Weekly Twitter Digest (Link Roundup) for 2011-08-20

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About The Tim

Tim Ellis is the founder of Seattle Bubble. His background in engineering and computer / internet technology, a fondness of data-based analysis of problems, and an addiction to spreadsheets all influence his perspective on the Seattle-area real estate market. Tim also hosts the weekly improv comedy sci-fi podcast Dispatches from the Multiverse.

43 comments:

  1. 1
    Toad37 says:

    Just spoke to my friend that is 180k underwater on his condo on the ghetto. He spoke to a real estate attorney Thursday. The attorney told him to stop paying his two mortgages and save some money for ‘possibly’ having to eventually settle for 50 cents on the dollar on his 2nd. So basically the attorney told him verbatim what I told him. He was throwing good money after bad by paying.

    There are a ton of foreclosures still to come, so buyers need to look at distressed pricing if they want to buy right now. Non-distressed prices in general should drift down to bridge the gap. Look for distressed properties in the best location you can afford, imho.

  2. 2

    RE: Toad37 @ 1 – I’m glad that your friend went to an attorney, but I don’t think it’s fair to say the attorney told him what you said verbatim. I don’t recall you dealing properly with the liability on the second mortgage at all. Again it’s good that your friend got some professional advice.

  3. 3
    Macro Investor says:

    By Kary L. Krismer @ 2:

    RE: Toad37 @ 1 – I’m glad that your friend went to an attorney, but I don’t think it’s fair to say the attorney told him what you said verbatim. I don’t recall you dealing properly with the liability on the second mortgage at all. Again it’s good that your friend got some professional advice.

    I’m just trying to understand. What value do you believe an attorney offers?

    I say this because if you are under water, the worst case scenario is you are judicially foreclosed or sued, and forced to honor the terms of the note. Unless I’m missing something, that would be the maximum loss.

    If you have no assets or income, there’s nothing they can do. So it makes sense to live free until they get around to foreclosing.

    If you have sufficient income or assets, bankruptcy wouldn’t seem to apply. You wouldn’t qualify for principal write down. Deed in lieu gets you out, but you don’t get the free rent. Same for short sales, which has the added disadvantage of being a lot of work.

    The scenario is the same for seconds. If you have no assets, let them sue you for nothing. If you have assets, none of the options really matter either way. It’s up to how hard the bank wants to investigate and recover. There may be tax consequences, but that’s also cheaper than continuing to pay.

  4. 4

    RE: Macro Investor @ 3 – In the other thread I mentioned possible defects in the documents which might provide a defense, possibly being able to strip the 2nd away in a Chapter 13, and the possibility of not being too worried about a judgment if you signed the note before you were married and have been married for three years. Those were just off the top of my head, I am sure there are others.

    Results can depend on a lot of different facts, and you’re not going to get to that detail without seeing an attorney.

  5. 5

    Zillow says that Seattle area homes are 14% overpriced. They also say that Zillow stock is a screaming bargain.
    Four years ago, Zillow said my house was worth 25% more than I could have sold it for. Now, Zillow says my house is is worth about 25% less than what I could sell it for.
    So, if they’re within 25%, it’s possible that Seattle area homes are underpriced by 11%. Or overpriced by 39%.
    How and when did they become a credible source of information?
    They use alogorithms. I pull numbers out of my butt. We’re about equally accurate.

  6. 6
    ARDELL says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 2

    Kary, why is it “illegal” for an agent to tell an owner to stop making payments, but not “illegal” for a lawyer to tell him the same thing? Here I was thinking it was “illegal” to tell someone to stop paying their mortgage, given the charge against Hellickson. But you don’t seem to have a problem with Toad37’s friend hearing that from a lawyer vs from Toad or an agent.

    That makes no sense to me. Is it illegal to say it? Legal for a lawyer and Toad to say it but not an agent? If a lawyer told Toad’s friend that the best advice is to stop making his payments…is there really a law against an agent giving that same “best” advice? That’s pretty sad when it becomes illegal for an agent to give good advice, don’t you think?

