Global Economic October Thread

Talk about the global and national economy to your heart’s content, as much as it takes to get it out of your system so the rest of the site can stick to real estate and housing.

As of 09/07/2010, global economic comments that do not directly relate to Seattle-area real estate go only in threads designated for this specific subject.

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About The Tim

Tim Ellis is the founder of Seattle Bubble. His background in engineering and computer / internet technology, a fondness of data-based analysis of problems, and an addiction to spreadsheets all influence his perspective on the Seattle-area real estate market. Tim also hosts the weekly improv comedy sci-fi podcast Dispatches from the Multiverse.

317 comments:

  1. 251
    Scotsman says:

    RE: patient @ 250

    I think both came about because Obama has very little if any knowledge of or competence in economic fields. He came into office in the dark with regard to economic issues and was easily led or manipulated into making the choices he did, choices that support banking interests and not much more. If he really had an understanding of economics he would have led in a very different direction, one more in accord with his leftist leanings.

  2. 252
    patient says:

    RE: Scotsman @ 1
    You are probably right. I’m so disillusioned by both the right and the left that I pretty much don’t care if Ds or Rs is voted into the congress or the presidency as long as they replace the incumbents that needs to be held responsible for the incompetent, corrupt mess they have created and refuse to address. From now on I’m only interrested in right or wrong without any party ideology. I think that’s what’s called an independant :)

  3. 253
  4. 254
    ARDELL says:

    RE: Scotsman @ 3

    PS: Did you recently say you wanted a prospective tenant to give you $30,000 up front, in exchange for a discount on the monthly rental? Apologies if that was not you. If it was, can you explain the logic of that to me?

    (posted on wrong thread, but edit would not let me delete. sorry for being off topic Tim)

  5. 255
    Scotsman says:

    RE: ARDELL @ 4

    What? You’re not making any sense. Try again tomorrow.

  6. 256

    RE: ARDELL @ 4 – I think that was Losh or Ray promoting the idea of paying 6 months rent up front to get a 20% discount.

  7. 257
    David Losh says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 6

    That was Ray, I was against it.

  8. 258
    Herman says:

    Great interview: U.S. Is in ‘Race to the Fiscal Bottom’

    http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Issues/Budget-Impact/2010/10/06/David-Stockman-US-Is-in-Race-to-the-Fiscal-Bottom.aspx

    Applaud the use of the word “vigorishes”.

  9. 259
    David Losh says:

    RE: Herman @ 8

    Thank you for a great article. How could we forget David Stockman?

    There are two things that he didn’t address, and that was the war, and the poverty level.

    He was right that the Democrats haven’t ended the wars in Iraq, and Afghanistan, but he left out the military spending all together. The military build up under Reagan should be applauded, but that part is over. The funding should be redirected to global economic development.

    The other is that Census data presented a new problem for America which is the 1 in 7 people living in poverty. Poverty is a bad thing for the middle class. Poverty means entitlements. Poverty means government spending.

  10. 260
    Blurtman says:

    Furthering the comparison of his adminstration’s (lack of) performance with the ongoing economic crisis to the Bush response to Hurricane Katrina, Obama himself on the Jon Stewart show stated: “Larry Summers did a heck of a job.” Channeling the former war criminal president, Oabama compares Summers to Brownie. He could do the same with Eric Holder.

    Pffttt, you are wrong, once again.

  11. 261
    pfft says:

    not a good chart for long-term stock bulls.

    Real Growth in US Stocks, 1871-2010
    http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2010/10/real-growth-in-us-stocks-1871-2010/

  12. 262
    pfft says:

    By Scotsman @ 1:

    RE: patient @ 250

    I think both came about because Obama has very little if any knowledge of or competence in economic fields. He came into office in the dark with regard to economic issues and was easily led or manipulated into making the choices he did, choices that support banking interests and not much more. If he really had an understanding of economics he would have led in a very different direction, one more in accord with his leftist leanings.

    like what.

  13. 263
    pfft says:

    By patient @ 2:

    RE: Scotsman @ 1
    You are probably right. I’m so disillusioned by both the right and the left that I pretty much don’t care if Ds or Rs is voted into the congress

    wow are you in for a surprise the next two years.

    anyone remember when republicans shut down the government in the 90s? the political climate is going to be worse this time with are the crazy rand paul types in government.

  14. 264
    pfft says:

    By Blurtman @ 10:

    Furthering the comparison of his adminstration’s (lack of) performance with the ongoing economic crisis to the Bush response to Hurricane Katrina, Obama himself on the Jon Stewart show stated: “Larry Summers did a heck of a job.” Channeling the former war criminal president, Oabama compares Summers to Brownie. He could do the same with Eric Holder.

