Posted by: The Tim

Tim Ellis is the founder of Seattle Bubble. His background in engineering and computer / internet technology, a fondness of data-based analysis of problems, and an addiction to spreadsheets all influence his perspective on the Seattle-area real estate market.

95 responses to “Friday Flashback: NAR Propaganda Montage”

  1. Feedback

    Congratulations to Tim on having outsmarted the National Association of Realtors! Those commercials sure are stupid.

    Thank you also to Washington Lawyers Realty, LLC, ValueAppeal, Sound Housing Quarterly, Redfin, and viewers like me for helping Seattle Bubble stay online.

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  2. Jeff Murdock

    So, Ms. Realtor, tell me again about this whole “doubling every 10 years” thing.

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  3. JoeBlow

    The blatant lies that the US allows in advertising is beyond me…

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  4. toad37

    Sickening..

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  5. ray pepper

    RE: Feedback @ 1

    What has RedFin done for Seattle Bubble to keep it “on-line.” ??

    Sound Housing Quarterly IS Tim so nothing there.

    As for WA LAW some would say they harmed Seattle Bubble by getting Tim into a home and into DEBT…Just food for thought!

    Not sure what you gave Tim but I assure you it’s not better then The 500 Realty Feast at Claim Jumper with Ira. When we left Tim was filled with inspiration and motivational drive!

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  6. ARDELL

    I have this vague picture of me in a rocking chair in 2035 reading the Seattle Bubble headline “We’re 2% down from peak”.

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  7. Scotsman

    RE: ray pepper @ 5

    ” When we left Tim was filled with inspiration and motivational drive! ”

    What, trying to beat you and Ira to the men’s room? Cheezy Fries- so good, so dangerous. . . on the ride home.

    Those ads make you long for the good old days- easy money. Even dumb people could get rich- happy families driving fancy new cars, vacations in exotic locations, cheerful banter about rising equity and grand plans for even more leverage at the neighborhood block parties. Granite, granite, everywhere- set off with splashes of gleaming stainless streel and commercial grade appliances. Seattle just seemed so much more “special” back then.

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  8. ARDELL

    RE: Scotsman @ 7

    …and still…the grand lesson to be learned…is buy the best house in the best location in the best schools your money can buy…without granite counters or stainless steel appliances or any expensive finishes that will be “dated” by the time you sell.

    When and where will people “learn” that? Not on SB.

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  9. Pegasus

    This is great. Love that Uncle Sam $8000 tax credit one to line the real estate industry pockets paid for by us of course.

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  10. Ira Sacharoff

    RE: Scotsman @ 7
    If I recall correctly, The Tim ordered carefully and ate something like a sandwich on whole grain bread. I don’t recall him being filled with motivational drive. Maybe motivational drivel.
    Sadly for me, I can eat just about anything and never get sick.
    As far as Ardell’s comment at @8, “best” is very subjective. Everybody’s needs are different. When my wife and I were last looking for a house, the kids were done with school so we didn’t care about ” the best” schools, and didn’t care about ” the best” house, just something comfortable. We wanted something within about a 20 minute drive from downtown Seattle that had big garden space.
    People enjoy living in the Seattle city limits, and prices are very high, even in neighborhoods with crappy schools.
    What’s ” the best”?
    Code words for ” make sure you buy a house that costs a lot of money?”

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  11. Cher

    I saw that commercial on TV last night and I was incredulous! How about stringing some facts together that are actually relevant? Like the ratio of jobs lost to foreclosures?? As far as I’m concerned, NAR is the equivalent of a criminal organization.

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  12. Pegasus

    By Cher @ 11:

    I saw that commercial on TV last night and I was incredulous! How about stringing some facts together that are actually relevant? Like the ratio of jobs lost to foreclosures?? As far as I’m concerned, NAR is the equivalent of a criminal organization.

    Kary says there is nothing criminal anywhere going on when it comes to the kleptocracy at work. It is all just bad luck, document mistakes and timing.

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  13. Tim McB

    Its almost like watching the progression of the bust. First, the bit home prices will double about every 10 years, the high point of initial denial. Then, the next denial 8 out of 10 economists think that home prices will be higher in 5 years (translation things suck now but it’ll get better a little later.) Weren’t these the same economists that missed the initial bust? Why should we believe them now? Then the last one, okay, okay, the house market is in the pooper but if you buy a house you might make a couple Realtors, a highly leveraged RE speculator or an over-refinanced boomer about to retire a few bucks. I mean get hard working Americans jobs and apple pie or something. Pretty interesting how the spin goes.

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  14. Kary L. Krismer

    RE: Pegasus @ 12 – Peganutcase likes to mis-state my positions. For example, I’m pretty sure I’ve stated that falsely notarizing a document is a crime. But hey, Peganucase watched 90 minutes of Inside Job, so he undoubtedly can site to dozens of crimes committed by bank officers. Oh, wait, Inside Job didn’t specify any crimes–just a bunch of nonsense allegations, like what Peganutcase likes to make. No wonder he liked that mockumentary.

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  15. patient

    How can you ever repair the reputation of any profession related to that pathetic organization, in short, you can’t.

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  16. ARDELL

    RE: patient @ 15

    Milk…it builds strong bones and does a body good (forget about dairy allergies)

    Beef! It’s what’s for dinner! (forget clogged arteries and killing baby cows)

    Buy a House…it helps make America stronger. (forget you may lose your shirt)

    They are all “commercials”. What’s the difference one to another?

    Are any commercials designed to make you go buy something “credible”? They are designed to make you go do something you may or may not be inclined to do if there were no commercial.

    Isn’t that the definition of “a commercial”?

    Milk advertisements are paid for by people who produce and sell milk.

    Beef advertisements are paid for by people who produce and sell beef.

    Housing advertisements are paid for by people who need to make and sell more houses.

    Rent, be a vegetarian and drink water..are also options. There just aren’t as many commercials for those things.

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  17. Blurtman

    The montage is almost as unseemly as the illegitimate suspension of mark-to-market accounting.

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  18. Blurtman

    RE: ARDELL @ 16 – You left out “Change you can believe in.”

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  19. patient

    RE: ARDELL @ 16

    The difference??? Do you really have to ask. Only one is part of a scheme that has caused incredible damage to individuals, corporatiions, countries and the world as a whole. It amazes me that these crocks has not quietly dissolved and dissapeared. But no they still go on spewing the same poisonous lies with no remorse or responsibility in the hope to hook more people on a poor leveraged investment. When was the last time you borrowed a couple of years salaries to buy milk or beef?

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  20. Macro Investor

    By ARDELL @ 6:

    I have this vague picture of me in a rocking chair in 2035 reading the Seattle Bubble headline “We’re 2% down from peak”.

    By then, you Kary and Pega_??? (sus or nutcase) will be in couples counseling and still having the same arguments. Is the video good or bad, and which statistics should contain which minutiae?

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  21. Pegasus

    By ARDELL @ 16:

    RE: patient @ 15

    Milk…it builds strong bones and does a body good (forget about dairy allergies)

    Beef! It’s what’s for dinner! (forget clogged arteries and killing baby cows)

    Buy a House…it helps make America stronger. (forget you may lose your shirt)

    They are all “commercials”. What’s the difference one to another?

    Are any commercials designed to make you go buy something “credible”? They are designed to make you go do something you may or may not be inclined to do if there were no commercial.