  7. 7
    Jonness says:

    Of course Seattle prices are too high. Unfortunately, very few RE agents are ethical enough to admit this to their buyers. I’ve been warning people for years about what’s taking place, but the RE agents keep lying. Thus, it doesn’t matter if a few people are ethical enough to tell the truth about what’s occurring. There are so many unethical liars in this industry, the few voices telling the truth are easily drowned out.

    Ray Pepper admits prices are going down. In fact, he screams it from the roof tops. Ardell admits prices are going down. A few others admit it. But for the most part, this industry is full of unethical con artists.

    I can’t tell you how many open houses I’ve been to where unethical agents are waiting inside to run a con job on me in an attempt to convince me to wreck my financial future. This is the rule, not the exception.

    The story is always the same. Do these people get together and straighten out their con job? Or do they get it all from the NAR? I don’t know why, but the sales pitch is always the same BS. They believe prices have bottomed. Even if they go down a little bit from here, it’s better to buy now because mortgage rates are on the verge of skyrocketing, and then I’ll no longer be able to afford to buy a house.

    There’s got to be a way to clean up this industry and get these people, as a whole, to start telling the truth about what’s occurring.

  8. 8
    ARDELL says:

    RE: Jonness @ 7

    I just got off the phone with a woman’s husband explaining why a lease purchase to buy next year makes no sense for them. The woman has been calling me relentlessly for the last 10 days begging me to help her find a lease purchase to lease for one year and buy at the end of 12 months. She doesn’t speak English very well.

    I finally got her husband on the phone today who speaks English a letter better. They are in a nice rental at $1,250 a month with four bedrooms and no need to leave it. We talked about next year being an election year with no way to 2nd guess prices or interest rates, as the political environment of a Presidential Election year can push prices and rates in any direction due to political forces, which are strongest just before a Presidential Election.

    He and I agreed that a Lease Purchase was not a good idea right now. He then said: “Explain this to my wife”. I said “I’ve been talking to your wife for over a week. YOU explain it to your wife.” We both had a good laugh.

    I have other clients buying today with different needs and reasons. There is never a day where NO ONE should buy a house or a day when EVERY ONE should buy a house. In the grand scheme of living there for 10 years or so there is NO answer as to where prices will be when they sell. NONE!

    The only thing people should know is home prices can always go up OR down…always…no exception. If someone is waiting for that imaginary day to come back that guarantees prices up “forever” again…then they are waiting to be lied to.

  9. 9
    Macro Investor says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 4

    Agreed. However, it still seems like the best course of action is to default and start getting free rent. The bank’s actions determine if you need an attorney. Yes, you will need one for a judicial foreclosure or lawsuit, or to determine if bankruptcy is the best defense.

    I still don’t see how an attorney can help in the planning stages. The bank has the control. The borrower can only react. If you are presented with a bill for the second, then you can get an attorney to fight it. What can they do beforehand?

  10. 10
    Macro Investor says:

    By ARDELL @ 6:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 2

    Kary, why is it “illegal” for an agent to tell an owner to stop making payments, but not “illegal” for a lawyer to tell him the same thing? Here I was thinking it was “illegal” to tell someone to stop paying their mortgage, given the charge against Hellickson. But you don’t seem to have a problem with Toad37’s friend hearing that from a lawyer vs from Toad or an agent.

    That makes no sense to me. Is it illegal to say it? Legal for a lawyer and Toad to say it but not an agent? If a lawyer told Toad’s friend that the best advice is to stop making his payments…is there really a law against an agent giving that same “best” advice? That’s pretty sad when it becomes illegal for an agent to give good advice, don’t you think?

    There’s only a law against practicing law without a license. So you preface everything as your opinion and not legal advice. Just like you do with the square footage of a house (and many other things). You tell them it’s their responsibility to research it.

  11. 11

    By ARDELL @ 6:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 2

    Kary, why is it “illegal” for an agent to tell an owner to stop making payments, but not “illegal” for a lawyer to tell him the same thing?

    Because it’s practicing law without a license.

