Monday Open Thread (2011-12-05)

Here is your open thread for Monday December 5th, 2011. You may post random links and off-topic discussions here. Also, if you have an idea or a topic you’d like to see covered in an article, please make it known.

Be sure to also check out the forums, and get your word in the user-driven discussions there!

0.00 avg. rating (0% score) - 0 votes

About The Tim

Tim Ellis is the founder of Seattle Bubble. His background in engineering and computer / internet technology, a fondness of data-based analysis of problems, and an addiction to spreadsheets all influence his perspective on the Seattle-area real estate market. Tim also hosts the weekly improv comedy sci-fi podcast Dispatches from the Multiverse.

62 comments:

  1. 1
    Pegasus says:

    Prosecuting Wall Street, pt. 1 60 Minutes Countrywide

    http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7390540n&tag=contentBody;storyMediaBox

  2. 2
    Pegasus says:

    Prosecuting Wall Street, pt. 2 60 Minutes Citigroup

    Two high-ranking financial whistleblowers say they tried to warn their superiors about defective and even fraudulent mortgages. So why haven’t the companies or their executives been prosecuted? Steve Kroft reports.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7390542n&tag=contentMain;contentAux

  3. 3

    RE: Pegasus @ 2 – You do realize that 60 Minutes is not a credible news source, right? Ambush journalism is not journalism.

    60 Minutes picks a side and tells the story from that point of view. Relying on it for news is like relying on company press releases.

  4. 4

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 3

    Relying On Any MSM Source for Real Estate Advice is Anomalous at Best

  5. 5
    Blurtman says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 3 – You must be living in a cave if you think 60 Minutes is breaking this story. Blatant, unprosecuted Wall Street fraud has been reported for quite a while now. The Citi auditing VP’s testimony that Citi management knew that 60-80% of Citi’s mortgages that they were bundling and selling were garbage, finally reported by 60 Minutes, was reported by numerous media outlets. It was even posted here numerous times. It is still amazing to me that Robert Rubin, Obama’s advisor and former Treasury Sceretary, participated in this fraud.

    I think Pegasus’ point may be that it is finally being reported in MSM. Which means that the average US couch potato citizen is slowly getting the “news.”

  6. 6
    Pegasus says:

    RE: Blurtman @ 5 – That is partially why I posted it. The other reason it is fun to point out how wrong Kary was in his statements and predictions about the mortgage crisis being nothing.

  7. 7

    By softwarengineer @ 4:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 3

    Relying On Any MSM Source for Real Estate Advice is Anomalous at Best

    Or anything for that matter.

    Last week I mentioned Tim Russert asking why oil companies were making so much money if oil was in short supply.

    Sunday on Meet the Press, David Gregory had a chart up, and said that the chart showed unemployment hadn’t been below 9% since 2009. The chart showed it was at 8.8% in early 2011. http://www.ncsl.org/?tabid=13307

    Of course that is just incompetence and ignorance. 60 Minutes is intentional deceit.

  8. 8

    By Blurtman @ 5:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 3 – You must be living in a cave if you think 60 Minutes is breaking this story.

    I didn’t say that I thought that. I just said they were not a credible source.

  9. 9

    By Pegasus @ 6:

    RE: Blurtman @ 5 – That is partially why I posted it. The other reason it is fun to point out how wrong Kary was in his statements and predictions about the mortgage crisis being nothing.

    You are somewhat dense if you think posting a non-credible source shows anything.

    But go back and our dispute was over the use of the term fraud. Show me the court cases where fraud has been proven (criminal or civil, but not “a fraud on the court”). If anyone is wrong, it’s you.

    Also, quit mis-stating my position. When did I ever say the mortgage crisis was “nothing?”

    Other than those three points–great post. Right up to your usual standards.