    Isn’t that the definition of “a commercial”?

    Milk advertisements are paid for by people who produce and sell milk.

    Beef advertisements are paid for by people who produce and sell beef.

    Housing advertisements are paid for by people who need to make and sell more houses.

    Rent, be a vegetarian and drink water..are also options. There just aren’t as many commercials for those things.

    That has to the worst case evah given to defend improper behavior. The NAR constantly lied and mislead the public and they continue to do so today. You have learned nothing from the great crisis that is unfolding other than to keep on spinning reality.

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  22. Macro Investor

    By Jeff Murdock @ 2:

    So, Ms. Realtor, tell me again about this whole “doubling every 10 years” thing.

    You weren’t listening. They also said “every market’s different”. See, just your bad luck being in the wrong place.

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  23. David Losh

    RE: Macro Investor @ 22

    The first time I heard that Real Estate doubles in price every ten years was during a conversation with a long, long time Real Estate agent. He said it, and I just looked at him, like he was joking. When he didn’t continue, I said,”Come on, you know that’s not true, Real Estate has always been said to appreciate about 4% per year.”

    He visibly changed when he answered, “you’re right, it keeps pace with inflation.”

    It was the fact that those in the industry also get brain washed that I took away from that exchange, and him also, I think.

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  24. ARDELL

    RE: patient @ 19

    Actually…there are likely more people “appalled” at the BEEF commercial.

    If there are e-coli breakouts…does that make the beef industry’s commercial responsible for the people who ate THAT beef or responsible for the e-coli damage? I doubt it.

    Is a beef commercial going to cause a vegetarian to eat beef?

    The National Association of Realtors (of which I am not a member) is a TRADE Association. Members of that Association pay for those commercials, the same way other “trades” support their members with advertising.

    It is the definition of advertising.

    I guess the government can ban certain kinds of ads…like they did cigarette ads. But not likely they are going to ban real estate ads.

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  25. Pegasus

    By ARDELL @ 24:

    RE: patient @ 19

    Actually…there are likely more people “appalled” at the BEEF commercial.

    If there are e-coli breakouts…does that make the beef industry’s commercial responsible for the people who ate THAT beef or responsible for the e-coli damage? I doubt it.

    Is a beef commercial going to cause a vegetarian to eat beef?

    The National Association of Realtors (of which I am not a member) is a TRADE Association. Members of that Association pay for those commercials, the same way other “trades” support their members with advertising.

    It is the definition of advertising.

    I guess the government can ban certain kinds of ads…like they did cigarette ads. But not likely they are going to ban real estate ads.

    I think what you are saying is that there are other crooks and liars in other industries so it is OK for the real estate industry to be crooks and liars? It is up to the government to stop it?

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  26. ARDELL

    RE: Pegasus @ 21

    My point is people have to stop thinking that “a NAR” is some kind of public interest group. They are a trade association supporting a business, the same as any other commercial.

    Liquor ads say Don’t Drink and Drive…Drink Responsibly…but they still advertise their product for business reasons.

    How many people die from a drunk driver every year or liver disease? How many people’s lives are destroyed by alchohol…and the lives of their families? Someone’s still selling liquor and the beer commercials usually make it to the Super Bowl Ads.

    Why is a real estate industry ad worse than a beer commercial? Are the women not hot enough…the ads not cool enough…the copy not funny enough.

    It’s not a news report. It’s a “COMMERCIAL”.

    Maybe we can put a warning label on every house…oh yeah…there’s already piles of disclosures and warnings about what happens if you can’t make the payment when you buy a house or if you don’t thoroughly inspect it before you buy it.

    The day you see a “DON’T BUY BEER!” commercial paid for by a beer company…let me know.

    Given a choice between enticing people to drink alcohol or buy a house…I’d still side with buying the house over drinking yourself into a stupor and killing someone with your car or beating your wife and kids.

    Some perspective here…it’s an AD, not a “public service announcement”.

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  27. David Losh

    RE: ARDELL @ 26

    Does that mean buying a house is the same as being an alchoholic?

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  28. Pegasus

    By ARDELL @ 26:

    RE: Pegasus @ 21

    My point is people have to stop thinking that “a NAR” is some kind of public interest group. They are a trade association supporting a business, the same as any other commercial.

    Liquor ads say Don’t Drink and Drive…Drink Responsibly…but they still advertise their product for business reasons.

    How many people die from a drunk driver every year or liver disease? How many people’s lives are destroyed by alchohol…and the lives of their families? Someone’s still selling liquor and the beer commercials usually make it to the Super Bowl Ads.

    Why is a real estate industry ad worse than a beer commercial? Are the women not hot enough…the ads not cool enough…the copy not funny enough.

    It’s not a news report. It’s a “COMMERCIAL”.

    Maybe we can put a warning label on every house…oh yeah…there’s already piles of disclosures and warnings about what happens if you can’t make the payment when you buy a house or if you don’t thoroughly inspect it before you buy it.

    The day you see a “DON’T BUY BEER!” commercial paid for by a beer company…let me know.

    Given a choice between enticing people to drink alcohol or buy a house…I’d still side with buying the house over drinking yourself into a stupor and killing someone with your car or beating your wife and kids.

    Some perspective here…it’s an AD, not a “public service announcement”.

    What a bunch of baloney..”It’s an AD”.. “it”s a trade group” ……It’s a pack of thieves and you are defending them because you are a direct recipient of their benefits created by promoting falsehoods. You KNOW they have lied and mislead the public for years and you defend them by trying to minimize their promotional impact. Shame on you.

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  29. Jonness

    By ARDELL @ 8:

    When and where will people “learn” that? Not on SB.

    The greater value of SB is, it teaches buyers not to leverage their life savings into a rapidly depreciating asset class amidst a collapsing economy. This way, when that best house in the best neighborhood they can afford is worth $100K less than they paid for it, they can pinch themselves, wake up, and realize it was only a dream. In reality, it’s the NAR’s 2007 clients who took the advice you cited who are $100K + underwater. Meanwhile, the bubblites are flush with cash. :)

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  30. Kary L. Krismer

    By David Losh @ 23:

    RE: Macro Investor @ 22

    The first time I heard that Real Estate doubles in price every ten years was during a conversation with a long, long time Real Estate agent. He said it, and I just looked at him, like he was joking. When he didn’t continue, I said,”Come on, you know that’s not true, Real Estate has always been said to appreciate about 4% per year.”

    He visibly changed when he answered, “you’re right, it keeps pace with inflation.” .

    The difference you state is right there. He was talking nominal and you were talking adjusted for inflation. The thing is though, when you’re leveraged (borrow against the property), it’s the nominal number that matters. When you own free and clear, it’s the adjusted for inflation number that matters. Most people are leveraged, and almost all investors are.

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  31. Jonness

    By ARDELL @ 26:

    Some perspective here…it’s an AD, not a “public service announcement”.

    So “AD = Lie, and we are supposed to not believe anything that comes for the NAR’s mouth or it’s agents. I get that, but most people who buy houses believe they pay Realtors to represent their best interests. Thus, the negativity when they finally discover the truth.

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  32. David Losh

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 30

    Again, you prove my point.

    Property has never, historically, doubled in price, or value over a ten year period.

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  33. ARDELL

    RE: Pegasus @ 28

    Actually I don’t come in contact with them much at all. Nor have I had a client in 21 years who came to me to help them buy or sell a house because they saw a commercial on TV. How sad would THAT be?