    We’ve had this discussion before in the context of explaining contract terms. You as an agent cannot explain contract terms because you are not authorized to practice law!

    http://www.wsba.org/~/media/Files/Legal%20Community/Committees_Boards_Panels/Practice%20of%20Law%20Board/Advisory%20Opinions/04-02%20Real%20Estate%20Agent.ashx

    BTW, the NWMLS is changing the state-wide forms, presumably in part because agents like you didn’t understand the need to get both the buyers’ and sellers’ signatures to have an earnest money returned. And no it’s not the form you relied on (Form 35R) being amended, it’s the form I said controlled (21). Check out the red-line copies posted on Discover. That though, is an example of why agents should not explain forms. They don’t have the legal training to understand them.

    Finally, the DOL didn’t do that well against Hellicksons on the stop making payments claim. The ALJ found a lack of sufficient evidence as to Micheal, and a lot of any evidence as to his wife and others. So there was a proof issue.

  12. 12

    RE: Macro Investor @ 9 – The thing is an attorney hopefully is not just figuring this out as they go. They’ve done this before so they’re not inventing the wheel.

    The biggest problem I see though is that not all attorneys are experienced in all of the possible options (bankruptcy, loan modifications, short sales, etc.) So they may push you toward one or the other, depending on what they know.

    But as to what they can do beforehand, there may be many things, or things that they should not be doing. Back when I was practicing law I preferred to have clients see me at least 100 days prior to a foreclosure date.

  13. 13
  14. 14
    Pegasus says:

    By Toad37 @ 1:

    Just spoke to my friend that is 180k underwater on his condo on the ghetto. He spoke to a real estate attorney Thursday. The attorney told him to stop paying his two mortgages and save some money for ‘possibly’ having to eventually settle for 50 cents on the dollar on his 2nd. So basically the attorney told him verbatim what I told him. He was throwing good money after bad by paying.

    Yo toad. That is not what you told the guy or at least what you previously posted that you said. You told him to stop paying on his mortgages and you thought he did not have to pay on the second. You were looking for assurances that you were right and I along with others told you had given him bad advice. Now you have found out you were incorrect about the second mortgage liability. So basically the attorney did not tell him verbatim what you told him. There is a big difference between no liability and liability on the second.

  15. 15
    ARDELL says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 11

    That’s baloney then! What a Country…dictating WHO can say what!? Holy CRAP!

    Kary…there is no way in hell I am going to stop doing things the way I do them…I may rewrite the freaking forms…but there is no way in hell I will EVER stand in front of a client and not explain to them what they are signing.

    If the buyer has the RIGHT to CANCEL ON Inspection…they have the right to cancel ON Inspection, without the seller agreeing with the buyer about cancelling. That is just plain ridiculous. If that is the case…then no Earnest Money should be paid until AFTER the inspection is satisfied.

    There is no way in hell that a seller should be able to tie up the buyer’s Earnest Money, so that they buyer cannot make an offer on a different house the day after they cancel on Inspection. That is ludicrous.

    I don’t give a RA how many people try to twist reality into what they WANT vs what is best for my buyer client or my seller client. That is manipulation at its worst.

    You keep fighting to manipulate the system into its demise…to the point where it no longer applies to real life. You keep doing that Kary…it can be your legacy to change the real estate industry into a pile of papers that renders Agents powerless. Go for it PAL!!!

    What a load of crap.

  16. 16

    RE: Macro Investor @ 9 – One more thing. Depending on the amount of the second, and the income and assets of the owner, the owner would need advice as to whether to file bankruptcy prior to the foreclosure, or to wait and see if something could be negotiated after the foreclosure

    I don’t want to go into complete detail, but by filing bankruptcy before the tax situation is a bit clearer, and you could possibly get even more “free rent.” You also would start all the bad timelines running earlier. On the other hand, if you’re out of work, it might be a bad time for a bankruptcy.

    The advantage to waiting is you might be able to cut a deal to avoid bankruptcy, but perhaps with a bit more tax risk (insolvency should probably cover that, but bankruptcy is a more certain exception) and if you can’t cut a deal you’ll be looking at a bankruptcy later, when either the laws or your situation might not make that as useful.

    There is not clear one answer is best for everyone, which is why you need to see an attorney experienced in working through these things.

  17. 17

    RE: ARDELL @ 15 – Yes, Ardell, we all know: You don’t think rules apply to you. We get it. You’ve made that clear over and over and over.