  10. 10
    Pegasus says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 9 – You intentionally can’t prove fraud if you never charge anyone with fraud or look for it. That was the point of the 60 Minute story. The good thing is that if enough voters get angry about being cheated they will at least have to prosecute a few “tokens” to appease the masses. For 60 Minutes to run this story when the higher ups normally back away from stories such as Big Tobacco and many others says that the political climate is changing and there is an election coming up. Here is another clip “in your face” Kary showing how full of baloney you are:

    Borgers tells Kroft that the FCIC found evidence of trillions of dollars of fraud and gross negligence, and that in the area of mortgage fraud, he found crimes committed by “mortgage originators, underwriters, banks . . . across the board.” Yet still, no prosecutions . . . so far.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504803_162-57336046-10391709/behind-the-financial-crisis-a-fraud-investigator-talks/?tag=contentMain;contentAux

  11. 11
    Pegasus says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 9 – “Also, quit mis-stating my position. When did I ever say the mortgage crisis was “nothing?”

    Haha. Memory fails when you are so wrong. You predicted that the mortgage crisis would turn out to be nothing. Ira even commented about you making that prediction. You also said robosigners were just doing their job, whistle blowers were not credible, etc, etc. You were WRONG, WRONG,WRONG!

  12. 12
    Blurtman says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 9 – Really, Kary, your position seems to be that if 100 people witnessed a murder, but the chief of police refuses to prosecute (perhaps because the murderer is a family member). then no crime had been committed. The “Justice” Department is a captured entity, for whatever reasons. Holder worked for a prominent law firm that had Goldman Sachs as a client. Could just be the old boy’s club at work.

  13. 13

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 7

    Oil’s Currently Been On the Rise

    Yet at the same time gasoline is going down like 20-30 cents a gallon lately….why you may ask?

    IMO, they were gouging us all year long at the pump. Also, we’re probably not buying it like we used to a few months ago, so they have no where to store it….answer, lower the price…

  14. 14
    Tim McB says:

    Interesting article on political headwinds that face the near term housing market:

    http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2011/12/05/housing-political-headwinds/?iid=HP_LN

    Most interesting line in the article: “FHA reported estimated economic net worth of $2.6 billion backing $1.078 trillion insurance in force, for a capital ratio of just 0.24% (or 417x leverage). One year ago, the capital ratio was 0.50%, and in 2007 it was 6.4%. The FHA’s annual report claims it’s adequately capitalized, but this conclusion relies on home prices not falling at all from here.”

  15. 15
    Pegasus says:

    RE: softwarengineer @ 13 – Actually the US is exporting gasoline because demand has dropped in the US and refiners have excess capacity. Seasonally gas prices are still above average.

    http://money.cnn.com/2011/12/05/news/economy/gasoline_export/index.htm

  16. 16
    Blurtman says:

    RE: Tim McB @ 14 – Timmy Geithner and the USG and you and your kids, your grandkids, and your entire lineage are backstopping the FHA, and also Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, etc.

  17. 17

    RE: Pegasus @ 11 – Links please. Your saying I said something is not credible at all.

    I know I never said anything about robosigners just doing their job, or commenting on the credibility of whistleblowers. You’re perhaps confusing my comments about the nutcase websites that you link to.

  18. 18

    By Blurtman @ 12:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 9 – Really, Kary, your position seems to be that if 100 people witnessed a murder, but the chief of police refuses to prosecute (perhaps because the murderer is a family member). then no crime had been committed.

    That might be a good analogy. When a policeman shoots someone, a lot of people will come out of the woodwork claiming it was murder, not knowing what murder is. Clue, it’s not just killing someone with a gun.

    In this case, Pegasus and his nutcase websites don’t know what fraud is, so they call something fraud.

    Again though, I ‘m not saying no fraud occurred. I think you could call some of the collusion between loan originators and appraisers fraud. And I’m not saying that no higher end fraud occurred. Just that it’s difficult to prove, and hasn’t been proven yet.

  19. 19
    Tim McB says:

    RE: Blurtman @ 16

    Honk if I’m propping up your mortgage holder and servicer? Doesn’t sounds as catchy as Honk if I’m paying your mortgage, but just as true?

  20. 20

    RE: Pegasus @ 11 – BTW, I think you may be thinking of my comments about Mers and Robosigners, particularly as they pertain to our state. Neither should be a big deal here. I probably have said that repeatedly. We don’t have any statute requiring assignments to be recorded to be effective, and we don’t have many court declarations created.

