132 – No one is going to defend usury, but why do you keep bringing up “minorities?” Aren’t the users of this service – the poor, military familes and middle class – descriptive enough, or are you implying that even wealthy “minorities” with excellent credit somehow are swayed by the siren call of a payday loan?

    Quit being a racist, please.

    That was part of what I was referring to when I mentioned that Pegasus should look in a mirror. He accused me of misdirection, but earlier claimed that these loans are racist.

    But I think you may be right. He thinks wealthy minorities use these services sometimes. He brought up credit card rates, and claims there is no greater risk to these loans, so he apparently thinks that people with other credit options use payday loan services.

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  43. Pegasus

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 140 – You have not answered ANY of my questions posed with post 114 with any FACTS, only BALONEY. Please answer all of my questions in post 114, Kary. No more misdirection. Please respond and demonstrate with actual FACTS not speculations or hot air on your part.

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  44. Kary L. Krismer

    By Pegasus @ 35:

    Oh and Kary definitely is defending usury without any facts to back up why we need these vermin operating in our state. Of course it is legal usury because the state made in so in 1995.

    Oxymoron much?

    Seriously, it’s either usury or it’s not. I suppose now you’re going to claim that virtually all credit cards are legal usury because they charge rates over 12%.

    Also, I would again point out that fees are not technically interest, and as OEM pointed out that’s how you get to your 400% figure.

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  45. Pegasus

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 42 – Now you are just lying. No facts just fiction….Kary’s way.

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  46. Pegasus

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 44 – That’s why I added the term “legal usury” The state made it legal but everyone but you knows it is improper and usurious and designed to fleece certain citizens in Washington. That’s why 36 other states have said ‘NO MAS” to these operations. That’s why the miltary got a NATIONAL ban against these payday loan scammers that restricted interest rates to 36% to protect its members from abuse.. A far cry from the 390% still charged to minorities and poor here in Washington isn’t it? It’s called gouging and it is proven to be targeting black people. What’s with that, Kary?

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  47. David Losh

    RE: Blurtman @ 138

    The study was cultural about the migration of money. Black neighborhoods have a financial drain to outside of the community. Black business owners have said that for years.

    Asian communities are much more likely to retain money circulating within asian owned community businesses.

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  48. Kary L. Krismer

    By Blurtman @ 38:

    RE: Pegasus @ 137 – What could possibly motivate that type of focus? If there is a market in ripping off poor people with bad credit, why stop at black neighborhoods? Something doesn’t smell right. But as I have not read the studies, I can only wonder.

    Studies are often designed with their outcome predetermined or incomplete analysis (perhaps to accomplish the former). I suspect Pegasus found one of those and fell for it hook line and sinker.

    This is a good example of the latter as it pertains to traffic tickets:

    http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1314&dat=20000720&id=YrszAAAAIBAJ&sjid=Q_IDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6758,6698686

    As the article notes, there could be many reasons for the disparity, including economic reasons.

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  49. Kary L. Krismer

    By Pegasus @ 43:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 140 – You have not answered ANY of my questions posed with post 114 with any FACTS, only BALONEY. Please answer all of my questions in post 114, Kary. No more misdirection. Please respond and demonstrate with actual FACTS not speculations or hot air on your part.

    This is getting tiring. What are you? Ten years old?

    I get it. You want to keep others from doing things that might be in their interest because corporations that you don’t like might profit from it. You want to make such decisions based on your incomplete and inaccurate view of the world. You really should become a religious figure or politician. You’d fit right in because you have the aptitude for wanting to make stupid decisions that control other peoples’ lives.

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  50. Kary L. Krismer

    By Kary L. Krismer @ 42:

    By Blurtman @ 34:
    RE: Pegasus @ 132 – No one is going to defend usury, but why do you keep bringing up “minorities?” Aren’t the users of this service – the poor, military familes and middle class – descriptive enough, or are you implying that even wealthy “minorities” with excellent credit somehow are swayed by the siren call of a payday loan?

    Quit being a racist, please.

    That was part of what I was referring to when I mentioned that Pegasus should look in a mirror. He accused me of misdirection, but earlier claimed that these loans are racist.

