Global Economic October Thread

Talk about the global and national economy to your heart’s content, as much as it takes to get it out of your system so the rest of the site can stick to real estate and housing.

For previous economic open threads, click here.

As of 09/07/2010, global economic comments that do not directly relate to Seattle-area real estate go only in threads designated for this specific subject.

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About The Tim

Tim Ellis is the founder of Seattle Bubble. His background in engineering and computer / internet technology, a fondness of data-based analysis of problems, and an addiction to spreadsheets all influence his perspective on the Seattle-area real estate market. Tim also hosts the weekly improv comedy sci-fi podcast Dispatches from the Multiverse.

214 comments:

  1. 1
    David Losh says:

    AP Exclusive: US general sees end to Libya mission

    Underwear-bomb maker believed dead in Yemen strike.
    The death of Ibrahim Hassan al-Asiri would make the Friday drone strikes on a convoy in the central deserts of Yemen one of the most effective single blows in the U.S. campaign to take out al-Qaida’s top figures.
    The strike also killed Anwar al-Awlaki, a Yemeni-American cleric who had been key to recruiting for the militant group and a Pakistani-American, Samir Khan, who was a top English-language propagandist.

    Let’s tag those onto the killing of Osama bin Laden.

    These acts show Obama as an effective military leader. We have a real chance for change in our Middle East policies that show strength through cooperation.

  2. 2
  3. 3
    whatsmyname says:

    Hey, hard bargaining real estate buyers, I wonder what kind of discount you could get on the old Perry place. They say it has nice white bathrobes in every room, but the pillow cases all have moth holes.

  4. 4
    David Losh says:

    RE: Blurtman @ 2

    These are Al Jazeera publications. Even though what they say may be correct, the way it’s presented makes it a conspiracy.

    In my opinion every one knew exactly what they were doing, and to whom. This was a war tactic targeting the Middle East, and any, or all who don’t like the way we do things.

    Well here we are, now what? OK, the videos are correct, now what? What are you going to do about it?

  5. 5
  6. 6
    Blurtman says:

    RE: David Losh @ 4 – Hardly a conspiracy when it is obvious. The question is, what are citizens going to do about it?

  7. 7
    Scotsman says:

    “Weakness in leading economic indicators has become so pervasive the Economic Cycle Research Institute now predicts a new recession is unavoidable.

    “The vicious cycle is starting where lower sales, lower production, lower employment and lower income [leads] back to lower sales,” co-founder Lakshman Achuthan declares in the accompanying video.

    Whereas Achuthan said the jury is still out in late August, the weakness in leading economic indicators — and ECRI uses a dozen for the U.S. alone, he notes — has become a “contagion” that is spreading like “wildfire.”

    http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/going-lot-worse-ecri-achuthan-says-recession-unavoidable-141929160.html

    “It’s too soon to predict just how bad it’s going to get, but he expects another spike in unemployment and further expansion of the federal government’s $1 trillion deficit. This forecast has huge ramifications for the 2012 election and the already struggling U.S. consumer and Achuthan says a “mild” recession is the best-case scenario.

    By now you may be wondering what separates ECRI’s recession call from the myriad other recession calls out there. First, ECRI’s primary raison d’etre is predicting recession and recovery calls. Second, and more importantly, The Economist reports ECRI has never issued a “false alarm” on a recession call”

  8. 8
  9. 9
    pfft says:

    By Scotsman @ 7:

    First, ECRI’s primary raison d’etre is predicting recession and recovery calls. Second, and more importantly, The Economist reports ECRI has never issued a “false alarm” on a recession call”

    there is a first time for everything.

    the yield curve is not screaming recession.

  10. 10
    Scotsman says:

    Damm facts! How do you spell “MASSIVE FAIL?” O.B.A.M.A

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/johnnyshop/6196456311/sizes/o/in/photostream/

  11. 11
    David Losh says:

    RE: Scotsman @ 10

    I don’t see how O.B.A.M.A. has caused a global economic contraction. If it were just here, in the good old U.S.of A., I might buy into the do nothing President theory.

    However, President Obama has done a lot in the short time he has been in office. The reason I voted for him is the mess we have in Northern Africa. We need resolution there before we can do anything here, with our oil based economy.

    We have a lot to unwind from the messes the Republican party have made. It really started with the failed contract with America that Newt was pushing. All the sound bites in the world will never compensate for the policies of Republicans.

    What we need right now is to pass the jobs bill. If Congress can’t get that done we will need to get rid of the Tea Party farce, and get on with rebuilding this once great country. Obama has been a big boost to our international image. We need to build on that. We need to support Obama as one of the most effective Presidents we have ever had.

  12. 12
    David Losh says:

    RE: pfft @ 8

    The issue with Greece was never austerity. The discussion over the week end now has the Euro as the focal point. Greece, Spain, Portugaul, and Italy were add on to the Euro zone. This came on the heels of the unification of Germany. The idea that every European country was going to have the same economic objectives was laughable.

    To build the global economy the major players are going to need to sit down and come to some global resolutions.

  13. 13
    Blurtman says:

    RE: Scotsman @ 10 – One possible future reality is that Obama gets a second term. I think with the right attack campaign, Romney has a shot, but that’s about it. Of course, Romney will need to throw gays, illegals and promiscuous non-birth control using women under the bus, as well as huddle up with the neo-cons about the Iran invasion plans.

  14. 14
    Blurtman says:

    RE: David Losh @ 1 – Check your facts. We seem to have killed a propagandist and a spokesperson who had no operational experience. Speaking out againt America, and urging others to attack America – a death sentence?

    http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/al-awlaki-strike-kill-bombmaker/story?id=14655903

  15. 15
    Scotsman says:

    RE: pfft @ 9

    “the yield curve is not screaming recession”

    Of course not- but it reflects manipulation, not reality. This curve, however, does scream recession- one that’s been ongoing since the year 2000:

    http://market-ticker.org/cgi-ticker/akcs-www?get_gallerynr=2201

  16. 16
    pfft says:

    By David Losh @ 12:

    RE: pfft @ 8

    The issue with Greece was never austerity.

    I know it’s the euro. the austerity is just the straw that broke the camels back.

  17. 17
    pfft says:

    By Scotsman @ 15:

    RE: pfft @ 9

    “the yield curve is not screaming recession”

    Of course not- but it reflects manipulation, not reality

    really? the fed is selling short-term bonds and buying long-term bonds.

    is there anything keeping people from selling short-term bonds and buying long-term bonds which would invert the yield curve? no. the simple and non-conspiratorial answer is that people are rushing into short-term bonds and staying there because they fear either inflation or they fear low-growth and a falling stock market.

    there is nothing magical keeping short-terms bonds down. the fed is selling them.

  18. 18
    Scotsman says:

    RE: David Losh @ 11

    “However, President Obama has done a lot in the short time he has been in office”

    Almost three years is not a short time. In that time, however, he has made the economy much worse by focussing his political capital on ramming through a health care program a majority of the country was against (as written). He made the economy worse by failing to address a proper balance of entitlement reform, taxes, and stimulus as soon as he took office, even though it was pretty obvious that was what we needed. He spent what stimulus was available on bailing out (temporarily) insolvent banks and failing green job companies, along with his union buddies, instead of really seeking a solution through hiring incentives, tax reform, and more cash in consumer’s pockets. He put his politics ahead of everything else at great cost to this country and the rest of the world.

    “What we need right now is to pass the jobs bill. If Congress can’t get that done we will need to get rid of the Tea Party farce”

    David- the democrats control congress and they don’t have the votes from their own party to pass the bill- it’s that bad. The tea party has nothing to do with the democrats total failure.

  19. 19
    Scotsman says:

    RE: pfft @ 17

    “is there anything keeping people from selling short-term bonds and buying long-term bonds which would invert the yield curve? no”

    Legally, no. But as a pratical matter, h#ll yes! Hey, I bet even you could name off a good half dozen potential issues/risks. How do you manage to even lose arguments with yourself? Is it drugs?

  20. 20
    David Losh says:

    RE: Scotsman @ 18

    Bank bail outs were already a done deal when Obama took office. It was a global economic melt down. I agree he should have not bothered with the Bush era economy, and let this country’s banks default.

    Health Care Reform, as Obama had first presented it, would have given the economy a huge boost. We need to nationalize health care, single payer, it’s not a debate.

    Giving away money is what Bush did, it didn’t work, never will. Tax cuts didn’t work. Entitlements? good luck with that no matter who gets elected. Once any one of that political scum touches my Social Security, or MediCare, or MedicAid they best start looking for a real job. We give them way more money than those entitlements cost and they squander it on military. The Reagan years are over, let’s move on.

    What else have you got in there, oh yeah, green jobs, and the unions.

    We’re an oil based economy. We give away money to the oil industry like it was going out of style. Iraq? oil. All of the Middle East, and all that boon doggle has cost us will pay for your entitlements. We prop up governments, fund covert operations, give weapons, give aid, give protection so we can have the over priced oil products we do. Let’s move on. Let’s give a few billion to green technology and see if we can cut some of the trillions we spend on providing oil.

    Unions are the only political block that actually add to the economy. Living wages make the world go around, and around.

    The Tea Party is a complete farce. The Republican party hasn’t provided one piece of legislation that helps any one. Show me anything they have done to improve anything, anything.

    The Republican Party had it’s hey day in the Reagan years. After that it all got to be a joke.

  21. 21
    David Losh says:

    RE: Blurtman @ 14

    You’re right I read that report yesterday afternoon.

    Your freedom of speach ends when you yell fire in a crowded theater. Insighting people to a Jihad of violence is against Sharia Law. Shah Allah that it is his will that defeats the works of th evil doers. It’s not for us to say.

    Your actions as a martyr are between you and Allah. Your cause must be just, and in proportion to the actions taken against you; an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth.

    Anyway, so far, the missions taken in the war on terror are much more to the point under Obama than under Clinton, or Bush I, or II.

  22. 22
    Blurtman says:

    RE: David Losh @ 21 – Yes, the missions undertaken under Obama are more effective, no way knowing what credit should fall where. And the hell with the Constitution.

  23. 23
    Scotsman says:

    RE: David Losh @ 20

    “Unions are the only political block that actually add to the economy”

    Oh yeah- they’re paragons of efficiency and competitiveness- if you live in a world where the facts don’t matter.

  24. 24
    David Losh says:

    RE: Scotsman @ 23

    Sorry, are you disputing the living wage? Do you think that a finacial engineer making $1.4 million a year, or more, is in any way contributing to the United States Economy?

    Better yet, let’s talk oil company profits. Do we really need the gas combustion engine? Should we ignore energy effeciancy?, not fund that because why? Should the government continue to give tax break to oil companies that pay the least, for the most hazardous of working conditions, unless those workers are unions?

    Come on. Unions are the only political block that makes a contribution to our consumer based economy. If you would prefer socialism, which it seems you do, then alright, I can get behind that.

  25. 25
    David Losh says:

    RE: Blurtman @ 22

    Yelling fire in a crowded movie theater covers that part of the Constitution.

    I’m just comparing Obama to the shock, and awe that you brought up. If it is a war on terror, Obama has been very effective.

    If I were standing outside of the United States, and looked at Obama compared to Clinton, or either Bush, I would say that Obama is an effective military leader. What he did in Libya is within the scope of our pattern of defense for the innocent. It was a powerful message. If we get out, it will be much more elevating for our global profile.

  26. 26
    pfft says:

    By Scotsman @ 23:

    RE: David Losh @ 20

    “Unions are the only political block that actually add to the economy”

    Oh yeah- they’re paragons of efficiency and competitiveness- if you live in a world where the facts don’t matter.

    better than the corporations…

  27. 27
    pfft says:

    By Scotsman @ 19:

    RE: pfft @ 17

    “is there anything keeping people from selling short-term bonds and buying long-term bonds which would invert the yield curve? no”

    Legally, no. But as a pratical matter, h#ll yes!

    no because if we were going to have a recession short-term treasuries will earn you nothing because yields are at zero while in long-term bonds you could make some money because yields still can go lower.

    YTD the SHY is up less than 2% while the TLT is up more than 16% as of a month ago. the returns are even better now I bet. zeros have been soaring:

    http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=EDV+Interactive#symbol=EDV;range=1y

    you didn’t know that though.

  28. 28
    pfft says:

    By Scotsman @ 18:

    RE: David Losh @ 11

    “However, President Obama has done a lot in the short time he has been in office”

    Almost three years is not a short time. In that time, however, he has made the economy much worse by focussing his political capital on ramming through a health care program a majority of the country was against (as written). He made the economy worse by failing to address a proper balance of entitlement reform, taxes, and stimulus as soon as he took office, even though it was pretty obvious that was what we needed. He spent what stimulus was available on bailing out (temporarily) insolvent banks and failing green job companies, along with his union buddies, instead of really seeking a solution through hiring incentives, tax reform, and more cash in consumer’s pockets. He put his politics ahead of everything else at great cost to this country and the rest of the world.

    “What we need right now is to pass the jobs bill. If Congress canâ��t get that done we will need to get rid of the Tea Party farce”

    David- the democrats control congress and they don’t have the votes from their own party to pass the bill- it’s that bad. The tea party has nothing to do with the democrats total failure.

    man where do I start? I’ll leave that one for tomorrow.

    by the way the stimulus saved or created up to 3 million jobs according to the CBO. we don’t need entitlement reform we need to repeal the unfunded tax cuts for the rich that were supposed to expire if we didn’t have surpluses…

  29. 29
    pfft says:

    “the democrats control congress and they don’t have the votes from their own party to pass the bill”

    uh care to edit that one?

  30. 30
    Scotsman says:

    RE: pfft @ 29

    It’s not that hard to understand- try again:

    “Senate Majority Whip Dick Durbin (D-Ill.) said, at the moment, Democrats in Congress don’t have the votes to pass President Obama’s jobs bill”

    There, that wasn’t to hard. . . was it?

    http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/184713-durbin-says-democrats-dont-currently-have-the-votes-for-obama-jobs-bill

  31. 31
    Scotsman says:

    RE: pfft @ 27

    Well then, you go right ahead and buy those bonds on the bet yields will go lower. I’ll watch from the sidelines and collect my dividends. Give me a call when rates break higher and let me know how badly you got hurt. I mean, It is possible they could go lower, but given they’ve already touched record lows (since 1953!) and all the turmoil going on in the world. . . I’ll let you bet on it, not me.

  32. 32
    Blurtman says:

    Score, pfft…..

    Bernanke warns Congress against deep budget cuts in weak economy

    Federal Reserve Chairman Ben S. Bernanke warned lawmakers Tuesday against cutting the budget too sharply with the U.S. economy still weak and facing new stresses from the European debt crisis.

    And the central bank chief expressed some empathy with protesters who have marched on Wall Street and in other cities in recent days complaining of the role of big financial institutions in creating the current economic mess.”

    http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/money_co/2011/10/federal-reserve-ben-bernanke.html

    Bernanke, the total sleazeball enabler of Wall Street, now, as he glimpses the guillotines, takes the “j’accuse” position. Too late. Next.

  33. 33
    Scotsman says:

    Hoening, on of the few good Fed governers, set to retire. He was frequently the only dissenting vote. Sad to see him go:

    “Hoenig said his issue isn’t so much with low interest rates as with the Federal Reserve distorting market signals and creating a false faith in monetary policy.

    Artificially high rates can crush an economy as readily as low ones can misallocate resources and fuel asset bubbles, he said.

    “We can’t rely on monetary policy. We can’t solve the international imbalances with monetary policy, but people don’t know that yet,” warned Hoenig, who oversees banks in Colorado, which is part of the Fed’s 10th District based in Kansas City, Mo.

    The core problem is that the United States has consumed more than it has produced for 20 years running. Consumers and governments in the developed world have piled on too much debt.

    Every time a crisis arose, the Fed would cut interest rates and inject money into the system. Easings after the Asian financial crisis, the Russian debt crisis and dot-com bust boosted confidence that lower interest rates were the answer.

    But each crisis required more medicine and triggered more side effects, including the construction of 3 million more homes than necessary between 2002 and 2007.

    Now the patient isn’t responding, he said.”

    http://www.denverpost.com/business/ci_18983364

  34. 34
    Blurtman says:

    Bye, bye, “Place” Holder. Can we please get rid of this coporatist bozo already?