  21. 21
    Pegasus says:

    By Kary L. Krismer @ 17:

    RE: Pegasus @ 11 – Links please. Your saying I said something is not credible at all.

    I know I never said anything about robosigners just doing their job, or commenting on the credibility of whistleblowers. You’re perhaps confusing my comments about the nutcase websites that you link to.

    Now you are just fabricating denials. I am not confusing your false statements with your other ones that were to disparage the web sites that pointed out the facts and the truth.

  22. 22

    By Pegasus @ 15:

    RE: softwarengineer @ 13 – Actually the US is exporting gasoline because demand has dropped in the US and refiners have excess capacity. Seasonally gas prices are still above average.

    http://money.cnn.com/2011/12/05/news/economy/gasoline_export/index.htm

    That has interesting implications for the price of gas, suggesting it would be higher than normal. But on the other hand, I really doubt the demand is that great for most of the places the gasoline could be shipped from the U.S. The exception would be places like Japan. So that would still favor US sales. And it might actually help the price of gas in the long run, causing more investment in U.S. facilities.

  23. 23

    RE: Tim McB @ 19

    Here’s Another Good Bumper Sticker

    “Overpopulation’s OK, I Recycle”

  24. 24

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 22

    Yes, That URL Seems to Explain the Cheaper Gas as Oil Goes Up in Price

    Still, it means they were gouging us….even if we used what was produced in the past and now they’re selling it abroad because they’re over-produced…why is it cheaper if foreigners buy it too????

    The foreigners may likely be glutted with lower depression demand too, IMO, so they had to lower the price…..I imagine trying to reduce gasoline refinery output increases setup and lays off workers….reduces profits. A vicious spiral in downward depression prices.

    Its like productivity, its currently up again with American workers….good news you’d think….wrong, bad news, now they don’t need to hire as many.

  25. 25
    pfft says:

    By Kary L. Krismer @ 3:

    RE: Pegasus @ 2 – You do realize that 60 Minutes is not a credible news source, right? Ambush journalism is not journalism.

    60 Minutes picks a side and tells the story from that point of view. Relying on it for news is like relying on company press releases.

    oh my god.

  26. 26
    pfft says:

    By Blurtman @ 16:

    RE: Tim McB @ 14 – Timmy Geithner and the USG and you and your kids, your grandkids, and your entire lineage are backstopping the FHA, and also Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, etc.

    would you rather they backstop nothing and nobody has a job? we can argue the details but we had to bailout the banks.

  27. 27
    Scotsman says:

    http://www.financialsense.com/contributors/2011/12/02/ann-barnhardt/interview-transcript

    “We are now living in a lawless, Marxist, Communist, usurped, what used to be a representative republic but is no more. This is no longer a nation of laws. This has now transformed into a nation of men. It doesn’t matter what crime you commit. In the case of Jon Corzine, this man has stolen in excess of a billion dollars. I think by the time it is all panned out it is going to be closer to $3 billion of customer funds that he stole. Why did he do it? Is he stupid? Well, of course he’s not stupid. This is a former head of Goldman Sachs. This man doesn’t have a low IQ per se. Why in the world would a man wake up in the morning one day and say you know what, I think I am going to steal all the customer seg funds in this FCM that I’m running, which is the biggest FCM in the country. Yeah, that sounds like a good plan. No. Why would a man like that even engage in a nefarious plot like this? Because he knew going into it he could get away with it. And the reason he could get away with it is he is in tight with the Obama regime. He is one of Obama’s highest fundraisers. Earlier this year Jon Corzine had a fundraiser dinner at his New York City apartment for Barack Obama where it was charged at $35,000 a plate. Okay? He bundled high six figures for Obama in one evening! He is a crony of the regime. This is Marxist Communism. There is no rule of law.”

