Mid-Week Open Thread (2011-12-21)

Here is your open thread for the mid-week on December 21st, 2011. You may post random links and off-topic discussions here. Also, if you have an idea or a topic you’d like to see covered in an article, please make it known.

Be sure to also check out the forums, and get your word in the user-driven discussions there!

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About The Tim

Tim Ellis is the founder of Seattle Bubble. His background in engineering and computer / internet technology, a fondness of data-based analysis of problems, and an addiction to spreadsheets all influence his perspective on the Seattle-area real estate market. Tim also hosts the weekly improv comedy sci-fi podcast Dispatches from the Multiverse.

67 comments:

  1. 1
  2. 2

    RE: Bingo @ 1 – That type of data is nearly worthless, even ignoring the problems NAR has had with it’s accuracy.

  3. 3

    The Bluist Skies Ya Ever Saw Aren’t in Seattle?

    People are giving up with high cost urban areas with peanut pay, sound’s like Seattle to SWE.

    Article:

    “…New York, California and other high- cost U.S. states may lose residents…continuing a trend during the past decade of Americans searching for more affordable regions to settle….”

    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/u-population-migrates-income-boost-120001100.html

    IMO, the only thing that’s keeping this from going full bore in Seattle is underwater home loans, they can’t afford to sell and move. Young adults that have plain given up looking for work and haven’t looked for work the last 4 weeks, yet are living in their parents’ Seattle area basement, can’t be counted and are removed from the U3/U6 unemployment rates. I hear of many of them eventually migrating the Hades out of here…how about the rest of you Bubbleheads?

    I have a friend who’s an experienced and licensed caregiver CNA and got a stroke last Feb, she’s getting job seeking assistance from the University of Washington to find a health care job, hades, any job…the best she could land this year was a $8/hr P/T Macy’s job, which her doctor told her was too stressful for her [let alone a complete joke]. I don’t know how she pays her $1550/mo Seattle city rent or feeds her two kids….her third child, a son, migrated to the midwest, after this 25 YO went without work in Seattle for 2 years [living with mom]…..its a Latino family BTW.

  4. 4

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 2
    Yes Kary

    IMO, almost all the recent government data related to the economy needs thorough massaging and re-analyzing before you can even begin to use it….and even then, its a wild a_s guess.

    I think just looking out the window and using common sense gut feel makes more sense than relying solely on this faulty and misleading MSM brainwashing data…

  5. 5
    David Losh says:

    RE: softwarengineer @ 3

    “its a Latino family BTW”

    Is that really a BTW or your entire point.

    Seattle has become a high tech center that most other cities would envy.

  6. 6

    RE: David Losh @ 5

    Just Like California’s High Tech David?

    Let’s face it, high tech today is just another outsource/insource wage degradation cess pool, ask Bill Gates.

  7. 7

    RE: David Losh @ 5

    Unemployment Numbers for Latino are Among the Highest in America

    In Seattle too, I imagine.

  8. 8

    RE: David Losh @ 5

    But Not to Worry David

    The Boeing Machinists’ starting pay [the high BTW] of approx $15/hr will provide plenty of income to buy Seattle museum pieces for a half million dollars. Have you heard that GM is now paying their small car workers $9/hr with no benefits too?

    http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090318152015AA56GxS

  9. 9
    Blurtman says:

    RE: softwarengineer @ 3 – From Latinia? Perhaps work as a Latin tutor can be found.

  10. 10
    WoodinRenter says:

    Existing home sales during the housing bust were actually 14.3% worse than previously reported, a revision to Realtors’ group numbers shows.
    On Wednesday, the National Association of Realtors (NAR) revised home sale counts back to 2007 due to flaws in their original data analysis.

    http://money.cnn.com/2011/12/21/real_estate/home_sales_revised/index.htm?iid=Lead

    It is just appalling that how politicians and trade groups alike are manipulating these numbers.

