Weekend Open Thread (2010-04-16)

Here is your open thread for the weekend beginning Friday April 16th, 2010. You may post random links and off-topic discussions here. Also, if you have an idea or a topic you’d like to see covered in an article, please make it known.

Be sure to also check out the forums, and get your word in the user-driven discussions there!

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About The Tim

Tim Ellis is the founder of Seattle Bubble. His background in engineering and computer / internet technology, a fondness of data-based analysis of problems, and an addiction to spreadsheets all influence his perspective on the Seattle-area real estate market. Tim also hosts the weekly improv comedy sci-fi podcast Dispatches from the Multiverse.

56 comments:

  1. 1
    David Losh says:

    It must be about time to shop for a house. Two houses in a 4 block area of Maple Leaf Seattle went up for sale below $400K. One is below $350K. On my street we now have 4 houses for sale, and up the street there are 6 for sale signs in front of a small condo building.

    Two more weeks until the tax credit expires, 10 more weeks until all those panic purchases need to close. Interest rates are ticking up, and this summer promises we will see more unemployment with the end of the Census.

    In Real Estate bad news, is good news for buyers. Are you ready?

  2. 2

    This story involving GS and fraud charges should be interesting to follow, although it sounds like it might be possible the only entity at fault was the third party entity (depending on what GS knew):

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36597290/ns/business-us_business/

    If GS did know what was going on, they’ll be in a world of hurt.

  3. 3
    deejayoh says:

    What the heck is going on in Vancouver BC? Has anyone been watching the stories of the continuing bubble there?

    The article has a link to this site, which is a pretty funny depiction of what is happening there:
    http://www.crackshackormansion.com/ – the game about Vancouver housing

  4. 4
    pfft says:

    We often forget that the rest of the world can pull the US out of recession too. the falling dollar, which is greatly freted by people like peter schiff, is actually a good thing. it will bring jobs.

    U.S. Industrial Production Rose in March
    By JAVIER C. HERNANDEZ
    Published: April 15, 2010

    “Robust demand in the United States and abroad for products like tractors and airplanes has energized factory production. In addition, businesses are rebuilding depleted inventories, helping strengthen output, and exports are increasing, particularly to Asia.”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/16/business/economy/16econ.html?scp=1&sq=an%20energetic%20rebound&st=Search

    when you analyze the US economy, you must account for the rest of the world too.

  5. 5
    Daniel says:

    By Kary L. Krismer @ 2:

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36597290/ns/business-us_business/

    If GS did know what was going on, they’ll be in a world of hurt.

    In theory maybe but the last few times GS faced similar accusations (to my knowledge multiple times) they always settled and presumably for pennies on the dollar. Granted this time the sum is large again, but even if they get punished: The bonuses to the con-artists are paid and a lot of them left the place for other influential positions as we know.

    To avoid this kind of thing the system needs to change.

  6. 6
    Daniel says:

    RE: deejayoh @ 3 – I live in Vancouver and housing prices are terrible. I agree it is just a matter of time until this will blow up. To my knowledge a lot more people make larger down payments though (anyone have statistics?) so I am not sure how strongly this will affect banks.

    In the rental market things are similar: for the rent of a 2 bedroom apartment you can rent a 3-4 bedroom house in the Lynnwood area, where my wife lived before.

  7. 7
    Tim says:

    I recently finished reading ‘The Greatest Trade Ever’ which is a book about how Paulson went about shorting mortgages. It is at the heart of today’s action against GS. I highly recommend it.

  8. 8
    Tim says:

    I live in Bellingham and frequently go to Vancouver and one thing that is striking up there is the abundance of nice cars and the general appearance that Vancouver is a wealthy city. I can’t think of one major corporation that is headquartered there. You definitely have to be suspicious of what is going on up there.

  9. 9
    pfft says:

    “I can’t think of one major corporation that is headquartered there. You definitely have to be suspicious of what is going on up there.”

    must be a good thing!

    EDIT: wikipedia is a good thing

    Economy of Vancouver
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Vancouver

  10. 10

    We Can Pretend the Rest of the World Doesn’t Depend On America’s Robust Economy

    But most of know, it’s just horrifying denial, article in part:

    “…When the U.S. economy catches cold, the rest of the world gets pneumonia. That’s because much of the wealth of the rest of the world depends on selling stuff to us, and/or on investing in our economy….”