    I’ve been a real estate agent since 1990. Never chased after someone to tell them they should buy a house. My clients have always come to me after they have decided to buy a house. Was I a crook when I helped people buy houses from 1990 through 2004? Or did I become a crook in 2005 to 2007? Am i a crook today…or do we have to see if the market goes down before I’m a crook?

    Is it Craig’s fault that The Tim bought a house? Is it the commercial’s fault that Scotsman wants to buy the house he’s renting?

    Get real.

    I remember being in the photo store getting a camera part and the guy behind the counter saying he wanted to buy a condo. I asked why. He said to get the $8,000 credit. I asked if he was thinking of buying a condo before he heard about the credit. He said no. I said would you buy one if there were no $8,000 credit. He said no. I said well then that’s a pretty stupid reason to spend a couple of hundred thousand dollars.

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  34. David Losh

    RE: Jonness @ 29

    You won’t find any information on the internet about Real Estate.

    You’ll find pretty pictures, sales talk, and people telling you what you want to hear. There is no information about Real Estate on any of the web sites I’ve looked at in the past six years.

    This is all a show for your benefit. What you read here is the same, exactly the same, as the NAR ads.

    Buy, buy, buy, or sell, sell sell, without a plan, just ’cause the internet tells me so.

    That’s what you have here. You don’t know anything about Real Estate, Real Estate agents, or buying, or selling property.

    Ardell is one of a very, very few who actually have any experience, that frequents the internet. She does, in her ramblings, provide you with glimpses of the business.

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  35. David Losh

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 30

    you mean these graphs, from the real estate site: http://www.jparsons.net/housingbubble/

    http://investmenttools.com/median_and_average_sales_prices_of_houses_sold_in_the_us.htm

    However the 2007 Schiller paper shows on page 26 that Real Estate never “took off” until 1998.

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  36. Pegasus

    RE: ARDELL @ 33 – The point is you have been defending dishonest and misleading real estate ADs and you directly benefit from those misleading ADs. Now you are switching your tune to deny all that you have already posted. How enterprising! You, David Lereah and Lawrence Yun seem to be about equally unsuccessful in picking bottoms and keeping your stories straight.

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  37. David Losh

    RE: David Losh @ 35

    I forgot the link to the Schiller Report: http://cowles.econ.yale.edu/P/cd/d16a/d1610.pdf

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  38. ARDELL

    David,

    Why are you quoting Case Schiller that houses “didn’t take off” until 1998, when you can pull your own stats that say otherwise? I’m pulling some random recent sales as I type. Looking at homes built in the 70s to pick up earliest recorded sold price that I can access compared to 2011 sold price. Also targeting some split entry homes, as it is easier to see that no one expanded the home since time of construction.

    Pretty sure all of these homes were built in the 70s prior to the earliest sale as shown…so none were vacant lots at those early prices.

    3.75 X 1984 Price
    Bought in 1984 for $169,500; Sold in 2011 for $636,000
    http://www.redfin.com/WA/Mercer-Island/9015-SE-51st-Pl-98040/home/255254

    3X 1978 Price
    Bought in 1978 for $110,000; sold this year for $330,000
    http://www.redfin.com/WA/Federal-Way/3517-SW-318th-Ct-98023/home/354833

    7.31 X 1985 Price
    Bought in 1985 for $99,500; Sold this year for $727,000
    http://www.redfin.com/WA/Medina/2447-80th-Ave-NE-98039/home/250685

    4.75 X 1981 Price
    Bought in 1981 for $91,650; Sold this year for $435,000
    http://www.redfin.com/WA/Redmond/16009-NE-99th-St-98052/home/324995

    6.49 X 1986 price
    Bought in 1986 for $85,500; Sold this year for $555,000
    http://www.redfin.com/WA/Seattle/712-N-70th-St-98103/home/299974

    I know this is the place for haters and making crap up and throwing stones as if it were true. But let’s get real. We plenty of doubled every 10 years without trying hard to find them.

    I even threw in a Federal Way for Kary. :) It didn’t quite make the grade…but 3X 1978 price is nothing to sneeze at. Not quite the 7.31 X 1985 price of Medina…but a respectable increase.

    It helps when you buy in the best location with the best schools…vs “the prettiest house you can find”.

    Plenty of evidence of homes doubling every 10 years or so…close enough…a few a little less, a few way more.

    Let’s not make up crap to complain about.

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  39. ARDELL

    RE: Pegasus @ 36

    Seriously, you are just a hater. There’s plenty of evidence of major appreciation in the last 30 to 40 years in the Seattle Area, as shown in my comment to David. And I wasn’t even looking very hard.

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  40. Toad37

    Question- I told my buddy to stop paying, here is his concern though- He bought a condo on Beacon Hill a few years ago. He owes 350k between the first and the purchase money 2nd heloc. He did refi the first once to lower the rate but still has the original 2nd. In Washington he can walk away and they can only take back the condo, right? It’s only worth 175k now. He’s worried “they” may come after him for 2nd in a foreclosure. Any thoughts out there on this? I told him to live for free for a while and let them take it.

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  41. Pegasus

    By ARDELL @ 39:

    RE: Pegasus @ 36

    Seriously, you are just a hater. There’s plenty of evidence of major appreciation in the last 30 to 40 years in the Seattle Area, as shown in my comment to David. And I wasn’t even looking very hard.

    What does that have to do with defending dishonest and misleading advertising especially when you are a beneficiary of that false advertising? Nothing. And yes I do dislike dishonest people as most people do. Calling people haters is the typical response of someone exposed and cornered with their own words. You have learned nothing from the real estate industry’s failings in the past few years and you appear unwilling to learn anything in the future. Comparing deceitful real estate ads to milk and beef ads is one of the most idiotic things I have seen you do. But hey surprise us. I am sure you will find something even more idiotic to post about.

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  42. Pegasus

    By Toad37 @ 40:

    Question- I told my buddy to stop paying, here is his concern though- He bought a condo on Beacon Hill a few years ago. He owes 350k between the first and the purchase money 2nd heloc. He did refi the first once to lower the rate but still has the original 2nd. In Washington he can walk away and they can only take back the condo, right? It’s only worth 175k now. He’s worried “they” may come after him for 2nd in a foreclosure. Any thoughts out there on this? I told him to live for free for a while and let them take it.

    Stop! You are giving your buddy BAD advice. First, a foreclosure in Washington State by the primary mortgage lender does not remove him from liability on the second mortgage. Second, foreclosures can be long lasting life changing events and you are not qualified to encourage him or give advice to stop making payments. He needs to consult a competent real estate attorney if he can find one and you need to stay out of it. Your buddy is the one left with the long lasting ramifications of foreclosure, not you.

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  43. One Eyed Man

    RE: ARDELL @ 38

    Just to be accurate with the math, IMO double every 10 years is an exponential expression with the number of decades being the exponent. After 30 years, a house would have to be worth 2 X 2 X 2 = 8 times the original sale price. It would appear to me that three of the houses you listed don’t meet that test.

    Furthermore, I would wager that most of those houses you’ve listed as examples have probably had substantial remodeling that would also affect the numbers.

    Finally, picking a few individual cases out of a pool of thousands doesn’t necessarily make for a statistically reliable conclusion. Somebody wins the lottery almost every week, but that doesn’t make a lottery ticket the investment opportunity of a lifetime.