  11. 11
    Scotsman says:

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/us-housing-market-was-artificially-inflated-14-2007-2010-nar-reports

    EXISTING U.S. HOME SALES REVISED DOWN BY 14% FROM 2007-2010
    EXISTING HOME SALES REVISED DOWN BY 15% IN 2010 TO 4.19 MLN

    Thank you NAR for proving what everyone knew: that the US housing market is one big lie. And next: here come the historical GDP revisions

  12. 12

    RE: Scotsman @ 10 – Thank you for posting this information in the fourth thread here in the past week, and the second time in this thread. If it weren’t for your post, no one would know about it. /sarc

  13. 13
    Scotsman says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 11

    Just for you- I thought you might have missed it since you were so busy winning firends and influencing people all over the web. Or maybe you were too busy listing and selling houses?

  14. 14
    Chris says:

    RE: Scotsman @ 10
    Do you have any ideas why the NAR came clean on the numbers now? I suppose with data companies now able to compile numbers through the county recorder it was harder to play around with them, but lately it seems the NAR is gearing up for something.

    – Vague Downer Ads: For the first time in generations, the American dream of homeownership is being threatened http://www.realtor.org/pac.nsf/pages/pachome
    – Home Ownership Matters Bus Tour – http://realtors.org/topics/bustour2011
    – FHA a** kissing- http://www.realtor.org/press_room/news_releases/2011/12/fha_single-family_insurance_fund

    I put on my tinfoil hat and guess they are gearing up for a fight over an increasingly likely FHA bail out:
    http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-12-06/fha-insurance-fund-may-need-fannie-like-bailout-hensarling-says.html

  15. 15

    RE: Blurtman @ 9

    No F/T Jobs in Seattle City Central Blurtman

    Better luck looking where people haven’t doubled or trippled [gobbled ’em all up] per capita incomes per household, just to survive….

    The King County suburbs with a bit less population density have a better chance…

  16. 16

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 11

    Yes Kary and Scotsman

    SWE calls it Ouja Board lies, I’d call it data, buts with Ouja Boards, we all know someone is pushing the pointer where they want it….a better comparison.

  17. 17
    pfft says:

    what do bankers have to do to go to jail?

    Countrywide Agrees To $335 Million Settlement Over Discriminatory Subprime Loans
    http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/12/countrywide_agrees_to_settlement_over_discriminatory_subprime_loans.php?ref=fpnewsfeed

    where are all of our resident banker apologists to tell us it was all the fault of the government?

  18. 18
    pfft says:

    By Scotsman @ 10:

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/us-housing-market-was-artificially-inflated-14-2007-2010-nar-reports

    EXISTING U.S. HOME SALES REVISED DOWN BY 14% FROM 2007-2010
    EXISTING HOME SALES REVISED DOWN BY 15% IN 2010 TO 4.19 MLN

    Thank you NAR for proving what everyone knew: that the US housing market is one big lie. And next: here come the historical GDP revisions

    I am not sure I want to ask but why is GDP wrong?

  19. 19
    pfft says:

    By Kary L. Krismer @ 11:

    RE: Scotsman @ 10 – Thank you for posting this information in the fourth thread here in the past week, and the second time in this thread. If it weren’t for your post, no one would know about it. /sarc

    OH SNAP!

  20. 20

    RE: pfft @ 15

    Hades Pfft

    They don’t need to, the government makes sure to hire the banksters to manage the mess and mix ’em all in together…

  21. 21
    Chris says:

    RE: softwarengineer @ 19
    It’s called crony capitalism, Here’s the Venn diagram for Goldman Sachs. There’s similar charts for GE, Big Oil etc. They also take over the regulatory agencies (Comptroller, OTS etc). Democrat, Republican – I don’t know if one is worse than the other.

    http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/2011/12/crony-capitalism-displayed-via-venn.html

  22. 22
    Chris says:

    RE: softwarengineer @ 19

    “When you’re successful it brings envy,” John “Where’s-the-billion” Corzine said in a Bloomberg interview discussing Goldman Sachs.
    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aS.OiK9HCiQM

  23. 23
    Chris says:

    RE: pfft @ 17

    “resident banker apologists”

    Ok, name who you are talking about and point to the comments you take as an “apology” for bankers.