  28. 28
    ChrisM says:

    MF Global – new regulations suggested:

    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/regulators-approve-mf-global-rule-175506992.html

    “The new rule will limit how the brokerage industry can invest customer money, largely barring firms from using client funds to buy foreign sovereign debt. It also prevents a complex transaction that allowed MF Global, in essence, to borrow money from its own customers.”

    I thought this sort of stuff would already have been covered by existing law, such as SOX.

    “Bart Chilton, a Democratic member of the Commodity Futures Trading Commission, is pushing for Congress to create an insurance account for futures industry customers similar to the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation’s fund.”

    I’ve got a better idea – let’s make it a capital crime to touch segregated funds.

  29. 29
    pfft says:

    look at the government making all those prudent companies make imprudent loans!

    The loan officers received bonuses, commissions. They were compensated regardless of the quality of the loan. There’s no incentive for quality. The incentive was to fund the loan. And that’s — that’s gonna drive that type of behavior.

  30. 30
    pfft says:

    By Scotsman @ 27:

    http://www.financialsense.com/contributors/2011/12/02/ann-barnhardt/interview-transcript

    “We are now living in a lawless, Marxist, Communist, usurped, what used to be a representative republic but is no more. This is no longer a nation of laws. This has now transformed into a nation of men. It doesnâ��t matter what crime you commit. In the case of Jon Corzine, this man has stolen in excess of a billion dollars. I think by the time it is all panned out it is going to be closer to $3 billion of customer funds that he stole. Why did he do it? Is he stupid? Well, of course heâ��s not stupid. This is a former head of Goldman Sachs. This man doesnâ��t have a low IQ per se. Why in the world would a man wake up in the morning one day and say you know what, I think I am going to steal all the customer seg funds in this FCM that Iâ��m running, which is the biggest FCM in the country. Yeah, that sounds like a good plan. No. Why would a man like that even engage in a nefarious plot like this? Because he knew going into it he could get away with it. And the reason he could get away with it is he is in tight with the Obama regime. He is one of Obamaâ��s highest fundraisers. Earlier this year Jon Corzine had a fundraiser dinner at his New York City apartment for Barack Obama where it was charged at $35,000 a plate. Okay? He bundled high six figures for Obama in one evening! He is a crony of the regime. This is Marxist Communism. There is no rule of law.”

    yawns.

    I remember what a paragon of virtue the Bush years were.

  31. 31
    Blurtman says:

    RE: Tim McB @ 19 – How about this: “Honk if you are paying investors in mortgage backed securities.” Or:”Honk if you are paying folks who gambled on an asset they did not possess (AIG).”

  32. 32
    No Name Guy says:

    By pfft @ 26:

    By Blurtman @ 16:

    RE: Tim McB @ 14 – Timmy Geithner and the USG and you and your kids, your grandkids, and your entire lineage are backstopping the FHA, and also Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, etc.

    would you rather they backstop nothing and nobody has a job? we can argue the details but we had to bailout the banks.

    Actually, yes to your question there pfft. Backstop nothing. Let those that are going to fail, fail. Instead, what we have costs FAR more in bailouts, rewards ill founded risk taking, socializes losses and privatizes profits.

    And your assertion that there would be no jobs without backstops is laughable. Note how the US grew from jack spit in 1776 to THE industrial power (exceeding the UK) by WWI without Government back stopping private industry.

    As for Scotts statement at 27: Add to that GM and the UAW. Bankruptcy law was CLEAR that the UAW was well behind bond holders in terms of priority, yet decades of established law disappeared like a puff of smoke in a gale when Obama went all in to protect his cronies and screwed the bond holders. What sane man will ever, EVER, invest another dime with any industry where labor has a big influence? Not I.

    And pfft: Quit it with your childish “well Bush was worse, therefore it’s not so bad when my guy does it” bullsh*t. Wrong is wrong is wrong, period. Didn’t your mother ever teach you that two wrongs don’t make a right?

  33. 33
    Blurtman says:

    RE: pfft @ 26 – The American people overwhelmingly said “No!”