    But from a pragmatic legal standpoint, trying to build a case that NAR is a criminal organization because of some commercials is pretty weak. People may have gotten hurt, but its just not the same as selling tabacco. I don’t think we’ll see all the states go after NAR and the national brokerages to collect damages to fund foreclosure relief. If they want to take a page from the tabacco playbook why don’t they just require that every REALTORS card and standard form purchase agreement carry a product liability warning that says: CAUTION, HIRING A REALTOR MAY BE HAZARDOUS TO YOUR WEATH.

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  44. Kary L. Krismer

    By David Losh @ 32:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 30

    Again, you prove my point.

    Property has never, historically, doubled in price, or value over a ten year period.

    Again you missed the point. Without adjusting for inflation, of course it has. That would only be about an 8% annual increase, and there have been extended periods where there was significant inflation.

    http://seattlebubble.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/kc-home-prices_1946-2007-tn.png

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  45. Kary L. Krismer

    By Toad37 @ 40:

    Question- I told my buddy to stop paying, here is his concern though- He bought a condo on Beacon Hill a few years ago. He owes 350k between the first and the purchase money 2nd heloc. He did refi the first once to lower the rate but still has the original 2nd. In Washington he can walk away and they can only take back the condo, right? It’s only worth 175k now. He’s worried “they” may come after him for 2nd in a foreclosure. Any thoughts out there on this? I told him to live for free for a while and let them take it.

    With friends like you, who needs enemies?

    Your friend needs an attorney to advise him, but from what you wrote you gave him very bad advice. The very fact that you’re talking about “purchase money” shows that you’re basing your advice on things that are irrelevant–things mentioned in newspaper articles that have no application whatsoever in the state of Washington.

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  46. Kary L. Krismer

    By One Eyed Man @ 43:

    Just to be accurate with the math, IMO double every 10 years is an exponential expression with the number of decades being the exponent. After 30 years, a house would have to be worth 2 X 2 X 2 = 8 times the original sale price.

    Good point. Doubling in 10 years is different than doubling every ten years. In dealing with Losh I was just addressing the former.

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  47. David Losh

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 46RE: ARDELL @ 38

    Ardell, that’s ridiculous. You’re taking the end result of the massive appreciation in price since 1998 and trying to make a historical argument out of it.

    And Kary I posted the links to your assertion which actually have the same results.

    We experienced a massive bubble in Real Estate pricing, since 1998, that deflated, or began to, in 2008.

    The fact both of you are defending a sales talk assertion proves to me that the propoganda of the NAR is very powerful.

    You are both on a bubble blog that probably wouldn’t exist if there wasn’t a bubble.

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  48. Kary L. Krismer

    By David Losh @ 47:

    And Kary I posted the links to your assertion which actually have the same results.

    . ..

    The fact both of you are defending a sales talk assertion proves to me that the propoganda of the NAR is very powerful.

    This link you posted shows there are two periods where prices doubled in a 10 year period.

    http://www.jparsons.net/housingbubble/

    That there were periods where the nominal price did double is what I was addressing, not the NAR advertising, which I haven’t even mentioned. The post I responded to was you discussing what someone you met had said, not the NAR advertising comments.

    As to NAR’s advertising, one point I’ve made over and over here is that you can’t predict the future by looking at the past. So I would never support an advertising campaign that encourages people to buy based on past history of price changes.

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  49. Toad37

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 45 – Kary, regardless of if my advice was good or bad (he is going to talk to a RE attorney first and I agreed that was necessary), I just wanted to know if anyone here knew the answer. So, does anyone know?

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  50. David Losh

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 48

    That’s a real estate link that offers the kind of assertion you are making.

    It’s propoganda.

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  51. Toad37

    RE: Pegasus @ 42 – Don’t shoot the messenger… I had a foreclosure 1.5 years ago. I wouldn’t wish that stress on my worst enemy. The fact is, he owes 350k on something worth 175, and it ain’t going back to 350k as it’s in a had area. These are the classic cases where owners are simply deciding to stop paying and let the bank foreclosure. I don’t know for sure, but from what I have seen the first and second gets written off and they do not come after the owner. Has anyone here seen with their own two eyes something different?

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  52. Kary L. Krismer

    RE: Toad37 @ 51 – Read this case:

    http://caselaw.findlaw.com/wa-supreme-court/1249877.html

    Here’s an excerpt which gives a clue as to the result:

    “We reverse the trial judge’s grant of summary judgment and hold, under Washington law, that the ‘foreclosure’ of a senior deed of trust does not extinguish the debt/obligation of any junior lienholder or otherwise preclude an action to recover that debt.”

    Ardell might pop in and point out that there’s an open issue as to where the first and second are the same creditor. That is a valid point, but IMHO the result would be dependent on the first mortgage having a “dragnet” clause, and the application of that clause. Since most of the case law on dragnets is not favorable to them applying, I think that is a longshot argument, but it’s not an impossible argument.

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  53. Toad37

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 52 – thanks Kary.

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  54. ARDELL

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 52

    While that is my belief Kary and Toad, it all hinges on a couple of words in the case involving foreclosing “entity” vs “instrument”. I think the attorneys are correct to counsel on the side of caution. I don’t think there is enough case law to hang your hat on in either case. I say that the emphasis falls on the word entity, at least until there is a case where the 2nd is the same entity who foreclosed on the 1st.

    The basis for the case was that the 2nd complained that the 1st foreclosed and wiped them out. If they were pointing a finger at themselves over there on the 1st, I don’t think the case would have been heard…let alone decided in the same way. Can you even sue yourself for “wiping you out”. Seems ludicrous to me.

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  55. Kary L. Krismer

    By ARDELL @ 54:

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 52 – While that is my belief Kary and Toad, it all hinges on a couple of words in the case involving foreclosing “entity” vs “instrument”. .

    Neither word is involved in the analysis. The applicable language is contained in RCW 61.24.100(1) which provides:

    “(1) Except to the extent permitted in this section for deeds of trust securing commercial loans, a deficiency judgment shall not be obtained on the obligations secured by a deed of trust against any borrower, grantor, or guarantor after a trustee’s sale under that deed of trust.” (Emphasis supplied.)

    Thus the issue is what is secured by “that deed of trust.” The only way a note secured by another deed of trust could also be secured by the deed of trust being foreclosed is if the dragnet clause applies.

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  56. Toad37

    RE: ARDELL @ 54 – I just found out from him that Wells has both mortgages on it, if that information helps.

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  57. ARDELL

    RE: Pegasus @ 41

    I’m not defending them, Pegasus. In fact I am not a “realtor” for those reasons among many…though was for many of my 21 years in the biz. In fact I may go to the NAR Convention this year to visit a lot of my friends from around the Country, as it is in Anaheim this year.

    What I’m saying is that when someone approaches an advertising agency to make a commercial, they are not creating a news report.

    I have corrected many agents in the presence of their clients that say “the value will be x in x years”. I do try to be safely assured that I could go back to my client’s house and sell it if they decided to leave it shortly after they bought it. In other words the price you pay should be equal to what you could sell it for in the very near future. It’s happened a couple of times and I was able to do that.

    But once you get past 12 to 18 months…it’s a whole new ballgame. Knowing where the market is headed is important…in the near term. I just finished a decade of stats and will post my thoughts for Monday…maybe tomorrow night…with my graphs.