  24. 24
    Scotsman says:

    RE: pfft @ 18

    “I am not sure I want to ask but why is GDP wrong?”

    Seriously? (Bangs head on table- several times).

    Home sales are counted in GDP. SFH real estate has traditionally represented about 6% of GDP. NAR’s little game would mean 2010 GDP was over-stated by almost 1%.

  25. 25
    One Eyed Man says:

    RE: Scotsman @ 24

    Please tell me that BEA doesn’t use NAR data to calculate GDP. That would be a little like bobbing for apples in the toilet. Just thinking about it leaves a bad taste in my mouth and leaves me yearning for a level of data integrity that makes Claim Jumpers food appear to be gourmet repast.

    Ironically, if BEA data was corrupted due to overstated housing data, lower GDP for past quarters might increase the rate of YOY GDP growth in current quarters assuming the upward error in calculation was present in 2007 to 2010, but not in 2011. Perhaps this bag of sh__ has a somewhat soiled silver lining when looking at current GDP trend.

  26. 26
    Chris says:

    RE: One Eyed Man @ 25

    Wow, Scotsman’s right. The BEA does use NAR stats to calculate GDP.

    API – American Petroleum Institute
    BEA – Bureau of Economic Analysis
    BLS – Bureau of Labor Statistics
    Census – Census Bureau
    CPI – Consumer Price Index – All urban consumers
    DOD – Department of Defense
    DOT – Department of Transportation
    DT – Department of the Treasury
    EIA – Energy Information Administration
    FDIC – Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation
    FRB – Federal Reserve Board
    IBTS – Institute for Building Technology & Safety
    JD Power – J.D. Power and Associates, Power Information Network
    NAR – National Association of Realtors
    NIPA – National income and product accounts
    NJCCC – State of New Jersey Casino Control Commission
    NVGCB – Nevada Gaming Control Board
    Polk – R. L. Polk & Company
    PPI – Producer Price Index
    STR – Smith Travel Research
    Ward’s – Ward’s Automotive Reports

    I don’t know how much this affects the final number but you really wonder what other cooked numbers the BEA relies on. Since the FED and Treasury fight any Freedom of Information Act request tooth and nail what other shoes will drop?
    http://www.bea.gov/national/txt/gdp-srce.txt

  27. 27

    By Chris @ 14:

    RE: Scotsman @ 10
    Do you have any ideas why the NAR came clean on the numbers now? I suppose with data companies now able to compile numbers through the county recorder it was harder to play around with them, but lately it seems the NAR is gearing up for something.

    What makes little sense to me is that I think they are only going back to 2007, and then saying the downturn is worse than we thought. The numbers prior to 2007 were probably just as bad, if not worse. Assuming mergers of local MLS, the numbers probably got better after 2007.

    And really, I doubt the adjusted numbers are accurate either.

  28. 28

    By pfft @ 17:

    what do bankers have to do to go to jail?

    Countrywide Agrees To $335 Million Settlement Over Discriminatory Subprime Loans
    http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/12/countrywide_agrees_to_settlement_over_discriminatory_subprime_loans.php?ref=fpnewsfeed

    where are all of our resident banker apologists to tell us it was all the fault of the government?

    I’m not sure there’s a jail type crime there. I’m not even sure it’s a crime. You can’t send people to jail just because after the fact you decide you don’t like them. That’s what they do in banana republics.

    In any case, do realize that this is actually a settlement with BoA who bought CW. They’re paying for CW’s mess, even though they didn’t do it. It came with buying CW.