  34. 34
    Cheap South says:

    Not sure if anyone posted this before. Journalist’s rant against congress.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=M1lJd2eLG0M

  35. 35
    Chris says:

    RE: No Name Guy @ 32
    I think Pfft learned trolling from the Westboro Baptist Church. He’s in the tank for public employee unions and can’t concede any spending by the government is bad. Over the weekend he backed FNMA and FMCC buying subprime loans:

    https://seattlebubble.com/blog/2011/12/02/weekend-open-thread-2011-12-02/comment-page-1/#comment-149850

    Look at any news involving the postal service and see the swarms of union talking points. At least Pfft adds a little Krugman in there to mix it up (ok, actually a lot of Krugman).

  36. 36
    Blurtman says:

    RE: Chris @ 35 – Certainly you are not blaming the woes of the US Postal Service on the union. It seems that CONgress has screwed the US Postal Service, and intentionally at that.

    ” The Republican-imposed pre-funding requirement, which postal unions never asked for, has proven to be less a booster shot than a kiss of death. No health plan, public or private, operates under such an extreme mandate – and no government or business program is required to be fully funded 75 years ahead of time in order to be considered solvent. Republican demands to lay off 100,000 workers now so that pensions are funded for 75 years is just as cruel a joke as insisting on throwing millions of Americans off of Social Security now to improve its financial outlook for 2086.”

    http://www.alternet.org/story/152451/3_big_lies_at_the_heart_of_republican_attacks_on_the_post_office?page=2

  37. 37
    Chris says:

    RE: Blurtman @ 36
    I’m not. Frankly I don’t know much about the finances of the post office. I’m just saying Pfft is arguing off talking points from some organization – likely a union. He’ll back Obama and the Democrats no matter what. It’s propaganda.

  38. 38
    Tatiana Kalashnikov says:

    RE: Blurtman @ 36

    The USPS is an anachronism that should be euthanized. I write and mail zero checks for bills. I use FedEx and UPS when I need overnight delivery. All things must end. The U.S. Postal Service is at that point in time. (My aplologies for the big words gentlemen (it’s just men here except for me, correct?). I am practicing my English.

  39. 39
    Chris says:

    RE: Tatiana Kalashnikov @ 38 – When I was in Russia I was told that durning soviet days people joined lines they saw in the street not even knowing what it was for. Here if you see a line you know you’re at the post office.

  40. 40
    pfft says:

    By No Name Guy @ 32:

    By pfft @ 26:

    By Blurtman @ 16:

    RE: Tim McB @ 14 – Timmy Geithner and the USG and you and your kids, your grandkids, and your entire lineage are backstopping the FHA, and also Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, etc.

    would you rather they backstop nothing and nobody has a job? we can argue the details but we had to bailout the banks.

    Actually, yes to your question there pfft. Backstop nothing. Let those that are going to fail, fail. Instead, what we have costs FAR more in bailouts, rewards ill founded risk taking, socializes losses and privatizes profits.

    And your assertion that there would be no jobs without backstops is laughable. Note how the US grew from jack spit in 1776 to THE industrial power (exceeding the UK) by WWI without Government back stopping private industry.

    As for Scotts statement at 27: Add to that GM and the UAW. Bankruptcy law was CLEAR that the UAW was well behind bond holders in terms of priority, yet decades of established law disappeared like a puff of smoke in a gale when Obama went all in to protect his cronies and screwed the bond holders. What sane man will ever, EVER, invest another dime with any industry where labor has a big influence? Not I.

    And pfft: Quit it with your childish “well Bush was worse, therefore it’s not so bad when my guy does it” bullsh*t. Wrong is wrong is wrong, period. Didn’t your mother ever teach you that two wrongs don’t make a right?

    1. we backstopped nothing during the great depression, how did that work out?

    by backstopping the financial system we saved trillions of dollars and the country from a depression. this is according to mccain’s former economic adviser.

    Blinder, Zandi Say U.S. Bailouts Likely Averted a Depression
    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-07-28/blinder-zandi-say-u-s-bailouts-likely-averted-a-depression.html

    2.

    “And your assertion that there would be no jobs without backstops is laughable. ”

    obvious hyperbole to prove a point. do you remember the transcontinental railroad and the erie canal? who helped build those?