    I will warn you though that we are talking about a criminal offense. If the Law Practices Board cannot get someone to behave, they go to the prosecutor.

    Also, my recollection is that if you get sued on this, that it’s a per se Consumer Protection Act violation, meaning limited treble damages and attorney fees. And I doubt your malpractice carrier would cover that.

    But go ahead and do what you want to do. After all, the rules don’t apply to Ardell!

  18. 18

    By ARDELL @ 15:

    If the buyer has the RIGHT to CANCEL ON Inspection…they have the right to cancel ON Inspection, without the seller agreeing with the buyer about cancelling. That is just plain ridiculous. If that is the case…then no Earnest Money should be paid until AFTER the inspection is satisfied..

    Again, we’ve debated that in the past.

    First, neither Craig nor I think that the right to cancel on inspection is as clear cut as you do. But what do we know about contract law? We only went to law school and passed the bar exam.

    Second, even if the inspection was rejected on proper grounds, that does not mean that the buyer gave the seller proper and timely notice. That is why the seller has had to sign off before the closing agent releases funds, rather than just accepting a piece of paper from the buyer. That should be obvious to most people.

    Third, I have a clause that delays the earnest money deposit to after removal of the inspection contingency. Because I didn’t want to be using a form multiple times with clients I paid a real estate attorney review the language used. Most of that was due to the prior Distressed Property law, but I had the entire form reviewed. As I’ve noted, I was not a real estate attorney when practicing, so I thought it prudent to have a real estate attorney review my language.

  19. 19

    RE: Pegasus @ 14 – Your recollection is the same as mine. Thank you.

  20. 20
    Ray Pepper says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 18

    “But what do we know about contract law? We only went to law school and passed the bar exam.”

    Agreed.. You and Craig no nothing more then many of us here in reading and understanding a specific contract.

    Toad my wife agrees with everything you say and in addition wants you to know that your friends 1st and 2nd payments should be saved each and every month while you seek loan mod after loan mod. Listen to what the Lienholders offer your friend 2-3 years down the road my wife reiterates. Many of her friends have stopped paying on their seconds and they got offers of 25-30 cents on the dollar to settle their seconds. Those that have had their properties foreclosed with 2nds have not heard anything from their 2nds for the last two-three years currently except for 1 friend who had a lien filed in their county of residence for the debt due.

    She wants to wish your friend all the support in this troubling time and emphasize that your friend has very good company with millions that will face the same scenario.

    I personally want to emphasize that your friend is a bum and I’m sick of financing his luxurious lifestyle and buying his new cars for him. Furthermore his walking away from his moral obligations is simply inexcusable.

  21. 21
    ARDELL says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 17

    Stuff a sock in it Kary.

    You have crossed the line into some Bizzaro World where agents stick their hands up their butts and say:

    “I think that contract means you may be buying a house…but I’m not sure…you have to ask an attorney.”

    “I think that means you have to do a home inspection and deliver your resultant request by Friday…but I’m not sure…you have to ask an attorney.”

    “I think “Possession ON Closing” means you have to leave your house so the buyer can move in…but I’m not sure…you have to ask an attorney.”

    What a load of crap!

  22. 22
    Toad37 says:

    RE: Ray Pepper @ 20 – Ray, my soon to be foreclosed on friend drives a 2000 Maxima that has a front bumper held on by duct tape. He just got caught up in the insanity perpetuated by Greenspan’s bubbles like everyone else. It’s the bankers and the government that led to this mess.

  23. 23
    Toad37 says:

    The attorney was also a real estate agent, btw.

  24. 24

    RE: Ray Pepper @ 20
    Attaboy, Ray. Glad to see you toeing the party line. It must have taken many beatings at the hands of the NAR goons to get you to see the light, but just be happy they didn’t kill you.
    And you certainly can’t be held responsible for your wife’s opinions. The women these days…

  25. 25

    RE: ARDELL @ 21 – Given how bad you are at interpreting contracts, that probably wouldn’t be a bad idea.