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/oct/29/enough-pain-to-go-around/

    I’d add we’ve ran out of credit debt to buy their stuff and even our safe short-term treasury bonds are about 0% now. Not a very attractive offerring for foreign investment anymore, to give us more debt to buy their stuff.

  11. 11

    RE: softwarengineer @ 10

    Once the US/China/Europe/Japan Bailouts Come to an End this Year

    We’ll see how well the rest of the world can survive on America’s current spending/starvation diet.

  12. 12
    pfft says:

    By softwarengineer @ 10:

    We Can Pretend the Rest of the World Doesn’t Depend On America’s Robust Economy

    But most of know, it’s just horrifying denial, article in part:

    “…When the U.S. economy catches cold, the rest of the world gets pneumonia. That’s because much of the wealth of the rest of the world depends on selling stuff to us, and/or on investing in our economy….”

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/oct/29/enough-pain-to-go-around/

    I’d add we’ve ran out of credit debt to buy their stuff and even our safe short-term treasury bonds are about 0% now. Not a very attractive offerring for foreign investment anymore, to give us more debt to buy their stuff.

    so why have the emerging markets come roaring back? why are we in a global recovery? if there is not anymore credit and nobody is buying anything why do we have a trade deficit?

    americans have picked up the savings baton.

  13. 13
    pfft says:

    By softwarengineer @ 11:

    RE: softwarengineer @ 10

    Once the US/China/Europe/Japan Bailouts Come to an End this Year

    We’ll see how well the rest of the world can survive on America’s current spending/starvation diet.

    you guys are stuck in march of 2009. like shiller said, at this point the recession is mental. people will soon get sick of not spending. businesses will realize the recovery is real and start hiring.

    the bailout were a bridge to a time when the economy could stand on it’s own feat. every month draws us closer to that time. just like the bulls were still bullish right before the collapse, the bears are still bearish right at the point of recovery.

  14. 14
    pfft says:

    By Daniel @ 6:

    RE: deejayoh @ 3 – I live in Vancouver and housing prices are terrible. I agree it is just a matter of time until this will blow up. To my knowledge a lot more people make larger down payments though (anyone have statistics?) so I am not sure how strongly this will affect banks.

    In the rental market things are similar: for the rent of a 2 bedroom apartment you can rent a 3-4 bedroom house in the Lynnwood area, where my wife lived before.

    I was under the impression that canada’s housing market had tanked. I guess not. prices will probably keep climbing until the commodity bubble burst or whenever the next bust hits. the US housing market barely budged during the tech wreck and 2001 recession.

  15. 15
    Pegasus says:

    “City Bank, Lynnwood, Washington, was closed today by the Washington Department of Financial Institutions, which appointed the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC) as receiver. To protect the depositors, the FDIC entered into a purchase and assumption agreement with Whidbey Island Bank, Coupeville, Washington, to assume all of the deposits of City Bank.”

    Proof every week that the FDIC and other regulators have not been doing their job.

    “As of December 31, 2009, City Bank had approximately $1.13 billion in total assets and $1.02 billion in total deposits. Whidbey Island Bank paid the FDIC a premium of 1.0 percent to assume all of the deposits of City Bank. In addition to assuming all of the deposits, Whidbey Island Bank agreed to purchase approximately $704.1 million of the failed bank’s assets.”

    “The FDIC estimates that the cost to the Deposit Insurance Fund (DIF) will be $323.4 million. Whidbey Island Bank’s acquisition of all the deposits was the “least costly” resolution for the FDIC’s DIF compared to all alternatives. City Bank is the 50th FDIC-insured institution to fail in the nation this year, and the fifth in Washington. The last FDIC-insured institution closed in the state was Rainier Pacific Bank, Tacoma, February 26, 2010.”

    106 days later and they lose one third of their assets? NOT! Proof the FDIC looks the other way while banks mark assets at fake prices. Don’t worry. Nothing is wrong with our banking system. We are recovering. Really? With fake books? This ends badly.

    http://www.fdic.gov/news/news/press/2010/pr10082.html

  16. 16
    softwarengineer says:

    RE: pfft @ 13

    Wrong Pfft

    You’re stuck in comparing flat or small bailout gains from 2009, that will be butcher axed this year [without Stimulus II]. I compare now to 2008, when theings were more out of the repression [and it still horifying]. Until we return to a 2006 economy we’re all like Shakespeare said “idiots ranting on the stage”…..