    The problem is most people want “a talking point” that helps them feel better about their decision to purchase. But I usually do not help people who want to buy based on an appreciation certainty. There is no certainty in any “market”.

    The only message is it CAN go up or down by the time you sell. That is true of most anything. Heck…they can bring in 12 cats and destroy the value. No certainties in real estate. The highest degree of certainty is if you get it at lot value and can choose the exact day to sell. In residential real estate, that is not the norm. Almost never does someone choose to sell based on the market and value. More often it is a change in their life that causes them to buy and sell.

    The #1 reason not to buy is you don’t love your wife enough. How often does THAT apply? Too often.

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  58. Kary L. Krismer

    RE: Toad37 @ 56 – You would need a lot more information, and in any case I really doubt an attorney would give you a definitive answer because I don’t think there are any cases in Washington on the issue.

    But just to give you an example, a court might be less likely to apply a dragnet clause where you had a first and a second issued at the same time, than if the second was issued later. And if the first was to purchase the property, but the second was to guarantee a debt of a business entity, again the court might be less likely to apply the dragnet clause.

    Keep in mind that many of the past decisions on this issue were by banks trying to enforce dragnet clauses to improve their positions. The courts reacted negatively to that, but those decisions still stand, and the factors they used still stand. Now those same factors work in favor of the banks, so will the courts change the result?

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  59. Toad37

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 58 – I agree that he won’t get a definitive answer from an attorney, just like I didn’t when I was doing my own research. My hunch is he will stop paying soon and when the dust settles, after an eventual foreclosure, is that the first will be written off along with the second.

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  60. Kary L. Krismer

    RE: Toad37 @ 59 – Writing something off is different than the debt going away (being waived or discharged). What is likely on many of these seconds is that they will be sold to collection agencies after a period of time, just as occurs with credit card debt. Remember, they have at least 6 years to try to collect,so they can spend time doing nothing.

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  61. Craig Blackmon

    First let me say its our absolute pleasure to keep SB “on the air” — hey, this site is a fantastic referral source!

    I must say, I come down on Ardell’s side of the issue in regards to advertisements. They are by definition an attempt to influence consumer behavior so as to benefit the advertiser. There was a time in this country — anybody see Mad Men? — when we recognized the advertising industry (formerly known as “Madison Avenue”) for what it is: A shill, not to be trusted and generally disdained. Those days are long gone, and advertising is now just another thread in the fabric of society. But its raison d’etre remains exactly the same. So don’t be surprised when an advertiser spouts nonsense in an attempt to influence consumer behavior — and I don’t think its fair to hold one industry to a standard far above all others in this regard.

    What truly amazes me is how often “Lawrence Yun, NAR economist” is cited as an authoritative source about the state of the housing market (for example: http://www.google.com/search?q=yun+NAR+economist&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1). He’s not an advertisement, he’s a “professional,” yet he is just as much of a shill as the ads featured here. His comments, to me, are the real outrage, or more accurately the constant airing of his views as “authoritative” by the media. Can’t we at some point conclude this guy is full of s**t and stop giving him a platform??

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  62. Toad37

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 60 – True Kary, I could see that happening. The collection agency would likely take as little as 5-10 cents on the dollar. Washington is a non-recourse state, so he may find that works in his favor. He is just nervous that he refinanced.

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  63. Kary L. Krismer

    RE: Toad37 @ 62 – Refinancing is not an issue in Washington, and Washington is not a non-recourse state! Washington is a state where if a creditor elects to foreclose non-judicially, they cannot pursue a deficiency.

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  64. Jonness

    By David Losh @ 34:

    Ardell is one of a very, very few who actually have any experience, that frequents the internet. She does, in her ramblings, provide you with glimpses of the business.

    I understand beginner house buying types need to pay an extra $10K to hear mainstream RE slogans such as, “buy the best house in the best neighborhood you can afford.”

    The better agents obviously have the experience to offer a lot more than this, but not all traditional agents do. Having been through the process numerous times, I have no need for this, and I doubt any seasoned professional would pay 6% to turn a house these days.

    The best agent I’ve come across so far works for Ray Pepper and provides just the right amount of service for the price he charges. He can hold your hand if you want, but he will perform at a much higher value-added level if you’re experienced enough to go there.

    Ardell is an experienced RE professional who is very good at what she does and has a lot of passion for her craft. However, I have no need to contract her services. Others’ mileage probably varies.

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  65. Kary L. Krismer

    By Craig Blackmon @ 61:

    What truly amazes me is how often “Lawrence Yun, NAR economist” is cited as an authoritative source about the state of the housing market

    The press is just happy to have someone talk to them repeatedly. They don’t care whether or not the person knows what they are talking about.

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  66. David Losh

    RE: Jonness @ 64RE: Toad37 @ 59

    This is the problem that I see. A person comes to the internet, a blog, for legal advice, and both kary, and Ardell jump in before asking questions. In answers 58, and 60 Kary gets around to some speculation about what might happen.

    Ray doesn’t have Real Estate agents. Ray’s brokerage is an investor group.

    So you don’t know the difference, but here you are with yet another opinion.

    It’s all propoganda.

    Real Estate agents are working, like crazy trying to keep business together. They aren’t here daily to give out free advice.

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  67. ARDELL

    RE: David Losh @ 66

    You really have a problem with “the internets” don’t you? Some day you will “get it”. There is ZERO difference between talking on the internet and talking in a Real Estate Office. It’s just not “exclusive”. When I stopped talking to agents in offices, I talked here…on the internet. If I were standing in a real estate office, agents would come up to me and ask me all their questions. The brokers would want me to give them “the company line”…that buyers are “fish to be caught” or edged off of some fence. That just doesn’t suit me.

    I don’t spend any more time on that here on blogs and social media than I would if I were sitting in a real estate office somewhere. But then I type really, really fast. :)

    Do you think it is odd when you see an agent talking in their office? The “internet” is no different, David.

    You want to embrace it…and yet you have an aversion to it, all at the same time. It’s interesting to watch you struggle with the concept. I just returned from meeting a client at a house. Sometimes I “talk” from my iPad while Kim is driving to an appointment. Most of my clients read everything I write here and on RCG and most every place. So I am talking to my clients when I am “on the internet”.

    The internet is a way of life. It is not “a thing”. It’s where I talk with my children…and their children…and you…and the kids I went to grade school with and my brother in Ohio…all at the same time. It’s not “a propaganda tool”. You look for it to be that…but you will find that it only appears that way to you because you are looking for it to be that through your own “filter”.

    Very interesting to watch you in this internal struggle over the last many months. I’m wondering if you’ll ever make it out “to the other side”. In the meantime it’s interesting to watch you “think out loud”.

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  68. Kary L. Krismer

    By David Losh @ 66:

    This is the problem that I see. A person comes to the internet, a blog, for legal advice, and both kary, and Ardell jump in before asking questions. In answers 58, and 60 Kary gets around to some speculation about what might happen.

    I purposefully wasn’t asking questions because I don’t want to give the answer to the specific question. For that the person needs to see the real estate (or bankruptcy) attorney, which is what I did suggest.

    In the posts you mentioned, I still didn’t ask questions. In 58 I point out how certain facts could influence (but not dictate) the result. In 60 I point out that having a debt written off doesn’t mean it is no longer owed. Then there’s probably another post out there where I responded to Ardell, rejecting her analysis of how the issue is resolved with a second position creditor.