    Seriously, you’re the agent who thought that a bank form required you to spy on your own client, and authorized the other agent to spy on them too!

    http://raincityguide.com/2011/01/20/short-sales-the-new-mortgage-fraud/

    Complete nonsense, and the fact that no one agreed with you didn’t tell you anything.

    Please tell me that you at least follow the rules about stopping at stop signs, red lights, driving on the right side of the road, etc.? Or are those also rules that don’t apply to Ardell?

  26. 26

    By Ray Pepper @ 20:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 18

    “But what do we know about contract law? We only went to law school and passed the bar exam.”

    Agreed.. You and Craig no nothing more then many of us here in reading and understanding a specific contract. .

    Ray, you don’t know what you don’t know.

    Often the result turns on more than what’s written in the contract, which is why Craig and I had the dispute with Ardell over the inspection clauses. Someone on Trulia asked a question which was practically written as a law school exam question–it had a lot of nuances. Not to say that the seller would have won on the facts presented, but it wasn’t open and shut in favor of the buyer like Ardell thought. Thus, in that particular case, it wasn’t clear that the buyer did have the right to back out on inspection (assuming they were using the standard state-wide forms). Without having legal training you wouldn’t know that.

  27. 27
    David Losh says:

    RE: Ray Pepper @ 20

    http://www.boruckprinting.com/

    Did you get the link about the printer? It may have gotten lost in the threads.

    Boruck does the majority of the campaingn signs here in Seattle. After the election they have a lull where it’s possible to get a good deal.

  28. 28
    David Losh says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 26

    This is Real Estate. As much as you want to generate attorney’s fees, we are in a weird little world of being a cross between a church, and circus.

    You can’t negotiate yourself out of a blog thread. Why would any one give you a deal to do?

    Whenever I talk with any one about Real Estate, which is daily, I think of how what I say might sound in court. When I was a kid, just starting out, I was always throwing around the sue me type of talk. I have a button, that I used to wear, that says “talk to my lawyer.” After you’ve been to court a couple of times, which I have, you learn, you don’t know what a judge will do. Most of the time you get a lecture about how could you, the Real Estate agent, possibly screw this up so bad it needed to waste the court’s time.

    I’m a real live, Winning through Indimidation kind of agent. Do you really think you have anything to say? Well, if you do, you should be saying it to your Broker.

    In my opinion any transaction you have even cast a glance at should be opened up to check for the errors. I’m sure in your mind you are saying something here. I mean it sounds good. If I didn’t know any better it would probably sound good.

    The problem is this is Real Estate.

    I know the public will be horrified to find out that Real estate agents, even the best agents, get fines. In some offices if you are not getting fines you aren’t doing enough business. How does that sit with you?

    As some one pointed out over on an Ardell post, there is no real recourse against bad agents. They are just allowed to bumble along.

  29. 29

    By David Losh @ 28:

    In my opinion any transaction you have even cast a glance at should be opened up to check for the errors. .

    David, once again you are saying things that you have no factual basis whatsoever to say. Why don’t you state publicly how many of my contracts you have ever seen?

    You really do just like to make stuff up don’t you? Why do you like to deceive the consumers here with things you know nothing about?

  30. 30
    David Losh says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 29

    Geez, Kary, I said, “in my opinion.”

    Just a second let me get some cocoa, and my jammies so you can tell me the story about how you are writing contracts for a Real Estate transaction.

  31. 31
    ARDELL says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 25

    You are correct, Kary. I don’t care how many agents agree with you on that. When the AGENTS sign an “arms length agreement” stating the seller will NOT be continuing to live in the house after he sells it short, the agents can’t pretend they don’t know the seller never moved out.

    No…I don’t care how many agents say “look the other way”.

    You say that is “nonsense”. I say that is “ethics”.

  32. 32
    Jonness says:

    By ARDELL @ 8:

    The only thing people should know is home prices can always go up OR down…always…no exception. If someone is waiting for that imaginary day to come back that guarantees prices up “forever” again…then they are waiting to be lied to.

    While I agree one can’t know with 100% certainty, one can be 99% certain about some things. And I’m 99% certain Seattle area house prices will reach a new low in the future as measured by the Case Shiller index.