  29. 29

    By Scotsman @ 24:

    RE: pfft @ 18

    “I am not sure I want to ask but why is GDP wrong?”

    Seriously? (Bangs head on table- several times).

    Home sales are counted in GDP. SFH real estate has traditionally represented about 6% of GDP. NAR’s little game would mean 2010 GDP was over-stated by almost 1%.

    GDP almost certainly isn’t calculated from NAR figures. Edit: I just read Chris’ link which indicates otherwise. That’s shocking! And J.D. Powers?????

    I’ll agree though. GDP is a seriously messed up number. Raise the price of oil and GDP goes up.

  30. 30
    Chris says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 29
    I never thought of the price of gas and how it could juice GDP. But they must exclude foreign oil imports wouldn’t they? Then again they refine it in Houston so maybe it’s calculated as an American “product”.

  31. 31
    Scotsman says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 29

    OMG Kary was wrong- caught with his pants down. Of course, no admission will be forthcoming . . . ;-)

  32. 32
    Chris says:

    Another odd “product” – “total gaming win revenue” reported by gambling authorities in NJ and NV supposedly contributes to GDP. I’m guessing they don’t offset it by losses. I didn’t think I needed another reason not to trust the GDP figures but here it is.

  33. 33
    Scotsman says:

    RE: Chris @ 14

    I don’t know why now. They clearly have a credibility problem- maybe they want to work on their image. The ads are just wierd.

    Never rule out gross incompetence and/or just plain bad management.

  34. 34
    pfft says:

    By Scotsman @ 24:

    RE: pfft @ 18

    “I am not sure I want to ask but why is GDP wrong?”

    Seriously? (Bangs head on table- several times).

    Home sales are counted in GDP. SFH real estate has traditionally represented about 6% of GDP. NAR’s little game would mean 2010 GDP was over-stated by almost 1%.

    source please.

  35. 35
    pfft says:

    By Kary L. Krismer @ 29:

    By Scotsman @ 24:

    RE: pfft @ 18

    “I am not sure I want to ask but why is GDP wrong?”

    Seriously? (Bangs head on table- several times).

    Home sales are counted in GDP. SFH real estate has traditionally represented about 6% of GDP. NAR’s little game would mean 2010 GDP was over-stated by almost 1%.

    GDP almost certainly isn’t calculated from NAR figures. Edit: I just read Chris’ link which indicates otherwise. That’s shocking! And J.D. Powers?????

    I’ll agree though. GDP is a seriously messed up number. Raise the price of oil and GDP goes up.

    and lower it and it goes down…

  36. 36
    Macro Investor says:

    By Kary L. Krismer @ 12:

    RE: Scotsman @ 10 – Thank you for posting this information in the fourth thread here in the past week, and the second time in this thread. If it weren’t for your post, no one would know about it. /sarc

    Thank you Kary for explaining what a median is on almost every thread in history. If it weren’t for your post no one would know about that.

  37. 37
    Scotsman says:

    RE: One Eyed Man @ 25

    ” bobbing for apples in the toilet. ”

    Hey, I think I went to that party too, but I can’t remember. . . ;-) Love ya!

  38. 38
    Pegasus says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 29 – That’s what you get when you open your yap and you have no idea what you are talking about, again and again. Its makes you look extremely stupid, Kary. If you feel you must comment authoritatively on every subject broached here try doing some research first before you expound endlessly while showing everyone how really dumb you are.

  39. 39

    RE: Scotsman @ 24
    The Big Reason Current GDP Data is really More Ouja Board Lies, IMO

    They have totally eliminated our crumbling infrastructure [ya know things like bridges, pot holed roads/sidewalks, electrical grids on the brink and old leaky 1920 water/sewer lines] and the fact that even a lion’s share of our dinky manufacturing base uses wore out equipment too…that doesn’t count they say….