    “Memo: Holder told of ‘Fast and Furious’ as early as July 2010

    Newly-obtained Justice Department documents show that Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. was told about the controversial “Fast and Furious” weapons investigation as early as July 2010, contradicting testimony he gave before a House committee in May saying he had learned of the operation just weeks earlier.”

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/oct/4/memo-holder-told-fast-and-furious-early-july-2010/?utm_source=RSS_Feed&utm_medium=RSS

  35. 35
    Scotsman says:

    RE: Blurtman @ 32

    Yup, they are starting to run. “As the guillotines approach, the enablers try to join with the rabble.”

  36. 36
    Scotsman says:

    RE: pfft @ 29

    There they go again- those lying democrats. Looks like it’s the republicans that actually want a vote on the jobs bill, but the democrats keep blocking it. Why would that be? And why does the white house keep lying about it?

    “On the Senate floor today, Republican leader Mitch McConnell asked for unanimous consent to proceed on voting on the bill. Reid, who has struggled to find enough votes for the bill in the Democratic caucus, objected to the motion and killed the opportunity for a vote. ”

    http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/obama-campaign-says-gop-blocking-jobs-bill-after-reid-blocks-jobs-bill_595022.html

  37. 37
    pfft says:

    By Scotsman @ 30:

    RE: pfft @ 29

    It’s not that hard to understand- try again:

    “Senate Majority Whip Dick Durbin (D-Ill.) said, at the moment, Democrats in Congress donâ��t have the votes to pass President Obamaâ��s jobs bill”

    There, that wasn’t to hard. . . was it?

    http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/184713-durbin-says-democrats-dont-currently-have-the-votes-for-obama-jobs-bill

    The Democrats control the Senate not the Congress you genius.

  38. 38
    Scotsman says:

    RE: pfft @ 37

    I’m glad you know that- but what’s your point? A bill has to pass both houses. Passage in the senate, along with the president’s support, would put pressure on the house to at least come up with a compromise. But it isn’t going to pass the senate, and it isn’t going to pass the house. It’s just going to make Obama seem foolish.

  39. 39
    Blurtman says:

    Is he saying that GDP has really been negative for quite a while?

    “MR. OBAMA: Well, and part of what happened over the last 15, 20 years is that so much money was made in finance that about 40 percent, I think, of our overall growth, our overall economic growth was in the financial sector. Well, now what we’re finding out is a lot of that growth wasn’t real. It was paper money, paper profits on the books, but it could be easily wiped out. “

  40. 40
    David Losh says:

    RE: Blurtman @ 34

    This program has been around since the Clinton Adminstration, that I know of. I would guess it has always been a part of the AFT budget.

    If Republicans are saying we should ban assault weapons that won’t go to far. If they are saying that any one in political office needs to know the details of every hair brain scheme our boot jack gestapo uses, well, there again, best of luck.

    If you read all of the reports these operations pay for themselves, and produce profits. Our government confiscates weapons, sells them to gun shops, then collects money from criminals to pay over retail prices for the weapons. It’s a money machine, especially if we can confiscate the same weapons again. That’s the program, in a nut shell.

  41. 41
    Blurtman says:

    RE: David Losh @ 40 – Yes, these programs existed under George W. Bush. That is not so much the issue, although the typically hypocritical Repubs are trying to make it so. The issue is, did Holder lie to Congress? I am no fan of “Place” Holder due to his bias in favor of the TBTF.

  42. 42
    David Losh says:

    RE: Blurtman @ 41

    I had a long debate on another thread about the Holder Fast, and Furious over the week end. I couldn’t figure out why any one would care about this program now.

    So, as usual, when I’m stumped by the conservative movement motives I watch Bill O Reilly, and Shaun Hannity.

    It took a couple of hours before Hannity trotted out this fat white guy with shifty eyes. He has written a book called Injustice, at your local book stores now. Evidently he hates Holder because Holder is black, and supports affirmative action. Holder has also failed in his duty to jail members of the New Black Panther Party.

    Hannity then pipes up with some story about the in depth reporting he did in 2007 about how Barrack Obama was at the Selma anniversary march, and the New Black Panther Party was there to support him. By the way Hilary Clinton was there also, but the New Black Panther Party was there to support Obama.

    Well, it all got to be real clear that we, as Americans need to get back to the very important business of jailing African Americans, and not bother about anything else. Thank God the Republicans have the hamburger guy who turned God Father’s Pizza around. That’s good old fashioned stick to itness, but let’s focus on Ron Paul? or Mitch Romney? How about the Perry guy, he evidently didn’t do well in some debate.

    The Republican party is a pathetic group of white supremacists who just want to talk about how daddy did it.

  43. 43
    Voight-kampff says:

    RE: David Losh @ 42

    Wait… Herman Cain is white supremacist?
    I usually read what you post with interest. I suppose I’m a mostly liberal democrat, but when I hear the “republicans are racist” bit ( even if it were true, which you cant know, you point to two opinion shows for evidence) it just destroys any credibility you have for a debate.
    It’s so weak, it’s like saying “man I hate the sport of Lacrosse, they’re all rapists”. How is the debate supposed to proceed?

    Weak.

  44. 44

    By Blurtman @ 39:

    Is he saying that GDP has really been negative for quite a while?

    “MR. OBAMA: Well, and part of what happened over the last 15, 20 years is that so much money was made in finance that about 40 percent, I think, of our overall growth, our overall economic growth was in the financial sector. Well, now what we’re finding out is a lot of that growth wasn’t real. It was paper money, paper profits on the books, but it could be easily wiped out. “

    This is similar to what I’ve said in the past–that too much of our business activity is services and not actually producing tangible things. While services are certainly necessary and useful, if at some point a country gets to the point where that’s nearly all it’s doing, that’s not a good thing.

    I would also add that a lot of past increases in GDP was probably simply related to the increase in the price of oil.

  45. 45
    David Losh says:

    RE: Voight-kampff @ 43

    Read the comment again. Yes the pizza guy, Herman Cain? is front, and center in the debates, in the right wing media, in the polls. Even last night with both Hannity, and O’Reilly they paid him great lip service. He took the worst of the Burger King? franchises, and made it number one. What I would like for you to notice is that while the press shows his image on screen, some other white guy is talking the sound bites.

    Putting Cain in the debates doesn’t change the fact that Republicans, in this campaign, have chosen to attack the President of the United States at every turn without cause. My opinion is that with the Tea Party, the Republican Party is playing racism at every turn.

    I think Hannity, Stossel, and Limbaugh, spout white supremacy. I think this whole campaign has come down to we need to get rid of Obama because he is black, and advancing a black agenda.

    If you are offended by the very idea of racism, and how it permeates our laws, legislation, politics, and economy, you just aren’t paying attention.

    I also want to make a clear distinction between racism, and white supremacy.

    While many white people disavow racism, they also think that white people can control the masses better by superiority. Let’s just take Democracy as an example. Democracy has been around since before the time of Christ, who was black, by the way. Some how white people have adopted this Democracy formula, and claim it as thier God given right to impose it on the rest of the world. It’s not just Democreacy, it has to be to the advantage of white people for it to correct. It has to be done the white way.

    How does that happen? How is it that a long standing political practice is now the sole invention of the French, English, and Americans. I’ll use Hamas as an example, duly elected, still not right enough. Cuba doesn’t have elections so we need to have an embargo. Do you really need a list?

  46. 46
    Blurtman says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 44 – Right. I’d go a bit farther. Let’s say the US computer industry began shipping computers at such a very competitive price that the US computer manufacturers’ contribution to GDP increased to 15%. Let’s say that US GDP therefore was growing at 4-5% per year. Everybody is happy. Years later it is discovered that instead of shipping boxes full of computers, US computer manufacturers shipped empty boxes. Do we go back and re-adjust GDP, which would have shown that it really was decreasing at 1-2% per year for decades?

  47. 47
    Blurtman says:

    RE: David Losh @ 42 – I wouldn’t brand all Republicans as racists. It is true that Democrats lost the South in large measure with the passage of civil rights legislation in the ’60’s. But the “racist vote” has ping-ponged back and forth between the two parties over the course of US history.

    Much is made of “white” racism, and rightfully so. But as the USA becomes less “white” perhaps the traditional views of racism can be extended to include all races on an equal opportunity basis.

    My definition of a “racist”: Someone who believes in the existence of races.

  48. 48
    pfft says:

    By Scotsman @ 31:

    RE: pfft @ 27

    Well then, you go right ahead and buy those bonds on the bet yields will go lower. I’ll watch from the sidelines and collect my dividends. Give me a call when rates break higher and let me know how badly you got hurt.

    you can buy shorter duration bonds you know and hold them to maturity. you don’t lose anything and you can reinvest in higher yielding bonds.

    people have been screaming higher rates for years. peter schiff said in 2002 that rates would go much higher…

  49. 49
    pfft says:

    By Blurtman @ 34:

    Bye, bye, “Place” Holder. Can we please get rid of this coporatist bozo already?

    “Memo: Holder told of â��Fast and Furiousâ�� as early as July 2010

    Newly-obtained Justice Department documents show that Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. was told about the controversial â��Fast and Furiousâ�� weapons investigation as early as July 2010, contradicting testimony he gave before a House committee in May saying he had learned of the operation just weeks earlier.”

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/oct/4/memo-holder-told-fast-and-furious-early-july-2010/?utm_source=RSS_Feed&utm_medium=RSS

    he was told the name of the program not what is was doing.

  50. 50
    pfft says:

    By Scotsman @ 38:

    RE: pfft @ 37

    I’m glad you know that- but what’s your point? A bill has to pass both houses. Passage in the senate, along with the president’s support, would put pressure on the house to at least come up with a compromise. But it isn’t going to pass the senate, and it isn’t going to pass the house. It’s just going to make Obama seem foolish.

    actually they are close to getting the bill through the Senate. it’s a farce the republicans don’t support it so they can’t complain. it’s not like if it passes the Senate the House will take it up.

  51. 51
    David Losh says:

    RE: Blurtman @ 47

    People of color are extremely racist, and class conscious. It’s a part of most cultures.

    Only white people want to tell the world to be color blind. That is a part of the white is right mentality. If only every one in the world would do things the way we do them, then, and only then, will the world be set on the right course of actions.

    It’s just another talking point of the white supremacy movement, globally. Here in the United States we drag out the Constitution to make it all sound legitimate, but reality is much different.

    As far a Democrats go, they are some of the worst racists. The difference is that people of color are allowed at that table. They don’t get a say, but they are at the table to be talked about.

  52. 52
    David Losh says:

    RE: Blurtman @ 47

    Wait a minute, How could you deny the existence of races?

    Africa is the mother of all civilization. The Vandals swooped down from the North where there is no doubt there was a lot of inner breeding going on. In England it is still referred to as Blue Bloods. In wars for a thousand years you knew the enemy by the color of the skin. It wasn’t until rape became a tool of the English that there was any interjection of mixed race.

    Even here in the United State, as in the North, like Canada, there is still a great separation of the races. In Mexico, and South America the blood lines can either be traced back to Spain, or Indian tribes. The big difference is that Spaniards were already of mixed race.

    We fight wars, like Iraq, or Viet Nam, all the time based on race. Come on.

  53. 53
    Blurtman says:

    RE: David Losh @ 52 – Race is a human construct. I am not saying you and a lot of people don’t believe in it, just that is is an idea. Here is an example – “Hispanic” – a category created by the Nixon adminstration. Before Nixon, I guess these folks did not exist. “Latino” – Are Italians “Latinos”, as afterall, the Romans used to speak Latin. What is an “octaroon”, or has that one been retired? Is it no longer “real?” Just ideas, not that they are not powerful.

  54. 54
    Blurtman says:

    RE: David Losh @ 51 – “Only white people want to tell the world to be color blind.” I kind of doubt that. I also doubt that you can accurately define what “white” is.

  55. 55
    Voight-kampff says:

    RE: David Losh @ 45
    I understand your comment just fine.
    It’s the content I find confusing.
    So if you disagree with obamas policies you are a racist?
    The republicans would have stopped any democratic president at every turn as a result of such A politically divided congress and country, which I don’t believe has a race component( at least not a large enough one to matter).
    Sure, some repubs and dems are racist, that has been and will always be the case.
    My opinion is that it is not as pervasive as you seem to think.

  56. 56
    David Losh says:

    RE: Blurtman @ 53

    Hispanic denotes Spanish descent, Latino is a Western term for people from Latin America. That is a big difference. Of more interest is that the number of people of Hispanic descent claimed white as a race in this last Census. We have a limited set of race catagories.

    Politically speaking there were many more Hispanics in this country until the English pushed across the country.

  57. 57
    David Losh says:

    RE: Blurtman @ 54

    I define white as European, up to, but excluding, Spain, Greece, Italy, and any place where the dominate gene pool took over in that culture.

  58. 58
    David Losh says:

    RE: Voight-kampff @ 55

    And my opinion is that this President has shown great leadership.

    I agree that he has been abandoned by the Democrats. Obama has been dismissed until the next act of extrodinary courage he displays, then gets no support, or recognition.

    The reason I inerject race into the debate is because, in my opinion, had a Clinton presented the Health Care Reform Act there would have been much more support within the Democratic Party. Had Clinton turned the tide on a down ward spiral of economic collapse there would have been more credit given.

    The fact we have a silent Democratic leadership tells me it is a race issue, because I don’t see anything else.

    The Republicans have not, have not pointed to anything this President has done, or not done, in the performance of his duties on an international stage. The only refrain the Republicans have is that we need to get rid of this guy.

    Race came up in the debates by the Cain? guy, pizza guy?. He said that the United States could elect a Black President, well we already did, and he’s doing a great job.

    Cain should support this President, but he has his own agenda of making as much money as he can for his family. I don’t slight him for that, but have a huge problem with what he says.

    I just noticed in the debates the Republicans put Cain front, and center even though he is a stage 4 cancer survivor with 5 years of clean testing. He is unelectable, so why is he there?

    When it comes down to it most things have a racial issue involved. I don’t see how denying that is such a noble cause.

  59. 59
    pfft says:

    By Blurtman @ 53:

    RE: David Losh @ 52 – Race is a human construct. I am not saying you and a lot of people don’t believe in it, just that is is an idea. Here is an example – “Hispanic” – a category created by the Nixon adminstration. Before Nixon, I guess these folks did not exist. “Latino” – Are Italians “Latinos”, as afterall, the Romans used to speak Latin. What is an “octaroon”, or has that one been retired? Is it no longer “real?” Just ideas, not that they are not powerful.

    ugh.

  60. 60
    pfft says:

    let’s hope that occupy wall street finally gets politicians to move towards progressive policies!

    they were so quick to help the banks but everyone else seems to be on their own since obama pivoted to the deficit. his jobs act shows he finally gets it. hopefully these protests will will wake up the politicians.

  61. 61
    Blurtman says:

    RE: David Losh @ 56 – You are quite imprecise, and in fact, incorrect. “Spanish” means of Spanish descent. “Hispanic” was coined by the Nixon administration and as you have difficulty describing what it means, it is not surprising, as it is a made up term.

    I refer you to the essays of Richard Rodriguez, an occasional contributor to the PBS Newshour. http://www.pbs.org/newshour/essays/june97/rodriguez_6-18.html

    “It was Richard Nixon’s administration that came up with the notion of the Hispanic. In 1973, federal bureaucrats divided the nation’s population into five: Native American/Eskimo; Asian/Pacific Islander; White; Black; Hispanic. Nearly 25 years later we see and use the word “Hispanic” routinely. I say I am Hispanic. I tell you I am standing on a rundown corner of downtown Los Angeles, the largest Hispanic city in the United States, and look, look at the Hispanic faces. But what do you look for when you expect to see a Hispanic face? In fact, there is no such thing as a Hispanic race. ”

    Even you cannot accurately describe what is what as these are made up categories which are quite full of holes. You may know that in several “Latin American” countries, the populations are about 90% European. Argentina comes to mind as a perfect example. Yet even Rodriguez would state that folks from Argentina would refer to themselves as “Hispanic.”

    If we define a “race” as having adopted some of the cultural attributes of a conquering nation, than the Irish and North American native Americns and even folks from India are of the same “race.”

  62. 62
    David Losh says:

    RE: Blurtman @ 61

    I read all the Census definitions since you brought it up.