    Of course, I’ve been repeating this mantra like a broken record for 4 straight years now. So much so, that many people accuse me of being perpetually bearish. But this is not true. When we finally reach bottom, I’ll probably buy 5 houses. But for now, area houses remain overpriced.

    http://insights.truliablog.com/vis/rent-vs-buy-q3/

  33. 33
    ARDELL says:

    RE: Jonness @ 32

    The reality of my world for 41 years in business Jonness is that most people who come to me to do something can’t wait 4 years or longer to do something. I honestly don’t get why you blame the professionals.

    Back when I worked at the bank and someone had to invest a lot of cash, the best I could do was dollar average in. I couldn’t just sit with it in cash for 4 years or longer. I remember a couple of maiden sisters who had small portfolios that turned into $16 Million overnight. Back in the early 80s that was an enormous amount of money for two ladies in their 70s. Their father had owned a carpet mill in PA that was bought out by Monsanto for $16 Million…$8 Million for each sister.

    The Dow had just run up from 775ish to just under 1300. I was Bearish that day…but I can’t sit with $16 Million in cash when someone hands it to me and says “invest it”. I split it 60/40 bonds and stocks. Don’t remember which. Didn’t matter to the sisters as they didn’t even move from where they were or increase their cost of living a dime. :) I took the stock portion…split it into 12 parts and invested 1/12th every month. The market went down to just under 1100 and started back up again, so I put the last three months in all at once at the end. I guess I got Bullish in the 9th month.

    My point is that Bullish or Bearish impacts what I do and how I do it…but rarely does that equate to do nothing for 4 years or more. Never really.

    Even an investor…have one coming into town next month to spend a couple of million dollars. He doesn’t want to wait for some market bottom. He’s going to invest more every year and “dollar average” his investments, as he has for many years.

    I don’t really tell people what to do…I just help them do the best they can at what they are trying to do. Try to pick the best values and safest investments, whether it is an investor or a family who will live in the home. But I can’t tell the family to sit it out for four years. You can do that…but once you are ready…I can’t tell you to wait another four years once you have made your decision to come to me for assistance in making wise choices.

    It just doesn’t work that way. What would you expect me to do? I can’t think of one instance where I would tell someone to wait for 4 years who came to me to buy property. I have told people to rent for 12 months in late 2007 and early 2008. But when they came back to me in 2009, after the market dropped, we went out and bought something I was pretty sure would sustain the value, like a short sale or a bank owned property.

    Just like dollar averaging in over 9 to 12 months for the old heiress ladies. I can only help them do “it” well…i can’t say don’t do it at all. Most times that just isn’t an option or appropriate advice from a professional.

  34. 34
    Voight-kampff says:

    By Kary L. Krismer @ 29:

    By David Losh @ 28:

    In my opinion any transaction you have even cast a glance at should be opened up to check for the errors. .

    You really do just like to make stuff up don’t you? Why do you like to deceive the consumers here with things you know nothing about?

    Kary, you seem concerned about “the consumers” here, yet I recall you do not try to cultivate or gain clients by what you post on blogs etc… Which makes me curious: do you tell your clients about sites such as this, or RCG, so they could learn more about you, your RE views, or how you interact with others?

  35. 35

    By Voight-kampff @ 34:I recall you do not try to cultivate or gain clients by what you post on blogs etc… Which makes me curious: do you tell your clients about sites such as this, or RCG, so they could learn more about you, your RE views, or how you interact with others?

    The only Internet sites I might typically mention to a consumer or a client are Redfin, Estately and John L. Scott for their search tools. Truila and Zillow might get mentioned for their stale and incomplete listings, and the latter for its nice views of approximate property lines.

  36. 36

    By ARDELL @ 31:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 25

    You are correct, Kary. I don’t care how many agents agree with you on that. When the AGENTS sign an “arms length agreement” stating the seller will NOT be continuing to live in the house after he sells it short, the agents can’t pretend they don’t know the seller never moved out.

    No…I don’t care how many agents say “look the other way”.

    You say that is “nonsense”. I say that is “ethics”.

    Ardell, that’s not what the form said, and in any case it didn’t require you to check up on your client. The reason no other agents thought the same as you is other agents can read better than you.