    But I think you may be right. He thinks wealthy minorities use these services sometimes. He brought up credit card rates, and claims there is no greater risk to these loans, so he apparently thinks that people with other credit options use payday loan services.

    By Pegasus @ 45:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 42 – Now you are just lying. No facts just fiction….Kary’s way.

    How is that in any way a lie? You said those things above. You brought up the race topic. You said compared the risk of a payday loan to that of a credit card, despite the fact that the people getting payday loans likely either don’t have credit cards or have maxed them out.

    Talk about misdirection. When the facts don’t suit you, claim the other person is lying.

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  51. Pegasus

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 148 – Misdirection, Bozo. Stick with the facts. Traffic tickets have nothing to do with gouging black people. Try answering my questions posed in post 114 with facts and not misdirection and fiction….we are waiting Kary. Can’t provide any facts to support your assertion that we need these operations to gouge people, specifically black people?

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  52. David Losh

    It’s very simple that businesses don’t have to make excessive profits to be profitable. Risk is compounded if you attempt to cheat people. Pay day loans are like that. The risk is that the check won’t be good. It’s a matter of odds, like gambling.

    Should gambling be illegal? It would happen anyway, that’s why it’s legal, the same with liquor.

    The difference is that most people won’t go to court over debt issues, and will simply collect, which is allowed. In Washington State I’m allowed to collect my own debts. That just leads to other crime.

    The government prefers this type of theft by Pay Day Loan companies because it fills a niche that will use legal means to cover the risk. The government can also collect taxes associated with this risk, loan sharking it is a shadow economy.

    This industry should be highly regulated.

    That doesn’t change this exchange of comments which was fruitless. Once again Kary has insulted the topic into the ground without facts, or a point that is based in today’s circumstances. It’s another train wreck that we look at as we drive by.

    Really, what was the point other than an attempt to belittle some one?

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  53. Pegasus

    Payday loans….here is how it was for people in the military until the military got a national law in place to protect it’s members…..

    “Liz Kosse, director of the Naval-Marine Corps Relief Society in Bremerton, sees sailors who are in so deep that they can’t get out on their own.
    People like the naval petty officer who racked up $5,433 in fees on one $500 loan before turning to the society and her commander for help.”

    Read more: http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/Payday-loan-outlets-tempt-soldiers-and-sailors-1174182.php#ixzz1pZjvqdbE

    Here is why they passed the law protecting the military from predators:

    http://www.responsiblelending.org/payday-lending/policy-legislation/congress/military-and-payday.html

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  54. Kary L. Krismer

    By Pegasus @ 151:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 148 – Misdirection, Bozo. Stick with the facts. Traffic tickets have nothing to do with gouging black people. Try answering my questions posed in post 114 with facts and not misdirection and fiction..

    If I link to facts you claim they are irrelevant because you cannot understand the simple English I used which explained why I posted the link. I pointed out how studies can be flawed.

    But talk about not posting facts! You’re talking repeatedly about this study, but have not posted a link or described it in a way which would allow it to be found. You’re the one just making things up. Again, you need to look in the mirror when you make claims about others. You’re only describing yourself.

    And again, what are you 10 years old? I already answered the questions in post 114. Read posts 115 and 117. That covered all of them. If you understood English you would know that.

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  55. Kary L. Krismer

    By David Losh @ 52:

    The government prefers this type of theft by Pay Day Loan companies because it fills a niche that will use legal means to cover the risk. The government can also collect taxes associated with this risk, loan sharking it is a shadow economy.

    You actually bring up a good point. Washington state probably prefers this because it’s better than the “mafia” alternative which Pegasus supports. Contrary to his claim, loan sharks are not that nice of people, and they don’t tend to follow rules.

    During prohibition, people died from illegal alcohol not meant for human consumption. When abortions were illegal, women died from illegal abortions. Those are the types of results you get when you think like Pegasus and try to control other peoples’ lives while not understanding how the real world works.

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  56. Pegasus

    Here is why they passed the law protecting the military from predators:

    http://www.responsiblelending.org/payday-lending/policy-legislation/congress/military-and-payday.html

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 0

  57. David Losh

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 154

    These are points you should have made earlier. You didn’t make any points.