    Pffttt, you are wrong, once again.

    he was making a joke. obama acted quickly but not enough in helping the economy.

    what do you want holder to do?

  15. 265

    By pfft @ 11:

    not a good chart for long-term stock bulls.

    Real Growth in US Stocks, 1871-2010
    http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2010/10/real-growth-in-us-stocks-1871-2010/

    Especially when that chart is pegged against exponential stock growth!

  16. 266

    By pfft @ 14:

    By Blurtman @ 10:

    Furthering the comparison of his adminstration’s (lack of) performance with the ongoing economic crisis to the Bush response to Hurricane Katrina, Obama himself on the Jon Stewart show stated: “Larry Summers did a heck of a job.” Channeling the former war criminal president, Oabama compares Summers to Brownie. He could do the same with Eric Holder.

    Pffttt, you are wrong, once again.

    he was making a joke. obama acted quickly but not enough in helping the economy.

    what do you want holder to do?

    It was Obama mis-speaking. He referred to Summers doing a heck of a job. A few in the audience started laughing even before Stewart said something like: “Dude, you don’t want to use that expression.”

  17. 267

    By pfft @ 13:

    anyone remember when republicans shut down the government in the 90s? the political climate is going to be worse this time with are the crazy rand paul types in government.

    We might actually see moderate Ds and Rs join together. Nancy P won’t have much power in any event.

  18. 268
    patient says:

    “wow are you in for a surprise the next two years.”
    One can only hope.

  19. 269
    BoJack says:

    Pfft-

    Have you ever had a single thought that did not originate with Paul Krugman?

  20. 270
    pfft says:

    By BoJack @ 19:

    Pfft-

    Have you ever had a single thought that did not originate with Paul Krugman?

    why? I don’t need krugman’s column to tell me that the republicans are going to shut government down. it’s been discussed in the media for the last two weeks.

  21. 271
    pfft says:

    By Kary L. Krismer @ 16:

    By pfft @ 14:

    By Blurtman @ 10:

    Furthering the comparison of his adminstration’s (lack of) performance with the ongoing economic crisis to the Bush response to Hurricane Katrina, Obama himself on the Jon Stewart show stated: “Larry Summers did a heck of a job.” Channeling the former war criminal president, Oabama compares Summers to Brownie. He could do the same with Eric Holder.

    Pffttt, you are wrong, once again.

    he was making a joke. obama acted quickly but not enough in helping the economy.

    what do you want holder to do?

    It was Obama mis-speaking. He referred to Summers doing a heck of a job. A few in the audience started laughing even before Stewart said something like: “Dude, you don’t want to use that expression.”

    no it was a joke.

  22. 272
    pfft says:

    By Kary L. Krismer @ 17:

    By pfft @ 13:

    anyone remember when republicans shut down the government in the 90s? the political climate is going to be worse this time with are the crazy rand paul types in government.

    We might actually see moderate Ds and Rs join together. Nancy P won’t have much power in any event.

    there are no moderate R’s left. haven’t you been watching?

  23. 273
    pfft says:

    By patient @ 18:

    “wow are you in for a surprise the next two years.”
    One can only hope.

    I hope you aren’t betting on actual changes. republicans will offer a few spending cuts that are a joke(like shutting down the dept. or education) or won’t go through. the deficit is not going to come down because of republicans.

  24. 274
    pfft says:

    so much for the double dip.

    New GDP numbers show economy growing only slowly
    http://www.miamiherald.com/2010/10/29/1898784/new-gdp-numbers-show-economy-growing.html

  25. 275
    patient says:

    “I hope you aren’t betting on actual changes.”
    A total lock up that prevents the gov. from doing anything related to the economy is probably preferable since as soon as they do something it ends up making things worse and adding another trillion or so on the tax payers back.

  26. 276
    pfft says:

    By patient @ 25:

    “I hope you arenâ��t betting on actual changes.”
    A total lock up that prevents the gov. from doing anything related to the economy is probably preferable since as soon as they do something it ends up making things worse and adding another trillion or so on the tax payers back.

    all of congress’ actions have been a positive for the national debt. healthcare will actually subtract from the national debt, the largest bill to do so in a while. doing nothing is making things worse.

    the worst fact of all this is no cap and trade.

  27. 277
    pfft says:

    you wouldn’t know this from the media’s tone. I fixed the headline.