    Second, you have no ethics. That’s the real reason you aren’t a member of NAR, WR, etc. How can someone who refuses to follow rules have ethics?

  37. 37

    By Voight-kampff @ 34:

    or how you interact with others?

    In case you haven’t noticed, I treat others here as they treat me. Although not entirely. David Losh yesterday insulted my abilities, and I haven’t returned that because I don’t know his abilities (as he doesn’t know mine). But if Ardell insults me, I will respond in kind. She apparently hasn’t figured that out, for if she had she would know I have a lot more ammunition against her than she has against me, not to mention the ability to use it.

    The real estate business is generally a lot friendlier than the legal business. In the legal world the other side typically tries to tear apart your work, you tear apart theirs, and then you have a third party tear apart possibly both of your positions. In real estate both sides generally want the same thing–a closing. But there are times, although rare, where you do have to be tough on another agent, and other times where you just cave because it’s not worth the effort. You need an agent that can do both.

    This issue with Dave and Ardell over whether the DOL and NWMLS fine agents for pricing short sales too low would be in the latter camp if this were the real world. If they wanted to risk fines after being informed of those decisions, I would let them.

  38. 38
    Ray Pepper says:

    RE: Toad37 @ 22

    Toad, I apologize because you apparently do NOT know me very well or my beliefs in what owners of upside down mortgages should do. You must be new here so hang around.

    My wife wants you to watch this video and pass it onto your friend and anyone you know in similar situations.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJiR0lu99_I&feature=relmfu

  39. 39

    By Toad37 @ 23:

    The attorney was also a real estate agent, btw.

    There are a number of agent/attorney combinations in this area. I know of several, and most of the ones that are on my referral list for legal advice regarding default are such.

    The reason for responding to this though is that most of those attorneys are not really that on top of the bankruptcy options, so I thought I would give an example of how Chapter 13 can work, just in case that applies to your friend’s situation. If it does, they should see an attorney that does Chapter 13 to see if they might take advantage. That would be especially true if bankruptcy is likely in any event.

    Here’s the scenario. Buyer buys a house for $300,000 using an 80/20 loan package. For simplicity, let’s assume that both were interest only loans, or that with non-payment they owe at least the original loan amounts of $240,000 and $60,000.

    If their property is worth even $1 less than $240,000, they can file a plan of reorganization which strips away the second loan. They will have to make some payments for X months, some of which can go to curing any deficiency on the first mortgage. When they complete their plan hopefully they will have no unsecured debt and will only have a lien against their property for the first mortgage of $240,000. The $60,000 mortgage will have been discharged and also stripped from the property. This is what the press calls “cramdown” if you want to research it further.

    Again, if this is the case your friend should see an attorney that does Chapter 13. It’s possible that Chapter 13 might not fit them for some reason, and it’s also possible that perhaps the value is too tight. While I mentioned the property being worth only a dollar less than the amount of the first, I was talking about the value as found by the court. As a practical matter that means it is more risky to try this the closer the value is to $240,000, for the bank may come in with an expert saying it is worth $280,000 just so that the judge finds the property worth something over $240,000.

  40. 40
    David Losh says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 37

    The Real Estate business is brutal.

    Telling you that you are a problem for your Real Estate Brokerage is a simple statement of fact.

    You’re just attacking people. It makes no sense.

    What I say is that people should be very careful about what they think they learn on the internet about Real Estate. That’s especially true here.

  41. 41
    Voight-kampff says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 37

    For the record, I wasn’t making any judgements. I was just noticing things getting a little brutal around here lately, and it made me a little curious as to whether agents would ever worry, or care about their clients seeing what they post on various forums. I would think some agents would post in a disingenuous way to pander, or try to solicit sales.

  42. 42

    RE: David Losh @ 40 – David, at some point people here will realize that when you say “It’s just real estate” that means “It’s something I don’t understand.”

    If you want to be specific about something I said, go ahead. But your blanket statements that I don’t know what I’m saying are pure bull.

  43. 43

    By Voight-kampff @ 41:

    I would think some agents would post in a disingenuous way to pander, or try to solicit sales.

    You mean like make a “bottom call?” ;-)

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