  17. 17
    S. Marty Pantz says:

    By Daniel @ 5:

    By Kary L. Krismer @ 2:

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36597290/ns/business-us_business/

    If GS did know what was going on, they’ll be in a world of hurt.

    In theory maybe but the last few times GS faced similar accusations (to my knowledge multiple times) they always settled and presumably for pennies on the dollar. Granted this time the sum is large again, but even if they get punished: The bonuses to the con-artists are paid and a lot of them left the place for other influential positions as we know.

    To avoid this kind of thing the system needs to change.

    Reminds me of all those stories about music industry managers who rip-off their clients. They never get charged with criminal offenses like theft, but get sued civilly. They know no one wants to go the distance in these cases, and thus usually settle for pennies on the dollar. There is no incentive to change this M.O., as these crooks walk away with lots of money eventually. (Read about David Geffen, Allen Klein, etc.)

  18. 18
    Hugh Dominic says:

    There’s a great podcast of This American Life this week that outlines how hedge managers from Magnetar did exactly what Government Sachs is accused of. Very much worth a listen.

  19. 19
    One Eyed Man says:

    RE: softwarengineer @ 16

    “Until we return to a 2006 economy ”

    SWE, are you saying that recovery means returning to a 2006 economy? That’s like saying that a meth freak at the bottom is in recovery when he gets his next high. 2006 wasn’t the norm, it was, as all the bears are fond of saying, a sugar high of cheap money stimulus and deficit spending with bogus construction jobs and false financial profits.

    To editorialize, that’s one of the reasons capitalist economies need some regulation and management to dampen the extremes of the cycles. Markets aren’t always efficient and they don’t always act rationally. They sometimes run on emotion like greed or fear. They are manic depressive with potentially huge swings up and down. Being in a manic phase like in 2006 isn’t recovery, its part of the sickness.

  20. 20
    softwarengineer says:

    RE: One Eyed Man @ 19

    I Agree With You

    But without the 2006 economy, there’s no way we could absorb the 50% population increase since 1990….it’s a sad conundrum we’re in. We can all work for $2-5K/yr, that’s one solution….kiss your home value good-bye.

    I also believe if we did something to fix it, the corporist alligators would eat the solution alive, especially wage increases with population control. We’re back to square one. Same old same old, borrow more from the foreigners to buy more from the foreigners and have US companies and banks skim profits from sales.

  21. 21
    One Eyed Man says:

    RE: Pegasus @ 15

    I’m not sure you’re entirely correct Pegasus. I’m not a fan of Sheila Bair or the FDIC, but you don’t sell a bank overnight without taking a substantial discount to compensate for unknown risks to the buyer. At least part of the loss to the FDIC probably reflects that discount. And even if they had taken over City earlier, what’s to say that the FDIC wouldn’t have incurred just as big a loss. If the buyer thought the assets were overvalued or that collateral values might continue to drop, they’d discount them in any sale. How much difference does it make if the take over was last fall or this spring? IMO probably not much.

    In a normal bank sale the buyer would spend a substantial amount of time doing their due dilligence. I doubt that they have that luxury in most FDIC sales. And I don’t think the FDIC has the ability to take over and run banks while they work out a better deal with the buyer.

    Whidbey probably believes that they got the operations at a discount just like JP Morgan Chase thinks they got WAMU at a discount and Wells thinks they got Whacovia at a discount.

  22. 22
    softwarengineer says:

    They’re Booting Reid Out, Pelosi Next?

    Article in part:

    “…The survey of Nevada voters commissioned by the Review-Journal shows Reid getting 37 percent of the vote compared with 47 percent for Republican Sue Lowden, who would win if the election were today, while the slate of third-party and nonpartisan candidates would get slim to no backing….”

    http://www.lvrj.com/news/poll–reid-loses-full-ballot-test-91015514.html

  23. 23
    David Losh says:

    RE: One Eyed Man @ 21

    Going by hazy memory City was using the credit line of Bank of America. It was $300 million, I think. It makes no difference because the money was borrowed at 2%, lent at 6%, and 4% was float. 1% for servicing fees, and who knows; why would any one care.