    Real GDP: Only 0.8% below pre-recession levels
    http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2010/10/real-gdp-still-08-below-pre-recession.html

  28. 278
    Blurtman says:

    RE: pfft @ 14 – Prosecute fraud.

  29. 279
    Blurtman says:

    William Black laments on the lack of the prosecution of criminal bankers.

    http://dailybail.com/home/william-black-calls-on-fdic-to-seize-bank-of-america.html

  30. 280

    By pfft @ 22:

    By Kary L. Krismer @ 17:

    By pfft @ 13:

    anyone remember when republicans shut down the government in the 90s? the political climate is going to be worse this time with are the crazy rand paul types in government.

    We might actually see moderate Ds and Rs join together. Nancy P won’t have much power in any event.

    there are no moderate R’s left. haven’t you been watching?

    I don’t think you need to go much further than Bellevue to find a moderate R. He’s only voted with the Rs 86% of the time this session.

    http://projects.washingtonpost.com/congress/members/r000578/

    But part of the reason they are so partisan is Gerrymandering, and also some extreme districts (e.g. McDermott’s).

  31. 281

    By pfft @ 21:

    By Kary L. Krismer @ 16:

    By pfft @ 14:

    By Blurtman @ 10:

    Furthering the comparison of his adminstration’s (lack of) performance with the ongoing economic crisis to the Bush response to Hurricane Katrina, Obama himself on the Jon Stewart show stated: “Larry Summers did a heck of a job.” Channeling the former war criminal president, Oabama compares Summers to Brownie. He could do the same with Eric Holder.

    Pffttt, you are wrong, once again.

    he was making a joke. obama acted quickly but not enough in helping the economy.

    what do you want holder to do?

    It was Obama mis-speaking. He referred to Summers doing a heck of a job. A few in the audience started laughing even before Stewart said something like: “Dude, you don’t want to use that expression.”

    no it was a joke.

    You are either completely delusional, or you haven’t seen the interview. No way was it a joke. Why would President Obama want to create a comparison between his own competence and that of Bush’s where the reference in both instances is to someone seen as a failure?

  32. 282

    By pfft @ 26:

    By patient @ 25:

    “I hope you aren�t betting on actual changes.”
    A total lock up that prevents the gov. from doing anything related to the economy is probably preferable since as soon as they do something it ends up making things worse and adding another trillion or so on the tax payers back.

    all of congress’ actions have been a positive for the national debt.

    Not necessarily. If the health care bill crushes business, GDP will drop, taxes will drop, and other government spending will rise.

  33. 283

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 31 – At the Rally to Restore Sanity, they played the clip of President Obama saying Summers did a heck of a job, and then the Stewart over-voice was “most of us blow it. . ..”

  34. 284
    pfft says:

    By Blurtman @ 28:

    RE: pfft @ 14 – Prosecute fraud.

    can you be more specific?

    what was the heart of the banking crisis? it was over leveraged banks. are you going to prosecute people for being over leveraged to housing?

  35. 285
    pfft says:

    By Kary L. Krismer @ 30:

    By pfft @ 22:

    By Kary L. Krismer @ 17:

    By pfft @ 13:

    anyone remember when republicans shut down the government in the 90s? the political climate is going to be worse this time with are the crazy rand paul types in government.

    We might actually see moderate Ds and Rs join together. Nancy P won’t have much power in any event.

    there are no moderate R’s left. haven’t you been watching?

    I don’t think you need to go much further than Bellevue to find a moderate R. He’s only voted with the Rs 86% of the time this session.

    http://projects.washingtonpost.com/congress/members/r000578/

    But part of the reason they are so partisan is Gerrymandering, and also some extreme districts (e.g. McDermott’s).

    that’s not a moderate?

  36. 286
    pfft says:

    By Kary L. Krismer @ 31:

    By pfft @ 21:

    By Kary L. Krismer @ 16:

    By pfft @ 14:

    By Blurtman @ 10:

    Furthering the comparison of his adminstration’s (lack of) performance with the ongoing economic crisis to the Bush response to Hurricane Katrina, Obama himself on the Jon Stewart show stated: “Larry Summers did a heck of a job.” Channeling the former war criminal president, Oabama compares Summers to Brownie. He could do the same with Eric Holder.

    Pffttt, you are wrong, once again.

    he was making a joke. obama acted quickly but not enough in helping the economy.

    what do you want holder to do?

    It was Obama mis-speaking. He referred to Summers doing a heck of a job. A few in the audience started laughing even before Stewart said something like: “Dude, you don’t want to use that expression.”

    no it was a joke.