    3. “Bankruptcy law was CLEAR that the UAW was well behind bond holders in terms of priority, yet decades of established law disappeared like a puff of smoke in a gale when Obama went all in to protect his cronies and screwed the bond holders. ”

    source please. this wasn’t a regular bankuptcy. it was a pre-packaged bankruptcy that was arranged by the government. without the government stepping in to provide an emergency loan the car companies would have declared bankruptcy and bondholders would have gotten a lot less. a lot less.

    4. “Quit it with your childish “well Bush was worse, therefore it’s not so bad when my guy does it” bullsh*t. ”

    I never said anything like that. I just made the observation because the article made it sound like this all just happened when obama took office. obama has nothing to do with this so I disagree with the whole premise. corzine did what he did(what we don’t know quite yet)and it had nothing to do with obama. corzine wanted to be the next goldman sachs. he went for the stars and double down when he was wrong. that’s what happened. another example for a”Fooled by Randomness” chapter.

  41. 41
    pfft says:

    By Chris @ 35:

    RE: No Name Guy @ 32
    I think Pfft learned trolling from the Westboro Baptist Church. He’s in the tank for public employee unions and can’t concede any spending by the government is bad. Over the weekend he backed FNMA and FMCC buying subprime loans:

    https://seattlebubble.com/blog/2011/12/02/weekend-open-thread-2011-12-02/comment-page-1/#comment-149850

    Look at any news involving the postal service and see the swarms of union talking points. At least Pfft adds a little Krugman in there to mix it up (ok, actually a lot of Krugman).

    “Over the weekend he backed FNMA and FMCC buying subprime loans:”

    yeah so? I owned you over the point that the GSEs caused the subprime bubble. private sector loans defaulted at a rate 4X higher than GSE loans. if anything the GSE’s higher standards helped and not hurt the market.

    the banks and countrwide’s of the world did it to themselves through their own greed. how hard is it to make a mortgage? very hard when you can make a lot of money making risky loans.

    “He’s in the tank for public employee unions”

    when did I say that? I am for all unions though. nothing wrong with the people getting together to fight for their rights. the union movement was made possible by terrible exploitations by business and large corporations who put people before profits.

    if business can band together to form a corporation for their benefit why can’t people band together for their own benefit too?

    for every knock on unions you list I can a list many reasons why corporations cannot be trusted and must be balanced by government regulations and powerful unions.

  42. 42
    pfft says:

    By Blurtman @ 36:

    RE: Chris @ 35 – Certainly you are not blaming the woes of the US Postal Service on the union. It seems that CONgress has screwed the US Postal Service, and intentionally at that.

    ” The Republican-imposed pre-funding requirement, which postal unions never asked for, has proven to be less a booster shot than a kiss of death. No health plan, public or private, operates under such an extreme mandate â�� and no government or business program is required to be fully funded 75 years ahead of time in order to be considered solvent. Republican demands to lay off 100,000 workers now so that pensions are funded for 75 years is just as cruel a joke as insisting on throwing millions of Americans off of Social Security now to improve its financial outlook for 2086.”

    http://www.alternet.org/story/152451/3_big_lies_at_the_heart_of_republican_attacks_on_the_post_office?page=2

    good article.

  43. 43
    pfft says:

    By Chris @ 37:

    RE: Blurtman @ 36
    I’m not. Frankly I don’t know much about the finances of the post office. I’m just saying Pfft is arguing off talking points from some organization – likely a union. He’ll back Obama and the Democrats no matter what. It’s propaganda.

    that is completely not true. if you’ve been here you know that I haven’t agreed with him on a lot of things. his healthcare plan isn’t good enough. he pivoted to quickly to the deficit. he let wall street off the hook the other day.
    he hasn’t fought hard enough for democratic causes. his budgets are right-wing and he’s a terrible negotiator.

  44. 44
    Pegasus says:

    RE: Tatiana Kalashnikov @ 38 – Who will be left to deliver grocery ads and junk mail if the USPS goes down? What has Russia done to improve their poor mail service?