    Bank of America can buy the bank and come out way ahead.

    The problem is the derivative market. If profit and loss is regulated then the security of the stock market, mortgages, commodities, or hard assets goes out the window. The games banks play will be irrelevant. This would be the collapse every one is talking about.

    Here again is my opinion; So What? Housing units, are what they are, housing units. Labor creates goods. Consumers still need goods.

    What I think every one is afraid of is if all the financing becomes like a real job no one will want to do it. If you can’t “make” a million dollars then no one will want to finance anything. BS, get a job, pay some bills, and welcome to America.

    If, on the other hand, you have some skills, if you can promote yourself, if you can stay ahead of the curve, then maybe, just maybe, you can “earn” a million dollars. We’ll see.

  24. 24

    RE: softwarengineer @ 22
    Nevada has always had a lot of Republicans around, and sitting members of Congress are going to feel the brunt of voter anger, so sure, I can see Harry Reid in danger, but Pelosi? Nah. She’s as deeply entrenched as Jim McDermott is here, Congressman for Life. If she got taken down it would be by someone further to the left. We’re talking San Francisco. To get defeated she’d have to be caught stealing from the homeless.

  25. 25
    pfft says:

    By softwarengineer @ 16:

    RE: pfft @ 13

    Wrong Pfft

    You’re stuck in comparing flat or small bailout gains from 2009, that will be butcher axed this year [without Stimulus II]. I compare now to 2008, when theings were more out of the repression [and it still horifying]. Until we return to a 2006 economy we’re all like Shakespeare said “idiots ranting on the stage”…..

    I don’t know what you’re saying.

    more positive news.

    “General Electric, reassured by signs that a global recovery was gaining momentum, said on Friday that its profit for the year might exceed expectations.”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/17/business/17electric.html?scp=2&sq=general%20electric&st=cse

    the article says GE Capital is turning around and it also profitable.

    Bank of America, With Merrill’s Help, Returns to Profit
    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/17/business/17bank.html?scp=2&sq=bank%20of%20america&st=Search

    they made $3.2 billion in the first quarter.

  26. 26
    pfft says:

    By softwarengineer @ 22:

    They’re Booting Reid Out, Pelosi Next?

    Article in part:

    “…The survey of Nevada voters commissioned by the Review-Journal shows Reid getting 37 percent of the vote compared with 47 percent for Republican Sue Lowden, who would win if the election were today, while the slate of third-party and nonpartisan candidates would get slim to no backing….”

    http://www.lvrj.com/news/poll–reid-loses-full-ballot-test-91015514.html

    we still got health care, thank you mr reid!

  27. 27
    TK says:

    The economy has barely showing sign of recovery and the market has already retraced 60% of the losses. At these prices, the stock market is pricing in for multiple years robust GPD growth and this week people were in a panic buy mode. Things are just getting giggly and bubbly everywhere.

    Maybe this time it is different.

  28. 28
    pfft says:

    By TK @ 27:

    The economy has barely showing sign of recovery and the market has already retraced 60% of the losses. At these prices, the stock market is pricing in for multiple years robust GPD growth and this week people were in a panic buy mode. Things are just getting giggly and bubbly everywhere.

    Maybe this time it is different.

    you could have said that for 2004, 2005, 2006 and 2007. remember how bad august 2007 was? the stock market still made new highs later in the year.

    Summer getaways latest casualty on Wall St.
    August 17 2007
    http://money.cnn.com/2007/08/16/markets/markets_summer/index.htm

  29. 29
    Pierce Anon says:

    RE: Hugh Dominic @ 18

    I also enjoyed the NPR piece about Magnetar. However, they did not point out the connections of Magnetar to Rahm Emanuel.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/yves-smith/rahm-emanuel-and-magnetar_b_535827.html

  30. 30
    TK says:

    pfft you are right and I think you should put all your money in the stock market now! If the economy is only turning around and we are able gained back 60% of the loss, the DOW should go to 25000+ when the recovery is in full speed.

    Look at AAPL, if this stock is not prophesying the future of the stock market, I don’t know what is.