    You are either completely delusional, or you haven’t seen the interview. No way was it a joke. Why would President Obama want to create a comparison between his own competence and that of Bush’s where the reference in both instances is to someone seen as a failure?

    did you see the way obama winked? it was a joke. summers was not a failure. he helped keep america out of a depression. I don’t think he did good enough but he wasn’t a failure.

  37. 287
    pfft says:

    By Kary L. Krismer @ 32:

    By pfft @ 26:

    By patient @ 25:

    “I hope you arenÃ�¢ï¿½ï¿½t betting on actual changes.”
    A total lock up that prevents the gov. from doing anything related to the economy is probably preferable since as soon as they do something it ends up making things worse and adding another trillion or so on the tax payers back.

    all of congress’ actions have been a positive for the national debt.

    Not necessarily. If the health care bill crushes business, GDP will drop, taxes will drop, and other government spending will rise.

    here we go again with healthcare crushing businesses. ain’t gonna happen.

    Health care bill should help small business
    http://www.usatoday.com/money/smallbusiness/columnist/strauss/2010-03-22-heath-care-strauss_N.htm

    you know what helps businesses?

    a healthy workforce
    customers who aren’t bankrupt
    customers who aren’t dead(40,000 a year die in the US from lack of healthcare. that’s a vietnam almost every year and a half.)

    in general a society that has healthy parents will have healthier kids. that is good for businesses. that is good for the crime rate.

    indirect savings isn’t even counted in estimates and that will probably more than offset anything we spend.

  38. 288

    By pfft @ 36:

    By Kary L. Krismer @ 31:

    By pfft @ 21:

    By Kary L. Krismer @ 16:

    By pfft @ 14:

    By Blurtman @ 10:

    Furthering the comparison of his adminstration’s (lack of) performance with the ongoing economic crisis to the Bush response to Hurricane Katrina, Obama himself on the Jon Stewart show stated: “Larry Summers did a heck of a job.” Channeling the former war criminal president, Oabama compares Summers to Brownie. He could do the same with Eric Holder.

    Pffttt, you are wrong, once again.

    he was making a joke. obama acted quickly but not enough in helping the economy.

    what do you want holder to do?

    It was Obama mis-speaking. He referred to Summers doing a heck of a job. A few in the audience started laughing even before Stewart said something like: “Dude, you don’t want to use that expression.”

    no it was a joke.

    You are either completely delusional, or you haven’t seen the interview. No way was it a joke. Why would President Obama want to create a comparison between his own competence and that of Bush’s where the reference in both instances is to someone seen as a failure?

    did you see the way obama winked? it was a joke. summers was not a failure. he helped keep america out of a depression. I don’t think he did good enough but he wasn’t a failure.

    This is getting ridiculous. He winked after the audience started laughing and when Stewart was obviously about to call him on it. Start at 1:45 of this link:

    http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-october-27-2010/barack-obama-pt–3

    BTW, that he didn’t intend it is also shown by trying to cover by calling a non-pun a pun.

  39. 289

    RE: pfft @ 37 – Wow, you found one person who thinks that the health care reform will help business. Counting you, that makes two people! ;-) Oh wait, we’re back to just you because the link you posted was apparently something from before the legislation was even enacted.

    Here’s what small business owners think:

    http://www.uschambermagazine.com/article/new-health-care-law-causes-small-business-uncertainty-poll-finds

    And as to large business, we already have Boeing and Microsoft making changes trying to adapt.

  40. 290
    Scotsman says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 38

    Pants on the ground
    Pants on the ground
    Looking like a fool with your pants on the ground

    Hat on sideways
    grill in your mouth
    Looking like a fool with your pants on the ground!

  41. 291
    pfft says:

    By Kary L. Krismer @ 38:

    By pfft @ 36:

    By Kary L. Krismer @ 31:

    By pfft @ 21:

    By Kary L. Krismer @ 16:

    By pfft @ 14:

    By Blurtman @ 10:

    Furthering the comparison of his adminstration’s (lack of) performance with the ongoing economic crisis to the Bush response to Hurricane Katrina, Obama himself on the Jon Stewart show stated: “Larry Summers did a heck of a job.” Channeling the former war criminal president, Oabama compares Summers to Brownie. He could do the same with Eric Holder.

    Pffttt, you are wrong, once again.

    he was making a joke. obama acted quickly but not enough in helping the economy.

    what do you want holder to do?

    It was Obama mis-speaking. He referred to Summers doing a heck of a job. A few in the audience started laughing even before Stewart said something like: “Dude, you don’t want to use that expression.”

    no it was a joke.