    But the bottom line is the friend of the poster here needs to see an attorney. There’s no way to go over every fact that might affect the outcome. Just as an example, if the friend was married over three years ago, and after the last refinance, their situation might be entirely different. That’s something for an attorney who represents them to ask questions about, and determine. That can’t be done on an Internet website.

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  69. David Losh

    RE: ARDELL @ 67

    I have no struggle with the internet. We get 100% of our cleaning business from the internet. People read my blogs, go to our web site, and contact us for service.

    We stopped our door to door campaign five years ago, newspaper three years ago, and signs over a year ago. Our business has doubled, and we refer business to other companies.

    Real Estate is a little more complicated than cleaning.

    My intention this year was to launch http://www.BuyingSeattle.com however, I’m really busy. If you Google me you’ll see I put up a half dozen or so Word Press sites this year, and some last year. Some are for businesses I’m probably two years out from starting, but longevity counts a lot on the internet.

    I have no confusions or illusions about the internet process. It is a process.

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  70. ARDELL

    RE: David Losh @ 66

    David, I answered Kary because he mentioned me and my opinion in his answer. I did not respond to Toad at all, as an agent cannot participate in or encourage in any way “strategic defaults”. We are not allowed to tell people to stop making their mortgage payments who can in fact make them. So getting into a discussion about that specific person and question is not permitted for licensed brokers.

    Kary was referencing my opinion re 2nds, that are the same entity as the 1st, which he knows from a previous discussion on a specific court case from many months ago.

    I know Ray tells everyone to stop making their payments, but it was clearly one of the charges against Hellickson that had his license suspended for 10 years. Toad made it clear that the purpose of defaulting was the value of the property vs the circumstances of the borrower. We don’t touch that with a ten foot pole.

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  71. patient

    RE: ARDELL @ 70

    What a wonderful organization it is, it’s encouraged to lie to get people into trouble but punished to advice on how to get out of it. You go Ray, they are all coming back.

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  72. David Losh

    RE: ARDELL @ 70

    It’s an inappropriate discussion. You answering isn’t the issue, the discussion is.

    People need real help today making a purchase that will have legs.

    The problem is they come to forums looking for that information. You’re right there is no information you can give. Each set of circumstances is unique.

    It’s all propoganda. You’re here trying to sell something the same as I am.

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  73. ARDELL

    RE: patient @ 71RE: David Losh @ 72

    LOL! What are you selling, David? I always read Seattle Bubble, especially the comments, as my clients read me and SB. One mentioned some things said here by the regular commenters recently, so I’ve been trying to catch up.

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  74. ARDELL

    RE: patient @ 71

    I believe that was a criminal offense vs an internal rule of our business. Kary may know better than I, but clearly telling people to stop making their mortgage payments was one of the charges. I know Ray does it, and publicly, but Ray is actually in a different line of work. If they took his real estate license away, he wouldn’t be “out of business”.

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  75. Kary L. Krismer

    By ARDELL @ 74:

    RE: patient @ 71

    I believe that was a criminal offense vs an internal rule of our business. Kary may know better than I, but clearly telling people to stop making their mortgage payments was one of the charges. I know Ray does it, and publicly, but Ray is actually in a different line of work. If they took his real estate license away, he wouldn’t be “out of business”.

    Advising people to stop paying their mortgage is the unauthorized practice of law, so technically the prosecutor could bring criminal charges, but it’s likely to be only a licensing violation as a practical matter.

    I’m not sure why you say Ray is different. He is an agent. He’s not an attorney. I think he’s stopped giving his advice, but if taking his license away didn’t stop it, the prosecutor could act. The WSBA has the Law Practices Board, which brings such things to the attention of prosecutors.

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  76. David Losh

    RE: ARDELL @ 73

    Yeah, right, let me write that down.

    Let’s do that again. Like you, I suspect, I get 100% of my business from the internet. My cleaning business is organically on the first page of most any Google search in Seattle for cleaning service.

    My original site was put up in about 2003 for http://www.aspringcleaning.com Any time I needed a change I had to pay some one. The two page site cost me $2K when it first went up, and the guy talked to me like he was doing me a favor. I converted it to Word Press this year, or last.

    A Spring Cleaning has a specialty of preparing properties for sale. This year the season started late, but we did about twenty. In addition eight of our regular cleaning clients sold thier homes.

    Just as an aside, the day after some one was asking about basement flooding we were booked in to clean a house under construction. As it turned out the husband was there working on the basement, putting in a sump pump. I told him he was doing a great job.

    What I would like is to have a forum for property preservation. People are going to need that going forward. It’s a part of the Real Estate business. My oldest blog site is set up for that, and it was also converted to Word Press.

    I look at what Dustin is doing, and Tim, to see what can be done with a site. Right now I’m working on face book. I don’t like Face Book, but I’m getting contacted there.

    I spend between two to four hours every day on the internet. You never really know where your next contact will come from. Today some one contacted me through my Rumblefish Espresso site. We haven’t set up Rumblefish yet, but it’s on my desk here, on my list of things to do. I only have the web sites.

    I’m here selling services. As I told you before we see properties long before an agent does. People contact me about what to do with a property. My thing is that the rush before putting a house on the market is pretty useless. Slow and steady nets more dollars, having a plan nets more dollars.

    Real Estate isn’t something I chose, it’s just what I have always done. It’s like many things that you just fall into, and fall back on.

    The project that I would like to launch in http://www.BuyingSeattle.com is a service to help people buy property well. I actually like Craig’s business model. Shh, don’t tell him, but that’s actually my interest. He charges an up front fee, and $75 per hour. I think that’s a good deal, if people are getting solid information. My price point was $60 per hour, but it works out to the same type of menu of services.

    Like I have also said Michelle Martinue(sp?) tried to sell a menu of services many years ago, it never caught on.

    So that’s what I’m doing. My interest in Buyer Agency is because I have a web site to set up. My interest in preparing properties for sale is because we do a lot of those, I have two web sites for that. I’m interested in business, because I think rents are cheap, and will be getting cheaper.

    It’s all Real Estate.

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  77. David Losh

    You know, now that I think about it, Tim did introduce me to Third Place Books in Lake Forest Park. I had always known it was there, but after the meet up I really started to look at the place. It’s managed by a guy who was a partner in the Honey Bear Bakery that started by Green Lake which is now the home of Tangle Town.

    I am very familiar with that mall, and the dead second story space that haunted it. The partner took over that second story, and made it a great meeting area, with book store, and restuarant spaces. It also is the new home of the Honey Bear bakery. He has done the same with an old PCC in Ravenna, and from what I understand he bought the Cross Roads Mall.

    Another example of well used commercial space is Picolino’s at 65th, and 34th NW in Ballard.

    Real Estate is much greater than selling some one a house. It’s businesses, commercial leases, property management, and preservation.

    As long as we’ve gone this far I’ll say that the Rumble Fish Espresso is the first step in the Rumble Fish Blues Cafe. I want to take over a commercial building. As more properties become more desperate, I think there may be some great deals to be had for long term leases.

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  78. Cher

    Ardell, I think you’re playing devil’s advocate on the wrong topic regarding the NAR. ;)

    It think it’s completely reasonable to expect a higher standard from their advertising propaganda and they should STOP putting ads out there – especially during this economic crisis time. Hello! They are a huge part of the economy crashing down on us. They should be shamed to be trying to continue in the same vein!