  31. 31
    BillE says:

    I’ll be glad when the tax credit is gone just so I don’t have to see it all over the place. The real estate section of the papers are full of ads pushing the credit. Listings pushing it are annoying too, like the one I just read that says, “Would you turn down an $8000 gift? HURRY; get your offer in before April 30th to get your FREE gift!”

  32. 32
    wreckingbull says:

    RE: BillE @ 31 – Agreed. The NAR has been running that campaign with the Uncle Sam actor handing out checks to everyone. I found it to be pretty disgusting, given the bankrupt state of our nation.

  33. 33

    RE: wreckingbull @ 32 – Newsflash–it’s 2010. Who doesn’t own a DVR? ;-)

  34. 34
    Pegasus says:

    With the end of the $8000 tax credits(hopefully) will average housing prices drop $8000 or will the drop be more since the $8000 was leveraged in the mortgage? The money was used to stop the dropping and stabilize prices. Will the price declines now accelerate?

  35. 35

    RE: Pegasus @ 34 – You can’t look at just one factor to try to determine future real estate prices. But in any case you have it backwards. Prices will now skyrocket as those waiting for the credit to end come back into the market after being “forced” out for over 12 months. It’s pent-up demand! ;-)

  36. 36
    wreckingbull says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 33 – Actually I don’t even own a TV! The campaign is also in print. They are all over “This Old House” magazine, one of my favorite monthly rags.

  37. 37
    David Losh says:

    What we have in the next 10 weeks is a weaning off the government teet. First we had the Fed backing off the purchase of Mortgages, then we lose the tax credit, and finally we lose the temporary Census jobs.

    What we already have is banks, and government regulations, making it harder to get loans. In the end, by mid July, we’ll see a market correction. The government may step in again, but it’s my opinion they have too much else to do.

    By next September, with the kids going back to school, the last hope of rearranging a Real Estate portfolio will sink in to investor buyers of Real Property. This is where it all happens. People who have rental income, or own Notes for interest income, or the people just holding on to that hedge against inflation, will begin to liquidate.

    When high equity properties go onto the market there is more of a chance to sell for less than market prices. If you believe what you read, or hear, Gold will be the smart investment.

    Last, but not least, owner financing will be more popular, and as prices settle closer to value, by inflation, or by pure common sense, banks will lend again.

  38. 38
    pfft says:

    By TK @ 30:

    pfft you are right and I think you should put all your money in the stock market now! If the economy is only turning around and we are able gained back 60% of the loss, the DOW should go to 25000+ when the recovery is in full speed.

    Look at AAPL, if this stock is not prophesying the future of the stock market, I don’t know what is.

    if you look at other stock market dives this recovery was fairly normal. happened after 1973-74 and 2000-2002. the only thing remarkable is that nobody thought it would happen.

  39. 39
    David Losh says:

    RE: pfft @ 38

    After one of your last posts I looked at the 10 year stock market and it holds kind of steady around 8000. It was 4000 in the mid 1990s. For me it seems that we still have exhuberance from tech and software stocks, they have opened new doors to creating paper profits.

    Historically it seems to me we could have a solid stock market at as low as 6000 with complete economic security. From that perspective it seems right that the stock market we have today can ebb and flow with profits.

    The question is if the stock market is actually an indicator of anything or an extension of the board game post Tim put up today?

  40. 40
    BillE says:

    Hurry and get your FREE gift! All you have to do is spend hundreds of thousands of dollars and it’s FREE.

  41. 41
  42. 42
  43. 43
    HappyRenter says:

    Real Estate in Tukwila

    Today’s Seattle Times RE reports about affordable housing in Tukwila. However, it does not spend a single word about noise from flight traffic. Does anybody have any opinion about this?
    Is Tukwila a nice place to live?

    Thanks.

  44. 44
    Kary L. Krismer says:

    RE: HappyRenter @ 43 – I would think it would depend a lot on where in Tukwilla. Due east of the airport probably isn’t bad, unless maybe they’re affected by Boeing Field traffic. Even in Sea-Tac there are probably places without much noise.

    I’ve had some clients not bothered by the noise though. For example–if they grew up on an AF base.