  45. 45
    Chris says:

    RE: pfft @ 40
    Pfft – You know I put both ends of the spectrum criticizing subprime loans themselves in my post. I put in the conservative argument (that after the GSEs got involved in subprime the market for subprime loans took off) and the liberal argument that subprime loans contributed to predatory loans. (link below). You think the government should buy subprime loans (even now!). I said that was crazy because that seemed to be the only thing both extremes could agree on – subprime loans are bad. You defeat straw men. You’re a propagandist.

    https://seattlebubble.com/blog/2011/12/02/weekend-open-thread-2011-12-02/comment-page-1/#comment-149852

  46. 46
    pfft says:

    By Chris @ 45:

    RE: pfft @ 40
    Pfft – You know I put both ends of the spectrum criticizing subprime loans themselves in my post. I put in the conservative argument (that after the GSEs got involved in subprime the market for subprime loans took off) and the liberal argument that subprime loans contributed to predatory loans. (link below). You think the government should buy subprime loans (even now!). I said that was crazy because that seemed to be the only thing both extremes could agree on – subprime loans are bad. You defeat straw men. You’re a propagandist.

    https://seattlebubble.com/blog/2011/12/02/weekend-open-thread-2011-12-02/comment-page-1/#comment-149852

    1. the GSEs did not contribute to the subprime loan mess. the private sector rushed into the sector, took the GSEs market share and made toxic loans and committed fraud to make money. private sector subprime loans were 4X as likely to default. that is the fault of the companies whose CEOs were paid tens of millions of dollar and could not make loans or do basic risk control.

    the GSEs didn’t do no doc loans. the private sector did.

    I have no problem with the government buying subprime loans as long as they prudent. the GSEs have a good record on this, especially compared to the private sector.

    “You defeat straw men.”

    where?

  47. 47
    Chris says:

    RE: pfft @ 46
    “You defeat straw men”
    where?
    Pfft – you’re joking right? You went to another straw argument. If someone thinks an insolvent government organization should buy high interest loans made to people who missed paying other obligations, that speaks for itself. You twisted the thread to your (or your organization’s) talking point which seems to be something like “Criticize private bank practices against insolvent GSEs – Make it appear the other participant in the blog endorsed the private bank’s practice.”

    You are very skilled at propaganda Pfft. Someone would have to follow the thread pretty closely to see what you’re doing.

  48. 48
    tony clifton says:

    RE: Chris @ 35

    Here’s another from the last thread from ChrisM:

    “Yeah I agree, Jon Corzine, Lawrence Summers, Robert Rubin have some explaining to do. Let’s print some more money to give them more bonuses. It was your heros who did away with Glass-Steagall and ran their firms into the ground despite their government connections. Face it, both sides of the isle have been corrupted.”

    Gramm-Leach-Bliley has magicaly been transformed into Corzine-Summers-Rubin!

    Chris, can you say dishonest? Can you say liar? Can you say tool?

    Those dudes were all Republicans and your trying to spin reality! You think that you are part of the solution? No, you are the problem! A Fox News Tool!

  49. 49
    Chris says:

    RE: tony clifton @ 48
    All crony capitalism. That’s what I was pointing too. Nice try at diversion. Did you and Pfft go to the same class on how to get people chasing their tail on a blog? No offense intended, but Pfft does a better job of it. You have to look closely through the thread to appreciate his skill.

  50. 50
    tony clifton says:

    RE: Chris @ 49

    Yeah, Nice try at diversion!

    Who is the WingNut trying to tranform Gramm-Leach-Bliley into “Corzine-Summers-Rubin”?

    Can you say “Tool”?

  51. 51
    LocalYokel says:

    It is comforting that nothing has changed here.
    Same arguments. Same bitch slapping each other
    over the same issues, that you and I have no
    influence over. Just flapping gums spitting out
    words to see who’s penis is bigger.
    Well, I will leave you all to it.