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 0

  58. Pegasus

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 54 – Haha. Now I “support the Mafia” according to Mr. No Facts Only Fiction Man? Give us some real facts Kary. Tell us all about the profit margins for the payday loan scammers. Cat got your tongue? Well just make something up as usual. Tell us why we did not need these scammers who were outlawed for generations and suddenly we “needed” them to save us?

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 0

  59. Pegasus

    Payday loans….here is how it was for people in the military until the military got a national law in place to protect it’s members…..

    “Liz Kosse, director of the Naval-Marine Corps Relief Society in Bremerton, sees sailors who are in so deep that they can’t get out on their own.
    People like the naval petty officer who racked up $5,433 in fees on one $500 loan before turning to the society and her commander for help.”

    http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/Payday-loan-outlets-tempt-soldiers-and-sailors-1174182.php#ixzz1pZjvqdbE

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 0

  60. Kary L. Krismer

    By David Losh @ 55:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 154

    These are points you should have made earlier. You didn’t make any points.

    Out of curiosity, how do you consider repeatedly pointing out someone could be evicted or lose their job to not be making any points?

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  61. Kary L. Krismer

    By Pegasus @ 56:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 54 – Haha. Now I “support the Mafia” according to Mr. No Facts Only Fiction Man?

    It’s pretty sad when you can’t even comprehend what you write.

    By Pegasus @ 84:

    RE: – Absolutely. They are charging more than the Mafia and at least the Mafia had a heart when it came to collections.

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  62. Pegasus

    Payday lenders survive by keeping customers caught in long-term debt, and before 2007, members of the American military service were not off-limits. In fact, payday loan stores clustered around bases, promising quick cash to military families in need, who, when they borrowed from a payday lender more often than not ended up caught in debt at triple-digit interest.

    Congress acted to protect military families from this predation by including a measure in the Defense Authorization Act of 2006 that prohibits payday and title lenders from charging higher than 36 percent APR. The lawmakers were responding to a 92-page report from the Department of Defense documenting widespread and ongoing financial difficulties among military families due to predatory practices like payday and car title lending.

    http://www.responsiblelending.org/payday-lending/policy-legislation/congress/military-and-payday.html

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  63. Ray pepper

    Tim, not that your even monitoring this but what does all this crap on pay day loans have to do with topic on hand. Again, why was this not sent to your vast waste land of off topic comments. Nothing wrong with Peg or Kary because I love watching popcorn style slam debates. What IS wrong is your monitoring and choosing at your whim what is off and what is on topic.

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  64. Kary L. Krismer

    RE: Ray pepper @ 163 – If the neighborhood has a lot of payday loan places nearby, it’s heading downhill. ;-)

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 0

  65. Pegasus

    Dear Chairman Bernanke, Director Cordray, Acting Chairman Gruenberg, and Acting Comptroller Walsh:

    We write to urge the federal regulators of our nation’s banks to take immediate action to stop banks from making unaffordable, high-cost payday loans.

    Wells Fargo, US Bank, Fifth Third, Regions, and Guaranty Bank’s deposit “advance” loans are structured just like loans from payday loan stores – carrying a high-cost combined with a short-term balloon repayment. Research has long shown that these loans trap borrowers in a cycle of expensive long-term debt, causing serious financial harm to borrowers, including increased likelihood of bankruptcy, paying credit card debts and other bills late, delayed medical care, and loss of basic banking privileges because of repeated overdrafts.
    >
    >
    >