    It has nothing to do with any thing. Yes we can all be white Hispanic, so what?

    The Census only has four races, but what is interesting is that American Indian isn’t one of them.

    What I also find interesting is that in the Constitution, that the Libertarins carry around, it says all men are created equal, but according to our governmental history Blacks have more rights than those people we conquered.

    My point is that the Republican Party, along with the Tea Party, has shown a racial motive for getting rid of Obama. Cain is most assured a racist, and I am disappointed in Obama’s speach to the Black Caucus.

    Rush Limbaugh did the same thing today by politicizing race. Just a second let me get that for you:

    “Harvard Professor Henry Louis Gates? “He’s a racist,” Mr. Limbaugh said. “He’s an angry racist.” Sonja Sotomayor? “She’s a bigot. She’s a racist,” Mr. Limbaugh said. “How can a president nominate such a candidate? And how can a party get behind such a candidate? That’s what would be asked if somebody were foolish enough to nominate David Duke or pick somebody even less offensive.”

    President Obama? He’s “the biggest reverse racist in history.” On another occasion: “Just as he is ACORN, just as he is Van Jones, he is racism.”On a third: “How do you get promoted in a Barack Obama administration? By hating white people.” So implicitly Mr. Limbaugh is labeling multiple figures within the administration as racists too.”

    For whatever reason this past week race became a focal point in the Republican campaign.

  63. 63
    Voight-kampff says:

    By David Losh @ 58:

    RE: Voight-kampff @ 55

    When it comes down to it most things have a racial issue involved. I don’t see how denying that is such a noble cause.

    Pointing out perceived bias isnt noble either, nor constructive… and nobility isnt the issue. Crying out racism simply isn’t effective whether it is present or not if you do it all the time, or to generally. I’m not advocating sticking your head in the sand, but If I was debating with 50 republicans( and let’s say 50% are outright racist), I don’t believe that pointing out their bias would help my cause whatever it may be. My cause (political or otherwise) would have to stand on it’s own merits. That is the only way to debate or persuade the fair minded… You might even persuade a racist or two :-)
    I don’t believe we live in some post racial utopia, but your comments (and many other folks on the left )painting the entire republican party as white supremacists doesnt do anything but dilute the word “racism”. In other words, play the “race card” with extreme caution, as the real tragedy would be seeing it reduced to crying wolf.

  64. 64
    David Losh says:

    RE: Voight-kampff @ 63

    My comments are directed to what is going on today, in the Republican Party.

    My issue, my cause, over the week end was gun rights. The fast and furious debate took some turns that I didn’t expect. It has to do with Eric Holder. He denied knowing about an obscure ATF investigation that has been going on for decades. In Bush’s time it was “Wide Reciever.”

    I don’t usually pay any attention, but found it strange that a conservative, on the other side of my debate was adamant that Holder should have known. Well, no, he doesn’t need to.

    Then Blurtman brought it up.

    I started thinking racism when I saw the Republican debate with the off the wall comments Cain made, like putting the oil companies in charge of the EPA. Today he was chastising the Wall Street Protesters, he got his so every body should be able to get thiers with hard work, and stick to itness.

    He advocates, and spouts the white line. If you do it the white way, you to can achieve his level of success.

    What I really question is that there is no agenda that the Republican Party has. You’re not presenting any. The entire Republican campaign has come down to a wink, and a nod, that if we get the black guy out of there we will be able to set things right.

    I support the Black Panther Movement, and the New Black Panther Movement. I support all empowerment of the oppressed in this country. Many people are oppressed, jailed, beaten, and robbed in this country every day. Blacks are continually terrorized in this great nation unless they take the path of the Herman Cains.

    Actually this is just an observation. Maybe the white supremacy statement was a little strong, but I really don’t think so.

  65. 65
    Voight-kampff says:

    RE: David Losh @ 64

    I would agree that republicans haven’t offered much in the way of ideas except for “NO”.
    I don’t know if I would call going the Herman Cain way “the white way”, but I would say anyone who was lucky enough to be born in the USA can with very very hard work follow a route similar to his regardless of their color, religion, politics, even socioeconomic status. If that is a “white way” or “blue way” or whatever, I’d recommend it to everyone. Even if you fail here, ours is a system that will help pay to get you up off the ground, dust you off, absolve your debt and give you another go at it. Simply amazing.
    Being born here IS like winning the lottery (to paraphrase Warren Buffet )
    Yet for some it is still not enough… Sad.

  66. 66
    Blurtman says:

    RE: David Losh @ 62 – I am certainly not going to defend nutjob entertainers Limbaugh and Hannity. Sotomayor came from a working class/poor background, and it is admirable that she was able to work her way up and out. But she has misused the concept of race to advance her career. I would say she is a good racist versus the KKK type bad racist. But let’s try this: “Second, I would hope that a wise European American woman with the richness of her experiences would more often than not reach a better conclusion than a black male who hasn’t lived that life.”

  67. 67

    By Voight-kampff @ 65:

    I would agree that republicans haven’t offered much in the way of ideas except for “NO”..

    The same was true of the Democrats during much of GWB’s term. Well it was similar, except they couldn’t even muster no. They were the party of no ideas at the time.

    You often see the parties behaving like the other did when their party is out of office. The best example of that is war issues. Whichever party holds the White House is more hawkish when they hold it than when they don’t (although the Rs tend to be more hawkish overall).

  68. 68
    Blurtman says:

    Obama, March 19, 2009, barely three months into his term as the newly elected President:

    “MR. LENO: I just read today about Merrill Lynch. They handed out $3.6 billion — it’s not even million anymore, it’s billions in bonuses. I know it would make me feel good — shouldn’t somebody go to jail?

    (Laughter and applause.) I say that because I watch those people in New York, even people who had lost everything — when Bernard Madoff went to jail, at least they felt they got something.

    MR. OBAMA: Right. They got some satisfaction. Here’s the dirty little secret, though. Most of the stuff that got us into trouble was perfectly legal. And that is a sign of how much we’ve got to change our laws — right?”

    How would Obama know in March, 2009, without any investigation at all, that most of the stuff that Wall Street did was legal? And this is basically the same message that Obama delivered today in his jobs bill press conference, in response to a question by Jake Tapper as to why there are no prosecutions.

    So who had coached him to deliver this message less than three months into his term – Rubin?

    Obama is truly a pathetic fraud.

  69. 69

    RE: Blurtman @ 68 – I think what AIG did was probably perfectly legal. It was also perfectly stupid, but stupid isn’t a crime.

  70. 70
    Blurtman says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 69 – AIG is only one facet of the activities that caused the financial collapse. And OK, you have your opinion about AIG. A lot of folks have an opinion. As the leader of a country, how can you say that no crimes were committed 2.5 months into your first term as president without conducting a formal investigation? Considering the gravity of what happened, that is the least that any competent person would do.

  71. 71

    RE: Blurtman @ 70 – I agree AIG was only a part of it. And I might even add that it’s conceivable that there was activity after the fact in the form of non-disclosure which might have violated some criminal securities law. I’m just saying that the activity that brought the company down was likely just risky to the point of being stupid, and not criminal.

    As to President Obama, I’d go maybe a bit further than you and say it was inappropriate for him to comment on what was undoubtedly ongoing investigations.

  72. 72
    David Losh says:

    RE: Voight-kampff @ 65

    I agree it is like winning the lottery. It’s a conversation I have every day. Anything is possible in the United States.

    You’re forgetting though that this country was founded on a Revolution. It was between the English, here, and the English there. There was a document that preceded the Constitution called the Declaration of Independence. This is where some of my conservative brothers and I diverge.

    “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.”

    These guys, with the Constitution were, unfortunate for them, standing on some one else’s land. If I came into your house and sat down, drew up some laws, and then had fifty of my brethren come live with me, would that make your house mine? Of course not.

    Let’s get past that to the issue of slaves.

    The Declaration of Independence was also referred back to about the emancipation of slaves. The problem was that slaves left the household with nothing. Slaves had no estates.
    The Emancipation Proclamation was signed in 1863, after the California Gold Rush of 1848-1859. Blacks, brought to this country against their will, were turned loose with nothing. All the good stuff was already taken.

    The English had already claimed the majority of the land, and natural resources. They were next intent of ridding this new country of the Spanish, and then they would be in complete physical, and economic control. As an aside the New English of the United States also secured holdings of the Spanish which brought up the topic of expansionism.

    Telling me that Blacks, in this country, had an economic chance of equality is against all that history has to say about the subject.

    I heard what you said about how the Republicans would fight any Democrat, but this Democrat has doggedly advanced the Democrat agenda according to the Constitution of the United States. There’s nothing to be said about that, or against him. ABM has followed the Constitution. Obama has protected our interests abroad, and domestically.

    Now the very fact the Republicans trotted out a guy like Cain shows the racism. Cain is unelectable. He had stage 4 cancer 5 years ago, but nothing was said until during the debate in September. He’s not a serious candidate. I like what he said about his 9 9 9 tax approach, but other than that he hasn’t said anything.

    OK, I now know more about Cain, and the Republican candidates than I really care to.

  73. 73
    David Losh says:

    RE: Blurtman @ 68

    I can tell you for a fact, and could have without seeing any documents, that what they did was legal.

    You just keep missing the point about how screwed up this all is. It needs to be changed legislatively. The laws that allowed this cross collateralizing of phantom equity need to be changed.

  74. 74
    Blurtman says:

    RE: David Losh @ 73 – William K. Black, Joseph Stiglitz, Robert Shiller, James Galbraith, and many others would disagree with you.

    Frank Rich in the New Yorker:

    “What haunts the Obama administration is what still haunts the country: the stunning lack of accountability for the greed and misdeeds that brought America to its gravest financial crisis since the Great Depression. There has been no legal, moral, or financial reckoning for the most powerful wrongdoers. Nor have there been meaningful reforms that might prevent a repeat catastrophe. Time may heal most wounds, but not these. Chronic unemployment remains a constant, painful reminder of the havoc inflicted on the bust’s innocent victims. As the ghost of Hamlet’s father might have it, America will be stalked by its foul and unresolved crimes until they “are burnt and purged away.”

    After the 1929 crash, and thanks in part to the legendary Ferdinand Pecora’s fierce thirties Senate hearings, America gained a Securities and Exchange Commission, the Public Utility Holding Company Act, and the Glass-Steagall Act to forestall a rerun. After the savings-and-loan debacle of the eighties, some 800 miscreants went to jail. But those who ran the central financial institutions of our fiasco escaped culpability (as did most of the institutions). As the indefatigable Matt Taibbi has tabulated, law enforcement on Obama’s watch rounded up 393,000 illegal immigrants last year and zero bankers. The Justice Department’s bally­hooed Operation Broken Trust has broken still more trust by chasing mainly low-echelon, one-off Madoff wannabes.”

    http://nymag.com/print/?/news/frank-rich/obama-economy/presidents-failure/

  75. 75
    Blurtman says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 71 – Do you have a link describing these undoubtable investigations?

  76. 76
    Voight-kampff says:

    By David Losh @ 72:

    RE: Voight-kampff @ 65

    Telling me that Blacks, in this country, had an economic chance of equality is against all that history has to say…

    I like what he said about his 9 9 9 tax approach, but other than that he hasn’t said anything.

    I didn’t say anything about equality decades ago. Currently anyone here in the US( Other than trust fund kids and old money) of any background, race, or status has the same ability to rise to a higher station in life. Of course there are many variables and obstacles ie: schools, health problems etc, those can affect anyone adversely, and make it harder, but it can and IS still done. Some may have more obstacles than others… Such is life.
    You also seem to freely admit not really knowing anything about Herman Cain, I’m not even sure you knew his name, and yet you are saying he was “trotted out by the republicans” and he has nothing to say but his 999 plan.
    I’m not a supporter of his or any rep. candidate, but he decided to run on his own, and has been trying to break into politics since 1994 when he debated Clinton on healthcare at a town hall meeting. He was Born in Memphis, Tenn, He is the son of a chauffeur and a maid. He attended historically black Morehouse College, earned a master’s degree from Purdue University and worked as a mathematician for the Navy before scaling the corporate ladder. He worked at Coca-Cola, Pillsbury and Burger King, then the failing Godfather’s Pizza franchise. Why do you say he is unelectable? (I’m not trying to be sarcastic, I am sincerely asking)
    And why is his running showing republican racism?
    Maybe I’m missing something.

  77. 77

    By Blurtman @ 75:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 71 – Do you have a link describing these undoubtable investigations?

    Here’s a fairly recent one: http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/09/21/us-crime-financial-idUSTRE78K70S20110921

    There have been others periodically.

  78. 78
    David Losh says:

    RE: Voight-kampff @ 76

    You are missing everything.

    I engage in discussions about conservative issues all the time. I was a great supporter of Ronald Reagan. Race comes and goes from the conservative topics as an after thought to the core issues.

    Politics, I think we can agree, has become a game of strategy. I’ll wager most people didn’t know who Herman Cain was until last week, or maybe after the September 22nd debate. He moved up in a lot of polls. I don’t know the focus of those polls, but I do know, now, That Mr. Cain had stage 4 cancer, five years ago. That’s what makes him unelectable. We can’t elect a cancer survivor as President.

    My focus on race came with the Eric Holder Fast, and Furious “investigation” by Republicans. Why now? Why this issue? It could be construed as a guns rights issue. Republicans, more to the point right thinking Republicans, have no business bringing this up unless they know the outcome. The focus became that Eric Holder lied to Congress. Eric Holder, evidently is bad because he has a black activist agenda. His black activist agenda, in a broader sense is also connected to Barrack Obama.

    Enter now Herman Cain. I’m watching conservative TV, and listening to conservative radio and in the span of a week, boom, there’s Herman. That’s what I mean by trotted out.

    Where I get to white supremacy is the economics, the economy, global economy. It seems to me that, without a plan, it’s just understood that if we get in one of those other candidates of the Republican party we can get back to business as usual. Republicans don’t see the problems that were created while George Bush, in concert with the Europeans, siphoned off as much money as they could, because that again is white people business.

    Do you see the economy as a problem? I mean really, what is the problem?

    Now Obama could be jumping around in the European economic crisis, or he could concentrate on our number one threat, which is being attacked, again, by terrorists. Those terrorist, by the way, seem to be concentrated in Northern Africa. They seem to be surrounding Israel. Obama seems to be doing pretty darn good there at advancing our national Interests in that region.

    The Republicans, however, want us to get back, and focus the government on doing more to help business. Some how the government needs to stop meddling in business, but they should be doing more to help business.

    Bottom line, Obama, in a global perspective, is doing all the right things. I mean he is advancing the conservative agenda. If Obama were white he would be getting a lot more support than he is, both from Democrats, and Republicans. Republicans are however, in my opinion, using the fact he is black as a tool against him, and most definitely catering to the white supremacist under current of the people of the United States.

  79. 79
    Voight-kampff says:

    I am only responding to direct quotes from you, so am I missing everything because I disagree?
    I agree with much of what you say ie: bush’s economic mess and obama gets the blame. I agree he gets less credit than deserved for being more aggressive than bush in the terrorism arena, or in any other area…but where you see racial conspiracies, I see politics as usual. Where you see the right wing dogging his every move because he’s black, I see a very divided country. What you attribute to race, I say has much more to do with the 24hr news cycle/Internet/talk radio conflict machine, all of which all thrive and only get paid on sensationalism and conflict. A 24 news cycle that was built and polished on occasions like 9/11, but when there is no 9/11 what are they all to do? They try to create a 9/11 out of ever little freaking thing that happens.
    I don’t see any agendas other than people trying to make money.
    I just dont see the well oiled right wing race agenda you do…
    But Maybe I’m wrong.

  80. 80
    David Losh says:

    I’ve been wrong before, and may be wrong again. This may be just a news cycle like Hurricane Katrina, or BP oil spill, on a smaller scale. OK, I got that.

    Unfortunately this particular news cycle came at the time of the Obama Jobs Bill. That jobs Bill was the most brilliant move that I have seen a President execute, since Reagan.

    The Constitution provides for the President to address Congress on the State of the Union. That’s not just an obligation, as most Presidents use it, it’s a duty. Did you see Boehner during that address? That guy was trapped, cornered, and caged. He didn’t know what to do. He’s been losing ground ever since.