    You are either completely delusional, or you haven’t seen the interview. No way was it a joke. Why would President Obama want to create a comparison between his own competence and that of Bush’s where the reference in both instances is to someone seen as a failure?

    did you see the way obama winked? it was a joke. summers was not a failure. he helped keep america out of a depression. I don’t think he did good enough but he wasn’t a failure.

    This is getting ridiculous. He winked after the audience started laughing and when Stewart was obviously about to call him on it. Start at 1:45 of this link:

    http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-october-27-2010/barack-obama-pt–3

    BTW, that he didn’t intend it is also shown by trying to cover by calling a non-pun a pun.

    john steward cut him off. it was a joke get over it.

  42. 292
    pfft says:

    By Kary L. Krismer @ 39:

    RE: pfft @ 37 – Wow, you found one person who thinks that the health care reform will help business. Counting you, that makes two people! ;-) Oh wait, we’re back to just you because the link you posted was apparently something from before the legislation was even enacted.

    Here’s what small business owners think:

    http://www.uschambermagazine.com/article/new-health-care-law-causes-small-business-uncertainty-poll-finds

    And as to large business, we already have Boeing and Microsoft making changes trying to adapt.

    you really linked from the US chamber magazine? really?

    so debunk my link. prove what he said isn’t true.

  43. 293
    pfft says:

    By Scotsman @ 40:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 38

    Pants on the ground
    Pants on the ground
    Looking like a fool with your pants on the ground

    Hat on sideways
    grill in your mouth
    Looking like a fool with your pants on the ground!

    wow an old guy made a pop culture reference not from the 1970s.

    RIGHT ON MAN!

    republicans/conservatives have no sense of humor. that’s why they are republicans/conservatives.

  44. 294

    RE: pfft @ 42 – I’m sure the US Dept. of Commerce has absolutely no idea what business owners think, as opposed to a columnist.

    I’m not sure why I need to “debunk” what one person thought about legislation that wasn’t even enacted yet and might not have even been in final form at the time he last read a portion of it. There’s nothing there that even addresses what I was referencing–something you know very well is something I claim.. That the health care legislation will force massive inflation into the health care system. That’s what will crush business and the entire economy. Our economy cannot survive with more expensive health care and an aging population. The two together will be very bad, unless something changes.

  45. 295

    By pfft @ 41:

    john steward cut him off. it was a joke get over it.

    Did Jon Stewart grab his eyelids and delay the blinking?

    It was a stupid slip of the tongue. Admit it.

    But let’s assume it was a joke. What would compel President Obama to make a joke that compares his economic response to Bush’s Katrina response? It’s absurd to even suggest it was a joke.

  46. 296
    David Losh says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 44

    Obama will be the greatest American President in my life time, and history will prove that.

    Health Care Reform, is as the name implies, Health Care Reform. There was no way to close insurance companies for the fraud that they have become. We have to go along with paying auto insurance, it’s another law that needs to be changed. We still have banks even though they have been proved to be engaged in out, and out theft, by deception, and fraud.

    There are many things in the American system of economics that need to be changed, and that is why Barrack Obama was elected. He has exceeded all of my expectations, but much more needs to be done.

    Health Care Reform has left a window of opportunity for the insurance industry to fleece America, but that will change. We need to get insurance out of Health Care. With Private Health Insurance we have one of the highest infant mortality rates of industrialized nations. Our population is sick, and unhealthy. We are drug dependent, yet have a war on drugs. Have cold? Take a pill, and we have a pill for everything. Drugs that grow like weeds, are cheap, and plentiful, are illegal.

    We need Health Care, and Banking Reform. Fortunately we have a President in office who recognized that, and took action.

    Speaking of action we are winding down both Iraq, and Afghanistan wars. Remember when McCain claimed he could win a war in Iraq? What a maroon.

    All in all, if we can keep the Republicans at bay we might have a chance to become a Great Nation.

  47. 297
    Scotsman says:

    RE: David Losh @ 46

    “Obama will be the greatest American President in my life time, and history will prove that.”

    Wishing won’t make it so, David. He will be seen as the least effective, most divisive, most blatantly political president of the last 100 years. He will be seen as responsible for the re-alignment of the political parties from republicans and democrats to small government conservatives and a more socialist left. His historical maker will be political cynicism, the high water mark of political double-speak and elitism among the political class. We’re headed back toward the true citizen legislator. For that we can thank him.

  48. 298
    David Losh says:

    RE: Scotsman @ 47

    For that we can thank him.