    Sincerely,

    National Organizations

    AFL-CIO
    Americans for Financial Reform
    Center for Responsible Lending
    Church of England Ethical Investment Advisory Group
    Consumer Action
    Consumer Federation of America
    Consumers Union
    Demos
    First Nations Development Institute
    Green America
    Jesuit Conference
    Jewish Reconstructionist Federation
    Leadership Conference for Civil and Human Rights
    Main Street Alliance
    Missonary Oblates, US Province
    NAACP
    National Advocacy Center of the Sisters of the Good Shepherd
    National Association of Consumer Advocates
    National Community Reinvestment Coalition
    National Consumer Law Center (on behalf of its low income clients)
    National Fair Housing Alliance
    National People’s Action
    NETWORK, A National Catholic Social Justice Lobby
    Mercy Investment Services
    Pax World Funds
    PICO National Network
    Progressive Asset Management
    Responsible Endowments Coalition
    Sisters of Charity of the Blessed Virgin Mary
    Sojourners
    The Greenlining Institute
    Trillium Asset Management
    United Church of Christ Justice and Witness Ministries
    US PIRG

    State and Community Organizations

    AccountAbility Minnesota
    Action for Children North Carolina
    Action North Carolina
    Adrian Dominican Sisters (Seattle, WA)
    Alabama Appleseed
    Alliance to Develop Power (Springfield, MA)
    American Friends Service Committee – South East New England Office
    Aquinas Associates (Dallas, TX)
    Arizona Advocacy Network
    Arizona Community Action Association
    Arizonans for Responsible Lending Coalition
    Arkansans Against Abusive Payday Lending
    Arkansas Advocates for Children and Families
    Arkansas Community Organizations
    Baltimore CASH Campaign (Baltimore, MD)
    Bell Policy Center (CO)
    Better Choices for a Better Louisiana Coalition
    California Church IMPACT
    California Reinvestment Coalition
    Casa Latina (Seattle, WA)
    Center for Economic Integrity (Tuscon, AZ)
    Central Alabama Fair Housing Center (Montgomery, AL)
    Chhaya CDC (Jackson Heights, NY)
    Children’s Alliance (WA)
    Christopher Reynolds Foundation (New York, NY)
    Citizen Action Illinois
    CitySquare (Dallas, TX)
    Cleveland Housing Network (Cleveland, OH)
    Coalition of Religious Communities (Salt Lake City, UT)
    Coalition on Homelessness & Housing in Ohio
    Coastal Enterprises Institute (ME)
    Coloradans for Payday Lending Reform
    Colorado Progressive Coalition
    Communities Creating Opportunity (Kansas City, MO)
    Communities United for Action (Cincinnati, OH)
    Community Financial Resources (CA)
    Community Union (Van Nuys, CA)
    Connecticut Association for Human Services
    Consumer Credit Counseling Service of Forsyth County (Winston-Salem, NC)
    Consumer Credit Counseling Service of Greater Greensboro (Greensboro, NC)
    Courage Campaign (CA)
    Credit Counseling Agencies of North Carolina Association
    Democratic Processes Center, Inc (Tuscon, AZ)
    District Council 37 (New York), AFSCME (New York, NY)
    Dominican Sisters of Hope (Ossining, NY)
    Dominican Sisters of Sparkill (Sparkill, NY)
    East LA Community Corporation (Los Angeles, CA)
    Economic Fairness Oregon
    EMERGE Community Development (Minneapolis, MN)
    Empire Justice Center (NY)
    Fair Housing Center (Toledo, OH)
    Fair Housing Council of Northern New Jersey
    Faith Action Network (WA)
    Fifth Avenue Committee (New York, NY)
    Financial Protection Law Center (NC)
    Florida Consumer Action Network
    Florida Minority Community Reinvestment Coalition
    Foreclosure Relief Law Project (MN)
    Friends Fiduciary (Philadelphia, PA)
    Fuse Washington
    Genesee Co-op Federal Credit Union (Rochester, NY)
    Glenmary Home Missioners (Fairfield, OH)
    GRO-Grassroots Organizing (MO)
    Habitat for Humanity of Mahoning County (Sturthers, OH)
    Heartland Alliance for Human Needs (IL)
    Housing Action Coalition (RI)
    Housing Action Illinois
    Housing Research & Advocacy Center (Cleveland, OH)
    IIRON (IL and IN)
    Illinois People’s Action