    I think I’m right. I do see racism in a lot of what’s going on in the global economy. Nationally I think we are always talking about white people business. What started as a class warfare out cry has boiled down to what white people get to keep from what they stole in the past twenty years. Yes we need to raise taxes, and we need to go after the people who took advantage of a system that is woefully broken.

    Our economic system, the same as the system that is left over from the monarchies of Europe, is heavily weighted toward those in economic power.

    The people in power are white. Both here, and in Europe the people in economic power are white. When we talk economy, right now, we are talking about white people, in charge, directing what has become a power struggle. There’s plenty of money in the system, it’s being witheld by the private sector, and we have one guy who seems to be talking to that point. That guy happens to be black.

    God bless him.

  81. 81
    pfft says:

    By Blurtman @ 66:

    RE: David Losh @ 62 – I am certainly not going to defend nutjob entertainers Limbaugh and Hannity. Sotomayor came from a working class/poor background, and it is admirable that she was able to work her way up and out. But she has misused the concept of race to advance her career.

    how?

  82. 82
    Voight-kampff says:

    By David Losh @ 80:

    God bless him.

    We definitely agree on that!
    Amen.

  83. 83
    Blurtman says:

    RE: pfft @ 81 – Anthony Ribera, the former San Francisco chief of police, hit a bump in the road in his first mayoral campaign when it was disclosed that he had attended a Golden Gate University graduate program on a minority scholarship. As it turns out, he is a European American. He had built a career marketing himself as a disadvantaged minority.

  84. 84
    Scotsman says:

    RE: David Losh @ 78

    “Bottom line, Obama, in a global perspective, is doing all the right things. I mean he is advancing the conservative agenda. If Obama were white he would be getting a lot more support than he is, both from Democrats, and Republicans. Republicans are however, in my opinion, using the fact he is black as a tool against him, and most definitely catering to the white supremacist under current of the people of the United States.”

    From time to time in the past you’ve hit on some good ideas. Now I’m pretty sure you’re on crack. I don’t think even I could pull that kind of sh$t out of my azz, and I can be one dark and sarcastic soul when I’m in a foul mood. And this current economy and the jokers controlling it have put me in a pretty foul mood for a while now. . .

    Racism is largely a relic dragged up from time to time, along with Hitler analogies, by those who have nothing substantive left to say.

  85. 85

    RE: Scotsman @ 84 – I would agree with you on this. The intense focus on race is truly bizarre.

  86. 86
  87. 87
    David Losh says:

    RE: Scotsman @ 84

    I agree that is exactly what the Republican Party has resorted to. Fear mongering is all they have left.

    Let me get today’s paper, page 2 of the Seattle Times. Perry backer: LDS Romney is in a ‘cult,’ not a Christian. That’s the head line. Come on, this goes way beyond an abortion issue diversion, or birth certificate claim. This is appealing to the far right at the core of Christian values.

    White people in America always, want to claim racism is a dead issue. They claim that because they are white. White people want to believe they have solved the race issue, laid it to rest because…. we did what? Educate me. What great change, what epiphany happened that all of a sudden since 1962, race became a fading memory?

    I’m going to say again that the economy is broken because the private sector stole money. The money is in the system. All of Europe, China, and the United States have run up huge debts combating what the private sector has sucked out of the system and has set aside, for themselves.

    Blaming Obama has no basis in reality. If it were just him, just the United States, then maybe your “facts” would have some bearing, but it’s global.

    Obama has advanced a highly conservative agenda. I can’t find any fault with it, the same as I am sure no other right thinking conservative can.

    I agree with Voight-kampff, when I think about it, Clinton was also vilified for advancing Reagan’s economic policies. That was a time when conservatives should have thrown support behind him, but he truly had a liberal agenda. At the same time fiscal conservatives should have been more vocal during the Bush administration. They were silent, only getting riled up now.

    I’m sorry, but race is the only thing left to conclude as the target for the Republican Party.

    If Republicans actually cared about America they would seize the opportunities we have today, but they don’t care.

  88. 88

    By David Losh @ 87:

    Let me get today’s paper, page 2 of the Seattle Times. Perry backer: LDS Romney is in a ‘cult,’ not a Christian. That’s the head line. Come on, this goes way beyond an abortion issue diversion, or birth certificate claim. This is appealing to the far right at the core of Christian values..

    You realize that’s the story the left is trying other members of the left about the right? You fell for it.

    One person made those comments. The candidate has renounced them. But you think that’s what all Republicans think because someone who is almost certainly a Democrat wrote that up in an article?

    BTW, do I need to bring up the stories about President Obama’s former Pastor, and the things he said? Do you think those statements appeal to all Democrats?

  89. 89
    David Losh says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 88

    That story was “leaked” by a Republican for the benefit of the liberal press.

    I’m well aware of all the stories about Obama and his radical agenda.

  90. 90
    David Losh says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 86

    I was going to leave this alone, but it is very much to the point of where the campaign against Obama is headed. This one of those cute wink, wink, nod, nod kind of things that makes light of the very essence of what the radical right believes deeply.

    I’m still thinking that what started as some random comments about class warfare will degenerate into racial tensions by the Republicans. I just think the ignorance of the Party is that inbred.

  91. 91
    Scotsman says:

    Only racists even see race these days David. Who are you, and what are you saying????

  92. 92
    Voight-kampff says:

    By David Losh @ 87:

    RE: Scotsman @ 84

    ? Educate me. What great change, what epiphany happened that all of a sudden since 1962, race became a fading memory?

    For starters, how about the fact that we elected a black democrat as president of the united states, or the fact that a black republican is a front runner now?

  93. 93
    David Losh says:

    RE: Scotsman @ 91

    Baloney, that is the weakest argument ever conceived.

  94. 94
    David Losh says:

    RE: Voight-kampff @ 92

    What I think is that we did elect a black President.

    What I suspect is that no one thought he would be as effective as he is. My opinion is that the fear, and uncertainty that Paul Ryan has been talking about associated with “class warfare” has to do with “what happens if this guy gets elected to a second term?”

    What I’m saying is the Republican Party is running scared.

    They do have a black candidate that you have pointed me toward. That candidate is talking about “class warfare” also. He’s a dangerous man, and in my opinion twice as radical as Obama. If Cain gets the nomination I’ll vote for him. Heck yes, if any one wanted to see change, Herman would be your man.

    Again, you might be right. This may all be a big media move to cover for the Perry hunting lodge. Whatever it is it’s out there, and I find it hard believe I’m the only one to see it.

    The fact race can’t be discussed is very good indication that this is a deep seeded issue. I actually do talk this way. Race gets discussed daily in most parts of the globe, and even in this country. Americans are looked at as one of the most racist people. We are a part of the European expansionism. Our election of a black President is the first indication that the civil rights movement had any meaning. Just because we pass laws doesn’t change the way people think.

  95. 95
    Scotsman says:

    RE: David Losh @ 93

    Nonsense- the 1960’s and your concept of racism is three generations old. It’s 2011, and you haven’t kept up. Racism today is better discribed as just another excuse to cover personal failures, or preference bias along the lines of I don’t like fat people, or redheads are always tempermental, etc. We have black billionaires, millionaires by the thousands, senators, congressmen and women, why- even a president. And the fact that the president isn’t very good has nothing to do with what color he is. Unless, that is, you can’t come up with any other viable excuses in your attempts to justify the very definition of incompetent.

  96. 96
    Blurtman says:

    We are the 99% website:

    http://wearethe99percent.tumblr.com/

    A series of personal vingettes of who these folks are.

  97. 97
    David Losh says:

    RE: Scotsman @ 95

    That’s easy. Obama’s jobs bill just got paid for with a tax hike on the very wealthy, let’s just move it up to the very, very wealthy.

    This guy threw a completely workable plan into the ring, and there seems to be a lot of confusion about that.

    Even more to the point is our war on terror. Obama, quietly, without a weekly grand standing, or invocation of 9/11, began killing militants. Obama’s war sparked something of a shift in the Middle East. I’ll address Israel if you really want to, but let’s move on.

    The BP oil spill was another brilliant move by a President of the United States. He had the CEO come to his office to explain himself. He laid the blame where it should, and had the people responsible, and best equipped, deal with the problem they created.

    You don’t like ObamaCare, but it’s done. He did something Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush, couldn’t do, couldn’t get legislated.

    He did give money to banks the same as Germany, Belgium, England, France, China, Japan, and I really don’t know how many others. The fact you can’t see the problem is the financial markets, as they stand, is a discussion for another time.

    Obama has made more overtures to Republicans than any other president I can remember who have reached across the aisle. He has preformed flawlessly and within all conservative guide lines.

    You don’t like Solyndra, but that General Motors thing seems to be working out.

    If you listen to Obama’s talking points, early on in his Presidency, he wants to go after financial reforms. It’s not just banks, it’s the way the entire market place functions. He’s moved that to the back burner in favor of other pressing economic matters, like unemployment.

    He has back pedaled a lot. He should go after the people who stole our money, and are now busy trying to hide it. The private sector creates jobs, and they have plenty of money to do that. The wealthy in this country want to be rid of Obama out of fear that he will come after them in a second term, like he should.

    Obama’s brilliant. He has said, and done all of the right things, and I mean all of a conservative agenda. Bush paid the down payment on stimulus, Obama was the poor schmuck who finished making the monthlies.

    Now if you want to talk about the debt, well. yes, Obama could have , and should have crashed the financial markets by refusing to sign off on the recommended stimulus. Politically he could have advanced the Democratic Party, and put full blame on to Bush. Obama took the high road, and engaged us in the global crisis.

    You seem to forget, the way most people do, that Europe is a socialist system, China is communist. Yeah, they already have the political structure to infuse cash as they see fit. We need to work the system we have. Right now it seems to be working well.

  98. 98
    pfft says:

    By Blurtman @ 83:

    RE: pfft @ 81 – Anthony Ribera, the former San Francisco chief of police, hit a bump in the road in his first mayoral campaign when it was disclosed that he had attended a Golden Gate University graduate program on a minority scholarship. As it turns out, he is a European American. He had built a career marketing himself as a disadvantaged minority.

    if sotomayor changed her name to Ribera that would matter. not following you.

  99. 99
    pfft says:

    By Scotsman @ 84:

    RE: David Losh @ 78
    Racism is largely a relic dragged up from time to time, along with Hitler analogies, by those who have nothing substantive left to say.

    oh gold please tell me you didn’t write this. you can’t be that naive.

  100. 100
    pfft says:

    By Scotsman @ 95:

    RE: David Losh @ 93

    Nonsense- the 1960’s and your concept of racism is three generations old. It’s 2011, and you haven’t kept up. Racism today is better discribed as just another excuse to cover personal failures, or preference bias along the lines of I don’t like fat people, or redheads are always tempermental, etc. We have black billionaires, millionaires by the thousands, senators, congressmen and women, why- even a president. And the fact that the president isn’t very good has nothing to do with what color he is. Unless, that is, you can’t come up with any other viable excuses in your attempts to justify the very definition of incompetent.

    oh boy. did I just read that?

  101. 101
    Blurtman says:

    RE: pfft @ 98 – You are being disingenuous. Look up the racial demographics of Puerto Rico.

  102. 102

    By David Losh @ 94:

    What I suspect is that no one thought he would be as effective as he is.

    Stop it! You’re killing me.

    How much political gridlock do you think people were expecting with President Obama as President? Could they really have been expecting it to be worse?

    How long do you think people were expecting miserable economic conditions to persist. (Not that people weren’t being unrealistic, I’m just asking what you think they were expecting.)

    How many US troops do you think people thought would be in Afghanistan right now?

  103. 103
    David Losh says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 102

    The political grid lock is exactly what we are discussing.

    Let’s not forget the farce of the Tea Party. That is a movement that the Republicans should have avoided, but they wanted to play politics with health care. It makes no difference now, they are stuck with them.

    Let’s talk about the war in Iraq, and Afghanistan, I want to also throw in Guantanamo Bay. After Obama took office he set a tone in his address to the Muslim People on Arab Television: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-4754691-503544.html http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31105705/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/t/arab-world-sees-positive-shift-obama-speech/

    An American President addressed the Muslim community. First time that’s ever happened. First time any one has addressed the Muslim community.

    As recently as May Obama once again addressed the American people about the Arab Spring, Israel, and the changes in democratic structures of Egypt, and Tunisia. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/19/obama-middle-east-speech-_n_864153.html

    When revolution came to Libya, and Gadhafi threatened retaliation, Obama stepped in then turned operations over to NATO.

    Geez, Health Care, and the Middle East. From my perspective that is a lot to accomplish. How long has the United States mucked around in Northern Africa? Obama, in three short years has brought a real change in Middle East policy.

    No one saw that one coming.

    Can we leave Iraq? absolutely. Can we leave Afghanistan, and close Guantanamo? sure, and we can do that thanks to Obama making it all worth while. We have confirmed kills, and wins in all arenas. We have won this war, and Obama did it with dignity.

    In the mean time, as an after thought, maybe it should have been a focus, is the economy that our private sector destroyed over the course of twenty years. Actually we can go back to Reagan, but I like that guy.

    Low interest rates, and deregulation allowed for a series of bubbles which created wealth in pockets of the global economy. Governments went along with the promise of new tax revenue. If you just puzzle it out for two minutes you can see that there is nothing the government can do, or should be doing, other than taking care of it’s own business.

    There’s a proposal on the table. Republicans should grab it, and attempt to do something, or anything.

    Now I’m curious about all that budget talk Paul Ryan keeps extolling that we don’t know anything about. It seems the Republican party has put forth a mountain of positive change for the American People, but they are holding it back. Maybe if we elect more of the Tea Party, then we’ll be blessed with some wisdom, other than we need to get rid of ObamaCare.

  104. 104
    Blurtman says:

    Great story, on one of the best blogs:

    http://jessescrossroadscafe.blogspot.com/2011/10/missteps-to-mayhem-inside-financial.html

    A few excerpts:

    “The intense lobbying and buying of political power that set the financial bubble in motion in the 1990’s under Clinton led by team Greenspan-Rubin-Summers is still underway. Those who are sitting on large piles of loot obviously wish to keep it, and shift the blame and the pain to others. It will be a divisive time until this is resolved.”

    “We need better leaders, but frankly this isn’t going to happen. A problem cannot be solved if it is never acknowledged.

    Taxes need to be raised, spending needs to be cut, and loopholes need to be shut if we are to have any hope of returning to a stable base. Home ownership should not be a policy of the U.S. government. The banking system needs substantial reform and bank breakups. Glass–Steagall needs a second run in a strong form. And 22.5 million public workers have no business unionizing against the taxpayer. The list of things that won’t happen—but should happen—goes on and on.

    By 2020, interest expense on our national debt could very well exceed $1 trillion. All personal income taxes collected in the U.S. in one year do not total $1 trillion. Our country’s math is scary big, but even scarier is that it simply doesn’t work…”

  105. 105
    pfft says:

    By Blurtman @ 1:

    RE: pfft @ 98 – You are being disingenuous. Look up the racial demographics of Puerto Rico.

    still not following you.

  106. 106
    Blurtman says:

    RE: pfft @ 105 – You’ve got to do a little work here. Your assignment is to research the racial demographics of Puerto Rico.

  107. 107
  108. 108
    Blurtman says:

    RE: David Losh @ 107 – Bingo! Using the commonly practiced racial categories (which I think are all bogus BTW), the majority of Puerto Ricans are white. Blacks are the second largest group. So to answer pfft’s question – as with Anthony Ribera, the former SF, CA chief of police and a Portuguese American who pretended to be a “person of color” to advance his career, we have a US Supreme Court justice, who in a much larger way than Ribera, pretends to be a “person of color” to advance her career. Sotomayor is the queen of false identity politics.

  109. 109
    David Losh says:

    RE: Blurtman @ 108

    Well, yes blacks make up another 12.6% of the population there.

    What you are missing is that whites are a race of privledge. In Europe there is deep seated racism over who is considered white. Pure bred is the term most commonly used. If you are white, you are a person on privledge.

    However, it is generally understood that the people in Spain, Italy, and Greece are of mixed race.

    Now where it gets interesting is in countries like Sicily. There are classes of people denoted by peasants, land owners, and merchants. The more you look African the harder it is to get by.