    Shelter (housing) is a basic human necessity. As is food, water, breathable air and clothing. Yes, we have advertising for different types of food but that’s because we all have choices on the kind of food we want to eat. Humans really NEED to have a place to live! So yes, I think it’s completely stupid and irresponsible for the NAR to air commercials urging people to spend money that would more wisely NOT be spent (or credit leveraged) on purchasing a home because it’s patriotic to do so.

    I’m fond of analogies. What if a food machine was finally invented. You know – like the kind that they imagined we might have in the future on Star Trek. You tell a machine what kind of food you want to eat and it materializes. This machine will take care of one of the basic human necessities. It costs a lot of money but you won’t have to pay to go grocery shopping or eat out at restaurants anymore. The machines come in a variety of types at different price points but you get what you pay for: You can get a top of the line model for a few million dollars with menu choices from celebrity chefs and the Food Network. You can get a base model for $100,000 that only makes ramen, mac & cheese, chicken nuggets, hot dogs and french fries. If you decide to purchase one, you’re locked into paying for it for 30 years plus interest. They require maintenance and insurance. You have to pay extra to get new recipes. You have to pay for part replacements or repair. New models are always coming out that have better features and are sleeker looking. You may have chosen poorly when you purchased and now it’s worth nothing. You may have chosen well and gotten one of the only models that knows how to make Paula Deen’s authentic southern fried chicken and would have been worth oodles more than you paid for it if only you had kept up with the maintenance.

    What if they made a bunch of unscrupulous advertisements trying to sell these food machines? What if they blatantly said that if you didn’t buy a food machine your family might be at risk of starving? What if they claimed that it would double the amount of food that it makes every 10 years? What if they conveniently never mention the other costs associated with owning the machine or that you run the risk of it failing completely and losing all of your invested money not to mention how are you going to eat when you’re strapped for cash?

    I don’t think you can properly compare a housing commercials to other kinds of commercials because nothing else can compare to being a basic human need. Everybody NEEDS a place to live. You don’t NEED beef or cigarettes or milk or beer or vegetables. Those are all sub-choices. I think the better comparison to your examples Ardell are the commercials for apartment complexes and new home construction developments. Those are generally created with glamor shots and positives about the community intended to make you salivate. They don’t tell you that you’re Unamerican or stupid if you don’t buy their specific branding.

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  79. ARDELL

    RE: Cher @ 78

    Cher,

    Expecting the Realtor Organization to ever support a reduction in home values is just not realistic. It is not Who They ARE any more than the Dairy Association is going to run a commercial about drinking more water than milk or eating more green vegetables than cheese.

    It’s a fact of life that here in the U.S., home ownership is supported by governments. Forget the businesses who make money from home ownership for a second and let’s look at some of the stimulus to buy vs rent.

    1) Mortgage Interest Tax Deduction
    2) FHA government insured loans
    3) VA government guaranteed loans
    4) Tax credits for buying vs renting (sporadically applied)

    The original credo/pledge to be a Realtor was to “uphold the value of real estate”. Not to represent anyONE, but to be a support to the value of land and all that is on IT”. That was their “lofty” goal from its origin.

    We were then told to represent sellers only (I say “we” as at that time I was a Realtor). It was decided that a Realtor’s goals to support home prices were in line with the goals of a seller to get the highest price possible. THAT is how we became the agents for sellers to represent their best interests. ONLY because the government decided that an agent’s goals were in line with that of a seller of a home. We were not asked to go against our nature or our support of home values, as a seller wanted the same. Realtor goals and seller goals were and still are a match.

    The Realtor organization was not founded as an organization to represent the best interest of people…it was founded as an organization with a lofty goal to support and help grow the value of real estate.

    When you think of them as an organization that supports:

    1)The livelihood of its membership.
    2) The best interest of sellers
    3) The value of land and all that is built on it – to support that value – not tear it down

    Then you understand where the commercial is coming from. The organization is over 100 years old and represented only sellers of homes and property values for most all of its history.

    For most of the 100 years the organization was only, ever, expected to support and hold up property values. That the sellers had the same goal was basically coincidence, not the Realtor charge or pledge.

    Then came Buyer Agency. NAR should have just said no and let someone else do that. Representing people who want lowest possible price just did not fit their lofty goal of supporting home values. That is where the train went off the track. There was another Trade Association formed called NAEBA – The National Association of Exclusive Buyer’s Agents. THEIR goal was the opposite of NAR. But they could never get enough power on their own, as buyers wanted houses more than they wanted good representation. So NAEBA got absorbed by NAR…and that should never have happened.

    Expecting an Organization to both support the increase and stability of property values AND the lowest possible price for a buyer of those homes is the #FAIL…not “the commercial”.

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  80. Craig Blackmon

    RE: ARDELL @ 79 – A brilliant synopsis, and I wholeheartedly agree. Another example of how agents are not well suited to represent buyers — you point out brilliantly that its inconsistent with the NAR, yet most people consider synonymous “realtor” and “agent.”

    Ardell, maybe you’re too naive: What if REALTORs have never really given up their allegiance to sellers? What if “buyer’s agency” is all an elaborate charade to further promote home sales? Maybe buyers are still sacrificed for the good of sellers, except now its part of a hidden conspiracy……

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  81. Ira Sacharoff

    RE: Craig Blackmon @ 80
    I think the reason many people consider “agent” synonymous with Realtor is because in most states, all brokerages are affiliated with the Board of Realtors. Washington is an exception. In Washington, some brokerages are affiliated, and some aren’t. If you work for one of the brokerages affiliated with the Realtors, you are required to join, and pay money to them, some of which is undoubtedly used to make these commercials. I’m very happy that I work for a brokerage that is not affiliated with The Realtors. While I know some very honest Realtors, paying money to them to promote this BS doesn’t seem like a particularly wise or ethical use of money, and if I were a Realtor( as opposed to a broker, or agent) I’d be unhappy that my money was being used to peddle untruths.
    For many years, my opinion of real estate agents in general has been pretty low. But I’ve never been too fond of attorneys either.

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  82. ARDELL

    RE: Craig Blackmon @ 80

    Craig has a “hidden conspiracy theory”. LOL! It’s a dichotomy, not a conspiracy. It’s basically a failed directive. A Brokerage is being expected to promise its seller clients Highest Possible Price and then counsel its buyer clients to pay Lowest Possible Price.

    Who came up with THAT and thought it made sense? It’s not a conspiracy, it’s a freaking mess!

    You think you are different, Craig? Don’t you want your seller clients to get the highest possible price? Don’t you want your buyer clients to get the lowest possible price? Are you upholding the value of real estate…or tearing it down? Depends who is in your office at the moment…doesn’t it?

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  83. Ray Pepper

    I’m late to this party but I want to emphasize I NEVER tell people to NOT make payments or make payments on anything. Many of you infer this so let me clarify… I emphasize this:

    1. Take care of yourself and your family the best you can because nobody else will.

    2. If you stop making payments or continue making payments thats YOUR choice.

    3. Some people would have to be outright idiots to continue making payments and some would be idiots to stop.

    Its up to each and every homeowner to decide for themselves but I support either in their decision!

    Also explore short sale, deed-in-lieu, and above all use your BRAIN and COMMONSENSE!