    The Republicans have proved to be unAmerican. The Republicans have become the enemy, but that was before Obama’s time.

    The Bushes did so much damage with cronies like ***** Cheney, and Rumsfeld, that it made little difference which outsider we elected.

    Obama took on insurance, banking, health care, energy, and education. If the Republicans were smart they would have gotten on board. They are not that smart. Instead they circled the wagons around George Junior.

    They stood in the way of progress.

    If the Republicans do any thing to disrupt the path we currently have they will be the focal point of sever anger. We will not, we can not, allow the unAmerican activity that the Republicans represent.

  49. 299

    By David Losh @ 46:

    Speaking of action we are winding down both Iraq, and Afghanistan wars. Remember when McCain claimed he could win a war in Iraq? What a maroon..

    Was this a joke?

  50. 300

    By David Losh @ 48:

    Obama took on insurance, banking, health care, .

    I agree, if by “took on” you mean gave them billions of dollars and signed legislation that forces everyone to do business with them. ;-)

  51. 301
    David Losh says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 49

    No, it’s not a joke. Do you honestly see us continuing in either campaign?

  52. 302
    David Losh says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 50

    Less than a trillion dollars was allocated by the Obama administration, and most of that money is coming back. If you are referring to health care, you can thank the Republicans for the mess that became. Rather than help, they obstructed, and demanded we pay ransom to both banks, and insurance companies. Republicans could have gotten on board, but they, again, sold out the American people for a few grubby dollars for the cronies.

  53. 303
    What's my name says:

    RE: Scotsman @ 47
    Hey, there you are. I’m still wondering who your favorite president was.
    I was just kidding about Jeff Davis (I mean, unless that’s the right answer).

  54. 304
    Blurtman says:

    RE: pfft @ 34 – The crime requiring action by Holder is fraud.

    The term ‘fraud’ is generally defined in the law as an intentional misrepresentation of material existing fact made by one person to another with knowledge of its falsity and for the purpose of inducing the other person to act, and upon which the other person relies with resulting injury or damage.

    He can start with Obama advisor Robert Rubin and the excs at CitiBank.

  55. 305

    By David Losh @ 51:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 49

    No, it’s not a joke. Do you honestly see us continuing in either campaign?

    No, but Bush set in place what got us out of Iraq, based on what McCain had been calling on long before Bush acted. As a result of that we were already “winding down” in Iraq before President Obama even took office. If President Obama wants to take credit for Iraq, he should step up and accept full blame for the economy.

    As to Afghanistan, it’s hardly “winding down,” it’s ramping up. President Obama is using the same “surge” strategy in Afghanistan that he was critical of in Iraq, the strategy that worked in Iraq. He’s also taking a lot more action in neighboring Pakistan. It’s part of the reason the extreme left is not happy with President Obama.

  56. 306

    RE: David Losh @ 52 – Why would I blame the Republicans for a bill that almost none of them voted for and which has the signature of a Democratic President? That’s just crazy talk. The health care bill was a bill pushed through Congress by Democrats and a Democratic President. That they couldn’t get something better passed does not mean they don’t take the blame for enacting what they did enact.

    I don’t usually think there’s much difference between Ds and Rs, and blame them both for most things (e.g. the 2008 financial crisis). Health care is an exception. This is entirely the Ds baby, although there is possibly one R Senator also at fault.

  57. 307

    RE: David Losh @ 52 – I want to say more about Losh’s odd way of looking at things.

    Let’s say two groups of hikers were lost and agreed it was best to stay together. There were three routes they could go. Group A wanted to go to the right. Group B wanted to go to the left. Neither group could get their choice accepted by the other group, but with support from one member of Group A they could agree to go down the middle road. The middle route lead them off a cliff.

    Using Losh’s logic, the fall off the cliff would be the fault of Group A, even though every member of Group B supported that choice.

  58. 308
    Blurtman says:

    Interesting excerpt from the book The Monster, by Michael W. Hudson, about the leading subrpime mortgage predatory lender Ameriquest. The founder and CEO of Ameriquest became a billionaire as a result of Ameriquest’s criminal activities. He was a big donor to Bush-Cheney, and was rewarded with a post as Ambassador to Netherlands. Think his estate is giving back the billions?

    http://dailybail.com/home/how-to-forge-a-clients-signature-and-other-lessons-from-insi.html

    America loves its criminals, though, as long as they spread the money around. Obama’s buddy Deval Patrick was an Ameriquest board member at the height of thir fradulent activities, 2004-2006. Mc Cain’s presidential campaign advisors were lobbyists for Ameriquest. Ameriquest’s CEO gave millions to Bush-Cheney, and was co-chair of the 2004 Republican convention. The unstated Republican convention theme: America, we stand for fraud and murdering civilians in unecessary wars.