    No one here in America remembers the Ottoman Empire, the Vandals, the Nazis, Crusades, or Inquisition, but in Europe it is a daily reminder of the by gone days. It’s like visiting the Deep South and hearing stories about the Civil War.

    White Hispanic is no where near white. It’s a term white people want to have so they can better blend.

  110. 110

    Santorium (sp?) the former Senator running for President has an idea that is similar to my repeal of the corporate income tax idea, but more targeted to jobs. No income tax on manufacturing and processing activities.

  111. 111
    Scotsman says:

    “When each component of a system costs more to maintain than it produces in wealth, the sum of those components will run a perpetual deficit. New growth alleviates the near-term problem at the expense of creating a greater long-term disparity.

    Our places need to create value, not destroy it. We have to demand that our cities, towns and neighborhoods produce a positive financial return.

    This will mean completely rethinking how we invest in our communities.”

    http://www.businessinsider.com/suburban-america-ponzi-scheme-case-study-2011-10#

  112. 112
    David Losh says:

    Oh, alright, components of the suburban expansionism used to surround job centers. Holy Cow, you can Kary should get together, and talk about 1970s economic theory.

    Fiat money is the government regulation of all things financial. Are the financial markets under control or just running wild?

    It’s easy. You start building houses, then need goceries, hardware, commercial, doctor, lawyer, and dentist. It becomes a community. When the job center is no longer viable we have government run transit. If you don’t like the suburbs you can live in the city, or that’s how it was in the 1950s, 1960s, then it changed.

    I can run a business from anywhere. Banks can be in a basement room of a mountain bunker, and some are. We don’t need no stinking foot traffic.

    Which brings us back to the Armageddon you are concerned about. Debt is Fiat. I should make a bumper sticker with that. I claim that phrase!!! Don’t any of you try to steal it!!!

    Borrowing at .25% to lend at 4% is today’s suburban planning. Any one can do it, any where, at any time.

  113. 113
    Scotsman says:

    RE: David Losh @ 112

    Yeah, but when the growth stops nobody wants to or needs to borrow at any rate. That’s the problem.

    Debt is fiat- hmmm, might be something there. . .

  114. 114
    David Losh says:

    RE: Scotsman @ 113

    It’s mine.

    Finance is all you ever talk about. It’s just finance. We don’t even have commerce any more.

    Let me use the grocery store as an example. QFC vs. Safeway, vs Fred Meyer vs Wal Mart.

    It’s all the same products, and brands, but the price can be anywhere from reasonable, to cheap, to expensive, but it’s all relative to what? Location?

    Well, Wal Mart rolls into a community, drives out the competition with prices it can absorb from a national sales perspective, then raise prices to what they want.

    Presentation? QFC is the fancy store, Safeway the cheaper store, and Fred Meyer will sell you anything. It’s a planned presentation to match price point.

    Quality? It all comes from the same places, some times same ware houses.

    Your choices are sliced, diced, presented, and marketed into a sales formula that is then crunched into complex financial formulas, that includes taxation.

    When was the last time any of you went into the grocery store with cash that you were paid from your employer? When did any of you use cash to buy anything? OK, let’s leave the guns and gold buyers out of the discussion, but other than you, how many people use cash, or get paid in cash? How many day laborers are reading this blog?

    We all have credit or debit cards. You see very few checks any more. Every step of the way, every transaction, every stroke of the key board, or swipe of the card is recorded for taxation. It’s all high finance, and taxation.

    So your government doesn’t care that they lost the currencies. Banks, lenders, card membership, and the computer now generates complex reports about how much each step of the financial process owes in taxes.

    It’s kind of a no brainer. The governments surrender to finance, and collect the taxes.

    Your debt, because it is all lagged, nothing is real time, is the new Fiat currency.

  115. 115
    pfft says:

    who said that even senate democrats didn’t support the Jobs Bill? 51 democrats voted for it. It would have passed if the obstructionist republicans didn’t want obama to fail.

  116. 116
    pfft says:

    By Blurtman @ 6:

    RE: pfft @ 105 – You’ve got to do a little work here. Your assignment is to research the racial demographics of Puerto Rico.

    my job isn’t to explain what you’re telling me.

  117. 117
    Sweet Pea says:

    This is an interesting set of charts regarding wages and profits, etc. in the U.S., in respect of why people are organizing protests. The chart on lending doesn’t cover a long enough time span, but most others are pretty interesting. Give it a few seconds to load, the view is all on one page.

    http://www.businessinsider.com/what-wall-street-protesters-are-so-angry-about-2011-10?op=1

  118. 118

    By pfft @ 115:

    who said that even senate democrats didn’t support the Jobs Bill? 51 democrats voted for it. It would have passed if the obstructionist republicans didn’t want obama to fail.

    Probably a number of Ds voted for it just because they knew it wouldn’t pass.

    The jobs plan was DOA–Dead on Announcement. A pointless exercise by the President. Well not quite pointless. There was a political point. He appealed to people like you.

    I’ll propose a jobs plan too. Give me all the money in the world and I’ll employ a number of people. That plan has about as much chance of passing as what President Obama proposed.

  119. 119
    pfft says:

    By Kary L. Krismer @ 118:

    By pfft @ 115:

    who said that even senate democrats didn’t support the Jobs Bill? 51 democrats voted for it. It would have passed if the obstructionist republicans didn’t want obama to fail.

    Probably a number of Ds voted for it just because they knew it wouldn’t pass.

    The jobs plan was DOA–Dead on Announcement. A pointless exercise by the President. Well not quite pointless. There was a political point. He appealed to people like you.

    I’ll propose a jobs plan too. Give me all the money in the world and I’ll employ a number of people. That plan has about as much chance of passing as what President Obama proposed.

    only because the republicans don’t want it to pass. it’s basically tax cuts and infrastructure- something republicans have always supported.

  120. 120
    Scotsman says:

    RE: pfft @ 119

    “only because the republicans don’t want it to pass.”

    Oh give it up- you aren’t fooling anybody except yourself, and that’s only because you’re math challenged. The democrats have a clear, consistent majority in congress. They are the ones who can’t pass their own bill. And as Kary says, if a few changed their votes and it got closer, others would suddenly vote no. It was never going to pass, and everyone knew it. Krugman liked it though.

  121. 121

    By pfft @ 119:

    only because the republicans don’t want it to pass. it’s basically tax cuts and infrastructure- something republicans have always supported.

    Do you really believe that, or have you just take to lying like your average politician?

    “Unlike the 2009 legislation, the current plan would be paid for with a 5.6 percent surcharge on income exceeding $1 million. That would be expected to raise about $450 billion over the coming decade.”

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/lawmakers-white-house-regroup-after-senate-scuttles-obama-jobs-plan/2011/10/12/gIQA6KfdeL_story.html

    In addition, it’s really another mini-stimulus plan, which after the 2010 elections both Ds and Rs are unlikely to vote for. That’s why I made the comment that fewer Ds would vote for it if it was close to passing.

    President Obama proposed a plan that he knew from the get-go was a non-starter. Now you have the VP saying that the Rs don’t want to pass anything. It’s all just political theater. The Rs are just as guilty as the Ds, but I’m picking on the Ds right now because Pfft has fallen for their bait.

    To pick on the Rs, this vote will become part of political ads against 50 Ds indicating that they voted for tax increases X times, with X being one greater than what it would have been without this vote.

  122. 122
    David Losh says:

    RE: Sweet Pea @ 117

    Thank you for the charts. They helped me explain what the protests were about.

  123. 123
    David Losh says:

    The Republican canidates had another debate last night loaded with flag waving and Obama bashing. Romney almost had me listening to him, until the end, or toward the end, when it was clear he was muddled.

    Perry looks like something is wrong with him. He seems timid, and unsure. I would say it’s a medical issue. The change is clear from earlier participations he had in the debates. It’s a sudden change.

    Once again I went back to Fox News for a fair and balanced report of the debate, but I guess I have to wait until tonight for that. O’Reilly did have a couple of African American gentleman explain the Wall Street protests to him, and Hannity had Hank Williams Jr speaking incoherently.

    Now I’m really trying here to find some ground for Obama being the bad guy in what has happened to the economy. There is no smoking gun that I have found in the hand of Obama. What I keep seeing is a break down in our way of doing politics.

    As much as capitalism is being discussed as our way of life, I seem to vaguely remember we are a Democracy. I don’t see where capitalism is promoted, or protected by the Constitution. I’d really like some one to explain to me how we made corporate protections the center of our political system.

  124. 124

    By David Losh @ 23:

    As much as capitalism is being discussed as our way of life, I seem to vaguely remember we are a Democracy. I don’t see where capitalism is promoted, or protected by the Constitution. I’d really like some one to explain to me how we made corporate protections the center of our political system.

    Well for one there’s the Interstate Commerce Clause. The founders realized the importance of commerce long ago, and Europe didn’t catch on until late in the 20th Century, even though we gave them a huge clue in a public document.

    Or are you just protesting giving corporations protections? On that there’s really no basis to exclude them. The prior Supreme Court decisions to the contrary in the 20th Century were BS (that’s a complex legal term).

  125. 125

    RE: David Losh @ 23 – Hank Williams Jr. admits that he isn’t that well educated, and it shows.

  126. 126

    Corporate Entities became Just Like Voters, Per the Supreme Court Allows Corporate Funding of Political Campaigns [Jan 2010 Ruling]

    It was a 5-4 vote, with Republicans the 5 and Democrats the 4….IMO, even though the Democrat candidates are corporate stooges too per this allowance, they at least would have put an end to this BS and this issue alone is worth voting Democrat.

  127. 127

    RE: softwarengineer @ 26 – I believe the contrary decision was from the early 20th Century. What makes you think that was the right decision?

    If you think the current decision is wrong, please explain to me why the US Government would not need a warrant to search for corporate documents? Please point to language in the Constitution which would suggest such a result.

  128. 128
    pfft says:

    By Scotsman @ 120:

    RE: pfft @ 119

    “only because the republicans donâ��t want it to pass.”

    Oh give it up- you aren’t fooling anybody except yourself, and that’s only because you’re math challenged. The democrats have a clear, consistent majority in congress. They are the ones who can’t pass their own bill. And as Kary says, if a few changed their votes and it got closer, others would suddenly vote no. It was never going to pass, and everyone knew it. Krugman liked it though.

    “The democrats have a clear, consistent majority in congress.”

    wow. the democrats don’t control the House. They control the Senate but don’t have a filibuster proof majority. the republicans are filibustering anything the Senate dems put up.

    “They are the ones who can’t pass their own bill.”

    nonsense. the democrats had 51 votes for the Jobs Bill.

    ” And as Kary says, if a few changed their votes and it got closer, others would suddenly vote no.”

    I don’t see any logic behind that.

  129. 129
    pfft says:

    By Kary L. Krismer @ 21:

    By pfft @ 119:

    only because the republicans don’t want it to pass. it’s basically tax cuts and infrastructure- something republicans have always supported.

    In addition, it’s really another mini-stimulus plan, which after the 2010 elections both Ds and Rs are unlikely to vote for. That’s why I made the comment that fewer Ds would vote for it if it was close to passing.

    that makes no sense.

  130. 130
    pfft says:

    By Kary L. Krismer @ 25:

    RE: David Losh @ 23 – Hank Williams Jr. admits that he isn’t that well educated, and it shows.

    I wish he hadn’t said such dumb things because I like that song.

  131. 131

    By pfft @ 29:

    By Kary L. Krismer @ 21:

    By pfft @ 119:

    only because the republicans don’t want it to pass. it’s basically tax cuts and infrastructure- something republicans have always supported.

    In addition, it’s really another mini-stimulus plan, which after the 2010 elections both Ds and Rs are unlikely to vote for. That’s why I made the comment that fewer Ds would vote for it if it was close to passing.

    that makes no sense.

    How politicians vote is often dependent on the outcome. If something is certain to pass, many in the Senate will vote no on unpopular legislation if they are up for election. That way they won’t be attacked during the election for having voted for the legislation. If their election is more than two years away, the voters will forget. In the House it’s members in swing districts whose votes will be affected.

    This was unpopular legislation in total, although you can break parts of it apart and they have popular support. So many of those who voted for it might likely have voted against it if they are up for election next year and they had thought it was going to pass.

    Stated differently, if they seemingly needed 10 Republicans to vote for this legislation, they might have really needed 15 because 5 Democrats might have changed their vote if it was likely to pass.

  132. 132
    Blurtman says:

    I’d like to see a “None of the Above” choice for president. I think NOTA would win. Obama versus Romney is about as much of a choice as Murray versus Rossi. One unapologetic corporatist versus one passive-aggressive corporatist. Time to tear it all down.

  133. 133
    David Losh says:

    Commerce, and capitalism are two very different things. Trade, manufacturing, service, or products have devolved into meaning loans, interest rates, and fees.

  134. 134
    David Losh says:

    RE: pfft @ 29

    The Jobs Bill is a stimulus package tied to the Debt Panel negotiations. It would redirect funds. The Democrats tacked on the surccharge on millionaires which in turn killed the bill permanently.

    This is what I was saying before. Obama is on his own. He is isolated from his own Party. There was a lot of talk, and flag waving before the Tea Party got elected. Now there is just a lot of fear mongering.

    How about the positive message that Obama is doing a great job as a politician. You don’t like politics? Well then get in line with another solution.

  135. 135
    pfft says:

    By Blurtman @ 132:

    I’d like to see a “None of the Above” choice for president. I think NOTA would win. Obama versus Romney is about as much of a choice as Murray versus Rossi. One unapologetic corporatist versus one passive-aggressive corporatist. Time to tear it all down.

    I hate when people think they’re informed when the say something like the candidates are both the same…

  136. 136
    pfft says:

    By David Losh @ 34:

    RE: pfft @ 29

    The Jobs Bill is a stimulus package tied to the Debt Panel negotiations. It would redirect funds. The Democrats tacked on the surccharge on millionaires which in turn killed the bill permanently.

    This is what I was saying before. Obama is on his own. He is isolated from his own Party. There was a lot of talk, and flag waving before the Tea Party got elected. Now there is just a lot of fear mongering.

    How about the positive message that Obama is doing a great job as a politician. You don’t like politics? Well then get in line with another solution.

    isolated from his party? the Senate bill got 51 out of 53 democratic votes. there was more than enough votes to pass the law yet the republicans fillibustered.

  137. 137
    David Losh says:

    RE: pfft @ 136

    You can’t, won’t, or don’t see the distancing?

  138. 138

    By pfft @ 136:

    isolated from his party? the Senate bill got 51 out of 53 democratic votes. there was more than enough votes to pass the law yet the republicans fillibustered.

    I don’t believe that was technically a filibuster, because it got a vote. It’s just that to be considered they need 60 votes–a super majority. Those are the rules, like some ballot measures in Washington.

    The purpose of the 60 vote thing is to keep the Senate from being like the House–a bunch of nutcases that will vote for anything on a whim because they get excited about some nonsense–like to tax certain workers at a 95% rate.

  139. 139

    By David Losh @ 137:

    RE: pfft @ 136

    You can’t, won’t, or don’t see the distancing?

    There’s clearly distancing because many of the Democrats won’t support the spending side and others won’t support the taxing side, the latter of which is why the threshold for taxes went from $250k to $1M. They needed to raise that to get more Democratic support.

    I actually like the Democrats being a bit more independent from the party. It means they are trying to represent their constituents rather than the party.

  140. 140

    Let’s just hope that this method of getting infrastructure improvements doesn’t spread to the U.S.!

    http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/women-end-sex-strike-remote-colombian-town-14723266

  141. 141
    Blurtman says:

    RE: pfft @ 135 – I am certainly not alone in believing that the banking industry is too cozy with Washington, and that would include Obama. But what we are left with is very similar to the choice we had in the Murray-Rossi race. Rossi was terrible, and so we get to vote for something better than terrible? Yahoo!

  142. 142
    Blurtman says:

    RE: pfft @ 116 – Your job is to make an effort to understand the facts. See post 108, slacker.

  143. 143
    Blurtman says:

    Occupy Wall Street (OWS) participants. I don’t know if anyone had the chance to review the personal stories of the OWS participants and their rationales for participating in the occupation. I had posted a link previoulsy, but you can hear interviews via various media channels, including NPR.