  40. 40
    No Name Guy says:

    RE: pfft @ 34

    See the link at

    RE: Chris @ 26

  41. 41

    By Scotsman @ 31:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 29

    OMG Kary was wrong- caught with his pants down. Of course, no admission will be forthcoming . . . ;-)

    Did you miss the edit? I corrected it almost right away–within the 15 minute edit period.

    Still I find it shocking that they use any trade group for source data. That seems almost per se irresponsible.

  42. 42

    By pfft @ 35:

    By Kary L. Krismer @ 29:

    By Scotsman @ 24:

    RE: pfft @ 18

    “I am not sure I want to ask but why is GDP wrong?”

    Seriously? (Bangs head on table- several times).

    Home sales are counted in GDP. SFH real estate has traditionally represented about 6% of GDP. NAR’s little game would mean 2010 GDP was over-stated by almost 1%.

    GDP almost certainly isn’t calculated from NAR figures. Edit: I just read Chris’ link which indicates otherwise. That’s shocking! And J.D. Powers?????

    I’ll agree though. GDP is a seriously messed up number. Raise the price of oil and GDP goes up.

    and lower it and it goes down…

    True, but the period I was thinking of specifically was 2008, just before the crisis. What would GDP have shown for 2007 and 2008 if you backed out the impact of record high oil prices? Was the economy really in much worse shape than we thought?

  43. 43

    By Macro Investor @ 36:

    By Kary L. Krismer @ 12:

    RE: Scotsman @ 10 – Thank you for posting this information in the fourth thread here in the past week, and the second time in this thread. If it weren’t for your post, no one would know about it. /sarc

    Thank you Kary for explaining what a median is on almost every thread in history. If it weren’t for your post no one would know about that.

    To the extent I do that, it would be in response to someone who posts something indicating that they don’t understand it. I remember I did that once in response to Ardell, which I found a bit shocking.

  44. 44

    By Pegasus @ 38:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 29 – That’s what you get when you open your yap and you have no idea what you are talking about, again and again. Its makes you look extremely stupid, Kary. If you feel you must comment authoritatively on every subject broached here try doing some research first before you expound endlessly while showing everyone how really dumb you are.

    Again you need to learn to read. I what I said was “almost certainly.” That means I didn’t know for sure.

    How do you function in life being illiterate? And with no brain cells?

  45. 45
    Dirty Renter says:

    RE: Scotsman @ 24
    Could you please provide a link where existing home sales are counted in the GDP? I can understand new home sales being included, but can’t understand how existing home sales would be included.

  46. 46
    Dirty Renter says:

    New home construction, as well as home improvements, mobile home manufacturing & broker’s commissions are included in the GDP figures.
    Homes sales are not included…..but they are used in calculating aforementioned broker’s commissions.
    Economics is hard…….especially when they make up the rules as they go!
    That is all.

  47. 47
    wreckingbull says:

    RE: Dirty Renter @ 45 – They use NAR data, but I am almost certain they don’t count used home sales.

    From the doc referenced above,

    http://www.bea.gov/national/txt/gdp-srce.txt

    The only data source from the NAR is broker’s commission data: “Brokers’ commissions on sale of structures”

  48. 48
    Pegasus says:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 44 – I guess you don’t understand that posting “almost certainly” was a weak attempt by you to hijack the conversation and to attempt to dispute the truth with brute baloney. You should market your baloney. “Kary’s Baloney”…made from bullsheet, no brains were used in it’s manufacture.

  49. 49
    pfft says:

    score one for humans and regulation! EPA is going to regulate mercury.

    The Meaning of Mercury
    http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/12/22/the-meaning-of-mercury/

    this will save the people tens of billions of dollars a year in health costs.

  50. 50
    pfft says:

    By No Name Guy @ 40:

    RE: pfft @ 34

    See the link at

    RE: Chris @ 26

    these housing revisions will have basically no impact on GDP.