  52. 52
    Chris says:

    RE: tony clifton @ 50
    No that’s not the way you do it Tony. Look over Pfft’s posts – you first post something in response to an argument the person wasn’t making with a link to that point. Then the person either takes the bait and argues from a point of weakness or you come back and say you won the argument because the point went unchallenged (Pfft likes the term “owned”). It’s a tactic of propaganda, usually an organization with an agenda.

  53. 53
    Pegasus says:

    Thanks to exposure on 60 Minutes we might finally get some action on our Congress trading on inside information.

    “We’ve had a lot of recent converts now that the public knows what’s going on,” quips Peter Schweizer, author of Throw Them All Out, a book which — along with a subsequent 60 Minutes profile — helped focus the nation’s attention on the trading activities of sitting members of Congress.

    http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/power-people-outrage-over-insider-trading-puts-stock-124431845.html

  54. 54

    RE: Tatiana Kalashnikov @ 38

    Hi Tatiana

    The USPS is a necessary entity for getting almost all our mail picked up at our homes [private carriers don’t do this] and delivering it to our homes [even the very hard to get at]….the private sector outlets have few and remote stations [gasoline use and time] and if the USPS is gone, the lines to get a package out at these few private agencies would rival the lines you may of seen at Russian social services….or an American food bank.

    Because of the dire need to keep the USPS alive and keep our economy even sputterring….I go out of my way to send things USPS, its more convenient and the costs are comparable too.

  55. 55
    ChrisM says:

    RE: tony clifton @ 48 – Um, there are two people on this blog w/ similar handles: Chris & ChrisM. Please do not get the two mixed up. Thanks!

  56. 56
    Dirty Renter says:

    All you investors, take a look at this Seeking Alpha article written 4 months before Bank of America took over Countrywide on July 1, 2008. It’s great stuff. The comments are also revealing.
    http://seekingalpha.com/article/67428-will-bofa-really-buy-countrywide

  57. 57
    Blurtman says:

    RE: Pegasus @ 53 – Wake me when Hank Paulson is in chains.

  58. 58
    Blurtman says:

    RE: Dirty Renter @ 56 – I believe when Ken Lewis tried to back out of acquiring the Countrywide garbage barge, Bernanke and Paulson, acting as emissaries of the banking industry, threatened Lewis.

    The law was broken when Lewis failed to disclose the truth to BAC investors, who took a hosing. The stock plummeted from around $45.00 to $3.18 (January 2008 to March, 2009).

  59. 59
    wreckingbull says:

    RE: Tatiana Kalashnikov @ 38 – I get letters from my 103 year old grandmother in Spokane. In some cases, I get them in under 24 hours. Costs her 44 cents. Not unlike the Seinfeld episode, but with greenbacks, matching my age. I tell her not to do it, but she does it. She still goes to the bank and requests brand new, crisp Georgies. Never once has a letter been lost. She has been doing this for almost 5 decades.

    I’d like to see UPS and Fedex match that. I’d like to see any other government in the world match that.

    The current problems of the USPS have nothing to do with competition and everything to do with the mandate placed on them in 2006 by congress. Once again, the idiots in Washington had to intervene.

    http://www.pbs.org/wnet/need-to-know/five-things/the-u-s-postal-service/11433/

  60. 60
    Tatiana Kalashnikov says:

    RE: LocalYokel @ 51
    Boys!! No penis envy! Girls make that judgement by looking at the size of the truck you drive.

  61. 61
    Macro Investor says:

    By Blurtman @ 57:

    RE: Pegasus @ 53 – Wake me when Hank Paulson is in chains.

    Wake me when someone decides to uphold their oath to protect the constitution. I’m hoping it will be the military.

  62. 62
    ChrisM says:

    Maybe Seattle real estate will flourish again as Oregon bloggers flock to Washington for safe haven:

    http://blogs.seattleweekly.com/dailyweekly/2011/12/unlike_oregon_bloggers_are_jou.php

Leave a Reply

Use your email address to sign up with Gravatar for a custom avatar.
Your email address will not be published.

You may use these HTML tags and attributes: <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <s> <strike> <strong>

Please read the rules before posting a comment.