    Insight Center for Community Economic Development (Oakland, CA)
    Interfaith Housing Center of the Northern Suburbs (Winnetka, IL)
    Iowa Citizens for Community Improvement
    ISAIAH (Minneapolis, MN)
    Jesuit Social Research Institute, Loyola University (New Orleans, LA)
    Jewish Community Action (MN)
    LeadingAge Ohio
    Legal Assistance Resource Center of Connecticut
    Legal Services of Southern Piedmont (Charlotte, NC)
    Lorain County Urban League (Elyria, OH)
    Louisiana Budget Project
    Lutheran Public Policy Office of Washington
    Lutheran Social Service of Minnesota
    Maine Center for Economic Policy
    Maine Equal Justice Partners
    Maine People’s Alliance
    Maine Women’s Lobby
    Maine’s Majority
    Mainstream Oklahoma Baptists
    Marine Corps Installations East
    Maryland Budget and Tax Policy Institute
    Maryland CASH Campaign
    Maryland Consumer Rights Coalition
    MDC (Durham, NC)
    Memphis Responsible Lending Coalition (Memphis, TN)
    Metanoia Centers for Innovation (Champaign, IL)
    MFY Legal Services (New York, NY)
    Miami Valley Fair Housing Center (Dayton, OH)
    Mid-Minnesota Legal Assistance
    Midwest Coalition for Responsible Investment (St. Louis, MO)
    Minnesota Community Action Partnership
    Minnesotans for a Fair Economy
    Mission Asset Fund (San Francisco, CA)
    Missionary Servants of the Most Holy Trinity (Silver Spring, MD)
    Montana Community Foundation
    National Association of Social Workers-North Carolina Chapter
    Neighborhood Economic Development Advocacy Project (NEDAP) (New York, NY)
    Neighbors Helping Neighbors (New York, NY)
    Neighborworks Blackstone River Valley (RI)
    Neighborworks Rochester (Rochester, NY)
    New Baptist Covenant Midwest Region
    New Hampshire Legal Assistance
    North Carolina Community Development Initiative
    North Carolina Council of Churches
    North Carolina Housing Coalition
    North Carolina Institute for Minority Economic Development
    North Carolina Justice Center
    North Carolina State AFL-CIO
    Northeast Ohio Legal Services
    Oakland Allen Temple Church (Oakland, CA)
    Office of Peace and Justice, Sinsinawa Dominican Sisters (Sinsinawa, WI)
    Ohio Conference of Seventh-Day Adventists
    Ohio Conference Seventh-Day Adventist Schools
    Ohio Poverty Law Center
    Oklahoma Policy Institute
    OnTrack Financial Education & Counseling (Asheville, NC)
    Pisgah Legal Services (NC)
    Policy Matters Ohio
    Pratt Area Community Council (Brooklyn, NY)
    Progress Florida
    Progress Mass (MA)
    Progress Missouri
    Progress Ohio
    Progress Texas
    ProgressNow Colorado
    ProgressNow Nevada
    ProgressNow New Mexico
    Reinvestment Partners (NC)
    Rensselaer County Housing Resources (Troy, NY)
    Rural Dynamics (MT)
    SEIU Local 26 (Minneapolis, MN)
    Sisters of Charity of Saint Elizabeth (Convent Station, NJ)
    Sisters of St. Francis of Assisi (St. Francis, WI)
    Sisters of St. Francis of Philadelphia (Philadelphia, PA)
    Sisters of St. Francis of Tiffin, Ohio
    Sisters of St. Joseph of Springfield, Massachusetts
    South Carolina Appleseed Legal Justice Center
    Southsiders Organized for Unity and Liberation (Chicago, IL)
    St. Michael’s Parish (Providence, RI)
    Statewide Poverty Action Network (WA)
    Syracuse United Neighbors (Syracuse, NY)
    Take Action Minnesota
    Teamsters Local 237 (New York, NY)
    The Economic Progress Institute (RI)
    The Financial Clinic (New York, NY)
    The Support Center (NC)
    Toledo First Church of Seventh Day Adventists (Toledo, OH)
    Triangle Congregations Associations and Neighborhoods (Durham, NC)
    Tri-State Coalition for Responsible Investment (Montclair, NJ)
    United Federal Credit Union (NY)
    United Way of Erie County (Erie, OH)
    Ursuline Sisters of Tildonk, U.S. Province (NY)
    Virginia Citizen’s Consumer Council
    Virginia Poverty Law Center
    Virginians Against Payday Lending
    VOCAL – NY (Brooklyn, NY)
    Washington State Labor Council, AFL-CIO
    Western New York Law Center
    Woodstock Institute (Chicago, IL)
    Xaverian Brothers (Baltimore, MD)