    A good number have been the victims of catastrophic medical costs, chronic unemployment. and underemployment. There are the occasional amazing stories of art students in debt over $100k and wondering how they will repay. (Gee, how did that happen?) And a good number of folks who are sick of the umprosecuted crimes.

    But troubling to me are students who are $10-20k in debt and hopeless. What is that about? Anyone who had attended school without substantial financial support from parents or personal wealth in the past 30 years or so likely had such debt upon graduation. And I am sure a lot of folks were pretty pissed about it, too. But c’mon, it seems like some of these folks, a minority of the OWS people, are complaining a bit much.

  144. 144
    David Losh says:

    RE: Blurtman @ 141

    You’re not understanding banks, or banking. You need to, I mean need to, look at the Banks of China, Germany, Central Bank of Europe, The Russian banking system, South American banking, Canada, and Mexico.

    Governments issue currency.

    What Republicans are talking about is getting back to free wheeling financial markets. They keep hammering on energy because it is the life blood of economy. They vilify renewable energy because it would decentralize the monopolies of energy.

    Monopolies is what it is all about. Banks are becoming larger, To Big To Fail. That’s monopoly talk. Dodd-Franks, if used wisely, could also decentralize a monopoly of Central Banking. Credit Unions could have, but the lure of easy money, and the fact they have to produce results for the membership, keeps them in the same boat.

    If you talk about big government, you have to talk about big business.

    Obama did his part for the global economic community. That’s it.

  145. 145
    pfft says:

    By David Losh @ 137:

    RE: pfft @ 136

    You can’t, won’t, or don’t see the distancing?

    not from Senate democrats.

  146. 146
    pfft says:

    By Kary L. Krismer @ 39:

    By David Losh @ 137:

    RE: pfft @ 136

    You can’t, won’t, or don’t see the distancing?

    There’s clearly distancing because many of the Democrats won’t support the spending side and others won’t support the taxing side, the latter of which is why the threshold for taxes went from $250k to $1M. They needed to raise that to get more Democratic support.

    I actually like the Democrats being a bit more independent from the party. It means they are trying to represent their constituents rather than the party.

    uh 51 out of 53 democrats voted for it. what are you talking about?

  147. 147
    pfft says:

    By Blurtman @ 42:

    RE: pfft @ 116 – Your job is to make an effort to understand the facts. See post 108, slacker.

    your “fact” is that Puerto Ricans are white and not hispanic? good luck with all that.

  148. 148
    tony clifton says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 85

    It isn’t turly bizzare, there are enough of those types out there to derail the election for the righty side.

  149. 149
    tony clifton says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 67

    “You often see the parties behaving like the other did when their party is out of office. The best example of that is war issues. Whichever party holds the White House is more hawkish when they hold it than when they don’t (although the Rs tend to be more hawkish overall).”

    The big difference being, is that the righty types see themselves as some kind of hero’s, and over taxed.

    What we just witnessed though was that the righty types didn’t show up for the wars that they supported. They didn’t even have the backbone to pay for those wars.

    GW had to go begging for foreign aid to pay for the wars and hire mercinaries to serve in the war zones. Think foreign aid from the ChiComs.

    Over half of the people serving in both Afghanistan and Iraq were civilians, contractors, mercinaries, call them what you will, they weren’t American Service Personel, they were there for a pay check. Out of that half most were dirty foreigners serving.

    The righty types didn’t show up. They expected their big nanny government to provide for them, yet they looked in the mirror and saw hero’s looking back.

    Both of those fiascos were paid for with foreign aid.

    Can the righty types say “brainwashed wingnut”?

    Tell us about your military experience Kary!

  150. 150

    By pfft @ 46:

    By Kary L. Krismer @ 39:

    By David Losh @ 137:

    RE: pfft @ 136

    You can’t, won’t, or don’t see the distancing?

    There’s clearly distancing because many of the Democrats won’t support the spending side and others won’t support the taxing side, the latter of which is why the threshold for taxes went from $250k to $1M. They needed to raise that to get more Democratic support.

    I actually like the Democrats being a bit more independent from the party. It means they are trying to represent their constituents rather than the party.

    uh 51 out of 53 democrats voted for it. what are you talking about?

    They knew it wasn’t going to pass so they could vote for it. They knew that as soon as the proposal passed through President Obama’s lips.

    Go back and read what I wrote before asking what I’m talking about. I already explained why so many voted for it. You really do have a severe memory problem.

  151. 151
    tony clifton says:

    We’re still waiting to hear about your military experience Kary.

    You’re a GOP hero, let’s hear it?

  152. 152

    RE: tony clifton @ 51 – Apparently you can’t read, because I clearly don’t like either party. Hardly a Republican hero.

    Second, you’re obviously a troll. Whether or not I served has nothing to do with observing that members of both parties are more hawkish when they control the White House, but that Republicans do tend to be more hawkish. Repeating the question simply confirms you are a troll.

  153. 153
    David Losh says:

    RE: pfft @ 146

    The Jobs Bill can’t pass without unanimous support. If the President crosses the country, makes an address to Congress, then campaigns on jobs, the very least the Democrats can do is support that.

  154. 154
    Scotsman says:

    “We have accepted today the existence in perpetuity of a permanent underclass of scores of millions who cannot cope and must be carried by society — fed, clothed, housed, tutored, medicated at taxpayer’s expense their entire lives. We have a dependent nation the size of Spain in our independent America. We have a new division in our country, those who pay a double or triple fare, and those who ride forever free.”

    http://www.drudgereport.com/flashpb.htm

  155. 155
    David Losh says:

    RE: Scotsman @ 154

    ““We are trying to create a nation that has never before existed, of all the races, tribes, cultures and creeds of Earth, where all are equal. In this utopian drive for the perfect society of our dreams we are killing the real country we inherited — the best and greatest country on earth.”

    That’s the last chapter; the end of white rule in America!

    OMG!

  156. 156
    Scotsman says:

    RE: David Losh @ 155

    Yup, gotta diversify. My youngest daughter speaks English, French, and modern Arabic. My oldest daughter speaks English, Spanish, and German. Wife knows English and Spanish. I know Red Neck and Latin. Someone needs to add Chinese and we’ve got it covered- no matter who ends up in power we can beg in their native tounge.

  157. 157
    David Losh says:

    RE: Scotsman @ 156

    That’s not the point of the book.

    Chapter 2. The End of Christian America

    Chapter 3. The Crisis of Catholicism

    Chapter 4. The End of White America

    Anyway, you get the idea, and you accused me of having a 1960s view of racism.

  158. 158
    Scotsman says:

    RE: David Losh @ 157

    Oh come on, this is Buchanan we’re talking about- he’s known for being a bit off the beaten path when it comes to immigration, etc. His fears don’t mirror my own. I think the economic analysis isn’t too far off. But I doubt the decline of religion and increased diversity is at the root of what ever problems we may have. Many countries seem to have the same issues these days. Greed, corruption, stupidiity, and laziness are pretty universal across all skin colors. Except mine, of course- but then I’m a rare combination of java green with purple trim. That’s why I don’t have my picture up.

  159. 159
    David Losh says:

    RE: Scotsman @ 56

    I couldn’t resist. You should know better than to drag Pat Buchanan into a discussion.

    What I know from experience is that the worst Muslim makes the best Christian look like a Satan worshiper. It’s kind of hard to discuss religion in a country that stops five times a day to pray.

    The Bible is a history of the Middle East. When you sit in Iraq, Iran, Egypt, Israel, or Jordan, you are there where the Bible is more than a book. It’s a living discussion about events that actually happened.

    In terms of trade, there are good, or bad deals, that don’t mean who pays more in interest.

    There have been cultures, traditions, ways of doing business, for thousands of years before Europeans learned how to drive a boat. In the big scheme of things white people are a new phenomenon.

    All the stuff you talk about, or are concerned about is considered white people business. All this debt that seems to be of some concern is only paper. If you ever wanted to talk about over population then you may have a cause for concern.

    There are millions of places in the world where people just live. There’s no need for a whole bunch of miscellaneous nonsense about paper. I’ve been to places where the wealthiest guy in town was the one who owned two donkeys. Or another place where the potato farmer had a truck. His brother in law walked fifteen miles with 5 gallon containers to carry gasoline.

    The big scheme? The big dream? The wealth of nations is a fading memory. The Europeans had a chance, but they blew it on greed.

    We’re not going to let them keep the money, or have the power. They are weak, lazy, slothful people who talk tough, are extremely sociapathic, but ultimately inferior.

  160. 160
    Scotsman says:

    RE: David Losh @ 159

    “What I know from experience is that the worst Muslim makes the best Christian look like a Satan worshiper.”

    Really? The 9-11 bombers make Mother Teresa look like a satan worshiper? I’ll assume you’re shooting from the lip. But come on, David- you’re capable of more than that no matter what your bias may be.

  161. 161
    Blurtman says:

    RE: pfft @ 147 – OK. It is clear that you cling to your bigoted beliefs. You might try reading a bit on the issue. From Wiki, excerpting the CIA Fact Book: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Puerto_Rico

    White 75.8%; (mostly Spanish origin)
    Black 12.4%;
    Asian 0.2%;
    Amerindian 0.5%;
    Mixed and Other 11.1%

    You might also research the Reed Johnston immigration law of 1924 which restricted the immigration of eastern and southern Europeans into the USA. Folks from Puerto Rico, being US citizens, faced no such restrictions, and could immigrate at will.

    Sotomayor is the worst type of fraud – cloaking herself in the false flag of “person of color” to advance her career. Further, her pro-affirmative action stance continues the disadvantagement of eastern and southern Europeans, and other folks who don’t belong to fictitious racial categories, or will not lie, as Sotomayor has, to masquerade as a disadvantaged racial minority.

  162. 162
    pfft says:

    By Scotsman @ 154:

    â��We have accepted today the existence in perpetuity of a permanent underclass of scores of millions who cannot cope and must be carried by society — fed, clothed, housed, tutored, medicated at taxpayerâ��s expense their entire lives. We have a dependent nation the size of Spain in our independent America. We have a new division in our country, those who pay a double or triple fare, and those who ride forever free.â��

    http://www.drudgereport.com/flashpb.htm

    is there like some coherent point?

  163. 163
    pfft says:

    By Blurtman @ 61:

    RE: pfft @ 147 – OK. It is clear that you cling to your bigoted beliefs. You might try reading a bit on the issue. From Wiki, excerpting the CIA Fact Book: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Puerto_Rico

    White 75.8%; (mostly Spanish origin)
    Black 12.4%;
    Asian 0.2%;
    Amerindian 0.5%;
    Mixed and Other 11.1%

    You might also research the Reed Johnston immigration law of 1924 which restricted the immigration of eastern and southern Europeans into the USA. Folks from Puerto Rico, being US citizens, faced no such restrictions, and could immigrate at will.

    Sotomayor is the worst type of fraud – cloaking herself in the false flag of “person of color” to advance her career. Further, her pro-affirmative action stance continues the disadvantagement of eastern and southern Europeans, and other folks who don’t belong to fictitious racial categories, or will not lie, as Sotomayor has, to masquerade as a disadvantaged racial minority.

    honestly you have completely totally lost me on this one.

  164. 164
    pfft says:

    these large banks and wall street in general are completely in denial about their actions. they literally have the worst PR ever.

    BofA Says You Can’t Be Both a Protester and a Customer
    http://firedoglake.com/2011/10/16/sunday-late-night-bofa-says-you-cant-be-both-a-protester-and-a-customer/

  165. 165
    David Losh says:

    RE: Scotsman @ 160

    Invoking 9/11 might have worked in the Bush era, but now?

    We have a global economic collapse. That isn’t from outside terrorist bombers, or an internal spy network. It has to do with World Trade.

    I want to know, the same as I think millions of people want to know, what these terrorists knew that we didn’t.

    What is it about World Trade that made it a target?

    By the way, Mother Theresa is Catholic. Catholics were persecuted both in Europe, and here in the United States. The term Christian is used by Protestants. I’ll just note that German, French, and English forms of Christianity began portraying Jesus as white.

    Let me be real clear. In 2001 I was retired. I’m a widower who never thought he was going to do another thing until I met my current wife in 1999.

    The day of the World Trade Center attacks I watched like billions of other people. My response was to go back to work, and rebuild a faith in America. Attacking Iraq was a disappointment, the muddled incursion in to Afghanistan was pathetic, but the global economy seemed to all be working in one common goal.

    Who would have thought that it was all a scam? I built two businesses, and bought property with the idea that the global economy would finally turn around. In 2006 I could see the mistake, and bailed. Maybe I shouldn’t have, but I’ve got kids.

    Right now I’m asking what the heck? and why did we let it happen?

    You want to blame Obama. As far as I can see he’s the only President, since Reagan, who has actually done anything. You don’t like it? Fine, but he’s done something.

    I want to know what Bush did? Was Bush a part of this larger conspiracy that wrecked the economy, or was it just his buddies?

    I’ve been to the Middle East. I’ve sat at tables no white guy had ever been to, or will be again. I’ve been treated fairly by military, and police on foreign soil that hates America. I know there are decent hard working people who want to provide for their children. they want their children to have a better life.

    I want answers. I want my social security, I want health care, and I want my government to do it’s job. That’s my agenda.

  166. 166
    pfft says:

    24 Arrested At Citibank; Dramatic Video Shows Woman In A Suit Getting Arrested
    http://www.businessinsider.com/17-arrested-inside-this-citibank-during-occupy-wall-street-march-2011-10#ixzz1b0jgFe2Q

    I can’t imagine the nervousness this week for someone who is just a regular person who wants to close their account at a big bank!

  167. 167
    Blurtman says:

    RE: pfft @ 163 – Nice evasion. It is not that complicated. Sotomayor has claimed to be a “person of color” but is “white.” Can you comprehend that? Just like Tony Ribera, former chief of police of San Francisco, a Portuguese American, who claimed to be a disadvantaged minority to attend Golden Gate Univeristy on a scholarship.

    Just like Ribera, who took a lot of flack for this lie and had to drop out of the SF mayoral race once this fraud was discovered, Sotomayor, to advance her career, wraps herself incorrectly in the cloak of “person of color.” And this is now a Supreme Court justice.

    And you pffft, are a bigot, and quite ignorant of the history of European colonization of the “New World.” The Spaniards directly and indirectly killed the native inhabitants of Puerto Rico, and took their land. They imported black slaves, and so now Puerto Rico is predominately white, i.e., descendantsd of the Spanish Europeans, and black, i.e., descendants of slaves. Sotomoayor’s forefathers emgrated to Puerto Rico from Spain, which is in Europe. She is no more a “person of color” than the Italian corporatist Supreme Couret justice Scalia.

    She has advanced her career in a most despicable manner.

  168. 168
    Trigger says:

    Ok. This is what I think needs to be done ASAP.

    The Congress needs to act fast.

    Basically everybody’s debt would be forgiven because of the economic situation. A global bailout should happen.

    So if you own debt on a home = it could be forgiven. Foreclosures would go down to 0%.
    Credit card debt would be forgiven.
    All other debt would be forgiven.

    This would fix everybody’s issues and then we could all relax and have some more fun! How to do this? Easy. Simple. We just need the Fed to buy all this debt and then forgive everybody’s debt. This way we can say – no money was printed. Only debt was forgiven. Fair and easy. And Quick.

  169. 169
    pfft says:

    By Blurtman @ 167:

    RE: pfft @ 163 – Nice evasion. It is not that complicated. Sotomayor has claimed to be a “person of color” but is “white.” Can you comprehend that? Just like Tony Ribera, former chief of police of San Francisco, a Portuguese American, who claimed to be a disadvantaged minority to attend Golden Gate Univeristy on a scholarship.

    Just like Ribera, who took a lot of flack for this lie and had to drop out of the SF mayoral race once this fraud was discovered, Sotomayor, to advance her career, wraps herself incorrectly in the cloak of “person of color.” And this is now a Supreme Court justice.

    And you pffft, are a bigot, and quite ignorant of the history of European colonization of the “New World.” The Spaniards directly and indirectly killed the native inhabitants of Puerto Rico, and took their land. They imported black slaves, and so now Puerto Rico is predominately white, i.e., descendantsd of the Spanish Europeans, and black, i.e., descendants of slaves. Sotomoayor’s forefathers emgrated to Puerto Rico from Spain, which is in Europe. She is no more a “person of color” than the Italian corporatist Supreme Couret justice Scalia.