  45. 45

    RE: HappyRenter @ 43
    Tukwila is ” patchy” meaning there are some parts that are quite nice, like near the Foster Golf course, overlooking the Duwamish River, and near Tukwila’s old part, where 42nd/Macadam, and 130th all come together. But right next to Pac Hwy/International Blvd, and across from the Tukwila community center are kind of scuzzy. Tukwila’s physically pretty large, and Southcenter mall and the shopping near it take up a lot of space.
    I don’t think most of Tukwila is affected by airport nose. Along Macadam you’ll get light rail noise.
    Tukwila has a reputation for having lousy schools, but if that’s not an issue, it has parts that have nice old houses and a semi rural feel.

  46. 46
    ray pepper says:

    RE: HappyRenter @ 43

    No it is not…

    The only area I would suggest near there is Normandy Park or Seahurst (98062).

  47. 47
    Mikal says:

    RE: Scotsman @ 42 – Surprising you a source other than the National Enquirer.

  48. 48
    Mikal says:

    RE: Mikal @ 47 – Meant have a source. Beer definately does not improve my typing.

  49. 49
    Willy Nilly says:

    RE: HappyRenter @ 43

    Depends on what your definition of nice is. I live in Normandy Park and it is a nice place to live but the plane noise is pretty bad, and the primary reason we will be moving from here. Ira is spot on about Tukwila being patchy.

  50. 50

    Lot’s of places have jet noise. I remember it was moderately bad up in the U District 30 years ago. And it was moderately bad on First Hill 20 years ago.

    Lot’s of places are “patchy” too. Kent is a good example of that.

  51. 51
    Willy Nilly says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 50

    Since they put in the 3rd runway at Seatac the noise has increased considerably. It seems they change the approach direction weekly – probably to give people in the surrounding areas a noise break. Air traffic will increase over time, unless the “end of days” Scotsman predicts has us all back to donkeys and carts. I frequently have trouble falling asleep when all the evening traffic ramps up from 9:45 pm until 11:30, and 6:30 am it starts up again for a few hours. It all depends how sensitive to noise you are. 30 years ago? OK.

  52. 52

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 50
    I guess it has to do with the flight path? When I lived in Leschi, jet noise was pretty bad.
    But I’ve spent lots of time in Burien, which is much closer to the airport, and it’s far quieter.
    And yes, lots of places are patchy. London has good and bad neighborhoods. Paris has good and bad neighborhoods. Los Angeles and New York have good and bad neighborhoods.
    Yet in the Seattle area, entire cities and neighborhoods are dismissed as being dangerous because small sections of those neighborhoods are bad. I hear this all the time. White liberals want to hang out with white liberals. Diversity’s great, as long as you don’t have to live near those people. Diversity is celebrated by going out for Phad Thai.

  53. 53

    RE: pfft @ 25

    Yeah Corporations Make Money

    As they laid off more people.

  54. 54
    wreckingbull says:

    RE: Ira Sacharoff @ 52 – I used to think Seattle had some bad jet noise, until I moved closer to NAS Whidbey. The EA-6B makes a 737 sound a pleasant flowing stream. Usually only Wednesday nights though.

  55. 55
    HappyRenter says:

    RE: Ira Sacharoff @ 52

    We live right now near the U district and Ravenna. There is a negligible amount of flight noise. The most amount of noise comes from the fraternities and sororities nearby (especially after exams are over). Otherwise, it’s a quiet area. North-east Seattle is supposed to be one of the most desirable areas in Seattle. However, yesterday we went for a walk around Laurelhurst and discovered some spots which did not look very nice, like rental complexes near a park between the Metropolitan Market and the Ronald Mc Donald house. They looked run down and old. But then you move a few blocks away like 39th NE and you see a couple of nice Townhomes. So, I guess it’s correct that a lot of areas in Seattle are patchy. However, I know Tukwila from the Stripmall and the airport and I have a hard time imagining it as a place to live.

    The article in the Seattle Times yesterday depicted Tukwila as a nice and affordable area but I guess those articles in the Seattle Times RE page tend to not be very well balanced. It seems that they are biased towards selling.

  56. 56
    pfft says:

    By softwarengineer @ 53:

    RE: pfft @ 25

    Yeah Corporations Make Money

    As they laid off more people.

    prove it. we’ve added jobs in like 3 out of the last 5 months. I forgot thought, that’s not good enough because of dubai or greece or the census or something else. and endless amount of excuses and moving the goal posts because you either won’t admit you are wrong or can’t analyze an economy.

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