    Any wonder why the USA has slipped to an historic low on the intnerational corruption index?

  59. 309
    David Losh says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 57

    You’re assuming a cliff.

    The war in Iraq was Bush, the surge was Bush, and insisted on by Republicans.

    The Pakistan Afghanistan border is where it is largely thought Osama bin Laden is. that is now the focus of that war effort. The stated goal is to kill Osama bin Laden.

    My point is that Republicans have been a thorn in the side of the American people. They have brought us nothing good. The entire Republican platform is negativity, racism, and a continued path to poverty.

  60. 310

    RE: David Losh @ 59 – I’m not assuming off a cliff, I’m challenging your claim that President Obama is somehow responsible for getting us out of Iraq. Senator Obama opposed what got us out of Iraq. He can’t have it both ways–blaming Bush for the economy and taking credit for Iraq.

    And again, please find a citation for where President Obama ever said we were in Afghanistan to kill OBL. If that’s why we have people putting their life on the line and actually dying, that’s absurd.

    This entire discussion makes me a bit uncomfortable, because I’m not as anti-Obama as what the thread (and the health care thread) make it appear. I’m just not as partisan as you are. I actually support most of what President Obama has done on the economy, with the main exceptions being his rabid anti-business rhetoric and his disastrous health care legislation, both of which have overwhelmed any positive impact of his other economic reforms. President Obama and the economy is like buying a new car and asking ***** Balch to detail it. (That’s an old guy reference for pfft.).

  61. 311
    David Losh says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 60

    As I said before I am a guns, and gold fiscal conservative who recognizes both Bush I, and II as unAmerican. Both getting us out of Iraq, and killing Osama bin Laden were campaign promises Obama made.

    Obama has delivered much more than I ever expected.

    Health Care reform has to be done. In my comment I said that Republicans, and their anti American agenda, obstructed the Health Care Bill. They contributed nothing while running an political campaign against a sitting President.

    Republicans were, and are, claiming that Bush Light got unfair treatment during his raid against the American People. The wealthy, in this country alone, received a redistribution of wealth, from the People of this Great Nation, to a very anti American 1% of the population.

    Wealth, and being wealthy, does not translate into the American Dream when so many people are forced into poverty, lack basic human care, and are repeatedly robbed of opportunity. The housing crisis is a case on that point.

  62. 312
    David Losh says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 60

    While the kids are finishing their homework it gives me some time to flesh out my comments about the Bushes, and Republican Party.

    Ronald Reagan was the greatest American President in my life time for many reasons. George Senior was elected with the expectation he would continue Reagan’s fiscal policies. George was a disappointment from the very beginning.

    He intimidated Noriega, and Hussein. He was picking fights on two continents. His inability to negotiate out of his aggression lead to the ouster of Noriega, and Hussein’s invasion of Kuwait. Then came the New World Order speech. George Senior is an embarrassment.

    When Clinton was elected, and I’m pretty sure most right thinking Americans voted George out of office, the Republican Party started whining. They mistook the defeat of health care as a victory. Clinton, of course proved to be another great President who did capitalize on Reagan’s economy.

    Now no one wanted to elect Bush Light, no one. The only reason little George was put on a ballot was that no one thought Al Gore could be beat. Unfortunately for Al Gore he made an ill fated speech in favor of extending the assault weapons ban.

    Second Amendment Rights are the only issue Republicans have been able to seize on. Americans recognize the Right to Bear Arms as essential to maintaining freedom in this country.

    Bush Light was kept in the Presidency on that issue only. What the Bushes, and their cronies did during the Bush Light regime has proved to be devastating.

    The one issue Republican part has done nothing to help this country, and everything it could to destroy it. Americans tolerate the elitist jargon that Republicans throw around, but we understand what they want is to give our tax dollars to the very wealthy, and exploit the Middle Class. Killing off the poor goes without saying.

    The wealthiest people in this country got $2.9 trillion dollars during the Bush Light reign while our poverty rate exploded. The middle class have become slaves to debt for assets that are losing value by the day. The game changed, the rules changed, and the Middle Class was left in the dust.

    If Republicans get another toe hold in politics we will have to vote them out. Until the time when Republicans can bring something, anything to the table other than defending wealth, they need to be kept away from the political process.