    She has advanced her career in a most despicable manner.

    hilarious.

  170. 170
    Voight-kampff says:

    RE: David Losh @ 165

    I Like your agenda, and I think many others share it, what they DONT share is how to achieve it.
     From years of reading news, this blog, and many others, I’m only certain of 2 things:
    1)  big change is coming.
    2)  NO ONE has any clue what it will look like. 
    My theory is people should do the following:
    Go fix something, go help a neighbor, take pride in something, teach someone something, help a stranger, volunteer, fly a kite, play catch, invent something!
    If people do things like this regularly, at least we’ll know that whatever is coming can’t be that bad.

  171. 171
    Voight-kampff says:

    RE: David Losh @ 165

    I Like your agenda, and I think many others share it, what they DONT share is how to achieve it.
     From years of reading news, this blog, and many others, I’m only certain of 2 things:
    1)  big change is coming.
    2)  NO ONE has any clue what it will look like. 
    My theory is people should do the following:
    Go fix something, go help a neighbor, take pride in something, teach someone something, help a stranger, volunteer, fly a kite, play catch, invent something!
    If people do things like this regularly, at least we’ll know that whatever is coming can’t be that bad.

  172. 172
    David Losh says:

    Let me try another example that isn’t race related, or economic.

    Let’s take the concept of time.

    I met a man in Central Africa who was obviously out of place. He stood differently, and his clothes were all wrong. I started talking with him in English and yes he lived in Philadelphia, an was there visiting family.

    Like a lot of people who live in the United states and travel to the “Third World,” people want to know how they can come to the United States. Many who come here leave disappointed. My new friend had seen it with uncles, or some of the kids who came to the United States, or to Europe, but returned.

    The hardest thing to explain to people from other parts of the world, is the European concept of time. Let’s remember that Hitler’s greatest accomplishment is that he had the trains in Germany run on time. It’s still talked about across Europe, today.

    Time; time is money, we’re out of time, we have a drop dead date, if we don’t resolve these issues in time the world will end, “as we know it.”

    You’re early, you’re late, your time is up, and it’s about time. That’s all we are talking about when it comes to the economy. We’re talking about foreclosure because people didn’t make payments in a timely manner. People are unemployed for a period of time, and there is no way to get “caught up.” People are out of time, so they lose their money, their investment.

    You didn’t time the market right. Solyndra is out of time to make payments because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. It’s all a race against time. There’s no time to fix anything.

    We have random market rises, and falls based on whether Greece will have enough time to pay, or get extensions of time.

    Time is money. As random, or weird is the European concept of time, Europeans also have this concept of money that isn’t based on anything other than a say so. We say so, or they say so, so that must be right.

    Everything has a solution. It’s just money, and time fixes everything.

  173. 173
    Blurtman says:

    RE: pfft @ 169 – Tragic, really. A Supreme Court justice with no sense of justice. As you disagree with my assertions, perhaps you can describe why you believe Sotomayor is correct when she asserts that she is a “person of color.”

  174. 174
    David Losh says:

    RE: Blurtman @ 173

    We discount Hispanics here in the United States by terming them white.

    They are in fact people of color. We, here in the United States, would rather degade all people down to the level of white.

    In fact, in most parts of the world white people are the lowest form of life. In Asia white people are less than dirt. Arabs consider us uncivilized. In Africa we are Satan. In the Americas we are simply the invaders.

    You’re confusing the white “privledged” class with what constitutes a person of color. Sotomeyer was at least less privledged than Obama. Is Obama white?

  175. 175

    By David Losh @ 74:

    We discount Hispanics here in the United States by terming them white.

    I’m not going to touch that one.

  176. 176
    One Eyed Man says:

    RE: Voight-kampff @ 171RE: David Losh @ 172

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtrEN-YKLBM

    In my own mind, I’ve been hanging on the bottom rung most of my life. And even now, I fear losing my grip. But in the final analysis, I guess I’m a romantic. And although the romantic may appear hopeless, he’s never entirely without hope. And deep down somewhere, I think we’re all probably romantics. Except maybe Scotsman when his daughters aren’t around to keep his mind from riding the debt curve into the great abyss ;-)

  177. 177
    David Losh says:

    Let’s call the Global Economic collapse a correction. It’s something that was caused by both Democrats, and Republicans. Reagan, Bushes, and Clinton, helped Congress destroy any chance for the middle class to advance. They all made the rich richer, and nothing ever trickled down.

    Well, let’s ask, did it trickle down on you? Was there anything in the last ten, or twenty years, of political posturing that helped you? Is the world a better place?

    I just can not believe the Republican candidate debates that seem to be asking people to go back to the way things were. Some how, for some reason, Republicans are saying we should step backward to the Bush years of prosperity. We saw how it turned out.

    Even though George Bush spent money we didn’t have, and lowered taxes, the Tea Party is supposed to be a Republican tool demanding that now we lower spending.

    Obama has been painted a villain, he’s on the ropes, low in the polls. Some how his spending is bad, it’s evil, it’s on the wrong track, but it doesn’t really look that way. The way I look at it, if we could get Republicans to shut up for a few minutes, and be productive, most of what Obama has put on the table is workable.

    We have to fix health care, and spinning wheels on “repealing” Obamacare is a step backward. We can fix health care, it has to be fixed on a national level, throwing back to the States is unworkable.

    Banking needs to be severly regulated, and we probably do need a nationalized banking system.

    GM, geez, seems to be working out. Kind of the same for all the money the government threw into the bail out programs. We just need to make the people who were bailed out accountable, and have them pay us back.

    Oil, my personal favorite, and the heart of the Republican campaign. Republicans have discovered natural gas as the next monopoly energy companies can create. Look it, we just pump benzine into the water table, and presto you got your natural gas. Never mind all the other things that we can do, this here will make oil companies rich, now that they have lost a strangle hold on the Middle East.

    I’ll give Obama credit for bringing all of Northern Africa into a new century. Repressive regimes are falling, and the people there have more chances at freedom. In three years we have seen more movement in the Middle East since all the time since Jimmy Carter.

    Which brings me back to solar energy and the billions that the Obama administration heaped on that industry. China is accused of dumping solar energy technology. Reminds me of the computer chip industry. Things just got cheaper, in a hurry.

    I’m just saying that there isn’t a lot we can say about Obama, but Republicans sure have obstructed a lot. I think it’s about time the Republicans stepped up with something more than we got to get rid of the guy who has helped us navigate some extremely tough issues.

  178. 178
    Blurtman says:

    RE: David Losh @ 174 – Nonsense. ‘Hispanic” is a creation of the Nixon administration. It is a made up term that includes white, black, Indian, and everything else. You can be a blue eyed German living in Argentina and you are a “Latino!”

    “Person of color” is also a made up term that includes everything but white. Europeans settling in the new world do not magically become “people of color” as Sotomayor would like everyone to pretend is the case.

  179. 179
    David Losh says:

    RE: Blurtman @ 178

    Sorry to inform you that race is a global standard. Is Sotomeyer white?

    Is Obama white? Obama certainly had all the privledges of being white.

    So how is it a fraud that a person from Puerto Rico, which has it’s own form of discrimination in both the Latino, and United States communities, has claimed to be a person of color?

  180. 180
    Blurtman says:

    RE: David Losh @ 179 – I have already provided links describing the racial demographics of Puerto Rico – majority white, the rest, black. If Sotomayor was black, she would be correct in claiming to be a “person of color.”

    Folks from Ireland, Eastern and Southern Europe have all faced discrimination in the USA. Are they also “persons of color?”

    Prove your argument, please, for Sotomayor being a “person of color.”

  181. 181
    pfft says:

    another industry study funded by big polluters finds global warming is REAL. This study had $150,000 in funding from the Koch Brothers. again, this is the SECOND study from pro-polluters that concluded there is global warming.

    The heat is on
    A new analysis of the temperature record leaves little room for the doubters. The world is warming
    http://www.economist.com/node/21533360

  182. 182
    David Losh says:

    RE: Blurtman @ 180

    I don’t understand your concern, but certainly I’m prepared to address it.

    Let me first say that I started talking about race when the Republican Party went after Eric Holder for not knowing about the Fast, and Furious sting operation that dates back to the Clinton Era. It’s an on going, profitable, operation that sells confiscated assault weapons through local gun dealers, who in turn sell them to criminals through straw buyers. Going after Holder was fine, they do what they do, but when they were bogged down they then claimed he has a radical black agenda, the same as Obama does. For me it became a racial issue. OK?

    Hispanics are different than Latinos. Hispanic means of Spanish descent. Latino has been more adopted for all people of Central, and South America, including Puerto Rico. There is a distinction between the people who were originally here, and the Spanish who were Conquistidoros. Of course those of Hispanic descent are inferior.

    The people of Central America through South America had cities, laws, politics, medicine, long before the invaders came. People in North America also had laws, but were termed more nomadic. The Spanish more integrated the gene pool, the whites killed everything in its path.

    Whites took control of all territories they could defend. All the way up to the Nixon era there were only white, black, and “Indian” in this country. We couldn’t ignore slaves. White people had engaged in a Civil War, killing another million people, that culminated in Emancipation. Whites were still fighting back the Spanish through all of that.

    Hmmm…. Let’s see. The Spanish, mixed with the “Indians” so that made the “Indians” Spanish, which white people determined to be conquerors like themselves.

    This is real simple. White people have no business here. The Spanish have no business here. The Spanish got their butts kicked the heck out of Mexico, Central, and South America, but here in the United States, and Canada we still cozy up with our Allies of Two World Wars, the French, and English.

    If Hispanic ever gets to be a race, or voting block, the United States would cease to exist in three generations. It’s the “Hispanics” country, it’s the Latinos country. White people make ridiculous claims about “illegal” immigration into a country they have no right to, or business being in.

    Sotomayor is rightly looked at as a first of several salvos into the laws that white people impose on the rest of the world, by force. Sotomayor is Puerto Rican from the Bronx. You can’t get much more colorful than that.

  183. 183
    Blurtman says:

    RE: David Losh @ 182 – Definitions or the term “Hispanic” are across the board in what the term encompasses, but it does seem to encompass folks from Portugal, too, making Sotomayor the second “Hispanic” Supreme Court justice. Or, if you don’t like that definition, she can be the first. “Hispanic” as applied to a race or ethnicity is a totally made up term, absolute nonsense.

    You do mention on interesting topic – Spanish speaking Indians. Years ago I contacted the SF Bay Area Small Business Administration about an SBA loan. I asked what one had to do to be considered as a “Hispanic” to qualify for a minority SBA loan. I was told that one had only to claim to be “Hispanic.” I then asked if one could merely claim to be a Native American to qualify for an SBA minority loan, and I was told no, that you would have to prove that you were on a tribal register. Imagine that, the US government treating its own Indians less failry than Indians from other countries!

    I think Spanish speaking Native American is perhaps the truest definition of “Hispanic” from a disadvantaged minority perspective. But “Indian” is sadly a perjorative term in Mexico, where the Indians are ashamed of their native culture, and worship that of the Spanish conqueror. Imagine a European people coming to the New World, destroying the culture of the native people, and the descendants of the European conquerors claiming to be members of the very disadvantaged minority group that their forefathers created! This is what Sotomayor has made a career doing.

    The Amerindians were wiped out in Puerto Rico by Sotomayor’s ancestors a long time ago. Look at photos of her parents; they could easily be from Spain, Portugal, Greece, Bulgaria, or any European country where black hair is common. The CIA world factbook says that 76% of Puerto Ricans are white. Are you going to claim that they are “persons of color?”

  184. 184

    Has anyone proposed this? Rather than giving additional loans to Greece, give additional loans to banks so that they survive the collapse of Greece. Then watch Greece and see what happens when their economic system collapses. Will they have a fast recovery or not?

  185. 185
    David Losh says:

    RE: Blurtman @ 183

    The term Hispanic is specific to the invaders. That’s why Latino is a preferred term in some communities.

    These are blanket terms based on Census. The Census counts blocks, or groups of people. Government programs are allocated by these group counts, especially since 1962, the year of Civil Rights. 1962, seems pretty recent.

    You’re also very wrong about Puerto Rico. Let me say again it’s about invaders, oppressors, Conquistidoros. This is going to be a very strong point in the coming years.

    I’m very happy you fixated on Sotomayor. We do need to change a lot of laws in this country. We will need to repatriate millions of people. We can’t allow the invaders to continue to run rough shod over a population that was given Independence by the same set of laws that these occupiers put in place.

    We may be coming to the end of white rule in this country. I give it three generations.

  186. 186
    David Losh says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 84

    BRUSSELS — France’s president says the European Union will force banks to raise their capital to higher levels already by 2012 rather than 2019.

    It makes no difference really. Europe has much bigger problems than Greece, now.

    In all of this excitement I think every one ignored financial flight. Would you trust your money in the European banking system? If you had money, wealth kind of money, and you were from China, or India, where you your money go? Would you leave your money to the German engineering manufacturing base of the socialist workers party? How about England’s skin head working class that is on the hunt for Paki Posses? France? where school girl scarves are a voting issue?

    I haven’t been paying a lot of attention, but it seems to me that Europe has sever problems that have yet to be addressed.

    Here in the United States we do have bankruptcy. There is a foreclosure process. We have bailed out our banks, and those banks are making huge profits. We’re locked in an election that may well change our financial direction, and in Europe they just keep treading water.

  187. 187
    Blurtman says:

    RE: David Losh @ 185 – The “invaders” are now the majority in Latino countries like Argentina and Uruguay – Spaniards, Italians and Germans primarily make up more than 90% of these country’s populations. I wait for a Spanish speaking German immigrant to the USA from Argentina advancing her career by claiming to be a “person of color.”

    Amerinidans are still a significant portion of the population of Peru, Venezuela, Mexico and other countries, but much of the wealth of those countries is in the hands of the descendants of the European invaders. In fact, the illegal immigration problem in the USA is due to disadvantaged Spanish speaking Indians seeking opportunity denied them in their native country where a significant amount of land and wealth is in the hands of the descendants of the European invaders.

  188. 188
    David Losh says:

    RE: Blurtman @ 187

    Whoa, back the truck up, because Argintinian Germans, are German. Italians, on the other hand did blend. In Uraguay you will also find Arabs, who also blend.

    It’s the white people, like the Germans, who are the problem.

    It’s like the Japanese in Peru who claim to be Peruvian. That may be what the passport says, but we all know they are Japanese first.

    Hispanic is a term for those who blended, successfully. “Amerindians?” as you like that term are the dominate culture, and gene pool.

  189. 189
    Blurtman says:

    RE: David Losh @ 188 – ““Amerindians?” as you like that term are the dominate culture, and gene pool.”

    Check your facts.

    86.4% of Argentinians are European: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Argentina

    95.4% of Uruguayans are white:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruguay

    OK, I fully expect a Spanish speaking Italian immigrant to the USA from Argentina advancing her career by claiming to be a “person of color.”

  190. 190
    David Losh says:

    RE: Blurtman @ 189

    You keep coming back to this term white, like it means something. It’s a term the United States uses to reaffirm a dominace. It would be the same in Uruguay, or Argentina.

    Invaders always want to claim dominance. That doesn’t make it so.

    You keep missing the point that we are at the end of an era for white people; Europeans.

    Europeans are lazy, ignorant, and slothful. Americans are the same. The culture in South America dominates. Even though Eiropeans kill anything, and everything in thier path, just because they dominate by sheer brutality, doesn’t make the culture dominant. It just makes the culture imposed.

    Sotomayor brings a higher standard to the United States by virtue of embracing her culture.

  191. 191
    Blurtman says:

    RE: David Losh @ 190 – You are wrong. First, I think all such categories are nonsense. But the dominated also use the term “white.” And Sotomayor, whose parents come from a predominately “white” country, has constantly and illegitimately used the anti-“white” descriptor “person of color” to advance her career. So a lot of folks play this game, “whites,” “non-whites,” and even “whites” masquerading as a member of the very disadvantaged group that their land grabbing, native murdering ancestors created. The latter I would say is the most despicable use.