    Impact of NAR Revisions on GDP
    http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2011/12/impact-of-nar-revisions-on-gdp.html

  51. 51
    pfft says:

    By softwarengineer @ 39:

    RE: Scotsman @ 24
    The Big Reason Current GDP Data is really More Ouja Board Lies, IMO

    They have totally eliminated our crumbling infrastructure [ya know things like bridges, pot holed roads/sidewalks, electrical grids on the brink and old leaky 1920 water/sewer lines] and the fact that even a lion’s share of our dinky manufacturing base uses wore out equipment too…that doesn’t count they say….

    source please.

  52. 52
    pfft says:

    By Kary L. Krismer @ 42:

    By pfft @ 35:

    By Kary L. Krismer @ 29:

    By Scotsman @ 24:

    RE: pfft @ 18

    “I am not sure I want to ask but why is GDP wrong?”

    Seriously? (Bangs head on table- several times).

    Home sales are counted in GDP. SFH real estate has traditionally represented about 6% of GDP. NAR’s little game would mean 2010 GDP was over-stated by almost 1%.

    GDP almost certainly isn’t calculated from NAR figures. Edit: I just read Chris’ link which indicates otherwise. That’s shocking! And J.D. Powers?????

    I’ll agree though. GDP is a seriously messed up number. Raise the price of oil and GDP goes up.

    and lower it and it goes down…

    True, but the period I was thinking of specifically was 2008, just before the crisis. What would GDP have shown for 2007 and 2008 if you backed out the impact of record high oil prices? Was the economy really in much worse shape than we thought?

    but again if we add lower oil prices during the great recession does that make the recession look better?

  53. 53
  54. 54

    By pfft @ 52:

    but again if we add lower oil prices during the great recession does that make the recession look better?

    Probably, but does it matter? If you know your speedometer is inaccurately indicating increases and decreases in speed, is it useful at all?

  55. 55
    Pegasus says:

    RE: pfft @ 49 – I will believe that when they stop fluoridating our drinking water. It’s obvious you have gotten an overdose. I wonder what industry promoted this change? Competition of the coal industry? Higher prices all around for energy coming. Will they finally stop dentists from using mercury in our fillings? No? Will they stop promoting using toxic mercury light bulbs in our homes? No?

  56. 56
    pfft says:

    By Pegasus @ 55:

    RE: pfft @ 49 – I will believe that when they stop fluoridating our drinking water. It’s obvious you have gotten an overdose. I wonder what industry promoted this change? Competition of the coal industry? Higher prices all around for energy coming. Will they finally stop dentists from using mercury in our fillings? No? Will they stop promoting using toxic mercury light bulbs in our homes? No?

    oh boy on the flouride…

    “Higher prices all around for energy coming.”

    no it means that corporations won’t pollute for free and harm other citizens’ health. this is pretty much the definition of an externality. people will have to pay the true cost of their energy instead of passing it a long to others.

    this will save lives, health and billions of dollars.

  57. 57

    RE: pfft @ 51

    Common Knowledge Pfft

    Ya got Google, look it up yourself.

  58. 58
    pfft says:

    By softwarengineer @ 57:

    RE: pfft @ 51

    Common Knowledge Pfft

    Ya got Google, look it up yourself.

    source please.

    am I the the only one who doesn’t cry when asked for a souce?

  59. 59
    Cheap South says:

    RE: Pegasus @ 55

    Coal power plants are the reason most fish have mercury. Cancer rates around coal power plants are much greater than in the rest of the population.

    Electricity power going up? So? Do you feed your kids Clorox because is much cheaper than milk? The excuse is always “prices will go up”. Don’t raise the minimum wage “because prices will go up”. Well, the worst anti-business move was to abolish slavery. Can you imagine the increase in food cost? Let’s bring it back!! Never mind, it won’t be long before one of the nutcases in the GOP will suggest it.

    And by the way; the mercury in a light bulb is less than what’s in the tuna sandwich you are eating.