    Individual Advocates (organization provided for identification purposes)

    Alan Reberg, Raleigh Mennonite Church (Raleigh, NC)
    Amy Greer (RI)
    Anders Blewett, State Senator (MT)
    Anne Hansen Gathje, Hansen Law LLC (St. Paul, MN)
    Benjamin J. Thorpe, Hispanic College Fund (Washington, DC)
    Bill Lerman, Jewish Community Action (Minneapolis, MN)
    Billie Dougherty, AARP Volunteer Advocacy Team (AR)
    Carol Bromer, Jewish Community Action (Minneapolis, MN)
    Caroline Peattie, Fair Housing of Marin (Marin, CA)
    Connie Russell, HOPE NC (Raleigh, NC)
    Daniel P. Rhodes, Emmaus Way Church (Durham, NC)
    Debbie McCune Davis, State Senator (AZ)
    Donna Goodell, New Horizons Community Learning Center (Newark, OH)
    Doug Seay Committee on Church and Society, North Alabama Conference, United Methodist Church
    Douglas Micko, The Schaefer Law Firm LLC (Minneapolis, MN)
    E. Michelle Drake, Attorney at Law (Minneapolis, MN)
    Fr. Gerry Creedon, Holy Family Catholic Church (Dale City, VA)
    Idalia Fernandez, Hispanic College Fund (Washington, DC)
    Jean Stultz, Bragg Mutual Federal Credit Union (NC)
    Jonathan Motl, Morrison, Motl and Sherwood (Helena, MT)
    Judith Wylie-Rosset, UU Congregation at Shelter Rock (Manhasset, NY)
    Kai Richter, Attorney At Law (Minneapolis, MN)
    Margaret Weber, Congregation of St. Basil
    Marisa Katz, PLLP (Minneapolis, MN)
    Matthew Dunbar, Habitat for Humanity, (New York, NY)
    Michael Warren, Washington State Alliance for Retired Persons
    Nancy Kenyon, Fair Housing Marin (Marin, CA)
    Nicholas DiNardo (Cincinnati, OH)
    Peter F. Barry, Consumer Rights Lawyer (Minneapolis, MN)
    Louis Ruis, State Representative (KS)
    Rev. Dr. Sharon Stanley, Fresno Interdenominational Refugee Ministries (Fresno, CA)
    Rev. Londia Granger Wright, St. Luke’s United Methodist Church (Kansas City, MO)
    Rev. Stephen Copley, Arkansas Interfaith Alliance
    Richard A. Fisher (Cleveland, TN)
    Richard Fuller, The Schaefer Law Firm LLC (Minneapolis, MN)
    Rita L. Haynes, President and CEO of Faith Community United Credit Union, Retired (OH)
    Robert Cloar, Attorney at Law (Fort Smith, AR)
    Sam Glover, The Glover Law Firm, LLC (Minneapolis, MN)
    Sonia Kowal, Zevin Asset Management LLC (Boston, MA)
    Stephanie Fairchild, Ohio Valley ESC (Marietta, OH)
    Theresa Watson, Community Development, City of Jacksonville (Jacksonville, AK)
    Tim Iglesias, Professor of Law, University of San Francisco School of Law

    http://www.responsiblelending.org/payday-lending/policy-legislation/regulators/letter-to-bank-regulators-re-bank-payday-lending.html

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  66. Kary L. Krismer

    RE: Pegasus @ 165 – No need to waste so much space. I’ll stipulate that there are a lot of stupid people running organizations in this country.

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 0

  67. Blurtman

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 166 – It is a requirement.

    Rate this comment: Thumb up 0

  68. Blurtman

    RE: Pegasus @ 65 – What!!!! Consumers are the raw material of industry, to be depleted and discarded to fuel progress. The future, Mr. Gittes.

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