    This is 2010. The world shrank. The wealthy have our money, and we want it back. Americans need to travel more, especially in the Third World, see more, and talk less. If you think just giving money to insurance companies is an issue you need to see some people fighting for a bowl of rice.

    You can not secure yourself from desperate people. Quiting desperation should be a campaign slogan.

  63. 313
    Haybaler says:

    Did anybody else watch 60 minutes tonight?

    by Intrepid_Iconoclast October 31, 2010 9:36 PM EDT
    Some day people will wake up and realize the villain in all this is not the government or incumbents, but rather Wall St playing with UNREGULATED financial instruments. Maybe those voters will also realize that they carried the water on financial deregulation that lies at the root of all the trouble, by voting in candidates who stood up for deregulation.

    The idea that voting out incumbents changes things amounts to a mental victory at most. A mental victory that changes little. The people of middle America (largely red state territory) are only reaping what they sowed. Why do they suddenly expect a different outcome now simply because their big employer moved out?

    The economy simply can never recover on Main St, because we no longer have the ability to raise interest rates as an inflation fighting tool when the economy truly recovers. There are simply too many interest rate derivatives (unregulated insurance policies) on the books that would become payable when interest rates are raised to fight inflation. Wall St created all of these fancy, unregulated insurance schemes, and sold them to people who bought this crap insurance on the premise it would pay them the difference in borrowing costs when interest rates go up. This same “insurance scheme” is behind the motive to put poor people into houses, and put credit cards in the hands of deadbeats. The banks could now go after risky customers for profit, and if the deadbeats don’t pay, then the insurance was supposed to make good on the difference. Except that “insurance” was a ponzi scheme operated by Wall St.

    The politicians have 3 choices, to deliberately keep the Main St. economy down to avoid inflation creeping into the system, or recover Main St and upon raising interest rates, pay off those ‘insurance policies’ to those who would be entitled to be paid when interest rates go up (would be costly to the treasury, since it owns the insurance co), or recover Main St and let hyperinflation kill the buying power for all Americans (even those still employed) when we have no tools to fight inflation. It would appear that Obama and Co have favored choice #1, sacrificing that unemployed 10% (or 18% if you count everybody) to avoid those insurance payouts or the drop of buying power due to uncontrollable hyperinflation. Apparently to Obama’s people, funding soup kitchens is the better, safer choice.

    You wanted deregulation. Well, you got it. You got reamed by Wall Street’s $700 trillion ‘unregulated insurance’ ponzi scheme right up your collective behinds. Now come none of these desperate, jobless, middle class cities never talk about Wall Street’s role? Do they even know

    Read more: http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7009215n&tag=contentMain;contentAux#ixzz140OMbS24

  64. 314

    I don’t see much difference between President Obama and W, but I’ll agree with you on the gun policy hurting the D’s position in 94. Clinton admitted that. Like Clinton’s gun policy, President Obama’s health care and the stimulus are really hurting the Ds this election. We’ll know how much in about 48 hours.

    We’ll see if he can recover from a pretty rough first two years, like Clinton did. I think it’s entirely possible, and that the following SNL News joke a couple of weeks ago was premature.

    SNL: “In Washington, President Obama’s recent speech to a women’s conference was interrupted when his presidential seal on the podium fell off [pause] two years early.” ;-)

  65. 315
    patient says:

    RE: Haybaler @ 63

    Deregulation enabled the financial industry to make super-sized, short-term ponzi schemes but the gov. choose to take on their mistakes with tax payer money/debt instead of letting them eat what they cooked. This is why people want the incumbents out not because they enabled the banks to hang themselves with deragulation.

  66. 316
    Scotsman says:

    RE: patient @ 65

    Exactly! Deregulation isn’t the problem. We can deregulate and increase competition and financial creativity, but we can’t use .gov money to backstop every crazy scheme financial institutions may come up with. You can’t decouple risk and reward without creating an environment that leads to abuse and eventually destruction. The mistake wasn’t deregulation, but the privatization of rewards while the risks were socialized. By throwing out incumbents voters send the first of what will probably be many blunt messages. Voters may not be as financially sophisticated as the Wall Street elites, but they do understand their check book balances and whether or not they’ll be able to retire. And really, it isn’t that complicated; if you want to keep the returns that a high risk deal may involve, you also have the be willing to eat the loses when it goes bad. That’s not high finance- it’s common sense that any Joe 6-pack poker player understands

  67. 317

    RE: patient @ 65 – Not a Ponzi scheme.

    The top three overused terms on this board are: #1. Fraud; #2. Crime; and #3 Ponzi scheme.

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