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  84. ARDELL

    RE: Ira Sacharoff @ 81

    Ira, that is not about Washington vs other “States”. The entire State of WA does not have one mls that is not Realtor-based. That is only the description of our local NWMLS, not all mls systems in the state of Washington.

    Any State can have one mls that does not have a Realtor connection. PA has at least one in the State. That decision is made by each mls…not each State.

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  85. Ray Pepper

    RE: Kary L. Krismer @ 75

    Kary, I will NEVER …………EVER stop giving advice no matter what license I hold because I tell the truth and do not participate in FLUFF…

    But, I encourage all you (real estate professionals) to closely look at everything I publicy wrote.

    You will NEVER …….EVER find anything that is against my current licensure….However, I cannot stop people from inferring and speculation..

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  86. ARDELL

    RE: Ray Pepper @ 83

    Ray said: ” I would advise the family stay in the unit for the next 2+ years and save the 2600 a month they would have paid and they should have about 50k in the bank.”

    I guess the words…”don’t pay that $2,600 to your lender” do not appear…but come on. :)

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  87. Ira Sacharoff

    RE: ARDELL @ 84
    The point I was making wasn’t whether belonging to the Realtor Association was determined by the regional MLS’s or the state. The point was that in most places, real estate brokerages don’t have a choice of whether to join the Realtor group or not, it’s a requirement. The Northwest MLS is not one of those places and I’m happy about it, because I’d rather not be contributing to the NAR propaganda. Rather than comment on that, you chose to nitpick.

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  88. ARDELL

    RE: Ira Sacharoff @ 87

    I agree with you Ira. Just disagreeing that “Washington” is the exception. It is NWMLS that is the exception, not the State of Washington. I don’t think there is another mls in the State of Washington that is not Realtor owned. Not nitpicking…just erasing the perception that each State gets to determine that for the entire State.

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  89. Ray Pepper

    RE: ARDELL @ 86

    Ray said: ” I would advise the family stay in the unit for the next 2+ years and save the 2600 a month they would have paid and they should have about 50k in the bank”

    Not knowing anything about this client NOTHING can be determined from this statement other then my advice to SAVE. If homeowners desire to retain their home, and choose to not make their payments (or cannot), they better save each and every dollar. They need to relentlessly apply for ALL Loan Modification and contact all the Federal and State Agencies that exist now for support.

    In addition Short sale and Deed in Lieu may also suit their needs but in the end they should NEVER-EVER leave their home while attempting to save their home. If they cannot make their payments SAVING becomes essential all the money they would have paid the Lender. They will either need this to secure another dwelling for rent, come up with funds for a trial modification if granted, or possibly BUY another home post Trustee Sale. However, CASH is essential more then ever in a deteriorating asset environment.

    Also do NOT ever let anyone tell you that you cannot buy a home Post Trustee Sale. There are MANY WAYS to buy residential real estate and not be a renter. However, CASH becomes essential when a Loan is not easily attained.

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  90. Kary L. Krismer

    By Ira Sacharoff @ 87:

    RE: ARDELL @ 84
    The point I was making wasn’t whether belonging to the Realtor Association was determined by the regional MLS’s or the state. The point was that in most places, real estate brokerages don’t have a choice of whether to join the Realtor group or not, it’s a requirement. The Northwest MLS is not one of those places and I’m happy about it, because I’d rather not be contributing to the NAR propaganda. Rather than comment on that, you chose to nitpick.

    I would distinguish between NAR, WR and SKCAR. While there is no entity of any type that I like everything they do (e.g. AAA, ABA, NRA, ACLU, etc.), I do like most of what WR and SKCAR do. They mainly fight taxes (B&O, excise, etc.) and most point of sale restrictions, subject to some necessary exceptions, like supporting CO detectors. They also fight restrictions on development, and that makes housing cheaper. While NAR fights taxes in that they support the mortgage interest deduction, I don’t believe that is the most of what they do, and this “propaganda” complained of here in fact might be most of what they do, because it’s expensive.

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  91. Craig Blackmon

    RE: ARDELL @ 82
    “You think you are different, Craig?”
    Yup! In fact, I’m not only different, I’m “special”! I know ‘cuz my mom told me. ;-)
    “Don’t you want your seller clients to get the highest possible price?”
    Absolutely.
    “Don’t you want your buyer clients to get the lowest possible price?”
    Absolutely.
    “Are you upholding the value of real estate…or tearing it down?”
    Neither. I am not a REALTOR. While I am a real estate broker, my brokerage supplements my role as an attorney. Accordingly, I am interested only in protecting and advancing the clients’ interests.
    “Depends who is in your office at the moment…doesn’t it?”
    Or, more accurately, the client with whom I am dealing at the moment.

    All joking aside, Ardell, you make a good point and one with which I am currently wrestling. Can ANY brokerage competently represent both sellers AND buyers? For example, I’m working on a blog post noting that, given low mortgage rates into 2013, there is no good basis for claiming that now is generally a “good time to buy.” But do my seller clients want me to say as much? Of course not! They want a salesperson, and a salesperson encourages sales, period.

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  92. Kary L. Krismer

    RE: Craig Blackmon @ 91 – I think it’s very useful to work both sides, because it gives you a better understanding of how everything works.

    Just as an example, back in my bankruptcy attorney days I represented debtors, creditors and bankruptcy trustees. That was somewhat unusual in that many attorneys represented mainly one or another. I once had a creditor case where the debtor was represented by someone who at the time was almost exclusively a creditor attorney. She didn’t understand the process that well from the debtor side, and/or believed her own BS from when she was representing creditors. She eventually gave me literally everything I asked for! I couldn’t have done nearly as well going before the judge.

    I find the same thing true with respect to real estate, but I don’t want to give examples.

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  93. ARDELL

    RE: Craig Blackmon @ 91

    That is absolutely the correct answer to all of those questions, Craig. It is why I am not a “realtor” either.

    But in their defense I have never, ever, seen a “Realtor” commercial about how they are going to get the lowest price possible for a buyer client. So…it does not appear that they make that claim. I don’t watch all of their commercials…but I haven’t seen one touting their skills at getting lowest possible price for a buyer client…or crushing the competition (who is another of their members) when representing a buyer client.

    There is no way to erase the dichotomy of what we do day in and day out. In one townhome complex I helped two sellers get two of the highest prices sold in recent history, and I also helped one buyer client get one of the lowest prices sold in recent history. In the SAME townhome complex, with my seller clients getting $100,000 more than my buyer client paid on another agent’s listing. It’s what we do. We go for highest price when we represent a seller client…and lowest price when we represent a buyer client.

    It’s odd…makes you feel a bit “two-faced”…but there’s no getting around the fact that our job works in opposite direction as to price depending on whether we represent the buyer or the seller. I see no way to change that. Not for us…not for NAR…not for anyone who represents both buyers and sellers of homes on any given Sunday.

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  94. Seattle Bubble • The Tim’s Top Ten of Twenty-Eleven

    [...] Ass. of REALTORS® publishes is comedy gold. I also quite enjoyed their 2011 Voting Guide, and watching their ads over the last five years back to back is a [...]

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  95. Charlottesville People – Do you Care What the National Association of Realtors Say? | | RealCentralVA.comRealCentralVA.com

    [...] Ardell says it extremely well: My point is people have to stop thinking that “a NAR” is some kind of public interest group. They are a trade association supporting a business, the same as any other commercial. [...]

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