  192. 192
    David Losh says:

    RE: Blurtman @ 191

    I’m always happy to discuss race. Especially when it comes to people of color. Sotomayor is by far a person of color, Puerto Rico is a country of color. There may be some white people there, but they are a minority.

    So by your logic the minority of white people from Puerto Rico should be given a preference over people of color, because they are the minority. I mean, isn’t that the point of being a person of color? Aren’t you claiming that some how Sotomayor was given more priviledges because she was a person of color, rather than being white?

    Isn’t that what white people are complaining about? Aren’t white people claiming they can’t find work because all these people of color are taking all the good jobs? Is it that white people, who have generations of accumulated wealth by land grabs, mineral rights, and a court system structured in thier favor, are now being put at a disadvantage because people of color are getting preferrential treatment?

    Let’s just look at Puerto Rico as the United States has helped them so much, all those tax dollars going do there to help them folks live the high life. Well after all, why wouldn’t we, because according to you Puerto Rico is just another suburb. All the dad’s are going to work for a living wage, because they do have the minimum wage laws there. The Universities are preparing all the younguns for those plum jobs they are going to get when they come to the United States. Not to mention they get first pick of all the really good jobs because, wink, wink, they can claim they are people of color. Isn’t that about right?

    Ah wait, I was just fooling. The United states set up factories there then gave American Corporations operating in Puerto Rico free trade status. Uh oh, that didn’t work once we had NAFTA, to include countries who didn’t have our minimum wage laws.

    Well, wait once again, we have an intertwined economic system that still gives American Corporations a lower tax rate, and the country itself is struggling with debt. Uh oh, we may need to bail them out. Uh oh, we already are. Now they owe us big time.

    Puerto Rico is an example of our interference for the gain of our American Coporations on foriegn soil. It has made a mess, that hopefully, some one of color, like Sotomayor, can help sort out.

  193. 193
    David Losh says:

    Whatever, fun’s fun, but I was wondering what all the change in Northern Africa will do to global holdings there. If the Muslim Brotherhood does impose Sharia Law, that will do away with interest payments.

    What will the losses be to financial instruments based on global investment across North Africa since World War Two?

  194. 194
    Blurtman says:

    RE: David Losh @ 192 – “I’m always happy to discuss race. Especially when it comes to people of color. Sotomayor is by far a person of color, Puerto Rico is a country of color. There may be some white people there, but they are a minority. ”

    Incorrect. Check your facts and prejudices. Puerto Rico is 76% white, mostly Spaniards like Sotomayor’s parents. 12.4% black. It is closer to Argentina which is all white, absent the large Italian and German populations.

    Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Puerto_Rico

    So you are quite incorrect to assume that whites are a minority in Puerto Rico.

    It is not that unusual for Europeans to advance their careers by pretending to be disadvantaged minorities. As pointed out previously, the former chief of police in SF, CA, attended Golden Gate University on a minority scholarship, and was embarassed by the revelation that he was 100% European white, Portuguese American.

    If Sotomayor was not to advance her career by pretending to be a disadvantaged minorty “person of color,” she would have just been another poor white person, and there is no help for those people, and no angle to play there for career advancement.

  195. 195
    pfft says:

    the truth hurts.

    DAVID FRUM: It’s Time We Republicans Finally Admitted That Paul Krugman Has Been Right
    http://www.businessinsider.com/david-frum-paul-krugman-right-2011-10#ixzz1bf7q20s7

  196. 196
    pfft says:

    it’s also time we said austerity doesn’t work.

  197. 197
    David Losh says:

    RE: Blurtman @ 194

    Whoa!!! You should get off the wiki and actually meet some Puerto Ricans. It’s kind of the same in Argentina, but you can tell the Germans a mile away.

    There are no poor white people in this country. There is no disadvantaged people of the privledged class. White people always have a choice.

  198. 198
    Blurtman says:

    RE: David Losh @ 197 – I grew up in NJ and attended college in NYC and so was friends with many Puerto Ricans. While some aspects of their culture were different than mine, some aspects of my family’s culture were different than other Americans.

    What you are asking me to do is to ignore the facts, and honor your prejudiced viewpoint which I shall not do. While I linked to Wiki, their summary of the racial demographics of Puerto Rico comes from the CIA World Factbook.

    With regards to your assertion that there are no poor whites in America, again your bias is extraordinarily at odds with the facts. Please research poverty demographics in the USA. There are more poor white people in the USA than any other race.

  199. 199
    David Losh says:

    RE: Blurtman @ 198

    That’s only because “white” is the dominate demographic. As you pointed out Hispanics are white.

    I looked at the Stomayor pictures, and she doesn’t look white. She looks Hispanic, her parents look Hispanic.

    Let me help you out by interjecting my own made up term of European white. The entire world sees these people coming. There are the dreaded killers, the invaders. A European white is feared first, but never respected. We are seeing the collapse of their empire now, from within.

    These people are so stupid they thought that all the paper that they generate, with the bogus laws, small print, and financial schemes would keep them in power. They refuse to work, and demand the world owes them something for nothing. They are at the end of an era.

    Hopefully, with the help of people like Sotomayor, and Obama the United States can be saved from the same fate as Europe. We need people of more rational perspective to guide us out of the financial mess we created by shear oppression.

    Race has to do with skin color, and cultural affiliation. Sotomayor looks native to Central America. She has claimed, and lived a minority status.

    White people can always claim white. White people are the people of privilege. If you’re white and play by the white man’s rules you can do anything. If you are a “person of color” you have to overcome the prejudice. You still play by the white man’s rules, but you have to prove yourself to be extraordinary.

    There is no comparison.

  200. 200
    k2000k says:

    RE: David Losh @ 199

    How can Obama save the US from the fate of Europe when he is enacting so many policies that are influnced by the European social system? Increased goverment involvement will do nothing to solve our problems, it will infact exacerbate them, do you think that the goverment wasn’t in bed with the financial corporations, that they didn’t help create this mess through sheer greed and incompetence? I mean how can you have any faith in Obamas administration considering the Solyndra debacle, considering how a Democratic congress rammed a healthcare bill overnight despite their promise to do otherwise and let the public read it? The Republicans, with few exceptions, have also shown themselves equally incapable of living up to their 2010 promises and are unwilling to address the systemic problems that the constant militarism and oppresively large entitlement system is doing to this nation. I have obsolutely no faith in the ability of the goverment to sovle this problem and given their track record I am confident their invovlement will only make things worse.

  201. 201
    doug says:

    RE: k2000k @ 200

    “I mean how can you have any faith in Obamas administration… considering how a Democratic congress rammed a healthcare bill overnight despite their promise to do otherwise and let the public read it? ”

    This bill took months and months to draft, amend and pass. How much longer did you want the process to be? What you call ‘ramming through’ I would call ‘voting on and passing’.

    I fear that nothing needed can be accomplished at this point too, because the bar has been set for endless obstruction. The Democrats should have done away with the fillibuster, just as the Republicans should have done before them.

  202. 202
    Blurtman says:

    RE: David Losh @ 99 – You see Sotomayor as different because you are a racist. A benevolent racist, perhaps, but a racist nonetheless. There are Italian and Spanish Americans with darker skin than Sotomayor, if that is how you view the world. All you are able to do is to describe your prejudices, You provide absolutely no facts to back up your assertions.

    There is no argument that on a percentage basis, there are proportionately less poor whites in the USA than blacks, for example. But that is not germane to what you had claimed, which was, that there were no poor whites in the USA, an absolute fallacy.

    Again, your prejudices are based upon ingorance. I have presented the facts.

    You spout unsubstantiated nonsense, including that “If you’re white and play by the white man’s rules you can do anything.”

    You are an opinionated racist, and a bigot, pure and simple. Try to stick to the facts. You may learn something.

  203. 203
    David Losh says:

    RE: k2000k @ 100

    I like Solyndra. China dumping cheaper solar here is still a good thing. Light weight solar is still a good thing.

    Obama wanted health care reform passed before the summer break. We ended up with the Tea Party wing nuts and a push to get the legislation passed, any legislation, even though it is a Republican Party give away to the health insurance industry. We will have to change it, but the legislation exists, and it will be hard to get rid of.

    What I like most was the end of the weekly updates about Afghanistan. I have always felt targeted kills were a much better use of our resources, and I think Obama has proved that.

    I’m saying that Europe is at the end of an era. We don’t have much in common with them. I don’t hear Obama giving any “Our Allies” speeches. I don’t see Obama on a junket to Germany. What I do see is our Secretary of State in Libya, two days before Moammar is killed, talking about killing Moammar. Next it’s off to Iran. That’s powerful stuff.

    We aren’t guaranteeing any loans to Europe. We aren’t saying they are too big to fail.

    I see Obama did what he had to do, it may have been a mistake, but it seems what we have left is to put people to work. I’m sorry that I see that as a corrupt private sector asking for hand outs before they will do anything. I see it as the good old boy system wanting to get in some more good old boys so the looting can continue.

  204. 204
    David Losh says:

    RE: Blurtman @ 202

    It’s a new set of numbers on the Global Economic October Thread. It’s a new page.

    I’m always happy to engage people about race, because it’s an important issue. You’ve more than proved every point I’ve ever made about the United States when it comes to the conveniently forgotten Declaration of Independence.

    This country stands apart as a melting pot that segregates, oppresses, and hinders. That isn’t how it was set up, it’s what it became during the aggression, and ultimate occupation by foriegn powers.

  205. 205
    Blurtman says:

    RE: David Losh @ 204 – I am also happy to engage in a discussion about race. It has alwas been my opinion that the US government is one of the biggest culprits in promoting racism, which I define as a belief in the existence of races. And yes, the federal government has set people apart and even institutionalized racism, ostensibly for benevolent reasons, through the overt racism of affirmative action.

  206. 206
    David Losh says:

    RE: Blurtman @ 205

    I love talking Affirmative Action, especially when our government jails those that don’t play by the rules.

    Race: Black males continue to be incarcerated at an extraordinary rate. Black males make up 35.4 percent of the jail and prison population — even though they make up less than 10 percent of the overall U.S population. Four percent of U.S. black males were in jail or prison last year, compared to 1.7 percent of Hispanic males and .7 percent of white males. In other words, black males were locked up at almost six times the rate of their white counterparts.

    The United States is still in the business of enslaving people, yet some want to turn a blind eye.

    The actual term you are looking for is reparations.

    Harper’s Magazine has created an estimate that the total of reparations due is over 100 trillion dollars, based on 222,505,049 hours of forced labor between 1619 and 1865, with a compounded interest of 6%.[8] Should all or part of this amount be paid to the descendants of slaves in the United States, the current U.S. government would only pay a fraction of that cost, over 40 trillion dollars, since it has been in existence only since 1789.

    That of course, exceeds a little the forty acres, and a mule that were promised, given, then taken away.

    Your argument about Sotomayor is best put to rest by:

    As Sandra Day O’Connor wrote for the majority, “In order to cultivate a set of leaders with legitimacy in the eyes of the citizenry, it is necessary that the path to leadership be visibly open to talented and qualified individuals of every race and ethnicity.”

    Which she wrote for the landmark 2003 case involving the University of Michigan’s affirmative action policies-one of the most important rulings on the issue in twenty-five years-the Supreme Court decisively upheld the right of affirmative action in higher education.

    Racism is everywhere. There is no color blind society. You’re seeing that in Europe today. I see it in the United States. “Afirmative Action” is a joke that is told around the Thanksgiving dinner table by white people about how oppressed they are, and how they just can’t catch a break.

  207. 207
    Voight-kampff says:

    True or false?

    A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world’s greatest civilizations has been 200 years.
    Great nations rise and fall. The people go from bondage to spiritual truth, to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency, from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependence, from dependence back again to bondage.

  208. 208
    Blurtman says:

    RE: David Losh @ 206 – Well, you actually can do research, and not just blurt (:>)) out unfounded opinions.

    I don’t think SDO’s comments are necessarily an endorsement of affirmative action taken literally. With regards to admissions to schools, why not jail adminstrators who discriminate against equally qualified applicants on the basis of race?

    With regards to reparations, if a stranger breaks into your house and steals your gold, is it equitable for you to break into the house of your neighbor and take his?

    I doubt very much if the USG collects data on those harmed by affirmative action, so I cannot provide any links to you most likely, but I will research this.

    But let’s look at types of affirmative action programs and who benefits and who is harmed.

    Affirmative action for the wealty and well connected: George W. Bush’s admssion into what is supposed to be the top business school in the USA, Harvard, is a blatant example of this type of program. Unqualified applicants to programs are admitted because of the pull of their families. Do you think this is OK?

    Legacy admission programs: the offspring of alumni are admitted preferentially, good business for schools that want alumni contributuions, but bad news for applicants whose folks may never have attended college at all.

    So who is disadvantaged by these programs? Poor folks of all colors.

    Affirmative action for certain races: Social engineering to balance the racial composition of school admissions, allows for less academically qualified students to be admitted on the basis of race.

    So who is disadvantaged by this program? Poor folks who do not fit the preferred categories, or fabricate a fit.

    So if you are a poor white student, you are operating at a disadvantage to three preferential admission programs.

  209. 209
    David Losh says:

    RE: Blurtman @ 208

    I research all of this.

    The biggest stumbling block in minority communities is having heroes. The deck is stacked. If you don’t want to believe that, well I’ll never change your mind.

    Affirmative Action was to help create those role models. Obama is a role model. He came from a privledge back ground, but he made the leap.

    It’s all about having heroes.

  210. 210
    Blurtman says:

    RE: David Losh @ 209 – Affirmaitve action does not operate in a vacuum. Racism is felt at the individual level. The individal is on the receiving end of actions resulting from generalizations about a larger group. It isn’t a zero sum game when you extend preferences to one group, whether for good or bad intent. For example, there are not an unlimited number of seats in an enterring graduate school class. When you reserve some for the George W. Bush types, middle class and poor students are denied access. When you hold seats for legacy students, those spots are not available for students whose parents may have never attended college. And when you use quotas or lower admission critera based upon race, those seats are not available for folks not meeting those racial criteria. So poor white students with non-college educated parents are subject to the most admission program exclusions under these conditions.

  211. 211
    David Losh says:

    RE: Blurtman @ 210

    Wow!

    Alright, uneducated poor white people are extremely disadvantaged. There you go. They happen to be the majority of the poor uneducated disadvantaged, but that doesn’t count? We should hold every spot open to the people with the highest, and best credentials. Hmmm, wouldn’t that also mean that there would only be 10% for the rest of the minorities, maybe 25%? Wouldn’t that perpetuate the same standards?

    Well wait, how does any of that address the millions of white Americans who have generational wealth that other minorities never had the luxury to accumulate?

    This isn’t really a discussion. Affirmative Action doesn’t work. Your proposal doesn’t work. If all education spots were awarded by credentials, or aptitude there would be far fewer white people in any of the spots.

    Sotomayor is a good example, you picked a good one there. What were her qualifications, as long as we are researching?

  212. 212

    I’m trying to get my head around something conceptually, and am having a hard time.

    What is the long term impact of China loaning the US and now Europe money? And by impact I mean the relative value of their money to ours and the Euro.

    What I’m wondering is this. Years ago the NFL had a salary cap scheme where a team could effectively push salary into the present at the expense of the ability to spend in the future. I’m wondering if China’s current policy is allowing their economy to do well now, but at a great cost in the future. Will their goods suddenly become more expensive as a result of all the lending they’ve done? I’m not sure why it would, but they’re clearly pursuing a policy that pumps up their economy at the current time, and that has to come at some cost at some point, right?

  213. 213

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 212 – No one else can get their head around that either? I’ve not known this forum to be shy about expressing their opinions.

  214. 214
    David Losh says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 213

    Oh, alright, as long as I’m here, it goes like this; in the news today people in Shanghai are demonstrating against falling Real Estate prices. China has to do something to spread it’s wealth outside of a collapsing construction loan market place.

    Loans of billions of dollars have been made, and paid by quasi nationalized banking interests. As that collapses, as the money runs out, it is better to take dollars out of the country into Europe, and the United States.

    I was talking with a REIT sales manager the other day who is extremely busy. Money is coming here from all over the world, but his company’s next move is into Europe. They are waiting for the financial markets there to collapse so the can start buying up distressed commercial high rises.

    The only question is how strong the leases are, and the source of revenue the big tenants have.

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