  60. 60
    wreckingbull says:

    By Cheap South @ 59:

    RE: Pegasus @ 55

    And by the way; the mercury in a light bulb is less than what’s in the tuna sandwich you are eating.

    What is your source for that statement? I’d say that a CFL bulb contains about 100 times the mercury of a 100g of Atlantic tuna, the worst kind.

  61. 61
    pfft says:

    By Pegasus @ 55:

    RE: pfft @ 49Will they stop promoting using toxic mercury light bulbs in our homes? No?

    some mercury may be released and harm you if you break a CFL. however through reduced emissions there is less carbon released into the air. they are also using less mercury in CFLs.

    unlike some people I don’t need to be prodded for a source and nor will I whine if asked.

    Thanks to technology advances and a commitment from members of the National Electrical Manufacturers Association, the average mercury content in CFLs has dropped at least 20 percent or more in the past several years. Some manufacturers have even made further reductions, dropping mercury content to 1 mg per light bulb.

    As shown in the table below, a 13-watt, 8,000-rated-hour-life CFL (60-watt equivalent; a common light bulb type) will save 376 kWh over its lifetime, thus avoiding 4.3 mg of mercury. If the bulb goes to a landfill, overall emissions savings would drop a little, to 3.9 mg. EPA recommends that CFLs are recycled where possible, to maximize mercury savings.

    http://www.energystar.gov/ia/partners/promotions/change_light/downloads/Fact_Sheet_Mercury.pdf

    see how easy that is?

  62. 62
    Pegasus says:

    RE: pfft @ 61 – Nonsense. Comparing non-mercury containing bulbs with mercury containing ones and claiming the mercury containing ones produce less mercury in the environment is junk science at its finest. Keep drinking that fluoridated water with your pink Kool Aid. This is the same type of bullcrap that the global warming crowd spread to market highly lucrative carbon credits at the expense of the masses.

  63. 63
    Pegasus says:

    RE: Cheap South @ 59 – Source please. I use mercury bulbs at home. None have lasted more than 3 years under light usage and many have shattered contaminating us with mercury. Many fail within a year. Who are you and pfft kidding? It is another crap congressional financial boon for their friends perpetrated upon the public.

  64. 64
    Natalia Orinko says:

    RE: Pegasus @ 62
    RE: pfft @ 61

    I so remember the scene in The 40 Year Old Virgin where the salesmen were breaking the fluorescent bulbs over each other’s legs! Please believe me when I tell you this – in America you are trying to be green, but in places like Russia they still pour poisons into the earth. It is so sad because they don’t care.

  65. 65
    pfft says:

    By Pegasus @ 62:

    RE: pfft @ 61 – Nonsense. Comparing non-mercury containing bulbs with mercury containing ones and claiming the mercury containing ones produce less mercury in the environment is junk science at its finest.

    how? when the amount of mercury pollution not released is factored in because of the efficiency of the CFLs less mercury is in the environment. if the CFL bulb is recycled virtually no mercury is released. anyone with common sense can figure this out.

    “This is the same type of bullcrap that the global warming crowd spread to market highly lucrative carbon credits at the expense of the masses.”

    97% of scientists believe in global warming and the amount of warming that has occurred is statistically significant. global warming is real.

  66. 66
    pfft says:

    By Pegasus @ 63:

    RE: Cheap South @ 59 – Source please. I use mercury bulbs at home. None have lasted more than 3 years under light usage and many have shattered contaminating us with mercury. Many fail within a year. Who are you and pfft kidding? It is another crap congressional financial boon for their friends perpetrated upon the public.

    see you’re just straight trolling right there. I’ve never had any break and they last pretty much forever as fall as lightbulbs go. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve bumped an incandescent lamp and it’s broke. they are much more fragile.

  67. 67
    Pegasus says:

    RE: pfft @ 66 – Confronting posters with the truth is somehow becomes trolling?

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